What Can SV Teach an Sorcerer in the Mesolithic?

0. Status, Basics, Summaries, & Tech List
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                         NOTICES
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Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (Bianca does NOT hear what you write right now)
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Next story update : soon, I hope
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 2,724 words
We're on step 5: reading & composition of in-line replies
Total words in 'what Bianca's been told' notes : 3,119
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Anything I post that's not in vote options, quote boxes,
code blocks or in spoilers may be understood to be said
by Bianca.
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Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
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You can quote other sources, but I don't want this to 
turn into Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources. When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.

Please do not use Large Language Model assistants like
ChatGPT or similar to compose your effortposts. I mean
for this game to be about communication, not prompt
engineering.

Thank you.



Check the summaries in this status post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

If you're not already involved in the game and you want to get right into it without digging through the back catalog, consider doing this:
  1. Read the summaries in this Status Post.
  2. Pull up the latest Threadmark.
  3. Skip to the line that says "B R E A K."
  4. Skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

If there's no Closing The Vote post in the Informationals corresponding to the latest Threadmarks, then the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude and Bianca will hear what you post, unless you post inside spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude.

If the game is not in a Cacophonous Interlude, you can still post. It's just that Bianca can't hear you. You might still want to post so you can coordinate with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans. You can compose a message to Bianca all whether or not the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude. And once the game returns to a Cacophonous Interlude, you can vote and/or send a message to Bianca by creating a post in the thread.

If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them. I should find the 'how to vote' general post and link it here, I guess.

If you want to send a message to Bianca, keep in mind that she is a creature of another time. She may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to Bianca, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of her understanding of the world. You might even need to consider her biases and values.

I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of Bianca and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell her.

Bianca has different values than we do. She has different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Her goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But she wants power and will listen most attentively to players that tell her how to get more of or closer to what she wants.

Keep in mind that you players are not trusted advisors. You're the Astute Cacophony: voices that Bianca mostly can't tell apart from each other.

If the total amount of player-generated content gets to be more than I can handle either because there are so many players or because player posts get so long, I will set a cap. At this time, I intend that the cap will be some total number of characters, with each player who speaks to Bianca having access to an equal share. Unused share gets divided up among the rest of the players until it runs out. If each player's share seems too small, I will also set a limit on the number of players Bianca will hear in a Cacophonous Interlude. And priority will be assigned based on post order.

I guess ideally the story doesn't attract so many people who want to guide the uplift that I have to set these limits.

I do not at this time plan to set a limit on voting players. I don't see how that could get out of hand on a niche quest like this.
  1. I post and Threadmark a story update that has 3 parts:
    • Bianca's responses to player posts made during the last Cacophonous Interlude, followed by 'B R E A K'
    • An update by Bianca following a hiatus of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what she believes is worth mentioning
    • Requests by Bianca for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
  2. Following each story update, players' posts are audible to Bianca until voting is closed.
    This is the Cacophonous Interlude.
    • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
    • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
    • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with me and with each other without doing so in ways Bianca can hear.
  3. When votes are tallied, I collect player posts in an Informational so that it may be known what Bianca heard.
    • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting for. And only effectively identical write-ins accumulate votes.
    • You can vote your own write-in any time you want anyway, of course.
  4. I collect player posts and post them in the vote results for reference. This is the point where what is said in the Cacophonous Interlude is locked in.
  5. I read player posts, take notes, determine what Bianca already thinks she knows, and compose Bianca's in-line replies to those posts that invite replies.
  6. I research player advice, claims, and suggestions, check my notes for precedent, determine what Bianca's right or wrong about, how likely she is to engage with the topic, how likely Blanca's followers are to follow through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be, later in the narrative.
  7. When the narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, I devise tests for Bianca or other characters and make those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
    • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew that's mostly the Burning Wheel system, notably including War and Factions from the Burning Wheel Anthology -- which I really, really would have benefitted from the last time around -- on d10s with different 'shade' ranges (see below), no Artha, no Beliefs or Instincts, no Stock-exclusive skills, probably no Emotional Attributes, and clocks from Blades in the Dark because setting automation is fantastic. (The Burning Wheel is a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
      • I will post the dice, threshold of success, and results of each test before rolling it.
      • Tests may:
        • Be made by rolling one of an entity's attributes against a static target, or may
        • Be made by two entities each rolling one of their attributes where the one with the greater result wins to some degree, and may
        • Have absolute results, or may
        • Have tiered results, and may
        • Result in pyrrhic victories or welcome defeats.
      • The rules being used and followed will be described in each Informational in which tests are made.
      • Normal mortals count 7s and better toward success.
      • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better toward success, so long as what they're doing aligns with their heroism or their magical theme.
      • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better toward success, so long as what they're doing aligns with their divine heritage.
      • Gods and count 4s and better toward success, as do their avatars, so long as what the avatar is doing aligns with the god's domains.
      • Gods count 3s and better toward success when what they're going aligns with their domains.
      • 1s and 2s never count toward success.
      • Sorcery, other magic skills, and some magical tools lower the threshold of success by a non-cumulative 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are or are essential to the skill being tested, not when they help with other skills. Players may note that a god's threshold of success when they are acting within their domain does not improve when they use magic or magical tools.
      • Helping dice provided by magic, magical items, tame (not domesticated) warbeasts larger than hounds, or any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow roll an additional die after each 9 or 10 and keep counting successes. Further 9s & 10s lead to further rolls. Unless the magic, magical item, or incendiary device is the product of an especially refined industry or practice (no exceptions for non-domesticated big warbeasts -- if the animal is dangerous to the enemy it is dangerous to everyone), these same helping dice cancel successes on 1s & 2s and roll another die for each 1 or 2. Additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2s, 9s, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, when a 9 or 10 on a helping die from war elephants provides an additional die and that die rolls a 1 or 2, that doesn't cancel successes or lead to further additional dice.
    • When players expect a test -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they might be able to add helping dice to the test by providing Bianca with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. Often, decent advice adds dice. Sometimes good advice may outright guarantee success, preventing the test entirely.
    • I'm going to have to choose some kind of accumulation-of-progress-toward-a-goal mechanic that fits the faction clocks from Burning Wheel but I'm not sure about how that's going to work right now. Maybe Conflicts from Mouseguard or Torchbearer?
    • Similarly, since this is an uplift quest and players will often provide incomplete but potentially sufficient information, some kind of test will be needed to see if Bianca and/or her minions are able to fill in the gaps and implement the desired technology. This is probably just going to be some skill test with a high obstacle and not-a-complete-failure thresholds that make the next test easier and whoops-all-on-fire-now thresholds that make the next test harder.
  8. I compose Bianca's post-hiatus update, new questions for vote, and new vote options.
  9. GOTO 1
Bianca will be the only character the players will directly interact with in this game.

