What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

You're avoiding the question. If you grade on a curve then in moral relativeness, why are the Soviets "very dark grey" compared to the Western Allies? Why are the Western Allies "light grey" for fighting the Axis, but the Soviet Union is "very dark grey" for fighting the Axis?
Generally the Soviet military did not treat civilians and or non combatants with the same respect Western forces did. Additionally the Soviet Union installed a series of puppet governments in Eastern Europe after the war having de facto conquered what were independent states Pre War.
 
Initially had a whole bit written explain some shit about my thought process but decided against posting it beyond the the bit in the spoiler below. Anyway look I've been reading up Axis war crimes the whole day and you know what? I realized calling them the moral equivalent of the infinite black abyss of a black hole so dark it hurts to look at was being way too nice to them. So yeah despite all the crap the Soviets did during the interwar, the 39-41 period and their "liberation" of Eastern Europe they weren't "dark grey" in comparison to the Axis. So I'm dropping them down to "grey grey" here. I'm still keeping the Wallies "light grey" because of how fucking far right the moral overton window gets shifted when one side contains Imperial Japan and the Nazis.

Beyond that I'm done with the argument for two reasons. One is that I'm just tired of it and want to get back to talking about cringeworthy AH and two is that I don't want the mods to come down and bonk us because we're not talking about cringeworthy AH or stuff related to it.



Imagine someone who killed a person on accident.* Now imagine a second person that did just commit a straight up murder but in the process killed several other people. Now place them on an overton window scale in how bad you think the crimes they commited are. Now imagine a third person, this person is the most vile serial killer in history. Not necessarily the one who killed the most but the one whose actions are universally considered to have been beyond the pale with no redeeming qualities. Now keeping the same overton window scale I asked you to imagine earlier put this person on the scale and realize how much lighter the crimes of the previous two now look in comparison. In this scenario the Wallies are the accidental killer, the Soviets the one commited a murder and accidently killed several others while the Japanese and Nazi's are the third person.

*Please note I know the awful shit the Wallies did was mostly on purpose. However I'm just trying to use an example that makes the easiest sense to someone else.
 
I think its interesting how memory-holed the crimes of Imperial Japan are in modern America.

The Rape of Nanking was extremely well-documented at the time by westerners but how many Americans know about Japanese conduct in China today compared to the Shoah? Its especially bizarre given Americans were among those murdered, enslaved, tortured, and so on.

I blame movies. Nazis make better bad guys, better uniforms.
 
I would second the suggestion of moving the thread away from the topic of Genocide and the comparison of relative levels of horror? @Admiral Halsey had some very good points in their above post on this going in some twisted directions and verging on violating the spirit of the forum.

We had some interesting discussion going on in regards to cringeworthy takes on Star Trek Alternate history in the previous thread. Anyone interested in sharing their perspective on the topic?

Something I would like to share is this Star Trek Enterprise Ferengi SI fanfic by theirishdreamer. It has as a relatively minor subplot the SI and later a timewarped Defiant encountering the Bajor of the Enterprise Era only to be deeply disturbed at it being an authoritarian theocracy that has strict caste divisions and harsh punishments for any "heresy". This is based on the DS9 canon which alluded to them having such a society in several episodes and indicated that they only changed due to the Cardassian Invasion.

There is a cringeworthy implication here that it was only a foreign invasion and occupation that made the Bajorans develop a society that meets our moral standards.

forums.spacebattles.com

Capitalism Ho! One Shard's fun times at trading, war, and not-war! (Star Trek SI(D&D) SI) (ST;ENT Era)

This would be a Self-Insert (based on my Shard series) into the Star Trek: Enterprise verse. Can the power of friendship, pragmatism, and war help the misogynistic, cowardly, and greedy species he was born on their journey into the stars? Will the question 'Are we the Baddies?' be asked...
 
I blame movies. Nazis make better bad guys, better uniforms.

My supremely uneducated guess:

That: And it's probably alot easier to sell movies in Europe without pointing out that the British, French and Dutch were brutally occupying vast swaths of Asia before and after the war; the Chinese and Korean markets likely have no appetite for Americans making films about what the Japanese did to them; and Americans sure don't like being reminded of what they did to Japanese-Americans or the whole 'colonizing the Philippines' issue, plus the turn against the A-Bombs being justified in any way.
 
