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What WB/DC should do to compete against Disney/Marvel's MCU?

Make good stand-alone movies.
Superhero movies sell, and good ones sell well. Good ones that do new things with the genre sell really well.
If your movies sell well, you can make more good movies. Eventually you just have a whole group of movies and can maybe consider doing big crossover events - or you can leave it, because you don't have to imitate the MCU.

The question is, what can they do with their hero lineup that is genuinely new and interesting?
Wonder Woman has the advantage of being the first current-generation big budget female superhero. They could just keep going with that, obviously. But what can they do with Superman or Batman that is acutally new and interesting? It doesn't need to be overtly political - it needs to be thematical, and needs to find a new way to resonate with the audience.

My answer here would be to step away from Batman and Superman. Run with some of your less-famous heroes. Give them a movie, try to do an interesting thing with it, if it works well give them another. Just keep around what sticks and build your cinematic universe up that way.
 
Serafina said:
Make good stand-alone movies.
Superhero movies sell, and good ones sell well. Good ones that do new things with the genre sell really well.
If your movies sell well, you can make more good movies. Eventually you just have a whole group of movies and can maybe consider doing big crossover events - or you can leave it, because you don't have to imitate the MCU.

The question is, what can they do with their hero lineup that is genuinely new and interesting?
Wonder Woman has the advantage of being the first current-generation big budget female superhero. They could just keep going with that, obviously. But what can they do with Superman or Batman that is acutally new and interesting? It doesn't need to be overtly political - it needs to be thematical, and needs to find a new way to resonate with the audience.

My answer here would be to step away from Batman and Superman. Run with some of your less-famous heroes. Give them a movie, try to do an interesting thing with it, if it works well give them another. Just keep around what sticks and build your cinematic universe up that way.
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Marvel not getting to use its most iconic characters and instead having to make a bunch of B and C listers iconic before ever touching any of its true A list characters was probably a massive boon for the MCU.

Meanwhile DC seems to have defaulted to Batman because Wayne cannot stop being the centre of the multiverse for five seconds.
 
They could also just make a bunch of movies where Batman and Superman are background characters, and re-build them as characters that way.
It could be as simple as Wonderwoman using Superman as an example of a great male role-model in one of her movies. Or having an Oracle movie (also, disabled representation) that shows that Batman can fail, and move out of peoples lives, but still have left a positive impact. In neither case it should be the center of the movie, it should be one or two mentions that are part of a larger scene that's ultimately more about the character and theme the movie is about, rather than Batman or Superman.

That way, you can build up a firm identity for these two A-listers without spending any money on a super-expensive movie for them. If any movie they're mentioned in fails - well, not such a big deal, you have others.
And you'll build audience anticipation. If you do it well, maybe after a bunch of movies where the near-mytholigical caped crusader Batman is mentioned, people might be interested in seeing a movie about him. At that point, you might even do the whole "he's a broken fallen hero, let's build tension whether he'll return to his glory days" thing that they tried to do, because you have emotional investment to work with.
 
Salty said:
Realize that trying to compete against Marvel by aping Marvel is setting themselves up for failure.
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I disagree; they're not actually aping Marvel at all. Marvel focused on building up individual films that stand alone through a solid narrative formula and consistent thematics then has the occasional cross over. If anything DC should ape then more!
 
Mutton said:
I disagree; they're not actually aping Marvel at all. Marvel focused on building up individual films that stand alone through a solid narrative formula and consistent thematics then has the occasional cross over. If anything DC should ape then more!
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Indeed, the only sense that they're "not aping Marvel" in is that Marvel actually knows how to make good superhero movies in a shared universe and DC is doing the opposite in an attempt to stand out.
 
firefossil said:
DC should endeavor to painstakingly rebuild their movie-verse around their greatest work of all time, the Teen Titans Go animated series.
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Indeed.



Though, I'd prefer they just make their production staff watch Batman: TAS over and over again until they understand how to make something good.
 
