0. Quest Mechanics and Details
0
Code:
                         NOTICES
Code:
Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
  (the QMPC does NOT hear what you write right now)
Next story update : Sometime in July would be nice
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 3,146 words
Code:
Anything I post that's not in text blocks or in spoilers
may be understood to be said by the QMPC, with the
exception of the Collaboration Post
  (see Collaboration Post for details on itself)
Code:
Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes

If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
Code:
This is not meant to be Plagiarism Quest.

You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources.  When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.
Code:
 I have added some players who contributed a fair amount
the last two times as thread collaborators who can update
   the collaboration post. If you'd like to update the
collaboration post too, contact me by PM and we'll talk
                        about it.




Check the Collaboration Post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.

If you're not already involved in the game, portions of either of these may be difficult to follow. But you can skip to the line that says "B R E A K" in the latest threadmarked story post and skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.

If there's no corresponding Closing The Vote post in the Informational threadmarks for the latest story post in (normal?) Threadmarks, then the game is in a cacophonous interlude and the QMPC will hear what you post, unless you do so with spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a cacophonous interlude.

So you can engage with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans and you can compose a message to the QMPC all whether or not the game is in a cacophonous interlude. And once it is, you can vote and/or send a message to the QMPC by creating a post in the thread.

If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them.

If you want to send a message to the QMPC, though, keep in mind that they are a creature of their time. They may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to the QMPC, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of the QMPC's understanding of the world.

I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of the QMPC and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell them.

The QMPC has different values than we do. They have different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Their goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But they want something, and will listen most attentively to players that tell them how to get more of or closer to what they want.
Code:
                    Collaboration Post!
  1. The Quest Master posts story updates that have 3 parts.
    • Quest Master Player Character responses to player posts made during the last cacophonous interlude
    • An update by the QMPC following a break of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what the character believes is worth mentioning
    • Requests by the QMPC for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
  2. Following each story update, players posts are audible to the QMPC until voting is closed.
    This is the cacophonous interlude.
    • Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
    • No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
    • Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with each other without doing so in ways the QMPC can hear.
  3. When votes are tallied, the QM collects player posts so that it may be known what the QMPC heard.
    • Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting. And only identical write-ins accumulate.
    • Some votes are querying the players for their preference, in which case the only suboptimal answer is that which does not accurately reflect the preference of the players who nonetheless chose it (I don't think these kinds of misunderstandings can be helped).
    • Other votes are intended as puzzles where there is a choice the QM believes would best meet what they believe to be the goals of the players.
      • However, in these sorts of votes the QM has in mind a choice that would provide the players with what the QM thinks they most want, but which is not listed in the available votes.
      • In this way, clever write-ins are encouraged.
  4. QM reads player posts, researches their suggestions, checks notes for precedent, determines what the QMPC thinks they already know on the topic, what they're right or wrong about, how likely they are to engage with the topic, how likely the QMPC's followers are to follow-through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be later on.
  5. QM composes QMPC's responses to player posts made during the cacophonous interlude and updates their notes.
  6. When narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, QM devises tests for QMPC or other characters and makes those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
    • Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew modification of the Burning Wheel system, mangled to suit the format of this game. (The Burning Wheelis a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
      • Tests may be a contest between two characters or against a static target with tiered results.
      • The rules being used and followed will be described in each post in which tests are made by die rolls.
      • Normal mortals count 7s and better as successes.
      • Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better as successes.
      • Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better as successes.
      • New gods and characters who have otherwise stolen the power of Old Gods count 4s and better as successes.
      • Old Gods count 3s and better as successes.
      • Sorcery and other magic skills lower the threshold of success by 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are the skill being tested, not when they provide a bonus to other skills. Players may note that Old Gods' threshold of success does not improve when they use magic.
      • Bonus dice provided by Kahl's Warhorses and any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow reroll 9s & 10s and keeps successes. These same bonus dice cancels successes on 1s & 2s, rerolls those, and additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2, 9, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, a 1 or 2 that comes up when a 9 on a bonus die is rerolled don't cancel successes or lead to further rerolling.
    • Research project results are determined by percentile dice with results falling into 5 tiers.
      • Uh oh: something has gone horribly wrong
      • Nuh uh: failure, but the boring kind
      • Huh: partial success
      • Uh huh: full success
      • Whoa: superior special case success
    • When players expect a test to be coming up -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they can improve the odds of the test turning out the way they want by providing the QMPC with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. That is, decent advice adds dice.
  7. QM composes the QMPC's post-break update, player vote questions, and player vote options.
  8. GOTO 1
The QMPC is intended to be the only character the players will interact with in this game. (It's kind of possible that the players could maneuver the QMPC to surrender control of the Astute Cacophony to another character, but unlikely.)

