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What Can SV Teach an Evil Sorceress? (abandoned)

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0. Quest Mechanics and Details
  • Informational
    • 0
    Code: 
                             NOTICES
    Code: 
    Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (the QMPC does NOT hear what you write right now)
Next story update : Sometime in July would be nice
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 3,146 words
    Code: 
    Anything I post that's not in text blocks or in spoilers
may be understood to be said by the QMPC, with the
exception of the Collaboration Post
  (see Collaboration Post for details on itself)
    Code: 
    Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
    Code: 
    This is not meant to be Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources.  When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.
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     I have added some players who contributed a fair amount
the last two times as thread collaborators who can update
   the collaboration post. If you'd like to update the
collaboration post too, contact me by PM and we'll talk
                        about it.



    Check the Collaboration Post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

    If you're not already involved in the game, portions of either of these may be difficult to follow. But you can skip to the line that says "B R E A K" in the latest threadmarked story post and skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

    If there's no corresponding Closing The Vote post in the Informational threadmarks for the latest story post in (normal?) Threadmarks, then the game is in a cacophonous interlude and the QMPC will hear what you post, unless you do so with spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a cacophonous interlude.

    So you can engage with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans and you can compose a message to the QMPC all whether or not the game is in a cacophonous interlude. And once it is, you can vote and/or send a message to the QMPC by creating a post in the thread.

    If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them.

    If you want to send a message to the QMPC, though, keep in mind that they are a creature of their time. They may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to the QMPC, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of the QMPC's understanding of the world.

    I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of the QMPC and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell them.

    The QMPC has different values than we do. They have different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Their goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But they want something, and will listen most attentively to players that tell them how to get more of or closer to what they want.
    Code: 
                        Collaboration Post!
    1. The Quest Master posts story updates that have 3 parts.
      • Quest Master Player Character responses to player posts made during the last cacophonous interlude
      • An update by the QMPC following a break of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what the character believes is worth mentioning
      • Requests by the QMPC for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
    2. Following each story update, players posts are audible to the QMPC until voting is closed.
      This is the cacophonous interlude.
      • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
      • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
      • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with each other without doing so in ways the QMPC can hear.
    3. When votes are tallied, the QM collects player posts so that it may be known what the QMPC heard.
      • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting. And only identical write-ins accumulate.
      • Some votes are querying the players for their preference, in which case the only suboptimal answer is that which does not accurately reflect the preference of the players who nonetheless chose it (I don't think these kinds of misunderstandings can be helped).
      • Other votes are intended as puzzles where there is a choice the QM believes would best meet what they believe to be the goals of the players.
        • However, in these sorts of votes the QM has in mind a choice that would provide the players with what the QM thinks they most want, but which is not listed in the available votes.
        • In this way, clever write-ins are encouraged.
    4. QM reads player posts, researches their suggestions, checks notes for precedent, determines what the QMPC thinks they already know on the topic, what they're right or wrong about, how likely they are to engage with the topic, how likely the QMPC's followers are to follow-through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be later on.
    5. QM composes QMPC's responses to player posts made during the cacophonous interlude and updates their notes.
    6. When narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, QM devises tests for QMPC or other characters and makes those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
      • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew modification of the Burning Wheel system, mangled to suit the format of this game. (The Burning Wheelis a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
        • Tests may be a contest between two characters or against a static target with tiered results.
        • The rules being used and followed will be described in each post in which tests are made by die rolls.
        • Normal mortals count 7s and better as successes.
        • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better as successes.
        • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better as successes.
        • New gods and characters who have otherwise stolen the power of Old Gods count 4s and better as successes.
        • Old Gods count 3s and better as successes.
        • Sorcery and other magic skills lower the threshold of success by 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are the skill being tested, not when they provide a bonus to other skills. Players may note that Old Gods' threshold of success does not improve when they use magic.
        • Bonus dice provided by Kahl's Warhorses and any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow reroll 9s & 10s and keeps successes. These same bonus dice cancels successes on 1s & 2s, rerolls those, and additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2, 9, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, a 1 or 2 that comes up when a 9 on a bonus die is rerolled don't cancel successes or lead to further rerolling.
      • Research project results are determined by percentile dice with results falling into 5 tiers.
        • Uh oh: something has gone horribly wrong
        • Nuh uh: failure, but the boring kind
        • Huh: partial success
        • Uh huh: full success
        • Whoa: superior special case success
      • When players expect a test to be coming up -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they can improve the odds of the test turning out the way they want by providing the QMPC with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. That is, decent advice adds dice.
    7. QM composes the QMPC's post-break update, player vote questions, and player vote options.
    8. GOTO 1
    The QMPC is intended to be the only character the players will interact with in this game. (It's kind of possible that the players could maneuver the QMPC to surrender control of the Astute Cacophony to another character, but unlikely.)

    The QMPC is a small, evil woman who knows magic and has not died, despite looking like she probably should have at some point. She goes by the name Bianca the Undying. Her early life took place in the Paleolithic, in which she has said that she traveled around quite a bit and came to understand the malleable nature of populations of people and animals and even the land itself. At some point she was trapped underground, to her displeasure. She remained trapped for a very long time.

    When Bianca got out, she found her way to a community of eight tribes living pastoral and agrarian lifestyles in the local Copper Age. She made these people hers and they relied on her for magically enriching their fields so that they did not need to slash, burn, and move around a bit, unlike their neighbors. Bianca and her followers formalized their relationships into the Eight Ways Pact. Later, another tribe joined Bianca's followers bringing small horses and the Bronze Age and their pact was updated with a ninth directive.

    Bianca has an agenda that requires her to have more power than she does right now. She believes that achieving divinity will get her that power.
     
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  • Informational
    • Ciber said:
    Wow. None of you guys have ANY idea how wire is actually made.
    Wire Drawing :
    You begin by cutting strips from a sheet of metal. Then draw those strips through a succession of ever smaller holes in a drawing plate until they are the desired size. The drawing plate is typically made of the hardest available substance. Often high carbon tool steel or even diamond for extremely small wires. To fit the wire into the next smaller hole you hammer it into shape. The holes in the drawing plate need to be tapered and well lubricated for best results. Drawing can be made easier by heating the wire, but cold working the metal results in a stronger product.
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    I did know of that method actually, but it seems really labor-intensive and inefficient. Especially if powered by muscles instead of mechanically.

