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What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?
- Thread starter Silent Runner
- Start date
- Post-1900
So getting back to cringey alt-histories, I've seen a couple over the years that have a General Custer parlay a victory at Little Bighorn into a successful Presidential run. I know he had political ambitions, but this has always seemed a bit of a stretch. 
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
- Location
- Bristol, TN
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What. The. Fuck? I mean, I know he theoretically could have won at Little Big Horn had he not abandoned his gattling guns and light artillery. But it would be a victory by the skin of his teeth, not the sort of crushing victory that typically launches a political career...So getting back to cringey alt-histories, I've seen a couple over the years that have a General Custer parlay a victory at Little Bighorn into a successful Presidential run. I know he had political ambitions, but this has always seemed a bit of a stretch.
- Location
- The Midlands.
Custer was a very talented self-publicist. Far too talented to let mere facts get in the way of crafting a legend.
Z-Cosmonaut
Self-Requested Ban
People here would really cringe at the alternate history of the Kerberos Saga (you'd probably recognize what is perhaps it's most famous work in the West, Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade).
But, essentially, the way that the franchise justifies its existence (being that it takes place in a Japan that was occupied by Germany) is as the follows
Despite the wild premise, it seems to be quality.(I wouldn't know how the rest of it is as I've only watched the anime movie, though I've seen some of the creator's other works, and I've enjoyed them pretty well. So, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to assume that the rest is pretty good.)
But, essentially, the way that the franchise justifies its existence (being that it takes place in a Japan that was occupied by Germany) is as the follows
I should also mention that other alterations were the United States never entering the war, and the invention of the franchise's famous armor which were deployed in the Easter Front.
Despite the wild premise, it seems to be quality.(I wouldn't know how the rest of it is as I've only watched the anime movie, though I've seen some of the creator's other works, and I've enjoyed them pretty well. So, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to assume that the rest is pretty good.)
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SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
- Location
- Bristol, TN
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Silly me. I forgot who we were talking about
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
Custer... a proto-MacArthur?
Sulemain
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't know if I should be impressed or horrified with the concept.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Perhaps though McArthur was almost certainly a vastly more competent general in spite of his flaws and I don't recall McArthur using his men to steal a 10,000 Dollar horse(several hundred thousands dollars in today's money) for his own benefit even riding it in the Grand Victory Parade where it bolted and defying orders in order to keep the stolen horse in spite of directly ordered by general Grant himself to return the horse.
Then there was the time that Custer was arrested and held in Fort Leavenworth before there was even a military prison there for going AWOL only to be saved by General Sheridan who wanted him for one of his winter campaigns during the Indian wars so got him out of his year long suspension.
Custer apparently had the devils luck before it finally ran out.
Then there was the time that Custer was arrested and held in Fort Leavenworth before there was even a military prison there for going AWOL only to be saved by General Sheridan who wanted him for one of his winter campaigns during the Indian wars so got him out of his year long suspension.
Custer apparently had the devils luck before it finally ran out.
- Location
- East Coast
Everybody knows about Tippecanoe, the victory that made William Henry Harrison a major political figure, and that became part of a political slogan that the Democrats tried to counter with "Rumpsey dumpsey, rumpsey dumpsey, Johnson killed Tecumseh!"
What they don't know is that Tippecanoe was a complete farce that accomplished little and in fact strengthened Tecumseh's resolve, leading to his decisive role in the early part of the War of 1812.
Because Harrison made damn sure that he went down as the guy who "won" Tippecanoe.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Tippecanoe was basically Harrison forces successfully defending against a surprise attack after agreeing to meet for negations then retaliating by burning down Prophettown.
It did demoralize native tribes at the time though and led to a number of them abandoning Tecumseh's confederation as well as causing Tenswakawa to withdraw to Canada in disgrace only for the brothers fortunes to turn turn when the New Madrid earthquakes that shook the Midwest and south in 1811 and 1812 were taken as a sign that Tenskwatawa's visions would be coming true which improved his and Tecumseh's standing and leading to a strengthening of Tecumseh's confederation as tribes flocked to their banner again.
It did demoralize native tribes at the time though and led to a number of them abandoning Tecumseh's confederation as well as causing Tenswakawa to withdraw to Canada in disgrace only for the brothers fortunes to turn turn when the New Madrid earthquakes that shook the Midwest and south in 1811 and 1812 were taken as a sign that Tenskwatawa's visions would be coming true which improved his and Tecumseh's standing and leading to a strengthening of Tecumseh's confederation as tribes flocked to their banner again.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
- Location
- Bristol, TN
- Pronouns
- He/Him
IIRC, didn't Harrison take very few casualties at Tippecanoe? Custer, even if he won at Little Big Horn, would probably lose upwards of 75% of his command. The casualty report alone will show how close he came to defeat.
There's also the fact that, at Tippecanoe, Harrison accomplished his mission. He broke Tecumseh's confederation. While we know he only broke it temporarily, contemporary opinion held that he ended Tecumseh's threat. Custer, even if he wins, won't be seen as ending the threat. He'll be seen as having won a battle, not the war.