The QMPC is a small, evil woman who knows magic and has not died, despite looking like she probably should have at some point. She goes by the name Bianca the Undying. Her early life took place in the Paleolithic, in which she has said that she traveled around quite a bit and came to understand the malleable nature of populations of people and animals and even the land itself. At some point she was trapped underground, to her displeasure. She remained trapped for a very long time.

When Bianca got out, she found her way to a community of eight tribes living pastoral and agrarian lifestyles in the local Copper Age. She made these people hers and they relied on her for magically enriching their fields so that they did not need to slash, burn, and move around a bit, unlike their neighbors. Bianca and her followers formalized their relationships into the Eight Ways Pact. Later, another tribe joined Bianca's followers bringing small horses and the Bronze Age and their pact was updated with a ninth directive.

Bianca has an agenda that requires her to have more power than she does right now. She believes that achieving divinity will get her that power.
 
Last edited:
21e
On the gripping hand, the choice does align with the strong interest in tech-up and mild disinterest in metaplot that appears most players have had for the duration of this game and the previous. I'm not complaining, I just think it merits remark.

Uhhh .. it's not that we don't want to interact with the metaplot. It's that we don't believe it exists. Or at least, that it isn't dynamic over time where our actions will change how things go before we go proactively poking static always there until we interact with them things. It's not like authors for these kinds of civ type tech development quests have big spreadsheets with events laid out over time and things happening in the background, especially when not involving an existing canon setting with a specific already existing timeline. At best, it's typically a static world with the illusion of things going on over time. The only plausible way of interacting with the world for this thing, for the meta of what QMs actually can humanly handle, is to tech/infrastructure up, exploring as you need to, to support that.
 
Last edited:
Alright, edited. I just think it's unreasonable to expect most people to believe that a single person is putting that much work into modeling timelines of actions of the various actors and sticking to the existence of real in setting deadlines, against all prior evidence to the contrary for this type of art form. Especially when it's specifically advertised as a tech someone up quest; we expect that other stuff to be mostly fluff.
 
Last edited:
I'm not completely sure what level of detail you mean.

Perhaps our introduction of iron and gunpowder caused many migrations, for example, and perhaps this world version of fantasy-Egypt or fantasy-Middle-East was plunged into instability (like during the Bronze Age Collapse of OTL), and perhaps there are reactions of gods about that going on in the background. I only speculate, I don't know whether this is the case, I'm not QM. But for such thing you need only some common sense and pretty basic notes IMHO, and there is no need to simulate more than a few actors really.

And... The best way to change such metaplots is often to, ironically, up-tech. xd
(As in the example above)
 
H: I addition, we honestly don't have all that much agency aside from teching Bianca up? Like, we can make some choices every turn, but those honestly don't let us change all that much. But coaching Bianca into things like cannonry, medicine, improved farming and good sailing can have a massive impact.
 
Yes, I believe that this world is indeed living, but changes in tech are pretty much the biggest imaginable imho.
 
There's also... what would even heavy interaction with this presumed metaplot look like?? Bianca just does her own thing, mostly, isn't that the entire premise?
 
There's also... what would even heavy interaction with the metaplot look like?? Bianca just does her own thing, mostly, isn't that the entire premise?

We could be interested more in making her divine, but first of all I'm not even sure that's a good idea :D , and second, we are utterly ignorant about magic from design.