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    Greetings, Undying One! You may call me Gnarker, he who makes weird sounds, like 'Gnark', or 'Narf!', or 'Lol', or 'Squee', or 'Ni!'

    I am a bit surprised that so few of my fellow voices have talked about the Haunted Forest. Personally, I was quite alarmed when I heard about it, as to my understanding if left unchecked, it could very well extinguish the Tribes. I consider it and the actions that led to it to be the greatest mistake of our cooperation so far.

    There is a lesson to be learned there, I suppose: We, the voices, do not know anything of magic, save what we either heard from you, or what we made up for our stories or imagined what it might be like. As such, we will tend to forget that it is a factor to consider, or even if not might be wrong in our estimates of how it will act. The only remedy to this would be for you to teach us more of magic, as much as you can, no matter how trivial or tedious or secret you think it, if you are willing of course.

    Thankfully, the Galugr already seem to be working on containing it. Nonetheless I would ask you to keep an eye on the situation and keep us informed. I would also ask you to seek out further Lore on places like it, and how they might be contained and removed. Out of curiosity, how did the walls and the clearcuts that have been proposed to contain it work out?


    Now, among us voices there has been some argument on how to best combat the spread of the forest or even drive it back.

    Personally, I would imagine that just as events tied to fire and death created it, so too might events tied to water and life might counteract it. Encouraging the growth of plants near it (though in all likelyhood those plants would definitely need to be protected from the haunt simply using them to spread itself further instead), encouraging rainfall on it, and possibly even diverting rivers near or into the forest and the creation of lakes and wetlands (though these will contain a large amounts of rotting plant matter, which might in turn be aspected closely enough to death to render the exercise pointless). In this way, healthy forest would grow to oppose the haunted forest, and the wound in the world that is the haunt would be healed.

    The voice known as Cat disagrees. In his opinion, the haunt is more a matter of the vengeful dead lingering, and because they were tied so closely to the forest in life, so too are they tied to the forest in death, and have power over it. If this is true, then as a consequence the above approach of encouraging the spread of healthy forest nearby would most likely only feed the haunt, and encourage it's spread by giving it more healthy forest to take over. The only solution then, would be to raze the haunted forest to the ground so that nothing grows there anymore, and the angry spirits lose any hold they have on the area.

    Of course, the solutions to both of these theories are opposed, and if the attempted solution to one case is applied when in fact it is the other case that is true, it would only worsen matters. Do you know which of these is closer to the truth?

    Either way however, the following seem like good ideas either way:

    Calming and appeasing the spirits inside it should help; I imagine that the slaves you took of the Forest people might have knowledge of their tribes' spirit lore. The death priestess might also know a thing or two that could help you - has she actually voiced any concrete things that she wants from you yet, besides respecting or worshipping or something her god in some nebulous way? Of course, ultimately you are the authority on this topic, and will have to decide yourself which of these ideas are feasible or even advisable.

    Another thing that would likely be advisable would be to set up a permanent guard on the forests borders. Composed of experienced hunters and warriors from all tribes, accompanied by those learned in the ways of the spirits, their duty would be to keep a closer eye on the forest and inform you of any changes and any problems they can't handle by themselves, to support the efforts of the Galugr, as well as to protect the people living near the forest from any monsters that emerge from it to prey on them and if necessary and possible, maybe even to track those monsters that prove especially persistent back to their lairs and put them down for good.
    As I also imagine this to be quite stressfull and dangerous work, naturally the people serving in this guard should do so only for limited amounts of time at once, so they can recover and go back to their families afterwards.
    Building watchtowers and/or secure stronghouses in the border zone could also be of help, so they can keep watch and signal each other more easily, and have somewhere safe to fall back to rest at. Is there such a thing as magical wards? These would also be well-placed on these outposts, as well as on any close villages if possible - or possibly even on a larger scale, such as inscribed on a series of wardstones erected in regular intervals, which together would form a barrier to the forest and anything that comes out of it.

    To prevent the creation of similar places in the future, I would also urge you to avoid and discourage any similar large-scale killing and suffering from here on out.

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    In part because of the above, but also because of other reasons, I was also quite unsettled by the following:
    "I and my singers and the eunuch and his students have opened up a few living people, in secret. The motions and actions of the heart and lungs and bowels were informative, but nothing that was not already known in some way. Either the wise understood it in some way or your words brought it to me or we learned enough from animals. We know better where people may be stabbed to be most swiftly killed by spears or long knives. But in hindsight we could have learned nearly that much from the dead.

    "Wound care and the understanding of medicines may, I think, be much more improved by the infliction of suffering on people who cannot prevent it. And in this it is well known that the wound does ill and the testing is in what improves it. So if the people come to imitate the practice then they have nearly the same opportunity to better their understanding as the wise do. The problem, so far, has been keeping track of what was done, exactly, and determining which thing done brought weal or woe.

    "Indeed, there is one field of knowledge which is easily the most improved by opening the bodies of living people and observing their function. And that is the ways of wounding a person and causing a person suffering that does not swiftly kill them, but instead prolongs their suffering. The ideal presentation of killing a person as performance requires the combination of skills which are not easily obtained, knowledge which was until recently rare, and a disposition the presence or absence of which may not be clearly known from everyday behavior. When I feel these performances were called for in some other than myself, the show the people get has depending far too much on fortune. Now the matter of knowledge, at least, may be better covered. The skill still requires practice, even my own much practiced arts of inflicting suffering are lessened by decades of disuse. And it is a bad sign for common peace when opportunities to practice abound. But the stone knowledge, at least, will give us a better place to start when next there is some benefit to be had from grisly demonstrations of the consequences of disobedience and discord.
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    Torture, too, is something that I would very much discourage. Not only does it have many drawbacks, but as far as I know it's use also doesn't hold any benefit that cannot be better gained in other ways.

