What Can SV Teach an Sorcerer in the Mesolithic?

0. Status, Basics, Summaries, & Tech List
0
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                         NOTICES
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Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (Bianca does NOT hear what you write right now)
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Next story update : soon, I hope
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 2,724 words
We're on step 5: reading & composition of in-line replies
Total words in 'what Bianca's been told' notes : 3,119
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Anything I post that's not in vote options, quote boxes,
code blocks or in spoilers may be understood to be said
by Bianca.
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Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
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You can quote other sources, but I don't want this to 
turn into Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources. When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.

Please do not use Large Language Model assistants like
ChatGPT or similar to compose your effortposts. I mean
for this game to be about communication, not prompt
engineering.

Thank you.



Check the summaries in this status post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

If you're not already involved in the game and you want to get right into it without digging through the back catalog, consider doing this:
  1. Read the summaries in this Status Post.
  2. Pull up the latest Threadmark.
  3. Skip to the line that says "B R E A K."
  4. Skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

If there's no Closing The Vote post in the Informationals corresponding to the latest Threadmarks, then the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude and Bianca will hear what you post, unless you post inside spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude.

If the game is not in a Cacophonous Interlude, you can still post. It's just that Bianca can't hear you. You might still want to post so you can coordinate with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans. You can compose a message to Bianca all whether or not the game is in a Cacophonous Interlude. And once the game returns to a Cacophonous Interlude, you can vote and/or send a message to Bianca by creating a post in the thread.

If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them. I should find the 'how to vote' general post and link it here, I guess.

If you want to send a message to Bianca, keep in mind that she is a creature of another time. She may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to Bianca, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of her understanding of the world. You might even need to consider her biases and values.

I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of Bianca and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell her.

Bianca has different values than we do. She has different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Her goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But she wants power and will listen most attentively to players that tell her how to get more of or closer to what she wants.

Keep in mind that you players are not trusted advisors. You're the Astute Cacophony: voices that Bianca mostly can't tell apart from each other.

If the total amount of player-generated content gets to be more than I can handle either because there are so many players or because player posts get so long, I will set a cap. At this time, I intend that the cap will be some total number of characters, with each player who speaks to Bianca having access to an equal share. Unused share gets divided up among the rest of the players until it runs out. If each player's share seems too small, I will also set a limit on the number of players Bianca will hear in a Cacophonous Interlude. And priority will be assigned based on post order.

I guess ideally the story doesn't attract so many people who want to guide the uplift that I have to set these limits.

I do not at this time plan to set a limit on voting players. I don't see how that could get out of hand on a niche quest like this.
  1. I post and Threadmark a story update that has 3 parts:
    • Bianca's responses to player posts made during the last Cacophonous Interlude, followed by 'B R E A K'
    • An update by Bianca following a hiatus of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what she believes is worth mentioning
    • Requests by Bianca for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
  2. Following each story update, players' posts are audible to Bianca until voting is closed.
    This is the Cacophonous Interlude.
    • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
    • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
    • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with me and with each other without doing so in ways Bianca can hear.
  3. When votes are tallied, I collect player posts in an Informational so that it may be known what Bianca heard.
    • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting for. And only effectively identical write-ins accumulate votes.
    • You can vote your own write-in any time you want anyway, of course.
  4. I collect player posts and post them in the vote results for reference. This is the point where what is said in the Cacophonous Interlude is locked in.
  5. I read player posts, take notes, determine what Bianca already thinks she knows, and compose Bianca's in-line replies to those posts that invite replies.
  6. I research player advice, claims, and suggestions, check my notes for precedent, determine what Bianca's right or wrong about, how likely she is to engage with the topic, how likely Blanca's followers are to follow through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be, later in the narrative.
  7. When the narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, I devise tests for Bianca or other characters and make those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
    • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew that's mostly the Burning Wheel system, notably including War and Factions from the Burning Wheel Anthology -- which I really, really would have benefitted from the last time around -- on d10s with different 'shade' ranges (see below), no Artha, no Beliefs or Instincts, no Stock-exclusive skills, probably no Emotional Attributes, and clocks from Blades in the Dark because setting automation is fantastic. (The Burning Wheel is a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
      • I will post the dice, threshold of success, and results of each test before rolling it.
      • Tests may:
        • Be made by rolling one of an entity's attributes against a static target, or may
        • Be made by two entities each rolling one of their attributes where the one with the greater result wins to some degree, and may
        • Have absolute results, or may
        • Have tiered results, and may
        • Result in pyrrhic victories or welcome defeats.
      • The rules being used and followed will be described in each Informational in which tests are made.
      • Normal mortals count 7s and better toward success.
      • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better toward success, so long as what they're doing aligns with their heroism or their magical theme.
      • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better toward success, so long as what they're doing aligns with their divine heritage.
      • Gods and count 4s and better toward success, as do their avatars, so long as what the avatar is doing aligns with the god's domains.
      • Gods count 3s and better toward success when what they're going aligns with their domains.
      • 1s and 2s never count toward success.
      • Sorcery, other magic skills, and some magical tools lower the threshold of success by a non-cumulative 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are or are essential to the skill being tested, not when they help with other skills. Players may note that a god's threshold of success when they are acting within their domain does not improve when they use magic or magical tools.
      • Helping dice provided by magic, magical items, tame (not domesticated) warbeasts larger than hounds, or any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow roll an additional die after each 9 or 10 and keep counting successes. Further 9s & 10s lead to further rolls. Unless the magic, magical item, or incendiary device is the product of an especially refined industry or practice (no exceptions for non-domesticated big warbeasts -- if the animal is dangerous to the enemy it is dangerous to everyone), these same helping dice cancel successes on 1s & 2s and roll another die for each 1 or 2. Additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2s, 9s, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, when a 9 or 10 on a helping die from war elephants provides an additional die and that die rolls a 1 or 2, that doesn't cancel successes or lead to further additional dice.
    • When players expect a test -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they might be able to add helping dice to the test by providing Bianca with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. Often, decent advice adds dice. Sometimes good advice may outright guarantee success, preventing the test entirely.
    • I'm going to have to choose some kind of accumulation-of-progress-toward-a-goal mechanic that fits the faction clocks from Burning Wheel but I'm not sure about how that's going to work right now. Maybe Conflicts from Mouseguard or Torchbearer?
    • Similarly, since this is an uplift quest and players will often provide incomplete but potentially sufficient information, some kind of test will be needed to see if Bianca and/or her minions are able to fill in the gaps and implement the desired technology. This is probably just going to be some skill test with a high obstacle and not-a-complete-failure thresholds that make the next test easier and whoops-all-on-fire-now thresholds that make the next test harder.
  8. I compose Bianca's post-hiatus update, new questions for vote, and new vote options.
  9. GOTO 1
Bianca will be the only character the players will directly interact with in this game.

