What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?

I mean having actually taken steps to write Josef Stalin having to become Ioseb Jugashvilli again and flee to America with his only child at the time and getting wrapped up in New York's organized crime scene, a concept can be more interesting than even it if it's initial presentation depending on how you frame the idea.

But there's also the issue of, if your just writing a pop culture version of someone, or if your trying to just transplant Stalinist Soviet but as an Orthodox Theocracy it can be diminished if you use the characters too much as means to an end of don't focus on the character themselves or even try to examine how they might organically change. Because a Ioseb Jugashvilli who doesn't drop out of a school is going to be a fundamentally different person from even just a younger Stalin in some cases to say nothing of even a Stalin in his later years. Although there's always a risk of a historical figure feeling strangely like an OC or even doing OOC things, do take note some figures are also wildly viewed even in the context of actual historical discussion.

But Romanov Restorations are only as interesting as the world you make around it, and also maybe the scope of it. But you could say the same of a lot of concepts.
 
My (exceedingly shallow and off the cuff thought) would be more that Stalin falls in with the whatever passes for "socialist but still christian, even if only performative on the later part) " crowd in the seminary vs the more conventional marxists and still ends up leaving the seminary, but as much for theological reasons (the subordination of the church to the tsarist regime and the sheer corruption/incompetence of the later) as the reasons he historically ended joined up with the RSDLP.

I admit, as I type this, that it likely doesn't have much in the way of legs. My main thrust would be more that the only way you get from the shambling corpse of the Russian Empire circa 1898 to an Orthodox Theocracy come 1924 is if the Orthodox Church launder the fuck out of themselves by riding the back of a christian socialist themed revolution, which would require them to wake up and smell the gangrene alot earlier than their OTL point of turning on the romanovs (to save their own skins).
 
Semi-related, I never got far enough in TNO to understand what the hell is happening in the Oil Crisis. The Germans backing the Baathists is the simplest part because they all want to form the United Arab Republic.
Oil crises is seeing a bunch of Middle Eastern regimes collapse as a result of built up issues and tensions inherent in them and the it effects the entire globe disrupting the oil market, and in turn causing a dynamo effect across the Middle East as states reel from each blow.

Japan's position is status quo if good with Italians if not then fundamentalists out of a lack of options, OFN status quo or moderate factions while Germany backs either Pan Arabists/Baathists/Communists.

It's being reworked given a few ideas don't work well, like Iran's civil war.
 
Because for me personally if both sides are doing the same shit it defaults into a grey VS grey. I rarely go above that when its two sides with the same morals except for extreme circumstances.

The overton window shifted so fucking far to the right due to their opponents is the main reason reason. Think of it this way basically, WW1 was a bunch of people with various crimes to their names fighting, some may have been worse than others but they were all basically the same level of crime. WW2 another fight from mostly the same people. Some of the group from the either still doing those same crimes or starting to try and reform while the rest have become the world's most wanted criminals for having committed some of the most deplorable acts possible. The "good guys" in the second are still basically the same from the first but things shifted so far towards the dark with the rest it made them lighter in comparison.

First off I would argue it was a civil war to determine which was the real government, of course who won said war depend on who won WW2 as a whole. Second off France arguably did the most against it's collaborators and the Vichy Government. If Wikipedia is correct they sentence 6,763 people to death and while only in the end only 731 were actually executed IIRC it was most of the big names. Petain only escaped death because the man basically saved the French Army during WW1. As is if you were to press me on who I thought was the legitimate government I would go Free France and the French Resistance.

That's a very interesting take, because that allows you to exonerate all those French politicians and generals that served in WW1 that went on to side with the Axis. You can't declare France "light grey" when the majority of the population, military, and government signed a ceasefire and sided with the Axis. You hold Free France to be the legitimate government because it allows you to whitewash the crimes of the French Empire as the actions of fascists and collaborators, perpetuating the self serving myth De Gaulle put forward that "everyone was in the Resistance."

Do you know who was the strongest faction in the resistance was? The communists, whom you've described as "very dark grey" because they are Marxist-Leninists.

If you grade on a curve then in moral relativeness, why are the Soviets "very dark grey" compared to the Western Allies? You said you rank it relative to their opponents, well, the Soviets fought the Nazis, who literally wanted to enslave and genocide them, and suffered the second highest causalities out of any country in the war. If you're marking "greyness" on a curve, by that virtue the Soviets should at the very least be "light grey" given that they fought the Nazis and Axis, and suffered mass death.