    Yes, it could be argued that it is in invaluable tool for first, interrogating someone, second, punishing someone in a way that discourages others from imitating them, third, torturing someone to make them loyal to you or to make them follow certain ideologies or beliefs, and fourth, gaining knowledge of the workings of the body. I do not consider this argument to be true, however.


    First, interrogation: Most obviously, if you accidentally go too far and kill your sole source of information, how are you to gain this information otherwise?
    But also, if you do torture information out of someone, who is to say they speak the truth? Maddened with pain and wanting nothing else than for the torture to stop, there are few things that a person will not invent from out of nothing in their desperation. In particular, admissions of guilt to a crime should never be taken at face value if they are extracted under torture, nor should blaming other people of being guilty of a crime. Ignoring this has led to countless innocents to be wrongly punished or killed while the ones who were truly to blame walked away free and unpunished, or even worse, while no crime has actually taken place and they were falsely accused, because they were mistrusted and hated and envied due to being different than other people, or because those people sought to blame someone for misfortune.

    It is more effective, generally, to get people to tell you their secrets because they want to tell you their secrets, because they slip up while talking to you, or because they consider it futile to lie. Several tricks can help with this:

    Getting someone to want to tell you their secrets usually is best done by making them think you are their friend, by being patient and understanding. However, the interrogator should take care that they do not become too friendly with the target in truth, even while quite possibly making them think otherwise, so that they can remain unbiased and continue to act with the goal of finding only the truth. At the same time, a clear imbalance of power needs to be maintained, so that the target does not feel they can take advantage of the situation and dictate the course of the conversation.
    It can also help to have the true interrogator be assissted by a second person, who appears threatening and angry and forceful, so that the true interrogator can appear reasonable and preferable in comparison, and also as the only one who can protect the target from the assisstant, who can hold the assisstant back and possibly even send them away as a reward.
    A lighter punishment can likewise work as a reward. It may also be necessary to reason with an target, to convince them that cooperating is the best course of action for them to take.

    Getting someone to talk to you in the first place however can be both the most difficult and also the most important part. This, too, is best archieved by making the itarget want to talk of his own will, make them consider talking to their interrogator to be a pleasant and desirable thing. Again, being patient and understanding and even friendly to an extent helps with all this.
    Other things that help is to make them subconciously associate the interrogation with pleasant things - a talk with a 'friend' for example. A pleasant thing does not have to be pleasant in of itself however, it can also be the absence of an unpleasant thing, such as the above angry and threatening assisstant.
    Alternatives are to isolate the target from all human contact and conversation apart from the interrogator, to keep them in a dimly lit cell and have the interrogation happen in a brightly lit room and possibly to use some time outside (under strict guard in a walled in area of course) as a reward for cooperation, or to have interrogation sessions happen over or before all the meals. Serving alcoholic drinks may even loosen their tongue, too. Admittedly, withholding meals and light and human contact can be considered to be forms of torture of their own, but at least they are less grisly forms of it than cutting someone open while alive, as long as they are not done too much.
    Fundamentally, humans crave human contact. Eventually, most people will crack and start talking to their interrogator out of sheer boredom. Once they have started talking, then there will be opportunities to either:
    Make them slip up and reveal secrets without meaning to, though afterwards they will usually tense up and be more wary, and possibly stop talking entirely for a time - it should also be noted however that having let slip something once may also make it easier for them to knowingly reveal a second thing, as repetition even of small things breeds acceptance even of larger things.
    Or to understand and reason with them and get them to reveal their secrets of their own will.

    Through all this, of course, it is important that the interrogatee knows that it is futile to lie. The most important step for this is to have multiple independent sources of information you can compare with each other; An independent investigation for example, or multiple prisoners kept away from each other and not allowed to communicate without strict supervision so they cannot coordinate a cover story.
    Making sure they know that you will investigate all claims they make, and that you will find and punish any lie, or better yet that making them believe that you already know the entire truth and just want to confirm how obedient they are by seeing if they will tell the truth on their own, will also encourage them to not tell lies.
    As lies take active attention to maintain, it can also be helpful to ask every question multiple times phrased in slightly different ways, to disorient the target with rapid jumps between unconnected topics, or to ask questions that are completely irrelevant or whose answer is already known, in order to cause the target to doubt themselves and to hide which questions you actually want to know the answers to most.


    Second, punishment: Admittedly, possibly the most valid use for torture out of the four, but even here I do not think it productive.

    With punishment, generally it matters far more how certain it is than how harsh. A harsh but uncertain punishment will always tempt people to gamble, to assume, correctly or not, that they are cunning enough to get away with their transgressions. On the other hand, if they are certain that they will be found and punished and whatever benefit they gained from it taken away again, then any crime will start to seem like an unpleasant waste of time, even if the punishment is relatively moderate. It may help, for this and for interrogations, if you cultivate a reputation for knowing things about your subjects that they thought you couldn't possibly know.
    Of course, there will always be those who are simply stupid and greedy enough to think that they are smarter than everyone else, that they are the one big exception even if they know that to date, everyone who ever attempted a crime got caught. But those people will exist no matter how harsh the punishment.

    A further note on punishments: It is said that any punishment has four purposes: Prevention, Deterrence, Rehabilitation, and Retribution.
    Prevention, simply put, means that the punishment prevents the criminal from repeating his crime in the future.
    Deterrence means that knowledge of the punishment will prevent others from imitating the criminal and whatever deed got him punished. I talked about it just now. It is distinct from Prevention in that it is solely about other people, where Prevention concerns only the criminal himself.
    The purpose of Rehabilitation is to turn a criminal back into a productive member of society. For a thief, chopping off his hand, locking him up for the rest of his life, or simply killing him will all fulfill the purpose of Prevention, and inhibit him from stealing again. However, all of them will also prevent him from working and contributing to the common good in the future, while imprisonment will additionally also tie up men to guard and feed and clothe him and to build his prison, while a missing hand will prevent him from most honest work and may force him to choose between either starving, or stealing again. They all have the opportunity cost of whatever work he might have done in the future, and should thus be avoided.
    With Retribution, in turn, the criminal pays back his debt to society and undoes whatever harm his crime did as best as possible, while also satisfying the people around him and especially those he wronged, so that they feel they can rely on you and whoever you instate to ensure justice is done, and do not need to take it into their own hands, in the process starting blood feuds and convicting innocents and inflicting punishment far in excess of what would be appropriate.