Bianca is a human-shaped interface in the material world for a powerful soul entity. She's smaller than most of the human and human-like people she's met. And her phenotypic expression is unique from all surviving human-like populations. She looks really old and she'll tell you that she wears it well.

Bianca has magical abilities related to her original function as a vault guardian for her missing maker. She has other magical abilities related to the hundreds of years she spent traveling the world after she gave up waiting on her maker. As a being of divine heritage, Bianca counts 6s and better as successes on all tests. The nature of her divine heritage means she counts 5s and better as successes if what she's doing is related to getting into god crypts or similar, keeping others from getting into the same, or awakening great soul-things that have been cut off from the material world since the last time magic wasn't forbidden by reality. Other applications exist and haven't appeared in the game.

Bianca needs to return to the vault that her maker entrusted to her every few years for magical maintenance on her material form. She's pretty sure that if her material form is destroyed without injuring her soul and the stuff in that vault is intact she can rebuild her material 'body.'

Bianca has claimed to perform Soul Magic, Wayfinding Magic, and Healing Magic. She can also enchant objects under unspecified circumstances.

Despite sacrificing autonomy to connect with the Astute Cacophony, Bianca values her independence.

1. Era Choice
Bianca woke up from a long time when magic didn't work. Afterward, she spent about 900 years in the place where she woke, which the god who made her told her to guard before everyone who couldn't survive without magic went into some kind of hibernation. Then Bianca traveled the world for around another 900 years. She found people who didn't have magic. She didn't find any gods.

Bianca understands that the players can't tell her about the setting's magical systems. She wants power and wants the players to tell her how to get power in the material world.

There's stuff in Bianca's Vault that does things she understands, and more that she doesn't.

Bianca asks the players when the game should start.
2. Three Quests at the Dawn of the World
The players choose the Stone Age, but just barely.

Bianca starts with two magic items: the Red Knife, a very nice Acheulean hand axe enchanted to keep its edge and not break; and the Coat of Two Suns, a shimmery cloak made from the hide of an unspecified magical creature ("swift running beasts that shimmer like water") enchanted to smell good and be soft.

The players give Bianca a lot of advice. More than one suggest iron, which Bianca says she'll try to get.

Bianca spends around 400 years getting pottery working, finding iron ore, figuring out iron smelting and fining, making soap, figuring out clay pot distillation of alcohol, obtaining potassium nitrite, and figuring out steel bluing.

There's a community of fishers in a bay near where she's digging up ore. She pulls them into her shenanigans. The place they live is called Black Hook Bay.

Bianca enchants the best blued steel 'knife' she made like her Red Knife. It's called the Black Knife now.

The combination of the pescatarian lure of (mostly) relatively easy meat and the steel tools Bianca has given them and has taught them to make keeps the Black Hook Bay people around longer than the land will endure with grace. They've grown in number and overstayed their time such that they've cleared out medicinal and essential nutrition plants from the area. Also, they lost knowledge of a lot of them.

(Un?)fortunately, their neighbors are within reach for young people with iron weapons and bright ideas. So raids are solving some problems and creating others.

Bianca has asked the players which of three tasks she should undertake: very cursed dungeon crawl, suborn a murderous cult trying to summon the kind of god murderous cults summon, or befriend some monsters who aren't finding a place for themselves in a world after they went through some big changes.
3. Launching the River Warrior's Legend
Players chose to split Bianca's attention between a main focus on befriending the winged lions with a little side-trip to fuck up something powerful's blood-soaked wake-up call. Bianca does not win the trust of the lions and they leave. Bianca reached out again around 220 years after her last contact.

Armed with an indicator species and the function of the liver, Bianca decides that The Problem with Black Hook Bay is something in the water downstream from her smelting sites. She tells the people to move and not use the water in certain places and matters improve.

Bianca invents an alphabet, writes down iron-making instructions, and teaches BHB folk to read. They're a bit excited about being able to write their own names on stuff, but don't use literacy enough to keep it long term

Bianca loses interest in glassmaking after a series of frustrating explosions but the BHB folk are in love with the stuff and are going to try to figure it out for themselves.

Those rare magic livers the BHB folk end up with make them resistant to poisons and are there because Bianca was healing that population for generations.

People the BHB have been stealing from get fed up and follow a Special Kid on a Unicorn to attack the BHB. They get trounced and the BHB gets the Horn of Sheshlan, which has healing powers. They also get a head start on regaining their lost area lore, but kind of fuck that up instead of making progress when they get the chance.

Bianca goes looking for a place to invent farming and picks some nice floodplains with just one problem: a magical river dolphin that fucks up whatever Bianca doesn't ward the fuck out of every time the river floods. She's picked out a grain to focus on and can grow more than she can harvest alone. But she can't get enough to keep people fed year round. She does bring seed back to BHB at unspecified intervals to get more iron for tools.