Why are the Western Allies "light grey" for fighting the Axis, but the Soviet Union is "very dark grey" for fighting the Axis? This is an arbitrary double standard.

See I consider the Soviets the second biggest blight because they were the second biggest threat to Europe. I don't mean that in by being Communist themselves were they a threat. I mean in that they were the next biggest military threat towards Europe alongside the ones with the potential to kill the most people both internally and externally. Yes the others were shit but they weren't militarily a threat to the rest of Europe. So yeah when calling the Soviets the second biggest blight I'm not just talking about their internal action but how much of an actual threat they could pose to the rest of Europe both military and on the populace.

This is moving goal posts. You didn't say they were the biggest blight because they were a threat. You said "under Stalin I'm sorry but yes they were the second biggest blight on Europe morally at the time." Emphasis mine to highlight that you made a moral judgement about their political system under Stalin, rather than a statement about their military power.

Furthermore, why is the Soviet Union possessing a military a bad thing? If they didn't posses a large military they'd have been rolled by the Nazis, and hundreds of millions of people would have been murdered by the Nazis. That's bad obviously and I'm aware you aren't endorsing General Plan Ost. You are however, painting a narrative that states that if the Nazis didn't exist, then the Soviet Union would be the greatest "threat" to Europe. Threat to whom? The people or ruling class?

It also sounds like what you're saying is if the Nazis didn't exist, the Allies should have built a network of alliances to contain the Soviets or perhaps even declared war on the Soviet Union to remove them as threat. Which is rather ironic because such thinking guided Allied appeasement in the 30s.

Edit: The remark that the Soviets had the "potential" to kill the most people sort of falls flat on its face, when Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe didn't result in mass death or genocide. It was the fascist and far right powers that killed the most people, including their own civilians. You may dismiss the Axis as a gaggle of blundering third rank military powers, but they actually butchered millions of people.

Why are you placing the Soviet Union higher on the "could commit more genocide" list than the Iron Guard, Arrow Cross, Ustase, or Bulgarian Legionaries? The size of Romania, Hungary, Croatia, and Bulgaria's militaries were all smaller than the Soviet Union, but they're the ones that actually committed genocide. That doesn't even touch on Mussolini, who was already establishing concentration camps for political dissents and "anti-social" people well before Stalin ever took power. He gassed people in Libya, Ethiopia, Greece, and Slovenia using chemical weapons, yet he ranks lower on the Soviet Union on your "harm potential" list? Why?
 
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And its not like all those of the pre-war French officer class and colonial administration having formatively gone through WW1 and then being spilt between Vichy and Free French (mostly Vichy at first as just the normal government communiques still coming in and later on more and more defections to the Free French as it became more than just de Gaulle faking it until he made it) all those guys who unflinchingly commanded the French Foreign Legion as it burnt the Bedouin out of their oasis villages and desert wells actually changed their spots. In fact they reincorporated a lot of Free French resistance imagery and organization back into the OAS just about assassinating de Gaulle and launching a new fascist civil war from Algiers to Paris and only narrowly failing and getting out maneuvered.
 
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I do tend to imagine that even barring the existence of the Nazi Germany, I tend to suspect that the soviets might have still eventually attacked Poland, Finland, the Baltic states and Romania under Stalin.

As for genocide and the soviets I would agree that the soviet military didn't engage in such things.

Ethnic cleansing, mass killings and general cultural oppression of nonacceptable minorities was what the NKVD did as I can tell is known of their activities during the great purges aimed at various minority ethnic groups deemed 'economic enemies' by Stalin and during the soviet conquests of the Baltic states, eastern Poland and Mordovia during the beginning of World War II.

Though if we were to speak of straight up soviet targeted directed genocide, I would generally say the NKVD actions against the soviet polish population in 1937-1938 with the direct killings of over a hundred thousand polish men for the crime of being poles or as Stalin put it "Polish filth" would likely count.

Meanwhile their wives were sent to Gulags, their children were taken to be 'raised as 'good soviets', their family possessions were seized, and their relatives and in-laws were apparently left to fend for themselves with nothing to live on.

Still even with that and the other targeted horrors Stalin committed against ethnic minorities across the Soviet Union as well as Stalin's aggression against Finland, Poland, the Baltic States and Romania at the beginning of World War II the Nazis were still far, far worse both in what they actually committed and what they intended.
 