    Personally, I consider as priority, from most to least important, Rehabilitation, Prevention, and only then Retribution and Deterrence; Preventing crime of course is the most obvious purpose for punishment, but rehabilitating a criminal, if it is successfull, accomplishes it just as well as killing him would. Retribution and Deterrence, meanwhile, share the element that the certainty of punishment is paramount. It is of course possible to argue about the correct order.
    Thus, I would reserve punishments that would cripple or kill someone only for the most heinous crimes and even then only if it is certain beyond all doubt that they are guilty of those crimes and that it is impossible to rehabilitate them - as these punishments are permanent and cannot be revoked and undone - and instead use imprisonment for anywhere up to several years, enslavement for the same time, or perhaps beatings. A fine, forcing them to pay tribute, may be used in addition, or even as sole punishment for minor transgressions. Though it should be noted of course that a fine sufficient to make a poor man starve to death may not even be noticeable to a rich man.
    Also, if you do sentence someone to death, I would suggest that they be brought to a cell below your house, and that there you just kill them quickly and quietly and dispose of their body so noone knows what happened to them, and let rumors and people's imaginations invent far more unpleasant fates for any sentenced thus than would be possible to actually inflict without a lot of effort, without you having to lift another finger.

    When deciding on a sentence, it is also important to consider the circumstances, most importantly why they did the crime. Considering again a thief: Was he desperate, did he steal beause he had to in order to feed himself and his family, or to buy medicine for a sick loved one? Did he have a sickness of the mind, that prevented him from realizing stealing was wrong, or inflicted an irresistible compulsion to do it anyway? Did he think the stolen object was rightfully his and that there was no other way to make things right? Was he forced into it by someone else by way of blackmail or threats? Did people dare him to do it to prove his courage and cunning, and he feared shame and exclusion? Did he steal in order to prevent a greater harm? Or, as of course happens on occasion, did he do it simply because he was greedy and stupid?
    Each of these reasons is different and merits punishment of wildly different size and nature in order to fulfill the above four purposes, and some of them even hint at a bigger, underlying problem that has to be solved in order to stop a repeat of the crime.


    Third, enforcing beliefs and loyalty: For this, torture is just about useless. You can force a person to do something or to say something, but you cannot force them to think or believe anything. The only thing you may accomplish with this is to force them to hide their beliefs and lie to you about them, while quietly resenting you for it.
    If you do want to shift someone's beliefs and loyalties, better to reason with them about it.


    Fourth, researching medicine: For this too, experimenting on living humans is not very useful, as you have already noted. For the most part, dead bodies, or dead or living animals can be used instead, especially pigs and mice as, eating much the same things as humans do, their bodies are largely similar in everything except form. Many other things that would need a living human to find out, you can simply ask us to tell you.
    Lastly, if you ever need to try out a new medicine on a living human to confirm it works, then informing them of the risks of trying this medicine, and of the risk of using known methods against whatever they suffer from, will usually convince at least a few people to try out the new medicine if it offers them a better chance than they would have had otherwise. Or, if it doesn't, then presumably there isn't such a great need for this new medicine after all. It should also be noted that when experimenting on living beings, wether animal or human, it is important that the extra pain and discomfort is minimized as much as possible, as these can influence the results, or even cause the experiment to give false results entirely.



    On the other hand, torture has several different drawbacks:
    First, it damages your reputation, and as you yourself have pointed out, keeping things secret rarely succeeds permanently. It will make people, inside and out of your dominion, to consider you as a cruel tyrant that threatens their safety, and that they need to rise up and unite against in order to depose out of simple self-defense. It will give rabble-rousers ammunition to convince people of the same, things they can point to that are known to be true to support their cause against you.
    Second, it takes a very particular mindset to torture someone and not be disturbed and wracked by guilt and nightmares over it, or perhaps even to enjoy inflicting suffering on someone else. Generally, a mindset that is not very trustworthy. Unless you keep very close watch on everyone you permit to do it, it is very easy for them to start tormenting others that you do approve of them doing it to, simply because they enjoy it or don't see anything wrong with it.
    Third, it is inherently destructive, will permanently scar anyone it is done to even if they survive. Every life has value, not just morally but also pragmatically, in the work it can do, in the life experience it has and can share, in it's creativity and intelligence, in the social bonds and comfort it can give to others. Every life destroyed is a waste.
    Fourth, judging by the death of the forest people, death and suffering may create vengeful spirits and blight the land.
     
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    Gnarker, there are some good points in your whisper words that you want to say louder. But many of your words would be more applicable to cities and empires where wealth inequality exist, and laws to protect the rich and limit discord that come with inequalities of wealth are enforced by the city watchmen or something like that.

    In the villages of the Nine Nations, and we have no cities mind you, there is no police or the inquisition or anything like that currently and it's simply a custom that theft of personal possessions is punished with beating, sometimes to death and sometimes no. This is why Bianca likes to extract all gold, silver and wealth as a tribute for her great hoard, or recently to sell for more useful tools. She does so not because she loves to sit on silver, but because among her Free People this limits theft, beatings, and bloody family feuds.

    There are no cases when somebody wanted to steal food in order to feed his starving family I think, unless everybody around also starved, as in her villages granaries are owned communally and food is distributed. Newly introduced machinery, like monjolo - that is primitive water hammer to crush grains - are also owned by the whole village in her tribes, not by individual rich people.

    I had made a slightly similar mistake at first, it seems to me that you, like me, understand more customs of the city people than customs of the Free People. Bianca said once that some of us can understand mostly "meek people" and servants, and she may be partially right.

    Our understanding of magic is even worse, though. We certainly should be ashamed about burning of the Forest People, this can cause problems for hundreds of years, yes. I don't believe that we had any slaves made from the Forest people, they would be very poor slaves.

