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What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

Terra Allias said:
How do you guys feel about isekaid into Hitler stories? Right now I'm in an argument over that scenario, am I being obtuse over saying it's ones moral imperative to burn it to the ground as fast as possible?
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IMO it depends how it's written. If its written in any sort of semi-realistic sense, then depending how "deep" the isekai'd person starts they have less chance to just "burn it to the ground" and should focus more on damage migitation. It's very different if one is isekaid as Hitler in 1938, for exsample, than in 1944. By 1944 it's kinda too late to just "burn it all down" as by then system has replacement ready to keep the genocide machine going. Only realistic point to stop the genocide machine is before it truly starts to run.
 
Any time after Hitler takes power is cooked. By 1938, the Nuremberg Race Laws had already been in place for about 3 years. Post-1923, Hitler already has a well-established reputation as a violent far-right ultranationalist.

The only hope for a Hitler SI is right after the end of WWI, as in the day or week immediately after Nov 11, 1918.
 
Admiral Halsey said:
Admittedly I'm probably not selling it well but honestly it's a good read just for the Thule Society stuff alone. Mainly because it takes a while for him to actually change the Thule Society so you spend a bit getting some interesting insight into how this group would eventually gestate into the Nazis even if the whole time Notler is trying to sway their racial views.
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I think the connection between Hitler and the Thule Society is greatly exaggerated. Hitler was "simple-minded" and illiterate. He had little interest in history - either real or romanticized pseudo-history. The main proponent of occultism and mysticism was Heinrich Himmler. The most intellectually rich was Goebbels.
 
Is declaring Oster my designated successor before gathering a meeting with as many high ranking NSDAP politicians and generals as possible while strapped with a suicide vest possible?
 
King Washington said:
Is declaring Oster my designated successor before gathering a meeting with as many high ranking NSDAP politicians and generals as possible while strapped with a suicide vest possible?
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It's alright, I guess. That would still probably mean a civil war between the SS and Wehrmacht depending on the time, or the imposition of what would probably be a right-wing military dictatorship.
 
Comrade Future said:
I think the connection between Hitler and the Thule Society is greatly exaggerated. Hitler was "simple-minded" and illiterate. He had little interest in history - either real or romanticized pseudo-history. The main proponent of occultism and mysticism was Heinrich Himmler. The most intellectually rich was Goebbels.
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I mean yeah IRL he wasn't that involved to the point we don't think he ever actually went to a meeting. However getting him involved in the society was important to the TL because of how many important Nazi individuals were involved in it.
 
I have to wonder how much of the Nazi occult stuff, aside from Himmler's own bullshit obviously, came at least in part from the former Generals rhetorically tossing everything at the wall to see what stuck re 'that was totally those wacky evil Nazis, not us refined professional Junker Wehrmacht guys' by adding some implied devil worship ( in the eyes of 50's Americans) to the occasion?
 
I mean, the involvement of Himmler and some other inner circle Nazis is fact. It may have had no effect on the war or German society one war or the other, but it is fact. And then I guess everyone focused on that because Nazis + occult just sounds intriguing / makes for a good story?
 
king of hybrids said:
I have to wonder how much of the Nazi occult stuff, aside from Himmler's own bullshit obviously, came at least in part from the former Generals rhetorically tossing everything at the wall to see what stuck re 'that was totally those wacky evil Nazis, not us refined professional Junker Wehrmacht guys' by adding some implied devil worship ( in the eyes of 50's Americans) to the occasion?
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Völkische existed before, and was noticeable - although not too much. Nevertheless, among its supporters were representatives of the highest generals - for example, Erich von Ludendorff. Not to mention all sorts of philosophers and authors. In general, unfortunately, this is the ugly side of German Romanticism (which I like).
As far as I know, Nazi mysticism did not really manifest itself in the pop culture of the fifties, and even Nazi superscience was not common (although it was often fashionable to encounter it in comics of the forties). In my opinion, Nazi mystics firmly entered into circulation already under Steven Spielberg with his Indiana Jones. Seriously - I've watched dozens of adventures, spy thrillers, and science fiction from the 50s and 60s. There are no Nazis there - the only places where they appear are in films about World War II. Okay - even in the Soviet Union they sometimes made films where Soviet operatives tracked down fleeing Nazis, and in crime films characters who were collaborators could slip in - but there was no kitsch in this.
 
Reading through some discussions about the ramifications of no World Wars and... I'm kind of confused about the assumption of some that social attitudes and civil rights and such will just stay stuck permanently in the early 20th century forever.

Like, why?
 
King Washington said:
Reading through some discussions about the ramifications of no World Wars and... I'm kind of confused about the assumption of some that social attitudes and civil rights and such will just stay stuck permanently in the early 20th century forever.

Like, why?
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I think a lot of people think that if lines on the map don't move then the people inside them don't change. Culture is always harder to display as an image and we also have baked in assumptions about, say, the Victorian era that are evoked by a Germany with it's Wilhelmine borders that are easy to go unexamined.
 
Honestly in a no world wars and cold war world I can easily see it being both more liberal and conservative. For example I think here in the US for example labor rights would be stronger IMO while civil rights would likely take until the Internet went mainstream.
 
I'd expect that there would be some areas of social life that would be more similar to the pre-WWI status quo or moving more slowly from where they were circa 01/01/1914 to where they are now e.g. religiosity v secularism, class stratification in places in the absence of the absence of the effective extermination of alot of german/french/british/beligan/etc aristocracy and gentry in the officer corps and the post-war debts/taxes finishing off alot of the aristocracy's combined wealth (it's still there, obviously, but the difference in pull between a british lord in 1914 and 2014 for example is still noticeable)

Monarchy probably remains an actual thing in Europe for alot longer? The Romanovs probably wouldn't/won't fall in 1917, but their looming succession crisis would probably be the revolutionaries' opportunity.