As for genocide and the soviets I would agree that the soviet military didn't engage in such things.
I mean if you ignore all the stories of mass rape, civilian executions and the ilk the military committed sure they didn't do crap.

Do you know who was the strongest faction in the resistance was? The communists, whom you've described as "very dark grey" because they are Marxist-Leninists.
See at this point I think this is where our wires are getting crossed. I'm not calling the Soviets themselves dark grey morally, I'm specifically calling them that UNDER FUCKING STALIN! Literally one of the biggest mass murders in history. Fuck there's literally a fucking wikipedia article about the war crimes they committed with links to the MULTIPLE PAGES talking about the war crimes they committed against the occupied nations. I don't give a fuck they were Communist by itself, they could've been the most free and liberal society in history. I give a fuck that they were being lead by a mass murdering psychopath who best case committed various cases of ethnic cleansings, ordered the murder of PoWs on multiple occasions, looked away when his army was committing rape and murder, a man who is depending on how you do the counting is either the second or third deadliest dictator in modern times.

So to be clear I do not consider the Soviets "very dark grey" because they are Communist. I consider them "very dark grey" because at the heart of the nation is the black cold beating heart running them going by the name of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin.
 
Honestly I can never really buy an idea of an expansionist Stalin, or that Stalinist Russia was somehow going to be an existential threat. Stalin was pretty much a double or even triple dealer when it came to foreign policy, but only if he thinks he could get something and only if someone else is fitting the bill.

He was willing to back Jiang over Mao, not really get involved and take a non-aggression pact with Japan, while Japan was invading China while at the same time more than willing to try and keep old Tsarist Imperial projects, the Soviet 'inherited' in China. This being Russia interests in Xinjiang and propping out Outer Mongolia, although the Soviets did try keep the Chinese Eastern Railway (CER), but gave up on that after the Japanese took Manchuria. Later he basically breaks the non-aggression pact with Japan, still backs Chiang and asks for the CER to be returned to the Soviet Union, but not before selling out Sheng Shicai in Xinjiang to Jiang after Sheng basically betrays him come Operation Barbarossa.

Post-1947 Stalin basically backs Mao when Mao is finally winning, and he also gives Kim Il Sung the green to go try and invade South Korea, as long as the Chinese who aren't in good shape do the heavy lifting. But WWII as bastards vs bastards doesn't really have the same ring to it when one side has genocide, and in the case of Japan a military ethos that lends itself to cruelty, and the still horrible Imperialist powers of the Allies don't. Even a half-assed Axis victory is almost always going to worse than an Allied one by definition.
 
I mean if you ignore all the stories of mass rape, civilian executions and the ilk the military committed sure they didn't do crap.
I mean, are you talking about genocides or aren't you? Genocide doesn't mean "all bad things a group does", it refers to a specific crime with specific definitions.

I don't believe they were suggesting that the Red Army never committed any wrongdoings.
 
I mean, are you talking about genocides or aren't you? Genocide doesn't mean "all bad things a group does", it refers to a specific crime with specific definitions.

I don't believe they were suggesting that the Red Army never committed any wrongdoings.

My understanding is that the Soviet Union's campaign against the nomadic Kazakh as part of their collectivization process constituted a genocide. It was a program that resulted in somewhere between 1.5 - 2.3 million deaths, was targeted against a specific culture, and was intended to bring about their destruction.

Stalin's policy of population transfer has similarly been characterized as genocidal with the deportation of the Crimean Tatars having been declared a genocide by several countries, the European Parliament calling the deportation of the Chechens and Ingush as a genocide, and Boris Yeltsin denouncing all mass deportations as "Stalin's policy of defamation and genocide" in the 1991 law "On the Rehabilitation of Repressed Peoples".

There is also the Holodomor, Dekulakization, and numerous other widespread purges which caused an unimaginable amount of suffering but do not as closely fit the traditional definition of Genocide.

I share this as it seems relevant to the most recent discussion and any historical fiction (alternate or otherwise) that pretended this aspect of Soviet history in the lead-up to the Second World War didn't happed would certainly be quite cringeworthy.

PS: Bit of a side note here, I see some comparisons to the French supression of resistance in Morocco and can't find any data that can show how accurate this is. There is coverage of the initial conquest and various massacres or rebellions but nothing that gives a comprehensive number that can be used in comparison against Genocides committed by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or other powers. If anyone cam share some resources or data that can shed more light on this period then that would be appreciated.
 