Erweh? I care about Erweh and fully expect him to constantly meddle in metaplot, but again, the best way to combat that is imho uptech Bianca's people into more magical universities xd
 
I assumed the metaplot is disregarding the 25 pages of wikipedia and just talking to Bianca about conquering the world effectively. Thus my focus on godhood usurpation.
 
It's not like authors for these kinds of civ type tech development quests have big spreadsheets with events laid out over time and things happening in the background
You cant prove that. I'm not saying it's true. But you don't know that Loser is the only QM. He could secretly be an entire room full of monkeys. Or at least Three monkeys. Three is a reasonable number of monkeys. And I'm not confirming anything, in fact I would like to pointedly deny everything, but I live and breath and dream and eat spreadsheets. My point is that you can't actually be sure. And even if you are sure, then you should at least suspend your disbelief for the sake of roleplay.
 
I think it would have been more effective to post the benefits of options beforehand or not at all, as opposed to posting them as opportunity costs after the fact.

In the former case, it feels like selecting from a group of shinies, while in the latter case it feels like losing a group of shinies. Different emotive impact.
 
I think it would have been more effective to post the benefits of options beforehand or not at all, as opposed to posting them as opportunity costs after the fact.

In the former case, it feels like selecting from a group of shinies, while in the latter case it feels like losing a group of shinies. Different emotive impact.

Agreed. Being required to make this sort of permanent mechanical decision blindly is just plain bad game design.
 
IMHO in the future we should think more about early industrial machinery. Even if the people prove unable to create proper steam engines, early textile industry could be powered nicely with water power.
 
21.f. regarding the existence of a metaplot and some other topics
21f
@LoserThree

If I understood stuff right, while they make their own laws and judge their disputes, civil service of this fantasy "Switzerland" (Tennerland) basically still depends on the city of Biancvint (the Palace School) at the level of higher education, statistics, coordination, etc.
If governance of Tennerland was reliant on any one school the Great Tabulation would still exist for the Tennerland. Three of the Five Great Schools account for large fractions of the bureaucrats within the territory governed by the Elder Speakers. And bureaucrats from the other two are our there, too, in lesser numbers. The Wreol and Unmarked schools are more likely to export their graduates to the Tenner-ruled cities than they are to send them deeper into Tennerland. But they're in there, too.
I'm not actually unhappy, I just enjoy complaining.

Well ok, I am unhappy.
All of these people on the internet being WRONG.
Very understandable. Grouch freely.
Uhhh .. it's not that we don't want to interact with the metaplot. It's that we don't believe it exists. Or at least, that it isn't dynamic over time where our actions will change how things go before we go proactively poking static always there until we interact with them things. It's not like authors for these kinds of civ type tech development quests have big spreadsheets with events laid out over time and things happening in the background, especially when not involving an existing canon setting with a specific already existing timeline. At best, it's typically a static world with the illusion of things going on over time. The only plausible way of interacting with the world for this thing, for the meta of what QMs actually can humanly handle, is to tech/infrastructure up, exploring as you need to, to support that.
Well you're right about the spreadsheets, at least. I use tables in a Google Document because spreadsheets are (mostly) for math. Formatting within a spreadsheet cell is much more limited than formatting within a document table cell.

And while the world is neither static nor static-until-players-touch-it, on consideration that's probably not apparent to the players and also probably not important.

I could just as easily say the the players are apparently mildly disinterested in engaging with the plot and strongly interested in the tech up. And the plot, I hope, is apparent where metaplot might not be.
Alright, edited. I just think it's unreasonable to expect most people to believe that a single person is putting that much work into modeling timelines of actions of the various actors and sticking to the existence of real in setting deadlines, against all prior evidence to the contrary for this type of art form. Especially when it's specifically advertised as a tech someone up quest; we expect that other stuff to be mostly fluff.
I think you're overestimating how much work that would take. What you're talking about is worldbuilding, or at least its history aspect. The difference being that history precedes a story while it's contemporary to a game.