Bianca is a human-shaped interface in the material world for a powerful soul entity. She's smaller than most of the human and human-like people she's met. And her phenotypic expression is unique from all surviving human-like populations. She looks really old and she'll tell you that she wears it well.

Bianca has magical abilities related to her original function as a vault guardian for her missing maker. She has other magical abilities related to the hundreds of years she spent traveling the world after she gave up waiting on her maker. As a being of divine heritage, Bianca counts 6s and better as successes on all tests. The nature of her divine heritage means she counts 5s and better as successes if what she's doing is related to getting into god crypts or similar, keeping others from getting into the same, or awakening great soul-things that have been cut off from the material world since the last time magic wasn't forbidden by reality. Other applications exist and haven't appeared in the game.

Bianca needs to return to the vault that her maker entrusted to her every few years for magical maintenance on her material form. She's pretty sure that if her material form is destroyed without injuring her soul and the stuff in that vault is intact she can rebuild her material 'body.'

Bianca has claimed to perform Soul Magic, Wayfinding Magic, and Healing Magic. She can also enchant objects under unspecified circumstances.

Despite sacrificing autonomy to connect with the Astute Cacophony, Bianca values her independence.

1. Era Choice
Bianca woke up from a long time when magic didn't work. Afterward, she spent about 900 years in the place where she woke, which the god who made her told her to guard before everyone who couldn't survive without magic went into some kind of hibernation. Then Bianca traveled the world for around another 900 years. She found people who didn't have magic. She didn't find any gods.

Bianca understands that the players can't tell her about the setting's magical systems. She wants power and wants the players to tell her how to get power in the material world.

There's stuff in Bianca's Vault that does things she understands, and more that she doesn't.

Bianca asks the players when the game should start.
2. Three Quests at the Dawn of the World
The players choose the Stone Age, but just barely.

Bianca starts with two magic items: the Red Knife, a very nice Acheulean hand axe enchanted to keep its edge and not break; and the Coat of Two Suns, a shimmery cloak made from the hide of an unspecified magical creature ("swift running beasts that shimmer like water") enchanted to smell good and be soft.

The players give Bianca a lot of advice. More than one suggest iron, which Bianca says she'll try to get.

Bianca spends around 400 years getting pottery working, finding iron ore, figuring out iron smelting and fining, making soap, figuring out clay pot distillation of alcohol, obtaining potassium nitrite, and figuring out steel bluing.

There's a community of fishers in a bay near where she's digging up ore. She pulls them into her shenanigans. The place they live is called Black Hook Bay.

Bianca enchants the best blued steel 'knife' she made like her Red Knife. It's called the Black Knife now.

The combination of the pescatarian lure of (mostly) relatively easy meat and the steel tools Bianca has given them and has taught them to make keeps the Black Hook Bay people around longer than the land will endure with grace. They've grown in number and overstayed their time such that they've cleared out medicinal and essential nutrition plants from the area. Also, they lost knowledge of a lot of them.

(Un?)fortunately, their neighbors are within reach for young people with iron weapons and bright ideas. So raids are solving some problems and creating others.

Bianca has asked the players which of three tasks she should undertake: very cursed dungeon crawl, suborn a murderous cult trying to summon the kind of god murderous cults summon, or befriend some monsters who aren't finding a place for themselves in a world after they went through some big changes.
3. Launching the River Warrior's Legend
Players chose to split Bianca's attention between a main focus on befriending the winged lions with a little side-trip to fuck up something powerful's blood-soaked wake-up call. Bianca does not win the trust of the lions and they leave. Bianca reached out again around 220 years after her last contact.

Armed with an indicator species and the function of the liver, Bianca decides that The Problem with Black Hook Bay is something in the water downstream from her smelting sites. She tells the people to move and not use the water in certain places and matters improve.

Bianca invents an alphabet, writes down iron-making instructions, and teaches BHB folk to read. They're a bit excited about being able to write their own names on stuff, but don't use literacy enough to keep it long term

Bianca loses interest in glassmaking after a series of frustrating explosions but the BHB folk are in love with the stuff and are going to try to figure it out for themselves.