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I mean, are you talking about genocides or aren't you? Genocide doesn't mean "all bad things a group does", it refers to a specific crime with specific definitions.

I don't believe they were suggesting that the Red Army never committed any wrongdoings.
One can argue the actions in the Baltic states that were occupied could be considered one, or the actions in occupied Poland. Though I'll admit the latter was more aimed at the intelligentsia for specific killing while the rest was more cultural than physical.
 
I do tend to imagine that even barring the existence of the Nazi Germany, I tend to suspect that the soviets might have still eventually attacked Poland, Finland, the Baltic states and Romania under Stalin.
I'm not sure. One half of the problems under Stalin was choosing an extreme way to solve problems without regard for victims. But the other half was that Stalin was absolutely pragmatic. But he was not an ideologically organized fanatic - he often adjusted ideology to specific decisions. Which, combined with cruel methods, led to tragedies. So I don't think Stalin would have attacked his Western neighbors if he hadn't gotten away with it. Because the Baltic Republics and Poland were essentially created specifically to be a barrier against the USSR, and an attack on them would have ended badly. But Hitler appeared, who began actively remaking Europe and declared his desire to expand to the East. Attempts to create a single anti-Hitler bloc have repeatedly failed - including thanks to Poland. Hitler could attack the Soviet Union at some point, so it makes sense to move the border to the West. These states are still fanatically anti-Soviet, and can help any other potential enemies. Moreover, in the case of the Polish Kresy, the majority of the population believes that it is better to join the USSR (since in Poland they are second-class citizens). Considering that Stalin hoped that Hitler would first attack Great Britain, and only then the USSR, he considered the division of Eastern Europe a good tactical combination. Without Hitler, he would not have wanted to take such a risk.
 
In completion of my annual ritual of self-flagellation I have recently reread the old TGG fics on SB and, setting aside the incroguity of a woman who proposed a deliberate cleansing of America's minority urban populations complaining about the UFP being the racists; alot of the late 1990s/Early 2000's End of History takes on Alternate History (where they are coming up with Alternate Timelines and not just using sci fi IPs as their sockpuppets and strawmen) were exceedingly cringe, such as:
  • Any variation of Europen Unity is a trojan horse for the Fourth Reich, or worse (gasp) Communism! (dun dun dun)
  • The weird early 00's idea that the British could actually turn the Commonwealth into Empire 2.0 (with what fucking military?)
  • Lots of Monarchism
  • Wehrabooism and Kaiserbooism up the wazoo
  • Convenient virtual extinction of all Semetic peoples in more than one TL
  • Alot of admiration for the performative 'judeo-christian cultural values' kick, specifically the late 90's/00's internet version
  • a deep seated loathing of welfare in all its forms
  • Making Ben Sisko a General Lee stand-in
 
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That sounds pretty bad. By the way, what do TGG and UFP mean? I haven't heard of that story before.
UFP likely means United Federation of Planets, eg. the Star Trek Federation (it's a pretty common acronym for it in fan circles and there's that "the UFP being the racists/Ben Sisko a General Lee stand-in" thing).
 
East Germany, Poland, Finland, Hungry, Moldova... Stalin was always quite happy to send thugs in to murder enough people until the survivors accepted their new overlord.

I'd say Stalin was more of an opportunist than a dedicated expansionist. As I understand, he largely threw the Greek communists under the bus and generally tried to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs, even withdrawing from the parts of Iran the USSR controlled when the UN told them to.

If anything, I'd say Khrushchev was more aggressive towards the First World and its sphere of influence than Stalin was.
 
I'd say Stalin was more of an opportunist than a dedicated expansionist. As I understand, he largely threw the Greek communists under the bus and generally tried to stay out of Middle Eastern affairs, even withdrawing from the parts of Iran the USSR controlled when the UN told them to.

If anything, I'd say Khrushchev was more aggressive towards the First World and its sphere of influence than Stalin was.
I mean Stalin did become more aggressive in the later part of his career. Coincidentally that also coincide with the Soviets getting the bomb.
 
East Germany, Poland, Finland, Hungry, Moldova... Stalin was always quite happy to send thugs in to murder enough people until the survivors accepted their new overlord.
Not really. Notice how this only happened in very specific circumstances? With the exception of Poland most of the expansion you're describing was directly after WW2 and represented very clear security goals, the creation of a series of buffer states to prevent a future invasion.