Bianca kind of raised a Heroic River Warrior and needs to give the woman something to focus on.

Bianca asks the players about handling that very cursed dungeon crawl from last time, the possible murder god's wake-up call that's kind of trying to stop being on hold, that fucking dolphin, and a cache of bog iron up-country that she's been thinking about.

This list is of things that Bianca has described to exist in the setting independently (or -- later in play -- at least seemingly independently) of actions she has taken based on player advice.
  • Language
  • 'Wolves' (dogs)
  • 'Hide' clothing
  • 'Webs of vegetation' clothing
  • Sharp sticks
  • 'Broken rocks' (knapped stone tools and weapons)
  • 'How to live in the places they go' (local plant, animal, mineral, weather, and geographic lore)
  • 'Brimstone' (elemental sulfur at volcanic sites)
  • Murder
  • 'Dragon Glyphs' (actual ideograms (as opposed to logograms) that are used by or the product of magic)
  • 'Counting by dozens, grosses, great gosses, and so on' (base-12 eunmeration)
    • 'Dragon counting' (base-8)
  • 'Bulbs that grow leaves like a hawk's tail' which nearly all people plant wherever they go
  • Spreading the seeds of every plant they use as they travel
  • 'Don't handle shit, don't eat rotten things, & keep the midden away from living spaces ' (very basic hygiene)
  • Rope
  • Gold, silver, iron, and copper (all very rare)
  • Needles
  • Thread
  • 'Boats' (logs that dream of being as cool as caballito de totora but have a long way to go before they get there)
  • 'Webs' (nets, this time)
  • Resource raiding
  • Poisoning
  • 'Sunstead' (understanding of the seasons sufficient to identify a solstice)
  • Bows and arrows
  • Soft metal seen once that might have been lead
  • "Where beasts' seeds fell outside the womb" (ectopic pregnancies in animals)
  • Bees and honey
  • Toys that spin in the wind
  • 'Stones to weigh down webs' (weighted nets)
  • Buckskin tanning
  • Unicorns, horses, and zebras
    • Unicorns are larger than horses, not as robustly build, and have a magic horn
    • Zebras have family dynamics
    • Stallions do not lead horse herds, they herd from the back
  • Hills and walls of ice in high places and far north and south (Glaciers and polar caps)
  • "The world is round like a perfect river stone"
  • "There is something in the work that brains do with substance that touches the Soul Lands"
  • Bone setters (she says people just figure that shit out all the time)
  • Basket fishing and fish weirs
  • Baskets in general
  • Non-domesticated grains, beans, and nuts
  • River dolphins
This list is of things that have been described to Bianca. To let me know about something I missed, PM me a link and a searchable keyword from the passage.
Bianca reports failure
Bianca reports success - Skill exponent opened (if any)
  • Writing
    • Paper
    • Soot ink
    • Printing press
    • Cypher Wheel
  • Farming
    • Irrigation
    • Evolution
    • Selective breeding
    • Food preservation
  • Disease
    • Sickmakers (pathogens)
      • Wound care - Field Dressing
    • Undersuckling (nutritional deficiency)
    • Slow poisons
    • 'Free problems' 'wardful flesh problems' (immune problems)
    • Cankers (cancer)
    • 'Origin problems' (genetic problems)
  • Lye-making - no Skill opened
  • Soap-making - no Skill opened
  • 'The stain' (alcohol) making - Distiller
  • Clay pots and other shapes - Potter
    • Waterproofing clay with ash - no Skill opened
  • Bricks & mortar - Mason
  • 'Rock-cooking tower' (smelter) - Tree Cutter & Miner (kind of incidentally)
  • 'Air-cooking tower' (blast furnace) - no Skill opened
  • 'Bubbling cooking tower' (finery) - no Skill opened
  • Metal
    • Copper
      • Malachite
      • Chalcocite
    • Tin
      • Cassiterite
      • Bronze
    • Zinc
      • Smithsonite and hemimorphite
      • Brass
    • Iron - Blacksmith
      • Magnetite
      • Hematite
      • 'Firm iron' (steel) - no Skill opened
  • 'Blue-making' (steel bluing corrosion protection) - no Skill opened
  • 'Fat on iron' (steel oiling corrosion protection) - no Skill opened
  • 'Blow-bags (bellows) - no Skill opened
  • 'Charred coals' (charcoal) - no Skill opened
  • 'Biters' (tongs) - no Skill opened
  • 'Burning' (annealing)
  • 'Pot-ash-niter crystals' (potassium nitrate) - Munitions
  • 'Outclappers' (explosives)
  • The value of falsifiable claims (Scientific method)
  • 'Improved midden' (covered latrine) - no Skill opened
  • Long bows - Bowyer
  • Fletched arrows - Fletcher
  • 'Trunk and take' (block and tackle and related compound bow)
  • 'returning doves (homing pigeons)
  • Nose and mouth masks when in the presence of sick people
  • Storm signs
    • Birds fly low
    • Smoke stays low
    • People ache more
    • Pests bites more
    • Smells are stronger
    • Clouds that are tall, fast, or change direction
    • Certain people's headaches
  • Volcanos should show up in lines (plate tectonics)
  • Lighting lure - no Skill opened
  • Bog iron - no Skill opened
  • Boats
    • Dugout boats - Boatwright
    • Second boat fastened to first by stout branches (outrigger) - Carpentry
    • Pitch - Pitch Collector
    • Oars - Wood Carving
    • Sail
    • Seabirds fly away from land in the morning and toward it at night
    • Shallow water reflects more light to the underside of clouds
  • Buildings
    • Cob
    • Start walls below the ground (foundations)
    • Fire in home with smoke pipe (fireplace and chimney)
    • Arches - Architect
    • Concrete
  • 'Breaking rock with outclapping stuff' (blast mining with explosives)
  • Tools
    • 'Shover' (shovel)
    • 'Point' (pick)
    • 'Striker' (hoe)
    • 'Cutter' (chisel)
    • Breaking up rocks with fire
    • Hafting by shrinkage and spike and even glue
  • Agriculture
    • Plow
    • 'Dirt making' (compost) - Farming
      • Basket with layers of green & brown, little water, ready 6 months later
    • Use the seeds of the plants that work best
    • Remove undesired plants
    • Mushroom farming - Farmer
  • Grow branches as forms for clay pipes
  • Hills and ravines against flood rivers (levees and canals)
  • 'Fighters that only fight' (Standing army)
    • People should have a plan and a leader they'll listen to if they want to win combat
    • And they should play at fighting to get better at fighting
    • Murder axes should the lighter so they're faster
  • Glassmaking
  • Glue - Mending
  • Liquor social
  • Hypothermia recovery
  • Math
    • Vertical addition
    • Vertical subtraction
    • Partial product multiplication
    • Long division
  • Body weight poison determinism
  • Saltpans - no Skill opened
  • Phonetic alphabet - Read and Write
 