Those rare magic livers the BHB folk end up with make them resistant to poisons and are there because Bianca was healing that population for generations.

People the BHB have been stealing from get fed up and follow a Special Kid on a Unicorn to attack the BHB. They get trounced and the BHB gets the Horn of Sheshlan, which has healing powers. They also get a head start on regaining their lost area lore, but kind of fuck that up instead of making progress when they get the chance.

Bianca goes looking for a place to invent farming and picks some nice floodplains with just one problem: a magical river dolphin that fucks up whatever Bianca doesn't ward the fuck out of every time the river floods. She's picked out a grain to focus on and can grow more than she can harvest alone. But she can't get enough to keep people fed year round. She does bring seed back to BHB at unspecified intervals to get more iron for tools.

Bianca kind of raised a Heroic River Warrior and needs to give the woman something to focus on.

Bianca asks the players about handling that very cursed dungeon crawl from last time, the possible murder god's wake-up call that's kind of trying to stop being on hold, that fucking dolphin, and a cache of bog iron up-country that she's been thinking about.

This list is of things that Bianca has described to exist in the setting independently (or -- later in play -- at least seemingly independently) of actions she has taken based on player advice.
  • Language
  • 'Wolves' (dogs)
  • 'Hide' clothing
  • 'Webs of vegetation' clothing
  • Sharp sticks
  • 'Broken rocks' (knapped stone tools and weapons)
  • 'How to live in the places they go' (local plant, animal, mineral, weather, and geographic lore)
  • 'Brimstone' (elemental sulfur at volcanic sites)
  • Murder
  • 'Dragon Glyphs' (actual ideograms (as opposed to logograms) that are used by or the product of magic)
  • 'Counting by dozens, grosses, great gosses, and so on' (base-12 eunmeration)
    • 'Dragon counting' (base-8)
  • 'Bulbs that grow leaves like a hawk's tail' which nearly all people plant wherever they go
  • Spreading the seeds of every plant they use as they travel
  • 'Don't handle shit, don't eat rotten things, & keep the midden away from living spaces ' (very basic hygiene)
  • Rope
  • Gold, silver, iron, and copper (all very rare)
  • Needles
  • Thread
  • 'Boats' (logs that dream of being as cool as caballito de totora but have a long way to go before they get there)
  • 'Webs' (nets, this time)
  • Resource raiding
  • Poisoning
  • 'Sunstead' (understanding of the seasons sufficient to identify a solstice)
  • Bows and arrows
  • Soft metal seen once that might have been lead
  • "Where beasts' seeds fell outside the womb" (ectopic pregnancies in animals)
  • Bees and honey
  • Toys that spin in the wind
  • 'Stones to weigh down webs' (weighted nets)
  • Buckskin tanning
  • Unicorns, horses, and zebras
    • Unicorns are larger than horses, not as robustly build, and have a magic horn
    • Zebras have family dynamics
    • Stallions do not lead horse herds, they herd from the back
  • Hills and walls of ice in high places and far north and south (Glaciers and polar caps)
  • "The world is round like a perfect river stone"
  • "There is something in the work that brains do with substance that touches the Soul Lands"
  • Bone setters (she says people just figure that shit out all the time)
  • Basket fishing and fish weirs
  • Baskets in general
  • Non-domesticated grains, beans, and nuts
  • River dolphins
This list is of things that have been described to Bianca. To let me know about something I missed, PM me a link and a searchable keyword from the passage.
Bianca reports failure
Bianca reports success - Skill exponent opened (if any)
  • Writing
    • Paper
    • Soot ink
    • Printing press
    • Cypher Wheel
  • Farming
    • Irrigation
    • Evolution
    • Selective breeding
    • Food preservation
  • Disease
    • Sickmakers (pathogens)
      • Wound care - Field Dressing
    • Undersuckling (nutritional deficiency)
    • Slow poisons
    • 'Free problems' 'wardful flesh problems' (immune problems)
    • Cankers (cancer)
    • 'Origin problems' (genetic problems)
  • Lye-making - no Skill opened
  • Soap-making - no Skill opened
  • 'The stain' (alcohol) making - Distiller
  • Clay pots and other shapes - Potter
    • Waterproofing clay with ash - no Skill opened
  • Bricks & mortar - Mason
  • 'Rock-cooking tower' (smelter) - Tree Cutter & Miner (kind of incidentally)
  • 'Air-cooking tower' (blast furnace) - no Skill opened
  • 'Bubbling cooking tower' (finery) - no Skill opened
  • Metal
    • Copper
      • Malachite
      • Chalcocite
    • Tin
      • Cassiterite
      • Bronze
    • Zinc
      • Smithsonite and hemimorphite
      • Brass
    • Iron - Blacksmith
      • Magnetite
      • Hematite
      • 'Firm iron' (steel) - no Skill opened
  • 'Blue-making' (steel bluing corrosion protection) - no Skill opened
  • 'Fat on iron' (steel oiling corrosion protection) - no Skill opened
  • 'Blow-bags (bellows) - no Skill opened
  • 'Charred coals' (charcoal) - no Skill opened
  • 'Biters' (tongs) - no Skill opened
  • 'Burning' (annealing)
  • 'Pot-ash-niter crystals' (potassium nitrate) - Munitions
  • 'Outclappers' (explosives)
  • The value of falsifiable claims (Scientific method)
  • 'Improved midden' (covered latrine) - no Skill opened
  • Long bows - Bowyer
  • Fletched arrows - Fletcher
  • 'Trunk and take' (block and tackle and related compound bow)
  • 'returning doves (homing pigeons)
  • Nose and mouth masks when in the presence of sick people
  • Storm signs
    • Birds fly low
    • Smoke stays low
    • People ache more
    • Pests bites more
    • Smells are stronger
    • Clouds that are tall, fast, or change direction
    • Certain people's headaches
  • Volcanos should show up in lines (plate tectonics)
  • Lighting lure - no Skill opened
  • Bog iron - no Skill opened
  • Boats
    • Dugout boats - Boatwright
    • Second boat fastened to first by stout branches (outrigger) - Carpentry
    • Pitch - Pitch Collector
    • Oars - Wood Carving
    • Sail
    • Seabirds fly away from land in the morning and toward it at night
    • Shallow water reflects more light to the underside of clouds
  • Buildings
    • Cob
    • Start walls below the ground (foundations)
    • Fire in home with smoke pipe (fireplace and chimney)
    • Arches - Architect
    • Concrete
  • 'Breaking rock with outclapping stuff' (blast mining with explosives)
  • Tools
    • 'Shover' (shovel)
    • 'Point' (pick)
    • 'Striker' (hoe)
    • 'Cutter' (chisel)
    • Breaking up rocks with fire
    • Hafting by shrinkage and spike and even glue
  • Agriculture
    • Plow
    • 'Dirt making' (compost) - Farming
      • Basket with layers of green & brown, little water, ready 6 months later
    • Use the seeds of the plants that work best
    • Remove undesired plants
    • Mushroom farming - Farmer
  • Grow branches as forms for clay pipes
  • Hills and ravines against flood rivers (levees and canals)
  • 'Fighters that only fight' (Standing army)
    • People should have a plan and a leader they'll listen to if they want to win combat
    • And they should play at fighting to get better at fighting
    • Murder axes should the lighter so they're faster
  • Glassmaking
  • Glue - Mending
  • Liquor social
  • Hypothermia recovery
  • Math
    • Vertical addition
    • Vertical subtraction
    • Partial product multiplication
    • Long division
  • Body weight poison determinism
  • Saltpans - no Skill opened
  • Phonetic alphabet - Read and Write
 