    On the other hand, Daemon and his words that we should be "spreading out our territory away" as fast possible because of the haunted forest is probably overdramatic. It's a slowly growing problem, not something that can eat us during the next 20 years.
     
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    Demonic Spoon said:
    Growing vegetables in greenhouses is of course impractical. I was considering high-return for lower volume plants such as spices. For example saffron. Greenhouses do not need to be large after all.
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    I was also thinking on greenhouses but planned on waiting till it is feasible. If you still want to introduce them already there is some things tgat should be taken into account.
    -I would not start by building only with glass, your structure will be quite fragile rather big windows.
    - you will need heating too in winter
    - if you have a glass roof you will need to take snow of in the winter, check ondol floor, could be a nice thing to build
    - saffron is actually a bir tricky to grow. Their climate would allow it even outside (at least some of our world subspiecies do) but getting it to bloom is harder as for that the right light conditions are needed. Many plants coordinatevwith the lenght of the day
     
    Even small greenhouse looks to me as secondary concern when we are still unable to make even a few small glass windows to retain heat but allow light to enter buidings during winter. Flat and reasonably transparent to light glass in itself is much harder than glass cups and bottles, and glass cups are harder than glass ingots.
     
    liberty90 said:
    Gnarker, there are some good points in your whisper words that you want to say louder. But many of your words would be more applicable to cities and empires where wealth inequality exist, and laws to protect the rich and limit discord that come with inequalities of wealth are enforced by the city watchmen or something like that.

    In the villages of the Nine Nations, and we have no cities mind you, there is no police or the inquisition or anything like that currently and it's simply a custom that theft of personal possessions is punished with beating, sometimes to death and sometimes no. This is why Bianca likes to extract all gold, silver and wealth as a tribute for her great hoard, or recently to sell for more useful tools. She does so not because she loves to sit on silver, but because among her Free People this limits theft, beatings, and bloody family feuds.

    There are no cases when somebody wanted to steal food in order to feed his starving family I think, unless everybody around also starved, as in her villages granaries are owned communally and food is distributed. Newly introduced machinery, like monjolo - that is primitive water hammer to crush grains - are also owned by the whole village in her tribes, not by individual rich people.

    I had made a slightly similar mistake at first, it seems to me that you, like me, understand more customs of the city people than customs of the Free People. Bianca said once that some of us can understand mostly "meek people" and servants, and she may be partially right.
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    True. Propably best to consider the things I said to be foundations for Bianca to build on in the future. That said, maybe there is already need for at least a small police force, to guard against theft from Bianca's hoard, to investigate disappearing singers, and to handle things like the cheating bakers during the Forest War or the feud over the glazed platter without Bianca needing to get involved herself.
    That noone should need to fear starvation is true too, and is a good thing. Though if anyone does steal in order to avoid starvation nonetheless, then that would be one of those indications for an underlying problem I mentioned.
     
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    CraftingDragon said:
    I was also thinking on greenhouses but planned on waiting till it is feasible. If you still want to introduce them already there is some things tgat should be taken into account.
    -I would not start by building only with glass, your structure will be quite fragile rather big windows.
    - you will need heating too in winter
    - if you have a glass roof you will need to take snow of in the winter, check ondol floor, could be a nice thing to build
    - saffron is actually a bir tricky to grow. Their climate would allow it even outside (at least some of our world subspiecies do) but getting it to bloom is harder as for that the right light conditions are needed. Many plants coordinatevwith the lenght of the day
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    Feel free to mention these concerns! Personally I am satisfied with that I've written and don't plan on changing it. :)
    liberty90 said:
    On the other hand, Daemon and his words that we should be "spreading out our territory away" as fast possible because of the haunted forest is probably overdramatic. It's a slowly growing problem, not something that can eat us during the next 20 years.
    Click to expand...
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    The sooner we expand, the sooner we can begin making our new cities part of the Nine Nations, the sooner we can have access to the larger resources bases they provide us, and make use of their increased available manpower to pursue various technological projects as well as search for various useful ores and larger-scale deforestation projects. The advantages to conquering cities is immense, even if you disagree with me on the short-term threat the Ghost Forest poses.
     
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    For now the "Free People" of Bianca think about making outsider tribes permanently tributary, not about conquering cities. Her control is far from direct. I try to slowly change that for many turns now.

    Better create the inquisition, or her own guard, or both, or something. Nobody expects the inquisition, after all. More seriously: centralize power.
     
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    liberty90 said:
    For now the "Free People" of Bianca think about making outsider tribes permanently tributary, not about conquering cities. Her control is far from direct. I try to slowly change that for many turns now.
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    The reason Bianca's control is indirect is because her people are not concentrated in one place. It is perfectly possible, and indeed desirable, for Bianca to move to and directly rule the most useful of the cities, bringing along a cadre of loyal Nine Nationers to serve as her new administrative caste and future nobility.
     
    Conquest of cities, as opposed to sacking one or two, is not even under consideration, Demon. Creation of armed servants-guards and for example a very small town of Bianca's table-rulers and armed servants around her Great Home, sounds like something that may be plausible if we persuade her.
     
    liberty90 said:
    Conquest of cities, as opposed to sacking one or two, is not even under consideration, Demon.
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    Yes it is.
    LoserThree said:
    "I am not awed of cities. I have heard a great deal about them from the Lan Tribe and from the singer and table-ruler I sent with Kahl. Still, I might like to sack one.

    [ ] [Leave] Prepare a great raiding force and go sack Ekhaicvint
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    The sacking option.
    "I could travel among the people around the lands of the Nine Nations, to better understand them so that I can better guide the tribes of the Nine Nations in subjugating them later.


    [ ] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
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    The conquest option.
     
    No, her Free People consider "conquering" tribes around by making these tribes permanently tributary, not administering any far-away cities. Discussions about this were mentioned. Administering cities is not even under consideration.