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And guns still dominated all warfare even with those restriction
No, they didn't.

For hundreds of years, gunpowder was a curiosity.

Frankly, we do not have the infrastructure to create a functional gun. We'd (maybe) get a tube that goes bang a bit, but beyond the scare factor it won't do any good.

Not to mention the vast expense of trying to make those weapons.
 
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You can use any explosive in a gun, does not have to be black powder.
J: Actually? You can't. There's a lot more that goes into making a viable propellant than just concocting something that goes bang. You specifically need something that deflagrates rather than detonating. Which isn't anywhere near as simple as you might think. As an example, nitrocellulose is the basis of most modern firearm propellants. Yet if you don't perform very specific drying processes during synthesis, your gun is going to get completely totalled the first time you try to use it.
 
You do know Jordan Peterson is a hack who this board mocks, yeah? He's widely considered a pitiable moron.
Jordan peterson is not a hack, and certainly not a pitiable moron. The only people that can listen to one of his lectures in full and still believe that are completely brainwashed marxists that dogmatically refuse to consider that anything outside of their worldview might be right and that they might be wrong.

I am not saying you are one. I am saying that this opinion you have formed of him is from what the people that lie and slander him at every opportunity have told you about him, which has very little to do with the man himself.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xRtZybpyig

Listen to this man with an open mind, and really think about what he says, try to logically take apart his arguments and suppositions.

What he says is right, or at least not wrong. He is a brilliant, truly great man, a modern day Socrates.

If you are thinking to yourself that I'm obviously an idiot that is caught up in his lies, tell me, which one of us has actually read his book? Which one of us has actually listened to his lectures in full?

Can you even tell me what his positions and philosophies are? Or do you not actually know what he says, and just assumed he's a hack because you saw articles and forum and twitter posts saying he's a hack?

Listen to what the man says in his own words, and judge him by what he actually says and actually does, not by what the rediculous caricature of the man built by hateful enemies say he says and does. Those are two completely different things, let me tell you.

So tell me, what is it that he says that makes him a pitiable moron and a hack? What part of what he says is wrong? Truly, tell me. If you have found a greater, more profound and true philosophy than the one he espouses, I am very, very eager to know about it. Feel free to take this into DMs, I am truly, genuinely curious about it, without any sarcasm or derision in that statement at all.

Jordan peterson has inspired me to read so many books on philosophy, and old religious texts like the Tao Te Ching, and I am always curious to find more and different belief systems and philosophies.

This I why I intend to do a long post on the nature of culture and belief and meaning for Bianca to consider, but I am always open to further expanding my horizons.
 
C: While we have strong opinions on Jordan Peterson, we're going to stay in our lane: gunnery and its underlying chemistry.
Frankly, we do not have the infrastructure to create a functional gun.
T: Incorrect. Requirements to make a functional gun:
- Ferrous metallurgy (possessed by Black Hook Bay, in a rather developed state)
- Sophisticated metalworking tools (provided by Lincolnator)
- Workable propellant recipe (provided in detail in the Gunpost)

T: What is not possessed is the capability to make large numbers of guns. Fortunately, large numbers of guns will not be required for quite a long time.
 
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Frankly, developing guns too early will see us lose the advantage it brings without much gain.

We just don't have the societal organizations or just the plain raw population to really take advantage of the absolute military superiority guns would bring.

Lets please wait until we at least have a standing army and preferably already established a small empire/ kingdom so we could actually leverage its advantages.
 
Frankly, developing guns too early will see us lose the advantage it brings without much gain.

We just don't have the societal organizations or just the plain raw population to really take advantage of the absolute military superiority guns would bring.

Lets please wait until we at least have a standing army and preferably already established a small empire/ kingdom so we could actually leverage its advantages.
C: We'll at least assess the situation as of next turn. It's entirely possible that conditions will be suitable for the Gunpost.

B: By the way, props for being one of the only people to bring an actually sensible argument for not dropping the Gunpost immediately.
 
T: What is not possessed is the capability to make large numbers of guns. Fortunately, large numbers of guns will not be required for quite a long time
Yourentire argument for the advantages of guns rests on them being much easier to train people on.

That is only relevant if we're throwing large quantities of people around. If we're only doing a small number of soldiers, relying on hunters and other natural archers is far cheaper.

Not to mention, that at small scale the benefit of easily trained soldiers is entirely undone by the need to maintain highly trained personnel for artisan manufacturing of the guns themselves.