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Man - there are plenty of topics and personalities in the Philippines that can fit in a Taiga drama format. They just can't do it because it will mean acknowledging their colonial past, and viewing the people of the colonial period and the revolution through lenses other than hagiographic and moralistic ones - natives and peninsulars alike - will likewise undermine the nationalist and hero-centric mythos that this country has built upon ever since.
That: And it's probably alot easier to sell movies in Europe without pointing out that the British, French and Dutch were brutally occupying vast swaths of Asia before and after the war; the Chinese and Korean markets likely have no appetite for Americans making films about what the Japanese did to them; and Americans sure don't like being reminded of what they did to Japanese-Americans or the whole 'colonizing the Philippines' issue, plus the turn against the A-Bombs being justified in any way.
Western historical productions really pale in comparison to most Taiga dramas that the Japanese are producing each and every year since 1963. I believe their rather storied history of violence against each other have led them to become rather earnest about their (pre-modern) history - though of course, they'll still steer clear from their WW2 atrocities at that.
 
Western historical productions really pale in comparison to most Taiga dramas that the Japanese are producing each and every year since 1963. I believe their rather storied history of violence against each other have led them to become rather earnest about their (pre-modern) history - though of course, they'll still steer clear from their WW2 atrocities at that.
Here's a nuance - it seems to me that this kind of frankness can serve not only as criticism or a call for rethinking, but also as a factor of normalization. "Taiga-dorama" really likes to put characters with ambiguous reputations in the spotlight, but the directors still like to hint at who is more positive and who is less. It's normal to see a scene where a character beats up a servant with the words "How dare you come here, stupid monkey!", and in the next one talks about obviously useful reforms.

Japanese viewers expect violence and treachery in their films as part of the era, but still perceive the figures of that era as heroes.

A funny fact about the historical perception of the Japanese. One Russian-speaking professor told his Japanese colleague some conspiracy theories about the Minamoto house, and in response he heard - "Half of us are for the Taira, half for the Minamoto. Why are you talking about the Minamoto when I am a follower of the Taira house?"
 
Speaking of Japan, I actually used to like the TL when I was a SocDem but the more I think about As One Star Sets Another Rises, the more it makes me kind of cringe. It's a TL on AH.com featuring a 2015 Japan being ISOT'd to 1939.

The cringe part is that it puts LDP-led Japan as the main protagonist and has modern Japan take control of all its Imperial Japanese territories except for the ones in China and Korea (this is largely portrayed as a positive development). Japan does such a great job that the TL even says that the country under Shinzo Abe as a war time leader (really funny when you consider what happened to him IRL) basically reinvigorates the LDP as the natural governing party of Japan at the expense of virtually all other parties.

It also features the British Empire surviving as a result of WW2 ending much sooner and maintaining their hegemony over much of the world by allowing its Asian and African colonies to become dominions that still have significant economic and military ties to Britain. Oh, and it also prevents the rise of any Labour government in the UK, as the country also becomes a de facto party state under Churchill's Conservative Party.

Mussolini also gets brought onboard as an ally against Nazi Germany and remains in power in Italy. Hitler himself gets done in fairly quickly and it's really the Soviet Union who are the big villains of the TL. Afterwards, Imperial Germany under the Hohenzollerns is restored by the allies as monarchy is seen as the only form of government Germans will accept as an alternative to Fascism.
 
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You'll have to elaborate.
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The East is Red: A Reds! 1853 ISOT Modern - Post-1900

A spectre is haunting the World — the spectre of communism. The Long Detente has ended, giving way to a period of increased hostility as the Comintern and the AFS prepare to come to blows in the final battle between the forces of capital and the workers of the world. In this crucial moment...
The timeline where they just kill a few guys for the crime of acting like assholes
 
It probably speaks to a sign of me being terminally online or my centrism collapsing under itself into nihilism; or perhaps just that I'm in a foul mood due to a particularly unpleasant cold atm; but I must admit I'm morbidly curious what a, likely cringe, "Europe gets what it's had coming to it" TL looks like.

And I don't mean a set of internal revolutions.
 
It probably speaks to a sign of me being terminally online or my centrism collapsing under itself into nihilism; or perhaps just that I'm in a foul mood due to a particularly unpleasant cold atm; but I must admit I'm morbidly curious what a, likely cringe, "Europe gets what it's had coming to it" TL looks like.

And I don't mean a set of internal revolutions.

So Sunset Invasion, or the old EU III Miscmods where Europe gets wiped out by plagues as others start to colonize the coast?
 