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Domesticated Animals also a literally irreplacable source of military and industrial power until the society grows to such a point hat we can start replacing them with combustion engines. (And even then, horses were an important part in both until well after ww2 even in very industrialized societies)

Also, another lol, lmao at saying that domestication is purely a european thing, as if domesticated horses didn't come from the eurasian steppe, india didn't domesticate elephants and literally everyone domesticated sheep, chiken and pigs.

Jesus.
 
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Yeah, chickens are literally a South-East Asian jungle bird, they were domesticated all the way over there and then promptly got exported literally everywhere.
And sheep are incredibly useful for wool of course. Plant fibers can't replace it, it's very much its own, highly useful material.

Edit: Oh, and of course there's the vitamin issue. A purely vegetarian diet has a very hard time getting certain key vitamins. It's not impossible, but it's a massive pain, and a lot more difficult than just eating meat. Works best in a more developed civilization with better knowledge and infrastructure.
 
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C: Meanwhile, we're trying to sequence break firearms development all the way to the Crimean War era in one go. Hence the Gunpost.
 
A radical thought. Could we try to avoid evils of animal domestication? Focus 99% on plants?

Many players push for shiny "progress" instead of like thinking about alternative healthy and less harmful ways

Like OK... domesticate perhaps 1 animal like horse for work... but refrain from pigs (unhealthy disease source) and food uses. Try to embrace vegetarian ways early??

south america had only llama and they were fine with their llama

Is there a need to copy all western mistakes?

It does depend on local resources. For example, it's much easier to create a vegetarian society in a subtropical climate than it is in a colder climate.

Also, the genetic and archaeological evidence we have points to many of the domestic relationships humans have weren't exactly things humans decided to do, rather, animals decided that humans were a nice ecological niche to occupy, and thus occupied us (like dogs, cats, rats and mice). Or, like the case of reindeer, humans managing the populations of animals they hunted gradually over thousands of years led to closer and closer association between species. You can see similar relationships between species all through the natural world - like ants who herd aphids or farm fungus, or single celled cilliates who keep symbiotic photosynthetic bacteria on their bodies. Domestication is just symbiosis or parasitism that we tell ourselves that we are in control of. But the other species in the relationship have a say as well.

As such, how would Bianca stop humans from taking advantage of the animals that adopt them? It's one thing to steer a culture away from forcing birds that they find stealing from the granary to fight to the death for people's amusement (like happened to chickens, first domesticated as fighting animals) it's quite another to convince them that they shouldn't take advantage of the tasty eggs or keep them as pets or use their meat and feathers after they've killed the bird to protect their food.

Also, pigs aren't any dirtier than we are, or dogs are. They wallow in mud in farm yards because pigs are descended from wild boars that were adapted to cool shady forests. So when left under the beating sun with no shade, they are desperate to get cool and wallow in whatever can cool them down. Rolling around in your own feces is better than baking slowly under the sun. And their meat isn't any more likely to give you diseases than the meat of any other mammal is.

(Heck, just in general eating raw or uncooked meat will mean you catch alot of parasites. Mild trichinosis infections were normal throughout human history, even in cultures that didn't have pigs, for the same reason that wolves and lions and pretty much every other mammal that eats mammal meat host the parasites - being a predator is a good way for parasites to find you, whether you avoid pigs or not.)