A small quantity of guns means that our forces get of one volley, miss 95% of their shots, and are then overrun while reloading.
 
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Code:
It may be useful to players to know that I largely
disregard The Jeep because I find his Jungian
perspectives in conflict with a strictly material
universe.

I will admit that sorcery has utility:
placebomancy can be legitimate medicine.

But I think sorcerers as public figures are overall
detrimental to humanity.

If Peterson's content comes up in gameplay, players
presenting it may anticipate demands for extensive
citations outside his or his family's work.

I'm surprised this has come up. I thought this guy
was passé. Shows what I know.
 
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Yourentire argument for the advantages of guns rests on them being much easier to train people on.
C: No? We're arguing for rifles using minie balls. These are not "volley in the general direction" guns. These are guns that shoot accurately, can be fired multiple times per minute with a trained gunner, and utterly ruin people they hit. There is a significant edge in per-shot lethality here, with extra stopping power to boot.
 
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C: No? We're arguing for rifles using minie balls. These are not "volley in the general direction" guns. These are guns that shoot accurately, can be fired multiple times per minute with a trained gunner, and utterly ruin people they hit.
I have serious doubt the production of those is in any way feasible, but we'll see, I guess.
 
If you want a good laugh:

I mean... It is an Oxford Union debate, of course it is silly. Formal debating is a form of ritual argument and has nothing to do with being reasonable, being rational, truth-telling or truth seeking. It is about being persuasive, and part of the game is to take ridiculous positions in debates and try to persuade the audience.

That said, she's not wrong that there is a connection between ideological meatism and colonialism. One of the nutty theories that Europeans invented to try and make sense of how they were able to conquer all these non-Europeans during the 19th Century was that because Europeans ate more meat, it made them more militarily adept. The people who came up with this ideology used this logic to decide that cannibals were therefore the ideal humans.

19th Century Europe was a strange place, for sure.

Please note that ideological meatism is not just liking a steak or bacon. I reckon it's fine to enjoy food, it is part of living a whole and fulfilling life. But making an ideology out of the food we enjoy is just weird and sucks joy from the world.

She has been eating nothing but red meat for years now and is perfectly healthy.

She may claim that, but what evidence do we have of her claims? And if her claims are somewhat true, how long has she eaten a red meat only diet? Many who claim to follow such a diet can't actually stick to it long enough, their body compelling them to seek out dietary diversity before malnutrition seriously hurts them. So the actual diet ends up meat heavy, but not meat exclusive.

And on the other side, there is all of nutritional science that says that eating only red meat is about as smart as trying to eat only potatoes.

You can live off only potatoes for a good while, but there's a limit.

I know there are people who claim that there's evidence for the red meat only diet working, but none of those claims have so far held up to scrutiny.

You do know Jordan Peterson is a hack who this board mocks, yeah? He's widely considered a pitiable moron.

Jordan Peterson taught me to appreciate postmodernism!

I used to be one of these people who thought it was pure drivel (not because I knew anything about it, just because I had a bad case of engineer brain). Then I listened to Jordan Peterson being a postmodernist.

...

Obviously, he is a self-hating postmodernist, and I feel for him. But he did open my mind.

So tell me, what is it that he says that makes him a pitiable moron and a hack?

Well, he did lie about that law in Canada that he used to get famous in the first place. Total hack move.

And he either doesn't understand or wants to obfuscate Hitler's beliefs. Like this is the dumbest load of hooey ever. Hitler was a deeply anti-Semitic man and he didn't think he was fighting a war against the allies of the United Nations. He thought he was fighting a war against the Jews and that once the last Jew was dead, the Soviet Union would collapse and the British and Americans, liberated from Jewish mind control, would thank him for saving them and want to be friends. Hitler may have been a nut and one of the most evil men in history, but saying that he didn't really want to win WW2 is an actual insult to the guy (and to all the people who fought to stop him).

Takes a special sort of person to insult both sides of WW2.

Also, Peterson is a postmodernist who thinks postmodernism is evil. Which is a shame, as I mentioned above, the way he opened my mind was one way he made my life a little better.

No, they didn't.

For hundreds of years, gunpowder was a curiosity.

Indeed, the first illustrations of gunpowder weapons in Europe date back to the 12th Century, there are hints it might have arrived even earlier, to the 11th Century, as those first illustrations are clearly of fairly developed weapons. Gunpowder didn't emerge as the main military technology in Europe until the 17th Century.

It took a lot of developments before the society and technology were in a place where guns made sense.

Again guns are not something we want to spread, their are several thousand of years of weapons and armor advancements we can give that insure military dominance for ages. Once guns are developed the only thing that matters is who has the most people shot with. Guns are not hard to steal, they are ultimately very simple to make.

Thing is, "who has the most people to shoot with" assumes large populations that aren't practicing with the bow or sling for hunting and herding. Then, on top of a large, relatively sheltered population, you need sophisticated manufacturing to replicate. The Japanese were able to copy European muskets after contact with the Portuguese (indeed, they quickly advanced ahead of the state of the art in Europe in musketry). Most societies contemporary either thought muskets weren't very useful, or didn't have the ability to replicate them. It is notable that in the Japanese case, you had a very similar situation to the one in Europe.

L: So, rifles were actually a thing for almost as long as muskets. The problem was loading the blasted things, along with the gun getting fouled. A bullet small enough to muzzle-load easily wouldn't properly engage the rifling. Meanwhile a bullet large enough to engage the rifling would need to be bashed in with a hammer. This largely relegated rifles to use as hubting weapons.

Fair point about earlier hunting rifles. But my point was that before 19th Century military rifles that could be loaded quickly, single people or small groups with firearms weren't very formidable. The Spanish didn't conquer swathes of the Americas because they had gunpowder. They conquered swathes of the Americas through good diplomacy (gaining local allies), steel, horses and plague.