Simple.
Stop trying to play in the same sandbox that Marvel's doing. Stop trying to build, poorly, Justice League and only getting a hot mess.

Be Brave, Be Bold. Go BEYOND.

Just wipe the slate(you can keep Wonder Woman since she's immortal and all) and run from scratch. Begin with Batman, if you really want. But not Bruce Wayne Batman, oh no.

Go to the future. Build a bleak future, be cyberpunk.

Batman Beyond.

With Michael Keaton as Old Man Bruce.

Go from there. Reimagine some of these characters. Give a Green Lantern that doesn't suck balls. Embrace some of the more extreme aesthetics. Green Lantern, interstellar space-cop. Cyberpunk Batman Beyond, full on Greek epic with Diana, etc.

Marvel's done a bit of this, but are probably saving a lot of it for post IW/Avengers 4. So the idea is strike while the iron is hot, before the MCU has overtaken those niche positions as well.
 
Zap Rowsdower said:
Indeed, the only sense that they're "not aping Marvel" in is that Marvel actually knows how to make good superhero movies in a shared universe and DC is doing the opposite in an attempt to stand out.
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I mean, the Marvel films all work on a similar narrative structure. Opener with the heroes being badass, second act introducing the new villains and issues which ends on a bittersweet to downer note which leads to the third act where the villain is triumphant and the heroes marshal their forces, fourth act where Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song plays while Thor goes crazy on a motherfucker. The villains will have been created or motivated by problems that the heroes or the side of the heroes created in the past and overcoming the baddies will take facing up to these sins.

It's gotten to the point where in your standard MCU film (not counting IW as that's half a film and doesn't fit the mold) I could tell you the exact story beats from 15-20 minutes in. Black Panther was a perfect execution of this formula, as was Thor Ragnarok. This isn't to discount the skills of the writers, directors, and actors involved, but it's a nice standard structure which has been sharpened to a fine edge. DC should be ripping that off, not just the "we want a shared universe" aspect.

Also all the Marvel films outside of The Avengers and Civil War (which was basically an Avengers film) are pretty stand alone; they didn't try and force them into crossovers outside of the film equivalent of big summer events. Meanwhile in DC you have the first Batman film being half Superman with Wonder Woman thrown in for good measure.
 
Flectarn said:
Indeed.



Though, I'd prefer they just make their production staff watch Batman: TAS over and over again until they understand how to make something good.
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So, now TTG is mocking people who liked the original version directly?

Only good thing about the trailer is that pretty much everyone from Slade to the League view TTG as worthless losers...
 
Glimmervoid said:
Be bold. The one film in the franchise that really worked was Wonder Woman. The problem, of course, is Wonder Woman was a period peace but that's why I said be bold. Get rid of everything but Wonder Woman and reboot all the other characters in the same time period - the Interwar Period. This instantly gives the DC films a intense unique flavour to stand out from Marvel. It even fits with the meta-timeline to a degree - Superman and Batman were first created at the end of the Interwar Peroid and it would be no great effort to move them back ten years.
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This would also have the advantage of giving you an out for Superman and Batman having a shared universe and benefit from teaming up, in that you could shift to the golden age powerset, limit superior to being more powerful than a locomotive and faster than a speeding bullet, leaping tall buildings in a single bound... Needing to use his cape to stop bullets
 
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Mutton said:
I mean, the Marvel films all work on a similar narrative structure. Opener with the heroes being badass, second act introducing the new villains and issues which ends on a bittersweet to downer note which leads to the third act where the villain is triumphant and the heroes marshal their forces, fourth act where Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song plays while Thor goes crazy on a motherfucker. The villains will have been created or motivated by problems that the heroes or the side of the heroes created in the past and overcoming the baddies will take facing up to these sins.