Like alot of animals, pigs are pretty intelligent and delightful, if they can live a good life in a good environment.

lol. lmao.

"The evils of domestication."

Eh. Part of the fun of questing is the wish fulfillment.

I may be skeptical about if it is even possible to have Bianca discourage people from domesticating things successfully, but I don't think it is a goal any more silly than trying to teach mesolithic people how to make firearms. If @devilgirl666 can figure out a way for a prohibition against domestication to work for Bianca and her humans, I'll be as impressed as I will be if @We Just Write can guide her pre-agricultural guns!

Skipping animal power and going straight for wind and water power as ways to supplement human muscle power would certainly be an interesting challenge.

lmao at saying that domestication is purely a european thing, as if domesticated horses didn't come from the eurasian steppe, india didn't domesticate elephants and literally everyone domesticated sheep, chiken and pigs.

Truth. Let me see... There's also turkeys in North America, guinea pigs in South America, camels in Arabia and Central Asia, dogs in Siberia, cats in Syria, cows in India and Anatolia, sheep also in Anatolia... Ummm. I am sure I am missing a bunch too.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Domesticated Animals also a literally irreplacable source of military and industrial power until the society grows to such a point hat we can start replacing them with combustion engines. (And even then, horses were an important part in both until well after ww2 even in very industrialized societies)

Also, another lol, lmao at saying that domestication is purely a european thing, as if domesticated horses didn't come from the eurasian steppe, india didn't domesticate elephants and literally everyone domesticated sheep, chiken and pigs.

Jesus.
Code:
I will appreciate it if you treat each other more
kindly and with greater courtesy.
As I understand it, Indian elephants famously aren't domesticated, only tamed. Their slow maturation and the great aggression of the bulls during must complicate the process.

And there are few-to-no surviving European domestication events from prehistory. Whatever progress had been made was lost when the Mesolithic people of the area were wiped out by Neolithic invaders. Those people brought all the domesticated plants and animals they needed with them from Western Asia. (The wheel-using Yamnaya or Proto-Indo-Europeans who next invaded didn't change the domestication scene much because they mostly used the same plants and animals.)
 
C: @fasquardon it's worth remembering that the technologies available have already been subject to serious sequence breaking. Namely, steel. And from the sounds of it, they've got pretty good control over the properties of the end product. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't be trying for guns yet.
 
lol. lmao.

"The evils of domestication."
If you want a good laugh:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiRx62VGl8Q

The natural state of farm animals is being gruesomely torn apart by predators in the wild, watching their children be run down and savaged by packs of wolves and generally living in fear.

On a farm, they are kept safe, fed well, have many children that are kept safe to adulthood, and generally live in a luxurious paradise compared to their wild cousins.

We should certainly endeavor to quit it with the growth hormones, but the only real argument against farming them is inefficient land use.
Also meat is just really really good for growth, especially pre-modern agriculture. There's a reason why people with diets rich in protein (generally meat) grow far larger than those without. Getting the same amount of protein through solely plants/mushrooms is hard.
The only real alternative to the traditional animals is farmed insects, such as locusts. Which is a practical and very attractive alternative or supplement to traditional meat.

Yeah, chickens are literally a South-East Asian jungle bird, they were domesticated all the way over there and then promptly got exported literally everywhere.
And sheep are incredibly useful for wool of course. Plant fibers can't replace it, it's very much its own, highly useful material.

Edit: Oh, and of course there's the vitamin issue. A purely vegetarian diet has a very hard time getting certain key vitamins. It's not impossible, but it's a massive pain, and a lot more difficult than just eating meat. Works best in a more developed civilization with better knowledge and infrastructure.
You can be completely nutritionally satisfied by animal red meat alone: it already has everything a mammal body needs, because it is made from the same stuff you are.

There are a number of clinical problems that can be essentially cured by switching to a purely red meat diet. In some cases this has had such baffling effects as curing schizophrenia, athritis, and diabetes.

As far as we can tell, many of our modern chronic ailments can largely be traced to the fact that we evolved to be hunter-gatherers, and we are still running on hunter-gatherer hardware and operating systems.
And their meat isn't any more likely to give you diseases than the meat of any other mammal is.
Well, sort of. In a pre modern context it does, as pigs were fed refuse and rotten food for most of history.

Kosher foods, if you really look at what they are, read like a travel health advisory for what foods not to eat when traveling to 3rd world countries.
Skipping animal power and going straight for wind and water power as ways to supplement human muscle power would certainly be an interesting challenge.
The key there is the development of electrical infrastructure, as that allows the transfer of mechanical power from where the power is available to where the power is needed.

This is not nearly as difficult an endeavor as it seems at first. Basic Electrical systems are not complex things to build, they are only complex to understand.
C: @fasquardon it's worth remembering that the technologies available have already been subject to serious sequence breaking. Namely, steel. And from the sounds of it, they've got pretty good control over the properties of the end product. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't be trying for guns yet.
Guns will require my metalworking tool post as a prerequisite, for anything other than lever matchlocks.

They don't have files, or saws, or drills, or reamers. They don't have the needed geometry knowledge to make the parts to useful specification for a flintlock, they still measure with fingers.

They can only shape metal with a hammer. They might be using chisels for metalwork, but that may not have occured to them yet.

they lack grinding wheels, they lack lathes and calipers and compasses and dividing plates. They lack the knowledge of geometry and mathematics to properly use such things as we use them.