There's also the fact that, at Tippecanoe, Harrison accomplished his mission. He broke Tecumseh's confederation. While we know he only broke it temporarily, contemporary opinion held that he ended Tecumseh's threat. Custer, even if he wins, won't be seen as ending the threat. He'll be seen as having won a battle, not the war.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
In fairness to General Harrison, it's not like he could have seen the giant earthquake coming.
Indicus
<insert title here>
- Location
- TORONTVM, ONTARIVM INFERIOR, IMPERIVM ROMANVM
That's also McClellan, what with how people like 67th Tigers treat him like a god of war.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh... George McClellan, the one whose greatest battlefield achievement was stalemating Robert E. Lee at Antietam after receiving a full copy of his battle plans?
Captain Orsai
Davion Heavy Guards Captain
Uh, wow. I mean, McClellan did have some virtues as an officer and a commander of armies, which puts him one up on a number of the dullards who've been placed in command throughout history; but as a field commander, he can only be regarded as one of the biggest assets the Confederacy ever had.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
George McClellan, aka young napoleon as his nickname went, I will give him credit that he that he created a extremely well-trained and organized army that other generals would take to victory, was extremely popular with his men and made Washington DC pretty much nigh impregnable fortress.
His efforts on the battlefield however were extremely lackluster and his grand plans for defeating the confederacy well lets say say he felt Scott's Anaconda plan was a waste and that all that was needed to beat the south was a few Napoleonic victories over the southern army and they would surely fall over to surrender if only the confederate forces didn't massively outnumber his own army as according to the intelligence the confederates were feeding him.
His efforts on the battlefield however were extremely lackluster and his grand plans for defeating the confederacy well lets say say he felt Scott's Anaconda plan was a waste and that all that was needed to beat the south was a few Napoleonic victories over the southern army and they would surely fall over to surrender if only the confederate forces didn't massively outnumber his own army as according to the intelligence the confederates were feeding him.
- Location
- Rex, NC, USA
You don't understand-they're praising McLellan because he was a sub-par general. In case you haven't noticed, the same AH.com users who sing McClellan's praises also like to talk about how awesome the British Empire was and how the United States was wrong for pressuring Britain to decolonize. For these people, a world where the US is divided and unable to challenge Britain's benevolent, totally not exploitative colonial empire is a dream scenario. Therefore, a general who loses the American Civil War is better than one who wins it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean, McClellan certainly did have charisma; they were entirely unironically calling him the Young Napoleon in real life until he demonstrated his manifest inability to win a battle.
Imagine an exercise from Star Trek or something, where you take a great military commander, call him General Badass, and have a transporter accident in which he gets turned into two duplicates.
One of the duplicates has all of General Badass' strategic grasp of how to bring harm to the enemy. All his grit, determination, ability to just say "fuckit" and power through a bad situation to victory, and cynical knack for knowing when the enemy is tricking him. All the aggressive, fighty elements that make a good general.
The other has all the organizational ability and leadership skills of General Badass. All the management, all the ability to convince politicians to help him supply his army, all the ability to reorganize the army into a fighting force even when it was ineffectual in the past, all the long range planning. The cost is that he has none of the first set of qualities; those are all off with the duplicate.
That second guy? That's George McClellan.
The man was one half of one of the greatest generals America ever had; the pity is that we never found the other half.
- Location
- East Coast
You don't understand-they're praising McLellan because he was a sub-par general. In case you haven't noticed, the same AH.com users who sing McClellan's praises also like to talk about how awesome the British Empire was and how the United States was wrong for pressuring Britain to decolonize. For these people, a world where the US is divided and unable to challenge Britain's benevolent, totally not exploitative colonial empire is a dream scenario. Therefore, a general who loses the American Civil War is better than one who wins it.
Pretty much. There are arguably more "the British Empire spank" posters of lengthy CSA victory TLs than there are "Sweet Home Alabama" types.
Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
- Location
- Land of Do As You Please
- Pronouns
- They/Him
IMO the thing that puts McClellan firmly in the "Fuck that guy" camp of historical figures isn't that he was gun shy and couldn't follow through to finish the Confederacy off quickly, thus prolonging the war (though that's, uh, pretty fucking bad). What really puts him over the top is his completely and total lack of self awareness. We're talking about a man who was not only famously, obviously, not up for the task of battlefield command, but also repeatedly insisted that actually he's the Galaxy Brained Super General and everyone else is a moron. Like, Hooker fucked up at Chancellorsville, but he admitted he fucked up and didn't fight Lincoln when he removed him from command.
Meanwhile, McClellan told anyone that would listen that he thought Lincoln was fucking things up, that it was a enormous mistake to remove him from command, and then followed it all up with a vanity campaign for President that if it was successful could very easily have resulted in the successful secession of the Confederacy.
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- Location
- Somewhere
As I recall he called Lincoln "a well meaning baboon"
- Pronouns
- He/Him
From what I understand McClellan was an example of the "A Father to his men" trope taken to an unhealth degree. Since he was so protective of his soldiers it made him way to overcautious. Where as Grant was willing to spend soldiers like currency if it got him the victories he needed.