But again, while I think you are being very ambitious here, I don't want to discourage you. I am just saying that I'll be suitably impressed if you can make this work for Bianca!

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Jordan peterson is not a hack, and certainly not a pitiable moron. The only people that can listen to one of his lectures in full and still believe that are completely brainwashed marxists that dogmatically refuse to consider that anything outside of their worldview might be right and that they might be wrong.

I am not saying you are one. I am saying that this opinion you have formed of him is from what the people that lie and slander him at every opportunity have told you about him, which has very little to do with the man himself.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xRtZybpyig

Listen to this man with an open mind, and really think about what he says, try to logically take apart his arguments and suppositions.

What he says is right, or at least not wrong. He is a brilliant, truly great man, a modern day Socrates.

If you are thinking to yourself that I'm obviously an idiot that is caught up in his lies, tell me, which one of us has actually read his book? Which one of us has actually listened to his lectures in full?

Can you even tell me what his positions and philosophies are? Or do you not actually know what he says, and just assumed he's a hack because you saw articles and forum and twitter posts saying he's a hack?

Listen to what the man says in his own words, and judge him by what he actually says and actually does, not by what the rediculous caricature of the man built by hateful enemies say he says and does. Those are two completely different things, let me tell you.

So tell me, what is it that he says that makes him a pitiable moron and a hack? What part of what he says is wrong? Truly, tell me. If you have found a greater, more profound and true philosophy than the one he espouses, I am very, very eager to know about it. Feel free to take this into DMs, I am truly, genuinely curious about it, without any sarcasm or derision in that statement at all.

Jordan peterson has inspired me to read so many books on philosophy, and old religious texts like the Tao Te Ching, and I am always curious to find more and different belief systems and philosophies.

This I why I intend to do a long post on the nature of culture and belief and meaning for Bianca to consider, but I am always open to further expanding my horizons.

You do realize like 80% of the residents of this forum are communists right? I am literally a communist. Like, I don't really feel the need to listen to someone who's repeatedly fucked his health up in the dumbest ways, put himself into a medical coma to get over an addiction, who spreads misinformation against all good science. I don't know that this forum is the place for you, to be quite honest. Jordan Peterson is widely regarded, not just on this forum, but within the wider sane populace, as that crazy weirdo who put himself in a coma and just seems kinda sad.
Oh, and a side note, that video seems to be something about a bible story, very Christian, etc. I'm an atheist who if I had to pick a religion would pick one of the various polytheistic faiths/Buddhism, I'm not particularly interested in that sort of weird Christian YouTuber stuff.
 
I have serious doubt the production of those is in any way feasible, but we'll see, I guess.
L: The bullets at the very least are a simple matter of using a properly shaped mold. Rifling is somewhat harder, but it should be feasible.

Production of the bullets is trivial, as WJW said, but rifling is much simpler to machine than you think.

For one thing, using oval rifling makes a great deal of sense if we use the suage block method, as it has much less issues with fouling than grooves. In the case of minie balls being used with oval rifling, they are even better at self-cleaning the bore of fouling with each shot.

There are 2 ways you could practically machine the rifling, as far as I can see. Suage blocks, and electrochemical machining.

Suage blocks are a hardened steel cylinder that has the negative of the profile and twist of the rifling in it, the whole block is then forced down the bore of a softened barrel blank by an arbor press and metal rods. The profile of the rifling is imprinted inside the barrel as the suage block is forced through.

Electrochemical machining is a very interesting alternative.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSM6fBdmuso

It is, essentially, the reverse of electroplating. One electrode is dissolved away, based on proximity to the tool electrode. The tool electrode is not dissolved by the current, as only the anode is corroded. As the rate of dissolving is proportional to the current experienced by the cathode at any given point on its surface, which is proportional to the resistance of the electrical pathway from the anode to that location.

In plain terms, the part of the cathode part that dissolves away is the part closest to the tool anode. This means that the part cathode will take on the shape of the tool anode.

For rifling, you can twist wires in a spiral that matches the grooves of the rifling that you want around a wooden dowel, put the tool electrode centered in the barrel, hook up a DC power source to the wires and barrel, and pump NaOH solution through the barrel with a small pump, cycling into a bucket.

Given some time, you end up with a rifling profile etched into the inside of the barrel.

Edit: please ignore my complete butchery of which electrode is the anode and cathode
 
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Jordan peterson is not a hack, and certainly not a pitiable moron. The only people that can listen to one of his lectures in full and still believe that are completely brainwashed marxists that dogmatically refuse to consider that anything outside of their worldview might be right and that they might be wrong
Once you look at something were scientific consensus is estabilished, like DNA, hormones, climate change, you quickly see Peterson just making shit up.

So why trust him in other fields?
 
The problem with literally all of this gun talk is that all of these will have windage out of the ass. To make good guns you need accurate drills, which need the math and skilled labour to make them, which we all lack because, again, these people have not yet even figured out how to be sedetary. If you want bianca to havw a thunderstick, thats fine, but there is not enough people, orginazation or surpluss to go around and there won't be for quite a while to make good guns and you need good guns if you don't simply use more guns for which, again, we lavk people or organization.

Oh, a fun fact though: The same technology to make good pressure vessels for steam engines makes good barrels because those are just pressure vessels that are open on one end. Its part of why gun technology had a massive explosion during the industrial revolution and many factories that made one made the other.
 
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The problem with literally all of this gun talk is that all of these will have windage out of the ass.
L: Fortunately, the minie ball drastically loosens the required manufacturing tolerances. Also, we'll be amending the Gunpost to include an actual historical tool for rifling barrels. Apologies to @Lincolnator, but it will be for grooves, rather than elliptical rifling.
 