There are some things that they can make early, but there are many things they cannot without the necessary prerequisites.
 
There are a number of clinical problems that can be essentially cured by switching to a purely red meat diet. In some cases this has had such baffling effects as curing schizophrenia, athritis, and diabetes.
Yeah no bad, eat your damn veggies. Living off of red meat alone is very stupid. Also goddamn I don't want to even imagine the bowel movements lmao. Also also, this is complete nonsense and none of those things have been cured by red meat. We're omnivores, without a bunch of effort our diets are generally going to be omnivorous. Plants and animals. Vegetarian diets are infinitely more practical than "pure meat" anyway. I've gone quite a while without having meat before and done great, vegetarian dishes are delicious. Pure meat is just going to make you very ill. You're going to experience all the fun malnutritional diseases lmao. Scurvy is coming for you.
 
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C: @fasquardon it's worth remembering that the technologies available have already been subject to serious sequence breaking. Namely, steel. And from the sounds of it, they've got pretty good control over the properties of the end product. If it weren't for that, we wouldn't be trying for guns yet.

Mmmm. You still need to leapfrog several levels of proto chemistry, machining and also make something that is good enough and convenient enough versus muscle powered weapons which can be made of readily available materials.

Also, in OTL one of the things that made black powder weapons useful was the way they could empower vast armies of relatively low-skill draftees. Bianca doesn't have the access to the large populations that would make arquebuses useful yet, you probably need to boost her all the way up to rifles if you want to get her people into firearms before they have a large population. Europeans took like 500-600 years to get from their first blackpowder weapons to rifles.

It is an uphill struggle, and I will be very impressed if you can help Bianca leapfrog so far.

Well, sort of. In a pre modern context it does, as pigs were fed refuse and rotten food for most of history.

Not at all. For most of their history as domestic animals, pigs were sent to browse in the woods. Keep in mind though, that pigs were domesticated about 12,000 years ago in the Middle East and 8,000 years ago in China. So ya, they have been garbage disposal animals for a long time also, just not for the majority of their history.

Also, over time plenty of other domestic animals have been used as garbage disposal, like chickens, cows, dogs, goats... It is normal and depending on how selective you are with the "garbage" you feed to your animals, it might not even be unclean at all. Kitchen scraps are just nice foods that humans can't take advantage of.

Kosher foods, if you really look at what they are, read like a travel health advisory for what foods not to eat when traveling to 3rd world countries.

Considering when the food laws were introduced, they probably aren't about health at all, and are more likely due to a mix of social reasons (such as enforcing the culture of the returning elites from the Babylonian exile on the population who remained behind, or differentiating the culture of Judah from Israel and vice versa, or to help the culture resist assimilation by Greek or Roman society after the conquests of Alexander and then Rome) and perhaps to encourage chicken farming. (The start of the pork prohibition lines up with the arrival of chickens in the region, and for how pigs were used at the time, chickens were basically better than pigs in every way.)

That said, for all the theories that have been advanced for why Kosher food laws emerged, none can be shown to be definitively correct. So while there are many serious issues with the health theory (like there are a whole bunch of health issues at the time that were common, more obviously food related, and that don't have food laws to address them), it hasn't been entirely ruled out, it just doesn't stand up to Occam's Razor.

The natural state of farm animals is being gruesomely torn apart by predators in the wild, watching their children be run down and savaged by packs of wolves and generally living in fear.

On a farm, they are kept safe, fed well, have many children that are kept safe to adulthood, and generally live in a luxurious paradise compared to their wild cousins.

Um, no.

One of the key requirements for domesticated animals to thrive is the ability to handle the stress of what humans put them through. Like, a human's idea of kindness is not necessarily what makes other species happy. Let alone the times when we are kinda inconsiderate or just outright cruel. Living with us isn't all upside for the animals that are our domesticates.

Plenty of species don't have the chill or behavioral flexibility to live with humans at all.

Also, if animals didn't enjoy being wild, their species would die out. So the idea that they are all unhappy and terrified in the wild is quite silly. Sure, there are rough moments, but that doesn't mean that live overall is unpleasant in the wild.

You can be completely nutritionally satisfied by animal red meat alone: it already has everything a mammal body needs, because it is made from the same stuff you are.

No, you absolutely cannot. Red meat is short of a whole host of stuff humans need to live on, from dietary fiber to omega 3 oils. There's a reason why meat only diets are so good for losing weight.

Humans are not cats. We have evolved to live on diverse diets.

At minimum you need to eat other parts of the animal (brains are particularly important, they are fat rich and full of omega 3s), foraged plants and/or seafood. I believe the population of humans who had the highest level of meat eating were the Inuit, and they were eating a wide variety of marine animals, not just seals and even they ate some plants.

The key there is the development of electrical infrastructure, as that allows the transfer of mechanical power from where the power is available to where the power is needed.

You can do alot with wooden gears and leather drive belts.

Windmills and water wheels powered a huge range of industry before the steam revolution.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Yeah no bad, eat your damn veggies. Living off of red meat alone is very stupid. Also goddamn I don't want to even imagine the bowel movements lmao. Also also, this is complete nonsense and none of those things have been cured by red meat. We're omnivores, without a bunch of effort our diets are generally going to be omnivorous. Plants and animals. Vegetarian diets are infinitely more practical than "pure meat" anyway. I've gone quite a while without having meat before and done great, vegetarian dishes are delicious. Pure meat is just going to make you very ill. You're going to experience all the fun malnutritional diseases lmao. Scurvy is coming for you.