I was thinking somewhere between "FDR knifes the Western Europeans Allies, the US seizes all the colonies as part of decolonization in favor of capitalism and reduces Western European independence to the same level as the Warsaw Pact nations have as part of the cold war" to "Joint Dictatorship of the proletariat of oppressed nations* being installed over everything from the Urals to Iceland and from the Arctic Circle to Gibraltar/Malta/Anatolia"

Or just the joke from earlier in the thread of Sherman somehow depopulating Europe instead of American Georgia

*mostly because I haven't found a decent explanation online for what that entails
 
FDR knifes the Western Europeans Allies, the US seizes all the colonies as part of decolonization in favor of capitalism and reduces Western European independence to the same level as the Warsaw Pact nations have as part of the cold war" to "Joint Dictatorship of the proletariat of oppressed nations* being installed over everything from the Urals to Iceland and from the Arctic Circle to Gibraltar/Malta/Anatolia"
Meanwhile a China that's about to do better than OTL snatches up all the European colonies the Japanese took. None of this French Indochina shit.

*I know they hate each other I'm being reductive
 
Japanese viewers expect violence and treachery in their films as part of the era, but still perceive the figures of that era as heroes.
Beyond those dramas still having editorial stances over its protagonists and other characters, which — overall — normalises hierarchy and abuse, at least they still do leave for the audience to think for themselves in ruminating about the deeds of those historical figures. Your average salaryman may just see this as an affirmation that they had it good enough in the skulduggery of their work — but what about the members and voters of the Japanese Communist Party? Obviously — they'll have other ideas at that.

Besides — there are also clear signals of the villainy of some of the protagonists (like that one laugh of Tokugawa Ieyasu in the Battle of Sekigahara), so it's not as if they're being totally hagiographic about those either.

And pretty much everyone still agrees that Ashikaga Takauji is traitorous even if he's rehabilitated to some degree by the 1991 Taiga about him; the incomprehensible motivations behind some of his decisions don't really help his case at that.

Perhaps, I'm just really sick of the hagiographic BS that both Philippine soap operas and historiography respectively serve on terrestrial television and literature, though this thing you've said on that format normalising hierarchy and violence did give some food for thought for me, I admit —

It's better that people are intimately aware of such ugliness and how it works — it'll make them less clumsy and more efficient by the time they do want to change something in their world.
 
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Perhaps, I'm just really sick of the hagiographic BS that both Philippine soap operas and historiography respectively serve on terrestrial television and literature, though this thing you've said on that format normalising hierarchy and violence did give some food for thought for me, I admit —

It's better that people are intimately aware of such ugliness and how it works — it'll make them less clumsy and more efficient by the time they do want to change something in their world.
I honestly have a different approach. People need heroes - not to do all the work for them, but to show them how to do it. If we just show cruelty and moral ugliness, then we will only help to corrode the hope for a Bright Future with a pile of lies, senseless cruelty, and fear. All this makes people indifferent to everything, turns them into lazy cynics. Of course, working with historical material (especially with real historical figures) requires more delicacy. But we don't need another "Game of Thrones." Perhaps this is just the retrograde from Europe speaking in me, tired of the cynicism that surrounds us both inside and outside.
 
I do think two things also contributed to Japanese war crimes not being as known in the US. One is due to the lack of the war crimes being prosecuted compared to the Nazis. Two is the destruction of Japanese records compared to the Nazis which I arguably think is the more impactful of the two. A major part of the reason we know so much about the horrors of the Nazi's isn't just through eyewitness and survivors but the fact the Nazis meticulously kept track of every detail they could. You wanna know something that the Germans did during the Holocaust? Odds are you can find the actual documents discussing what you're looking for online. Meanwhile with the Japanese for example their destruction of records was so thorough that we didn't have any pictures of Yamato or Musashi except the ones taken by aircraft involved in the attacks on them until 1948. Hell even today pretty much everything we know about them is from interviews of those who designed and sailed on them. That lack of records really shouldn't be underestimated in the lack of knowledge.
 
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In hindsight — I found all the ink spilled over the particulars and defenses of the Milwaukee Accords in AOFWNT being all for naught with the Red Lakes Confederation eventually characterising itself alongside the others as states. In a way — my statist sensibilities felt vindicated with this, but it likewise leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that a large part of the work and earnest belief that the people in that universe have put upon it is eventually going to be undone at that. There's also Dab Master cringing over some parts that was written especially in Shots Fired.
 
Not sure if this is necessarily cringe per se, but 'Nazi victory timelines" (cringe in of themselves, I know) seem to operate on the assumption that the internal power dynamics of the Reich would match up with those of WWII indefinitely, admittedly mostly* for the purposes of [insert protagonist] to exploit the divisions of the Nazis to cast them down and bring about freedom/liberty/revolution/etc, when I'm given to understand that the SS for example was already marked for a massive reduction in influence?

*I can only speak for "Nazis win, and this is a bad thing (duh)" tls obviously, because i have determined that any TL that starts with trying to define Fascism, National Socialism and 'Hitlerism' as totally separate things is a sign to start quietly backing the duck away.
 
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