    I have spoken with some of the chieftains about 'conquest.' They know tribute, of course, and their tribes have collected it from outsiders. There is some interest in ranging farther and collecting greater tribute, even in setting one outsider tribe to always and forever pay tribute to them. Some summer, perhaps soon, one or more of them will go out to see about it. I don't know if they'll find sense in taking those paying tribute with them out to collect tribute from others. But I can allow them to make that choice themselves. I will tell them about it.
     
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    liberty90 said:
    Armed Forces are also somewhat like raising one tribe over others, but better, slower, and with some luck and skill tribes wouldn't truly understand what is slowly happening. Also: Armed Forces would obey you more than one raised tribe, because soldiers would depend on your authority more, with oaths to you, and with wealth from you. A number of soldiers could be increased very slowly, with observation what works, instead of raising one tribe over all others suddenly and violently. They could be used for conquests when you decide, not any King. You could use any suitable warriors, without restriction to one tribe or another. Obviously, such solution can cause discord, but these benefits are much greater.

    Given that you considered raising one tribe over another I see no reason to not strongly consider the Armed Forces instead, as the slower and more careful way, with various additional benefits.

    You can start slowly, carefully, without having too many soldiers or giving them too much wealth at first, you can try to limit discord. Make people slowly consider this as normal, see what works to motivate soldiers, and only then expand your Armed Forces.

    Maybe I was slightly wrong about motivating with greed and stories about greatness and honour of soldiers could be better. On the other hand, soldiers need the finest weapons, armor and perhaps the most diverse food to be the most useful. They exist to be better than usual warriors after all.

    If you understand how raising one tribe over other tribes could offer more power, then you should understand how slowly raising Armed Forces over usual warriors of the tribes could offer more power. And I believe that this can be a much better way. Let tribes remain equal but less and less important and preferably more and more similar.

    Another idea: you can slowly start to call your land "Empire of United Nations", or really anything that could be still used when you conquer more. I'm not good at names. But in the "Nine Nations" there is a number that should be constantly changed after any additions to the number of tribes, and this is inconvenient. You need to conquer for more power, and we now know how to make roads and minor bridges to transport tribute more easily and to allow your warriors or soldiers to move where they need to move.

    Some of the new tribute could flow not only to you, but also to the victorious Army, or to these tribes that were useful during your conquest. Thanks to this many of your soldiers or people could like conquests. Roads should be extended to these new territories, and then conquest should happen again, and your land should steadily grow until you encounter something too dangerous or useless.

    You would need to control and extract tribute from the newly conquered tribes with the Army at first, but then you could slowly explain to conquered people why you are better than all other Gods or Kings and why they shouldn't fight against you anymore: people need to pay tribute, but you are so wise! There is nobody with more wisdom than you, as you can teach them black soil, soap, arches and many other marvels that would make them better off conquered than free! After a generation or two, they should understand.
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    LoserThree said:
    "This difference between your armed forces and one tribe is that the tribe has unity. The warriors in the armed forces will still belong to their marriages and families and tribes. An oath to me would come first, as oaths do. But why would they want to swear such an oath? I will need a reason to start, a reason that will matter to the people. If one cannot be found, one must be made. I will think on this.

    "It sounds to me, Black Cat, that your 'conquest' is the process of lifting up all the Nine Nations over other peoples in a way similar to how I spoke of raising up a single tribe. That… seems more difficult to oversee but perhaps more easily won. The people of Sleomjash, Tash, and Bima Nolco are likely to respond to such a plan with enthusiasm. And Kuwuzt of Zouchaud would surely leap to bring about such a state of affairs and lead his tribe toward it with all his ability.

    "I am not so sure that these tributary tribes will come to believe that it is always in their best interest to pay me tribute. The people of the Nine Nations believe that, for the most part. But not only are there still occasional refusals, they benefit from their freedom as well. And even if the tributary peoples come to love me as you say, surely they will not so love the free people of the Nine Nations. Just as warriors of the one tribe lifted up over the other others would know constant fighting in pushing down the other eight, so would the warriors of the Nine Nations know constant fighting in pushing down the tribes around them.

    "And this will be more effective than raiding, because some part of all the warriors of the Nine Nations will come together to drive out the warriors of the other tribes. There will be little resistance to regular tribute collection, relative to a raid. But the tribes beyond those will then raid them, with only the warriors of the Nine Nations to defend them. And the warriors of the Nine Nations will have roads for their chariots and wheelbarrows and carts and stone houses and high places all throughout the lands of the other tribes.

    "Yes. I think I see how that might be done. There is so much to be done now, though. There are not even roads and stone houses and high places all throughout the lands of the Nine Nations. And the people do not all make wheelbarrows and do not all have chariots equal to the Sleomjash and Tash tribes. But one day…

    "My singers already teach the people to praise me as a goddess for all I do for them. And these praises were already true, Black Cat. I am here to speak with all you voices because many of your words are well worth the trouble. But you should not forget that the people of the Nine Nations already benefit from my magics and wisdom.

    "The people know 'pretty things' are only the outward signs of honor. They are either an honor of one's own craft, or glory in battle or raiding, or of tribute given in recognition of might or wisdom or honor itself, or they are distributed from one who has much of that. Table-ruling is not a craft which produces pretty friperies. There is no glory in table-ruling. And I do not give tribute to any, ever, for any reason. That leaves only the distribution from one who has much to those who do not. And that is done to level the grounds of owned things. It cannot be done to give frivolities to table-rulers specifically.
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    liberty90 said:
    No, her Free People consider "conquering" tribes around by making these tribes permanently tributary, not administering any far-away cities. Discussions about this were mentioned. Administering cities is not even under consideration.
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    LoserThree said:
    "The Nine Nations are surrounded by untrustworthy outsiders. None have made notable war against the people in living memory. It seems that many of the people think of their raids and counter-raids as real war. My singers can only do so much.
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    No, Bianca's understanding of conquest is the one that you have given to her and you spoke in terms of tribute. The only one equating conquest with tribute here seems to be you Black Cat.

    Previously conflict has been mostly low-level raids to the point that the people of the Nine Nations have forgotten what war truly is, but this is not the case for Bianca. It is thus normal for the people to have no understand of conquest because they are used to raids. This is however irrelevant, as we only need to convince Bianca that taking control of a city directly rather than as a tributary is desirable.