No, you absolutely cannot. Red meat is short of a whole host of stuff humans need to live on, from dietary fiber to omega 3 oils. There's a reason why meat only diets are so good for losing weight.

www.nature.com

Ketogenic diet for human diseases: the underlying mechanisms and potential for clinical implementations - Signal Transduction and Targeted Therapy

The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, adequate-protein, and very-low-carbohydrate diet regimen that mimics the metabolism of the fasting state to induce the production of ketone bodies. The KD has long been established as a remarkably successful dietary approach for the treatment of intractable...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ai1xpi8bW0
The ketogenic diet is real, and it works.

The video is of Mikhaila Peterson, who has various crippling autoimmune disorders that gave her athritis in her teenage years, and resulted in the need for ankle replacement at 20.

She was suffering from serious chronic depression and regular hallucinations as well as chronic general health issues.

She was at her wit's end and tried to do a diet removal to see if it was something she was eating that was making it worse, and when she ate primarily red meat and some salad, and nothing else, her symptoms went away over a few months. Her logic is that you can't be allergic to meat, and she was right.

They came back after her pregnancy, and she stopped taking SSRIs and went to pure red meat diet, nothing else to try to get rid of the symptoms.

That resulted in essentially all of her chronic health issues dissapearing after the SSRI withdrawls were over with.

She has been eating nothing but red meat for years now and is perfectly healthy.

Furthermore, the research that has been done on the ketogenic diet has reflected her anecdotal experiences in almost 80% of cases, that people with general chronic health issues see partial or even full remission of symptoms after several months on a ketogenic diet.

Mmmm. You still need to leapfrog several levels of proto chemistry, machining and also make something that is good enough and convenient enough versus muscle powered weapons which can be made of readily available materials.

Also, in OTL one of the things that made black powder weapons useful was the way they could empower vast armies of relatively low-skill draftees. Bianca doesn't have the access to the large populations that would make arquebuses useful yet, you probably need to boost her all the way up to rifles if you want to get her people into firearms before they have a large population. Europeans took like 500-600 years to get from their first blackpowder weapons to rifles.

It is an uphill struggle, and I will be very impressed if you can help Bianca leapfrog so far.
This is why I have been doing posts on comanche archery techniques, they are the more practical alternative that allows for victory with significant numerical and tactical inferiority.

The more important part of it is the culture that arises from every man, woman, and child being extremely capable of violence, allows for the forging of a more practical culture for conquest.

Not in the sense of them being more capable of conquering, that much is not the question, but that it allows you to make a culture that can integrate other cultures into its dominion.

The Spartans were the greatest warriors in ancient greece, yet their empire over most of greece fell because they could not integrate their conquests into their culture.

If Bianca's people are going to be a great empire, they need to have a culture that can be both accessibly converted to and accepting of the converted, and one that is eminently desirable to convert to.

Baking traditions of everyone learning to use a bow, and use it well, from birth into the culture allows for the creation of a culture of responsibility and self reliance, and as a common cultural touchstone for differing peoples to see as a common uniting characteristic. The learning the proper ways of the bow becomes a ritual of acceptance into adulthood, and of acceptance into the culture.


The second component of the unifying culture is a unifying Ideal that all look up to as a goal, and one that is inspiring as a goal to aim for. Think of what America is: it is a nationality that is centered not on an ethnicity or single culture, but an ideal: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If we can do something similar, not necessarily a democracy/republic, but to have the center of a culture be a unifying, inspiring ideal, that also speeds conversion and peaceable assimilation of conquered peoples and lands.


I intend to go much further into the cultural technology side of this, but that is for a later post. I highly recommend watching Jordan Peterson's lecture series on the psychological significance of the biblical stories, which I am working my way through now.

View: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpQ3g2HCaXzjkCfAGYeBg6Z9r0fla2TTm
 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ai1xpi8bW0
The ketogenic diet is real, and it works.

The video is of Mikhaila Peterson, who has various crippling autoimmune disorders that gave her athritis in her teenage years, and resulted in the need for ankle replacement at 20.

She was suffering from serious chronic depression and regular hallucinations as well as chronic general health issues.

She was at her wit's end and tried to do a diet removal to see if it was something she was eating that was making it worse, and when she ate primarily red meat and some salad, and nothing else, her symptoms went away over a few months. Her logic is that you can't be allergic to meat, and she was right.

They came back after her pregnancy, and she stopped taking SSRIs and went to pure red meat diet, nothing else to try to get rid of the symptoms.

That resulted in essentially all of her chronic health issues dissapearing after the SSRI withdrawls were over with.

She has been eating nothing but red meat for years now and is perfectly healthy.

Furthermore, the research that has been done on the ketogenic diet has reflected her anecdotal experiences in almost 80% of cases, that people with general chronic health issues see partial or even full remission of symptoms after several months on a ketogenic diet.
lol
 
Mmmm. You still need to leapfrog several levels of proto chemistry, machining and also make something that is good enough and convenient enough versus muscle powered weapons which can be made of readily available materials.

Also, in OTL one of the things that made black powder weapons useful was the way they could empower vast armies of relatively low-skill draftees. Bianca doesn't have the access to the large populations that would make arquebuses useful yet, you probably need to boost her all the way up to rifles if you want to get her people into firearms before they have a large population. Europeans took like 500-600 years to get from their first blackpowder weapons to rifles.