It's gotten to the point where in your standard MCU film (not counting IW as that's half a film and doesn't fit the mold) I could tell you the exact story beats from 15-20 minutes in. Black Panther was a perfect execution of this formula, as was Thor Ragnarok. This isn't to discount the skills of the writers, directors, and actors involved, but it's a nice standard structure which has been sharpened to a fine edge. DC should be ripping that off, not just the "we want a shared universe" aspect.

Also all the Marvel films outside of The Avengers and Civil War (which was basically an Avengers film) are pretty stand alone; they didn't try and force them into crossovers outside of the film equivalent of big summer events. Meanwhile in DC you have the first Batman film being half Superman with Wonder Woman thrown in for good measure.
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Copying Marvel with things like "do your homework to get the multiverse built up rather than rushing it" or "stick to knowable safe marketable beats" is a step up from what DC is currently doing, but its still just aping Marvel, and will probably lose out as they are already 'stale' and 'imitators' at the get-go.

Snyder's work has issues but the whole operatic epic gods and monsters angle is an interesting one, especially if you got rid of the dreck and further polished the concept. Part of the reason Black Panther did so well is because its story wasn't just a superhero story, but almost mythic in style, and with a powerful message. Doing superhero story that is greater in scope and genre than brightly costumed people punching each other has potential.

Meanwhile the animated series stick to more traditional no-kill superheroes (whereas the MCU heroes are pointedly willing to kill) and/or focus on youthful casts, there is no reason DC can't flank Marvel from the lighter toned side. Its not like kid's movies can't make tons of moolah or be critically acclaimed.
 
firefossil said:
Copying Marvel with things like "do your homework to get the multiverse built up rather than rushing it" or "stick to knowable safe marketable beats" is a step up from what DC is currently doing, but its still just aping Marvel, and will probably lose out as they are already 'stale' and 'imitators' at the get-go.

Snyder's work has issues but the whole operatic epic gods and monsters angle is an interesting one, especially if you got rid of the dreck and further polished the concept. Part of the reason Black Panther did so well is because its story wasn't just a superhero story, but almost mythic in style, and with a powerful message. Doing superhero story that is greater in scope and genre than brightly costumed people punching each other has potential.

Meanwhile the animated series stick to more traditional no-kill superheroes (whereas the MCU heroes are pointedly willing to kill) and/or focus on youthful casts, there is no reason DC can't flank Marvel from the lighter toned side. Its not like kid's movies can't make tons of moolah or be critically acclaimed.
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DC still gets a ton of butts in seats with their crappy films. Having halfway decent ones that just rip off the Marvel film style will do wonders for their image.

I don't think there's much of a coherent thematic message in Snyder's work that you can bring out; much of his themeing tends to be vaguely waving his hand at ideas and going "you know what I mean" instead of the consistent reinforcement that Marvel does. He has ideas but is a terrible midwife
 
Jcogginsa said:
I think "Full On Greek epic" is the wrong direction to go with Diana
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Possibly so, that one was just as an example. Like, throw clashes of the world she grew up in with the modern world, etc. I dunno. Even if not full-on greek epic with quests to the underworld(is every God dead, etc?) Embrace the fact that's an Immortal Amazon and so on. Look for ways to set them apart. Hell, had they not started with WWI, you could legit make her movies period pieces, as she navigates through various periods of time and the impact she has on them/they on her.
 
Mutton said:
DC still gets a ton of butts in seats with their crappy films. Having halfway decent ones that just rip off the Marvel film style will do wonders for their image.
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DC keeps using its most iconic A-list characters and is barely able to keep up with Marvel's B, C, or D list characters in box office performance, and even there the DCEU has pointedly come up short, Nolan's 2nd and 3rd Batman movies are the only DC movies that have broken a billion worldwide, none of the DCEU come close even after 5 years, and adjusting for inflation its even worse.
 