    The mandate of Bianca's administration is the slow integration of new groups of people into the larger social and cultural identity of the Nine Nations. That is a form of conquest, and is perfectly acceptable, once she control a cities and begins enacting such, in time it shall become a part of the nine nations.
     
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    Cities are far away. Conquer a city and try to rule from said city, and any control over current Nine Nations land, all of our improvements, slowly starting ironmaking included, would collapse (into the most dangerous barbarian tribes ever). Far away, no road links nor possibility to build these in any sensible time, tons of tribes in between.

    There are no cities around and "pretyranny" option is about stuff around, not cities.

    Do you seriously think that, say, you can have tribes in one land, conquer a city literally half of continent away, and then rule your old homeland from such enormously distant capital city with literally no road and hostile tribes in between?

    This is not even considered at all. Pretyranny tour is about tribes around and tribute.

    I could travel among the people around the lands of the Nine Nations

    And... Demon... I had many dreams/memories/something about a weird world where World Health Organization, very reputable and scientific one, declared 32 feet as safe distance between outhouses and wells. Adjust that to 40 if you want to be safer, but one hundred? What? This is crazy. Besides. Why exactly bathhouses would waste resources? We need people healthy.

    This disinformation feels to me almost like sabotage. Issue not needed law about 100 feet distance, and you discourage people from outhouses use and end with open defecation problem existing forever and THIS would be health issue.

    Pit latrine - Wikipedia

    The distance from water wells and surface water should be at least 10 meters (32 feet) to decrease the risk of groundwater pollution.[11]

    Good point about caring more about health of slaves and allowing the full pit to decompose for a while before emptying that stuff, though.
    Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Jun 1, 2019 at 7:44 AM, finished with 45 posts and 6 votes.
    • [X] [Term] 5 years
      [X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
      [X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
      [X] [Cacophony] Demonic Spoon
      [X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
      [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
      [X] [Term] 10 years
      [X] [Reply] "Here is a stone. Speak to it for all the good it will do you."
      [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
      [X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
      [X] [Reply] Keep a record for Bianca's return
      [X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon
      [x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
    Click to expand...

    Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Jun 1, 2019 at 11:43 AM, finished with 45 posts and 6 votes.
    • [X] [Term] 5 years
      [X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
      [X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
      [X] [Cacophony] Demonic Spoon
      [X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
      [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
      [X] [Term] 10 years
      [X] [Reply] "Here is a stone. Speak to it for all the good it will do you."
      [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
      [X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
      [X] [Reply] Keep a record for Bianca's return
      [X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon
      [x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
    Click to expand...
     
    Last edited:
    There is one more thing that I, Dragon wich to know. There seems to be much disagreement between the voices on the distanse op laces in and around the nine nations. Could you Bianca, when the chariot wheel counter give us the distances from end to end of the nine nation as well as the distances between the biggest villages of all tribes or at least the distance from those to your home.
    How far in your distance measure can a person travel at a normal phase in one day. And how many days of travel did it take to get to the closest city that your traveler visited.
    Seems there is much debate on things that you could get an answer on by asking.
    Also would people be interested in an commonly updated notesheet or something to store information on things said and techniques tought? Some wersion of etherpad or something?
     
    Last edited:
    [Information Dump : Geographic Information]
    Here is what we know of the world from previous conversations:
    The Nine Nations consist of aproximately 350 villages with a thousand people each.
    To the west of the Nine Nations lies the Sea, bordered by the Zouchaud and Naumo tribes. Possibly far to the west past the sea lies the possibly island fortress city of Enonl.
    To the north are a people who trade fine clear stones. Possibly diamonds? Some ways beyond them is a tribe of lesser giants whom live along the sea.
    The east is uncertain. The Galugr tribe comes from far the the east where they live in great woodlands.
    To the south is the Vile Forest. Bordered by the Galugr tribe who are in turn bordered by the Eppam and Sleomjash.
    I believe that the Chaussow border the Nine Nations to the south-east, but do not know which nation.
    Beyond the Vile Forest are the remaining Forest People, who are traders had to avoid. Possibly by passing through Chaussow land to the east.
    South of the Forest people is Wrul on Buraghm River, which I flows either to the north or the south, but must meet with the sea to the west eventually. Further south along this river is the city of Liavint.
    From the Tricky Merchant we learned of a city and rivers that I think were either Wrul or Liavint, and that far to the south is the sea.
    To the east of Liavint, over some low mountains, is the city of Ekhaicuint at the meeting of the rivers Oasimb and Yont.

    [Information Request : Geographic Information]
    Am I correct that the sea lies to the west, the Vile Forrest to the south, and that the Chaussow are to the south-east?
    Through what lands does the greatest single river of the Nine Nations flow?
    When the peoples who live along the sea travel the coast, in which direction does the land curve?
    If I am correct, then the coast to the north should be mostly straight, and that to the south should curve to the west.
    During the winters does it become cold enough for sea ice to form?
     
    Ciber said:
    The Nine Nations consist of aproximately 350 villages with a thousand people each.
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    "350 villages with a thousand people each"? Overly optimistic. She said that the biggest villages have about a thousand people, not all.
    Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Jun 2, 2019 at 4:36 AM, finished with 52 posts and 6 votes.
    • [X] [Term] 5 years
      [X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
      [X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
      [X] [Cacophony] Demonic Spoon
      [X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
      [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
      [X] [Term] 10 years
      [X] [Reply] "Here is a stone. Speak to it for all the good it will do you."
      [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
      [X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
      [X] [Reply] Keep a record for Bianca's return
      [X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon
      [x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
    Click to expand...
     
    Hello, fellow questers, I've just yesterday binge-read this quest, and I must say, there's a lot I've learned in this thread. Now, let me try to contribute some

    Hello, Bianca, the Undying One. You can call me Dreamer, for I have more interest in knowing what baffles you about the workings of the world -such as what rainbows even are-, and answer most such queries. The answers can be a little too lengthy, but if you ask for it I can try to keep myself from babbling too much. If you don't ask for me to be brief, on the other hand, will mean I'll babble quite a bit.