It is an uphill struggle, and I will be very impressed if you can help Bianca leapfrog so far.
L: So, rifles were actually a thing for almost as long as muskets. The problem was loading the blasted things, along with the gun getting fouled. A bullet small enough to muzzle-load easily wouldn't properly engage the rifling. Meanwhile a bullet large enough to engage the rifling would need to be bashed in with a hammer. This largely relegated rifles to use as hunting weapons.

J: Hollow-based bullets (which we included detailed instructions for) were a complete game changer. Thanks to widening during firing, they managed to get the best of both worlds, not being much harder to load than a smoothbore while also taking full advantage of the gun's rifling.

P: As we touched upon in the gunpost, there are other benefits to hollow-based bullets. They are drastically more efficient at using the force of the black powder, greatly amplifying their terminal effects. Also, being forced so wide during firing means they scrape out a lot of the fouling from previous shots.
 
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Again guns are not something we want to spread, their are several thousand of years of weapons and armor advancements we can give that insure military dominance for ages. Once guns are developed the only thing that matters is who has the most people shot with. Guns are not hard to steal, they are ultimately very simple to make.
 
Again guns are not something we want to spread, their are several thousand of years of weapons and armor advancements we can give that insure military dominance for ages. Once guns are developed the only thing that matters is who has the most people shot with. Guns are not hard to steal, they are ultimately very simple to make.
yeah, guns would be an active detriment for our military dominance.
 
Again guns are not something we want to spread, their are several thousand of years of weapons and armor advancements we can give that insure military dominance for ages. Once guns are developed the only thing that matters is who has the most people shot with. Guns are not hard to steal, they are ultimately very simple to make.
L: The materials for guns are not so readily available. Bianca's affiliated peoples have an absolute monopoly on the sorts of high-strength metallurgy a would-be gunsmith needs for their efforts to not literally explode in their face.
 
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L: The materials for guns are not so readily avaiable. Bianca's affiliated peoples have an absolute monopoly on the sorts of high-strength metallurgy a would-be gunsmith needs for their efforts to not literally explode in their face.
and this monopoly will go away faster than we could keep an edge in traditional equipment, so we return to the point of more guns being the sole determining factor, which then requires us to develop a society able to produce those and that is something these threads have proven consistently incapable of.
 
and this monopoly will go away faster than we could keep an edge in traditional equipment, so we return to the point of more guns being the sole determining factor, which then requires us to develop a society able to produce those and that is something these threads have proven consistently incapable of.
C: We aim to disprove that hypothesis. Also, having an absolutely crushing advantage early will allow Bianca to establish an extensive power base while the vast majority of the world is still unclaimed.
 
L: The materials for guns are not so readily available. Bianca's affiliated peoples have an absolute monopoly on the sorts of high-strength metallurgy a would-be gunsmith needs for their efforts to not literally explode in their face.
We don't have a monopoly because it easy stuff that anybody can steal. Guns are very very simple, all you need is some explosive does not matter what, and a tube wood, stone, metal all have been done and proven to work. The only reason Guns took so long to be developed is the Blacksmiths, and chemist, where very different skills and area of expertise. We could have had guns in the bronze age.

Once an enemy just sees, let along captures a gun, they will rush to develop them and in less then 50 years the advantage is gone. Because guns are a game changes that everybody must rush and develop or lose, and everybody from the nearby enemies, to people the other-side of the world will want them.

All rushing guns does is lose us thousands of years of military victory we should be enjoying. The only reason we should ever spread gun knowledge is their is no other way to deal with a threat.
 
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J: And the propellant? It's not obvious what goes into even black powder just by looking at it. Rush smokeless powder ASAP, keep the required chemistry an absolute state secret, and duplicating that crucial fuel will be utterly infeasible.
 
We don't have a monopoly because it easy stuff that anybody can steal. Guns are very very simple, all you need is some explosive does not matter what, and a tube wood, stone, metal all have been done and proven to work. The only reason Guns took so long to be developed is the Blacksmiths, and chemist, where very different skills and area of expertise. We could have had guns in the bronze age.

Once an enemy just sees, let along captures a gun, they will rush to develop them and in less then 50 years the advantage is gone. Because guns are a game changes that everybody must rush and develop or lose, and everybody from the nearby enemies, to people the other-side of the world will want them.

All rushing guns does is lose us thousands of years of military victory we should be enjoying. The only reason we should ever spread gun knowledge is their is no other way to deal with a threat.
Gunpowder existed without dominating warfare for hundreds of years.

Early gunpowder weaponry was temperamental, unreliable and situational, and the expertise you need to avoid those problems is not easily found.
 
J: Also, if a threat pops up that needs guns to deal with, there won't be time to crash-develop them before said threat squishes us. Better to have the guns early.
 
J: And the propellant? It's not obvious what goes into even black powder just by looking at it. Rush smokeless powder ASAP, keep the required chemistry an absolute state secret, and duplicating that crucial fuel will be utterly infeasible.
You can use any explosive in a gun, does not have to be black powder. And once people see a gun they will rush development of explosives, because theu now have a reason to develop them in the first place.
Gunpowder existed without dominating warfare for hundreds of years.

Early gunpowder weaponry was temperamental, unreliable and situational, and the expertise you need to avoid those problems is not easily found.
And guns still dominated all warfare even with those restriction, because you can train a guy to shoot a gun in a few months, compared to the years to make a decent combatant prior to guns. Guns are just plain better then any other weapon in both numbers of people you can equip and train then anything else.
 
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