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firefossil said:
DC keeps using its most iconic A-list characters and is barely able to keep up with Marvel's B, C, or D list characters in box office performance.
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I mean, the A-list characters are in of itself the problem. DC has a smallish cluster of front line characters with a lot of mainstream recognition, but most of its characters outside of that really aren't that well recognized. Compared to Marvel which has a much healthier stable of b-tier characters with at least a little bit of pull with the mainstream.

(Though the caveat is that most of those b-tier are X Men.)
 
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Reveen said:
I mean, the A-list characters are in of itself the problem. DC has a smallish cluster of front line characters with a lot of mainstream recognition, but most of its characters outside of that really aren't that we'll recognized. Compared to Marvel which has a much healthier stable of b-tier characters.

(Though the caveat is that most of those b-tier are X Men.)
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This. Which is why I think they need to go different, as I mentioned above. Like, do something fresh with them. Bruce Wayne Batman's been done to death, so change it up and go for Batman but give it a new spin, something that they -haven't done or doesn't seem like they're just trying to outright imitate Marvel.
 
Reveen said:
I mean, the A-list characters are in of itself the problem. DC has a smallish cluster of front line characters with a lot of mainstream recognition, but most of its characters outside of that really aren't that well recognized. Compared to Marvel which has a much healthier stable of b-tier characters with at least a little bit of pull with the mainstream.

(Though the caveat is that most of those b-tier are X Men.)
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Except that Marvel worked for it. Iron Man was B tier at best until RDJ's film performance made him a star, the third one made more than any movie in the DCEU. Deadpool was R rated and obscure yet nearly matched Wonder Woman at the box office. Guardians of the Galaxy were literally "who?" and also a bit of a "now for something completely different" note that took place on the cosmic side of things yet made like a 100 million more than Justice League or Man of Steel. Doctor Strange was "remember that time Ditko did all the drugs?" and also made more than those two.
 
firefossil said:
DC keeps using its most iconic A-list characters and is barely able to keep up with Marvel's B, C, or D list characters in box office performance, and even there the DCEU has pointedly come up short, Nolan's 2nd and 3rd Batman movies are the only DC movies that have broken a billion worldwide, none of the DCEU come close even after 5 years, and adjusting for inflation its even worse.
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Which largely comes down to constant crappy reviews pushing audiences away. They haven't even made a real Batman film for the DCEU, just a crossover where he goes MAAAAAAAAAAAARTHAAAAAAAAAAA!

If they used a working formula and got a high 70 low 80s RT score nobody outside of the annoying fanboys would care that they're similar to Marvel films in structure because "hot damn it's my favorite DC characters kicking ass."
 
Mutton said:
Which largely comes down to constant crappy reviews pushing audiences away. They haven't even made a real Batman film for the DCEU, just a crossover where he goes MAAAAAAAAAAAARTHAAAAAAAAAAA!

If they used a working formula and got a high 70 low 80s RT score nobody outside of the annoying fanboys would care that they're similar to Marvel films in structure because "hot damn it's my favorite DC characters kicking ass."
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When it comes down to it a large part of what DC needs is for Zach Snyder to come down with a severe case of Caesaritis.
 
firefossil said:
Marvel's B, C, or D list characters
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I like @Revlid's version of what are comic heroes tiers:
A-tier = known to normies, star of multiple media sources
B-tier = recognized by normies but without details, maybe a show or movie
C-tier = unknown to most normies and some comic readers, might guest-star in another show
D-tier = comics-only, unknown to many comics fans
E-tier = literally who
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firefossil said:
Except that Marvel worked for it. Iron Man was B tier at best until RDJ's film performance made him a star, the third one made more than any movie in the DCEU.
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Which proves my point, because though Iron Man was b-tier in the public eye, he was still a well known property. Compared to Martian Manhunter, who barely anyone who doesn't read comics would know a thing about despite him being a key member of the Justice League.

Guardians is more of an outlier, considering that it was marketed as a Star Wars-is space story, which doesn't really rely on pure name recognition that superhero movies do.
 
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