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J: Going to request that the Jordan Peterson debate be taken elsewhere, please.
I can concur with this, I will take any further discussion into DMs, and invite anyone who want to discuss this further to my DMs.

And on the other side, there is all of nutritional science that says that eating only red meat is about as smart as trying to eat only potatoes.
I know there are people who claim that there's evidence for the red meat only diet working, but none of those claims have so far held up to scrutiny.

If you notice, included in the link right before the Mikhaila video is an actual scientific article on the ketogenic diet.

I can go and try to find the original study paper Mikhaila talks about with the 80% of participants seeing significant relief from chronic illnesses as a result, but that will take time to dig up, as I don't have a link to it.
 
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G: We're gonna make a draft of another post (in addition to the gunpost)
Junction speaking. It occurs to us that there are some useful things that can be done with un-bubbled - cast - iron, where its brittleness is not a serious concern. For these uses, only needing to heat and pour the molten iron once greatly reduces the resources and labor involved in production of iron implements.

Weights are one such example, but much more relevant is cooking pans and pots. A cooking pan or pot made from iron has several advantages; it can withstand high heat without much issue, heat flows through the metal leading to more even cooking, and this increased heat conduction also allows for a delightful crispy outer layer on cooked meats.

As a final step in the production of cast-iron cookware, cook on some oil or fat, let it cool, and repeat this process a few times. This produces a protective layer that both protects against rust and reduces the tendency of food to stick to hot metal.

On that note, the main topic of this message: methods for reducing the rate at which people get sick from their food, and preserving it for a long period time. Also a specific type of fireplace designed to make very efficient use of fuel when cooking.

Starting with the cooking, particularly with meat. Until the introduction of tools to measure a large piece of meat's internal temperature (which we do know how to make), it is better to avoid the slightest possibility of undercooking, rather than taking the risk of someone becoming ill. We know two methods of cooking that are very well-suited to this goal: stir-fry, and prolonged boiling. A long-handled spoon is useful for both of these methods.

When stir-frying, the food is first cut into small pieces, then stirred around inside a cast-iron pan over high heat, usually with additional oil to promote crisping and improve the pan's non-stick properties. The small size of each food piece means that the changes that take place during cooking are plainly visible to the cook. To be absolutely certain that the meat pieces are cooked all the way through, the cook should periodically split one of the bigger pieces with their stirring spoon; until this stops revealing raw meat, the meal is undercooked.

Prolonged boiling meanwhile operates on the simple logic that since water is very difficult to heat, the food will heat at roughly the same rate as the water. So food that's been fully immersed in boiling water for a while is almost certainly hot enough to be safe to eat. That said, boiling in water won't produce a crispy layer on the outside of the food like stir-frying would. Boiling in oil can do that, though, as oil boils at a higher temperature than water.

Safety note: extinguish oil fires by using a lid to remove their air supply, rather than by applying water. Pouring water on an oil fire splashes burning oil everywhere, producing a sudden fireball.

Now for the principles for the fireplace design: As wood is burnt up, it releases combustible gasses. In a conventional cookfire, these gasses don't have time to burn before reaching the food, wasting heat potential and also potentially exposing people to poisonous gasses if cooking was done in an enclosed space. By introducing additional air after the firewood, inducing a draft, and having additional distance between wood and cooking space, these gasses can be fully burned, roughly doubling the heat which can be extracted from a given amount of firewood.

A workable design using these principles follows.

The structure should be made of mortared brick or fired mud. The firebox is at the bottom of a reasonably tall insulated chimney, and a bit off to the side. The fuel (narrow pieces of wood) is inserted at the bottom, and the fuel opening is left open for air to be sucked in. The firebox should be about as long as someone's forearm before the chimney, so as to ensure the air is flowing at a high enough speed when it reaches the fuel. After the firebox, additional air holes at the base of the chimney do a lot to improve total combustion of the unburnt wood gas.

At the top of the chimney (which should be at a comfortable working height for a cook), a supported iron ring holds the cooking pan or pot a bit above the top, allowing for the exhaust gasses to flow around the cookware.

The usability of the stove can be improved by including an angled chute people can insert firewood into without needing to bend over. This chute needs to have a lid so that when not in use it can be closed, forcing the stove to use its primary air intake. Ideally, the fuel chute should deposit the fuel just before the airflow starts going up the chimney.

If built correctly, no visible flame should come out the top of the stove's chimney. The output should just be a large quantity of heat, possibly a small quantity of ash blown by the stove's draft.

A chimney leading to the outdoors above the stove is still highly recommended for health and safety, if using an enclosed kitchen.

You may note that we described a similar principle some time ago, when we described the dual-channel chimney and hearth for efficiently warming a living space.

Now for food preservation. We will be describing canning for general use. We will also be noting a variety of techniques specifically useful for preserving the substances in fruit that prevent and cure scurvy. Canning specifically benefits greatly from glass jars, and requires either wax or resin between jar and lid to ensure the jars seal properly. That said, other materials for jars could probably work; even iron, though that could be troublesome to open.

The idea behind canning is fairly straightforward; most food spoilage is caused by living organisms too small to see. Living organisms do not usually arise spontaneously. So if you have food in a completely sealed container and kill everything in that container, the food will not go bad for a very long time. For food which is acidic, submerging the jars in boiling water is adequate, provided there is an appropriate layer of wax or resin between jar and lid, and both are made from airtight material.

Not all acidic foods actually taste particularly sour; food's acidity can be assessed by adding a small drop of lye water to a sample of the food in question. The more vigorously the lye and food react, the more acidic the food in question is.

Clean the jars shortly before putting the food in them. A supporting grate to suspend the bottom of the jars a bit off the bottom of the boiling pot is also recommended, as is not filling the jars all the way up to the seal with the lid; a bit of air space is needed to avoid problems.