    So, what are you curious about or brings you wonder that you would want me to explain?



    Now, even if I do like to talk more about things that interest someone out of wonder, it would be remiss of me to leave without first telling you about useful things. And the useful thing I've decided to share with you in this conversation is a very simple tool named Abacus. The purpose of the Abacus is to make simple math easier.

    Imagine a rectangular frame. Divide the space within the frame into two smaller rectangles - but the bigger side of the small rectangles should be the same as the frame. Now imagine 14 side-by-side rods within the frame, the endings of each rod should be connected to bigger sides of the frame. In each rod, there should be seven beads - five of them in the bigger rectangle, and two of them in the smalle rectangle.

    That's it for the construction of the tool, now on how to use it. The position of the abacus to the user should be with the bigger rectangle closer to the user. The abacus should be resting on a flat surface. Initially, all the beads should be pressed against the frame (the 5 beads of each rod to the frame closest to the user, and the 2 beads to the frame furthest to the user).

    Now that the set-up is done, here's how you use it. The 5 beads of the rod furthest to the right, is worth 1 each. Next rod to the left, each bead is worth 10 each. Next one 100, the next 1000, so on and so forth up to the last rod. On the smaller rectangle, the value of the beads furthest to the right is 5. The next to the left 50, the next 500, the next 5000 and so forth.

    As you count, you move the beads towards the division that separates the bigger rectangle and the smaller rectangle. When all the beads of a rod of the biggest rectangle have been 'counted', you can exchange them for one bead, in the same rod, of the smaller rectangle, moving the beads of the bigger rectangle to their initial position and moving one of the beads of the smaller rectangle towards the division. In other words, 5 beads of value 1 are equal to 1 bead of value 5. And when both smaller rectangle beads of a given rod have been counted, you can exchange them for one bead of the biggest rectangle of the next rod to the left. 2 beads of value 5 are the same as one bead of value 10.

    While explaining it may seem that the abacus is a useless tool, but believe me, when someone has learned how to use it they can make counts unbelievably faster than counting without it. Especially so if you are dealing with several numbers above 100. The counting of 15834 plus 78125 plus 2415 or other such numbers can be made in less than a minute by an experienced user.

    Thank you for hearing me, Bianca - I can call you Bianca without any title, right? I hope I've been useful and I also hope you will speak a little more of things you find yourself curious about even if they appear to have no use.
     
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    liberty90 said:
    "350 villages with a thousand people each"? Overly optimistic. She said that the biggest villages have about a thousand people, not all.
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    She said that she is confident the nine nations would be capable of combating a trained, well equipped, force of 20,000 from cities. She also said something like one in five of the population of the nine are warriors.

    Assuming she understood that we believe that the city-soldiers are capable of taking down several times their number, and also assuming she underestimates them but still believes that our beliefs have some truth, I would think Bianca thinks that each city-warrior is hypothetically capable of taking down double their number (rather than several times). This would low-ball the number of warriors of the nine nations into 40,000 strong.

    Taking into consideration that at least 1 in 5 of the population is made of warriors, then the total population of the nine is around 200,000 ~ 300,000. It may be that more than 1 in five are warriors, but the fact that not all troops could be made to mobilized counteracts it, keeping the math right-ish.
     
    Fruit Walls: Urban Farming in the 1600s
    Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Jun 5, 2019 at 1:35 AM, finished with 55 posts and 6 votes.
    • [X] [Term] 5 years
      [X] [Leave] Go to Burgeck and correct their missteps
      [X] [Leave] Pretyranny Tour
      [X] [Cacophony] Demonic Spoon
      [X] [Reply] There is a new idea: If Servant and Huo share the same solution, then the solution is undisputably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possibly with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
      [X] [Cacophony] liberty90
      [X] [Term] 10 years
      [X] [Reply] "Here is a stone. Speak to it for all the good it will do you."
      [X] [Cacophony] Ciber
      [X] [Reply] They may then go to Burgeck and petition you where you are. If they are willing to make the trip the matter might actually be worthy of your personal attention.
      [X] [Reply] Keep a record for Bianca's return
      [X] [Cacophony] CraftingDragon
      [x] [Reply] Still open for opinions, I would like an opinion where we realise the fact that Huo is just a person and might make mistakes, and things could be taken to Bianca if important. For example if Servant and Huo has the same solution, then the solution is probably valid, but if they don't come to an agreement they could send the petitioner to Bianca for "higher ruling", possible with an need for additional tribute for possibly wasting her time.
    Click to expand...
     
    My name is Devil Girl, hello!

    Why we want to create tyranny over outsiders? why this talk about conquest? Because Bianca can be evil, soo let's be evil for the sake of evil stuff? stupid. You know what would support her rule better?

    Talking with tribes around. EXPLAINING to tribes around reality. its in their best interest to recognize Bianca as their deity, cease raids, allow her singers and table-rulers, give away their gold. NO VIOLENCE NEEDED, why? because the NIne Nations AND her lesser giants are healthier, better feed, and better everything thanks to the wisdom of Bianca. only rule of bianca brings prosperity and only fools cannot see that.

    By the way how much spirits can remember from life if anything? Can you fish underworld for spirits of magicians and extract secrets from spirits?
     
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    devilgirl666 said:
    My name is Devil Girl, hello!

    Why we want to create tyranny over outsiders? why this talk about conquest? Because Bianca can be evil, soo let's be evil for the sake of evil stuff? stupid. You know what would support her rule better?

    talking with tribes around. EXPLAINING to tribes around reality. its in their best interest to recognize Bianca as their deity, cease raids, allow her singers and table-rulers, give away their gold. NO VIOLENCE NEEDED, why? because the NIne Nations AND her lesser giants are healthier, better feed, and better everything thanks to the wisdom of Bianca. only rule of bianca brings prosperity and only fools cannot see that.
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    This is my opinion as well, war is a waste of lives and resources. And subjects that have been forsed to be subjects with war won't usually be good subjects
     
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