There is however the downside that the already disastrous gap between the tactics/experience of military leaders and the technology at their disposal will only grow more horrifically vast. And once an actual war (as opposed to butchery of oppressed peoples in the colonies) between peer opponenets starts...
 
Women's rights would probably take a lot longer to get to where it was in the last third of the 20th century as well, because it's a lot harder to argue that women are less capable of certain things when there's empirical evidence to the contrary because they've had to step in while the men are being sent off to fight a war, many of whom will not return or come back missing several significant bits.
 
As I recall Australia, New Zealand, Finland, Norway before the historical start of World War I and during World War I neutral Denmark and Netherlands also extended the right to vote, and 6 US states and one territory had extended the right to vote before the US entered world war I.

These were often results of very long running suffrage campaigns which I image would be still ongoing world wars or no world wars.

The lack of world wars might affect things like US Probation though given as I recall part of the justification to sell it was to 'protect' the country boys drafted as solders from the evils of the city including alcohol never mind that many of the 'boys' they were talking about were likely grew up making a wide variety of different types of alcohol.
 
I'm not sure you can even link a world without the World Wars to there not being any kind of societal change, in fact societal changes might even bring about war or turmoil on it's own.
 
That is the thing, even without crises and wars societies and cultures are not static, they are always undergoing changes and variations even if those changes don't always seem dramatic.
 
I don't think anyone was saying there'd be total stagnation or anything, just that a long period of relative peace and stability tends to work against anyone looking to implement radical societal change. For better or for worse.
 
My favorite part is when they pinged two people who are apparently white guys living in Africa and asked them what it was like to be genocided.

Map Thread XXII

What if England was never formed? In this timeline, The Angles and Saxons of the British Isles never merge together. Thus, England as a unified nation-state never comes into fruition. As the Norman Invasion of England likely wouldn't happen. Angland retains a more Germanic culture and language...
www.alternatehistory.com
The lore here is that under the reign of Emperor Lizong, a group of Traders discover Africa (I know that they knew of it, I mean in the maritime sense!) and are given permission to set up a trading port. The trading port brings in plenty of riches in forms of Ivory and Gold. Plenty of people rush to the land, they call Daxibu and within time it becomes quite populous due to the people making the trek. Eventually the Song collapse after Lizong, and the traders take over formally and declare a Republic.

Yada yada begins trade with the middle east and Europe yada yada survives for a bit of time before it falls into decline with the discovery of the Americas... yada yada collapses and gets gobbled in the rush for Africa. eventually WW2 rolls around and the British gobble up the German colony. Yippe, and then unlike every other post colonial nation in africa they don't go genociding the whites or each other and everyone lives in peace and harmony. The end.
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Terra Allias said:
My favorite part is when they pinged two people who are apparently white guys living in Africa and asked them what it was like to be genocided.

Map Thread XXII

What if England was never formed? In this timeline, The Angles and Saxons of the British Isles never merge together. Thus, England as a unified nation-state never comes into fruition. As the Norman Invasion of England likely wouldn't happen. Angland retains a more Germanic culture and language...
www.alternatehistory.com
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To be fair, that was a sarcastic response by a third party, and one of them did actually join in to poke fun at the idea of a "white genocide" in Africa.
 
I'm asking this here in the cringe AH thread, because I suspect if I ask google or one of the alternate history sites I will get answers that are, at best, somewhat NazBol instead of merely cringe (and frankly I doubt I want that on my search history for such a trivial passing pondering):

With the caveat that it's effects are likely somewhat dramatically over-exaggerated in the west vs just the changing socioeconomic and living conditions in China; are there any non-cringe timelines where China doesn't implement a one child policy?
 
king of hybrids said:
I'm asking this here in the cringe AH thread, because I suspect if I ask google or one of the alternate history sites I will get answers that are, at best, somewhat NazBol instead of merely cringe (and frankly I doubt I want that on my search history for such a trivial passing pondering):

With the caveat that it's effects are likely somewhat dramatically over-exaggerated in the west vs just the changing socioeconomic and living conditions in China; are there any non-cringe timelines where China doesn't implement a one child policy?
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Gosh, I think the problem is that the only reason to do a timeline which emphasises the absence of the one child policy is if you're going to overstate the effects - e.g. some sort of "China stays Maoist/impoverished China" story. People have tried that with say the Gang of Four controlling China after Mao dies, but those efforts tend to die quickly because lack of change is not necessarily an interesting topic.

The absence of the One Child Policyis a general background detail in a lot of "Kuomintang won" timelines like 沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story that give a slightly higher population number, but that's probably not what you're looking for. I imagine you want a world with a People's Republic where Deng doesn't introduce the One Child Policy.

In general there just aren't a lot of positive timelines focused on the PRC in English as most of the people who write alternate history either think that the communists shouldn't have won, or are part of the smaller group that think a different groups of communists should have won - there's one such timeline, World of the United Front Continued - A graphics TL of China and the world I'm very fond of but the in-universe politics are too different for the OCP to even be a consideration. Very few people have an interest in writing a timeline where the PRC as founded by Mao succeeds in controlling most/all of China but went down a different path after that. You'd have to simultaneously be fond of modern China a fair bit while also acknowledging it's flaws, and while that's a reasonably common perspective within China, it's unpopular in the anglosphere.

I tried my hand at writing a post-Mao PRC POD but I found it pretty overwhelming - I hope to revisit the idea one day and if I do I don't think the one child policy will happen.
 
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