Food which is not acidic will need to be gotten hotter; certain sickness-causing microbes have heat-resistant spores, which can survive regular boiling temperatures in the absence of acid. Fortunately, water can be kept from boiling above its normal boiling temperature, provided that there is nowhere for the steam to go.

This calls for a pressure canner, a boiling pot with very particular features we will now describe. The accumulated steam inside the canner will produce considerable force, which would normally lead to the lid being shoved off. This needs to be prevented from happening; vertical flanges with holes in them on both the pot and lid will allow for them to be held together via the insertion of a steel peg through the hole, while a leather ring squeezed between pot and lid will block escaping steam.

There is one remaining consideration: the force inside the pressure canner exceeding what the materials can handle, thus blasting everyone in the vicinity with superheated steam and water. A safety pressure release in the lid is thus necessary; this is a small hole in the lid, into which a wooden plug is hammered as tightly as it will go. The idea is that if the pressure gets too high, the plug will fail first, resulting in all the dangerous scalding steam being vented away from the cooks.

While not strictly necessary for pressure canning, a temperature-measuring device welded to the lid is quite helpful. At its core, this calls for a flexible steel strip that has been dunked in molten copper, then had all the copper scraped off one side. Different metals expand at different rates when exposed to heat, so by bonding these two metals so tightly together, you produce a strip that flexes in predictable ways as the temperature changes. These bimetallic strips can even be bent into a spiral and made to turn an indicator at the center of a round dial, for convenient temperature measurement.

On a thermometer's dial, mark down the point at which water freezes, water's regular boiling point at sea level, and a further third point about a sixth of the distance between water freezing and boiling, beyond the boiling point. For successful pressure canning, the canner's temperature needs to exceed the third point, and stay beyond it for considerable time. Fortunately, pressure canning doesn't require the jars to be fully submerged in water, allowing the canner to heat up faster.

Now, Vitamin C measures.
 
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Now for the fireplace design: The idea is that the firebox is at the bottom of a reasonably tall insulated chimney; mortared brick or fired mud would both serve this purpose. The fuel (narrow pieces of wood) is inserted at the bottom, and the fuel opening is left open for air to be sucked in. At the top of the chimney (which should be at a comfortable working height for a cook), a supported iron ring holds the cooking pan or pot a bit above the top, allowing for the heat and exhaust gasses to flow around the cookware.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMEry1Nvl0o

If you are making a rocket stove, it is a good idea for the firebox to be horizontal and long before it goes vertical to the chimney, so that air is pulled over the burning fuel at high speed to increase combustion efficiency.

Essentially, have a horizontal tunnel with roughly forearm length or longer, but on its side as the firebox.

Also, having some air holes at the base of the chimney further increases efficiency, as it lets fresh air in to burn the pyrolosis gases more completely in the chimney.

You can also have a diagonal feed chute with a door to make loading fuel easier and more convenient.

Your design would still work, but fuel efficiency is far more important for them because firewood collection is very labor intensive. More effort with the stove design to make it more efficient is paid back with much interest in the saved labor due to reduced fuel consumption.

Now for food preservation. We will be describing two methods: canning and syruping. Canning is useful for more foods, while syruping is specifically useful for preserving the substances in fruit that prevent and cure scurvy. Both methods benefit greatly from glass jars, and require either wax or resin to ensure the jars seal properly. That said, other materials for jars could probably work; even iron, though that could be troublesome to open.

Have we told her how to preserve meat and fish using sea salt?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNJ_FK9132I

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N-6KBUXzE4

And, more specifically, how to get sea salt easily in large quantities using evaporation pools?
 
If you are making a rocket stove, it is a good idea for the firebox to be horizontal and long before it goes vertical to the chimney, so that air is pulled over the burning fuel at high speed to increase combustion efficiency.

Essentially, have a horizontal tunnel with roughly forearm length or longer, but on its side as the firebox.

Also, having some air holes at the base of the chimney further increases efficiency, as it lets fresh air in to burn the pyrolosis gases more completely in the chimney.

You can also have a diagonal feed chute with a door to make loading fuel easier and more convenient.

Your design would still work, but fuel efficiency is far more important for them because firewood collection is very labor intensive. More effort with the stove design to make it more efficient is paid back with much interest in the saved labor due to reduced fuel consumption.
E: Good add, will revise instructions.

I: @Lincolnator we've revised the rocket stove plans, if you want to take a look.
Have we told her how to preserve meat and fish using sea salt?
And, more specifically, how to get sea salt easily in large quantities using evaporation pools?
N: I do believe the salt pans have been covered at least (check the summary tech list). Not sure about salting meat to preserve it.
 
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we've revised the rocket stove plans, if you want to take a look.
The usability of the stove can be improved by including an angled chute people can insert firewood into without needing to bend over. This chute needs to have a lid so that when not in use it can be closed, forcing the stove to use its primary air intake. A separate fuel chute also allows the air intake to be made narrower; this increases the airflow velocity across the wood, which is desirable.
It's pretty good, but the opening shouldn't be narrowed. You also don't describe where the fuel chute should enter the firebox.

Also, here is a demo of a similar design's use, that is less efficient than the fuel chute to the tunnel firebox model described (that is from a later video after much improvement to the design) with a measure of exactly how much fuel was used to cook dinner with the stove:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtc7JdspIUI
 
It's pretty good, but the opening shouldn't be narrowed. You also don't describe where the fuel chute should enter the firebox.

Also, here is a demo of a similar design's use, that is less efficient than the fuel chute to the tunnel firebox model described (that is from a later video after much improvement to the design) with a measure of exactly how much fuel was used to cook dinner with the stove:
E: Thanks for the catch, corrected.
 
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