It's not a motivation that justifies the suffering imposed of course but it's hardly the kind of action that reflects consistent expansionism. Stalin was an enormously cautious leader, he was wiling to conquer other states but it wasn't the default response for him. Let's not let moralism get in the way of sober analysis, just because he did bad things doesn't mean words like "expansionist" accurately describe what was at its heart a much more reactive and opportunistic foreign policy.

My understanding is that the Soviet Union's campaign against the nomadic Kazakh as part of their collectivization process constituted a genocide. It was a program that resulted in somewhere between 1.5 - 2.3 million deaths, was targeted against a specific culture, and was intended to bring about their destruction.
None of this has to do with my point, we're specifically talking about the red army. The person I responded to was citing generic crimes and atrocities, which itself is not evidence of genocide.

I wasn't arguing that the Soviet state as a whole had never done anything that could constitute genocide. Just that the examples given were bad.
 
None of this has to do with my point, we're specifically talking about the red army. The person I responded to was citing generic crimes and atrocities, which itself is not evidence of genocide.

I wasn't arguing that the Soviet state as a whole had never done anything that could constitute genocide. Just that the examples given were bad.

Thanks for the clarification

On a related note, is there a meaningful moral distinction for actions performed directly by the military vs those done by bureaucratic or paramilitary forces? In both cases the power of the military provides the ultimate foundation for state authority. The military is also directly responsible for the conquest in those many cases where the victims are in a conquered region.
 
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In completion of my annual ritual of self-flagellation I have recently reread the old TGG fics on SB and, setting aside the incroguity of a woman who proposed a deliberate cleansing of America's minority urban populations complaining about the UFP being the racists; alot of the late 1990s/Early 2000's End of History takes on Alternate History (where they are coming up with Alternate Timelines and not just using sci fi IPs as their sockpuppets and strawmen) were exceedingly cringe, such as:
  • Any variation of Europen Unity is a trojan horse for the Fourth Reich, or worse (gasp) Communism! (dun dun dun)
  • The weird early 00's idea that the British could actually turn the Commonwealth into Empire 2.0 (with what fucking military?)
  • Lots of Monarchism
  • Wehrabooism and Kaiserbooism up the wazoo
  • Convenient virtual extinction of all Semetic peoples in more than one TL
  • Alot of admiration for the performative 'judeo-christian cultural values' kick, specifically the late 90's/00's internet version
  • a deep seated loathing of welfare in all its forms
  • Making Ben Sisko a General Lee stand-in
Since nobody else is asking, please elaborate because what the fuck
 
On a related note, is there a meaningful moral distinction for actions performed directly by the military vs those done by bureaucratic or paramilitary forces? In both cases the power of the military provides the ultimate foundation for state authority. The military is also directly responsible for the conquest in those many cases where the victims are in a conquered region.
Not particularly, I suppose individual military officers could claim that they had no choice and that the broader state apparatus was beyond their power (and for what it's worth the NKVD was willing to kill officers, that is after all what the great purge was all about) but that doesn't particularly absolve the military as a whole.

My point was more just criticizing what I saw as poor logic, not making a moral case for the Red Army.
 
Not really. Notice how this only happened in very specific circumstances? With the exception of Poland most of the expansion you're describing was directly after WW2 and represented very clear security goals, the creation of a series of buffer states to prevent a future invasion.

It's not a motivation that justifies the suffering imposed of course but it's hardly the kind of action that reflects consistent expansionism. Stalin was an enormously cautious leader, he was wiling to conquer other states but it wasn't the default response for him. Let's not let moralism get in the way of sober analysis, just because he did bad things doesn't mean words like "expansionist" accurately describe what was at its heart a much more reactive and opportunistic foreign policy.

While I'd agree Stalin wasn't a constant aggressor Moldova as well as other sizable chunks of Romania that were incorporated into the Ukraine SSR were conquered in 1940 even if that was a part of Romania pretty having vast chunks being carved up by the Soviets, Hungary and Bulgaria.

That had the consequences from what I gathered of leading Ion Antonescu coming to power and forming an alliance with what remained of the Iron Guard that survived the 1938 purge who apparently had been propped up by the SS and aligning with the Axis.

1940 also saw the soviet conquest of the Baltic States and the failed attempt to conquer Finland.
 
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