There's a YouTube video that might have been talking about a worldbuilding technique or a commercially available worldbuilding tool that I remember putting it like this:
  1. Create five concurrent timelines:
    • Geographic
    • Military
    • Religious
    • Cultural
    • Economic
  2. Put events on the timelines
  3. Make sure every event is caused by, leads to, or otherwise relates to events on the other timelines, adding events as necessary
  4. Never put accurate or comprehensive accounts of this history in your story, always limit the scope of any telling
This can be a fun way to while away an afternoon or twenty.

You're very correct that this is advertised as a tech-up game. I have no complaint that players interact with the tech-up mechanics more than they interact with the plot mechanics. And that nonetheless aligns with the choice to firstly recapture the Refuge of Grace.
Perhaps our introduction of iron and gunpowder caused many migrations, for example, and perhaps this world version of fantasy-Egypt or fantasy-Middle-East was plunged into instability (like during the Bronze Age Collapse of OTL), and perhaps there are reactions of gods about that going on in the background. I only speculate, I don't know whether this is the case, I'm not QM. But for such thing you need only some common sense and pretty basic notes IMHO, and there is no need to simulate more than a few actors really.
I think first that you're describing the static-until-fucked-with stuff that the Gavinfoxx doesn't count as metaplot, which is fair of them.

And I also think you're right that they're overestimating the amount of work that takes.

Maybe they're right in that it takes a lot of work to do very well. Maybe it takes a lot less work to do well enough, which is what I'm aiming for here.

And, yeah, you may be assured that introduction of various things has had wide effects on the setting.
H: I addition, we honestly don't have all that much agency aside from teching Bianca up? Like, we can make some choices every turn, but those honestly don't let us change all that much. But coaching Bianca into things like cannonry, medicine, improved farming and good sailing can have a massive impact.
The escalation with Erweh occurred as a result of player choices starting with part 8 if not with the scourging of the forest before that.

The office of bureaucrat exists because of how the players responded to Servant. And his first appearance is one of several instances where players decided against investing in hierarchy and centralization. Another was the handling of the Friends of Gawdtha in part 17, where the road to feudalism could have been kicked off as a relationship between Tennerland people and outsiders. Instead, approximations of proto-feudalism are coming up among outsiders ruled by Tenners.

The existence of Glaugr Tribe and their mish-mash heritage are the consequence of player decisions, too.

And almost every vote can be meaningfully modified by giving advice that supports or reframes or builds on the choice the voters go with.

I understand that players feel they don't have agency outside of tech-up. I do not deny the validity of those feelings, I only express that I do not get them.

Do any of you have suggestions for how I can make it more likely that players will feel they have agency outside of tech-up?

(And this isn't something I regard as a big deal. As stated, tech-up is the point of the game and I like how it's going. But I am not, at this time, going to pass up what looks to me like an opportunity to attempt to improve matters.)
I think it would have been more effective to post the benefits of options beforehand or not at all, as opposed to posting them as opportunity costs after the fact.

In the former case, it feels like selecting from a group of shinies, while in the latter case it feels like losing a group of shinies. Different emotive impact.
The benefits of the options were posted beforehand in the vote itself. If you have a moment and willingness to do so, please show me how you find those might have been better communicated.
 
Uhhh .. it's not that we don't want to interact with the metaplot. It's that we don't believe it exists. Or at least, that it isn't dynamic over time where our actions will change how things go before we go proactively poking static always there until we interact with them things. It's not like authors for these kinds of civ type tech development quests have big spreadsheets with events laid out over time and things happening in the background, especially when not involving an existing canon setting with a specific already existing timeline. At best, it's typically a static world with the illusion of things going on over time. The only plausible way of interacting with the world for this thing, for the meta of what QMs actually can humanly handle, is to tech/infrastructure up, exploring as you need to, to support that.
I would like to chime in that this is not my default assumption.

Most great civ quests I've read seemed to have off screen development, especially for other civs, but including for the player civ. If, say, a neighbor or internal minority had some problem or development foreshadowed that the player base then ignored, it could come to massively bite them in the ass.

Example: Player base went isolationist and didn't notice the development of gunpowder weaponry until their great walls got blown up through "magic".

Anyway, I find it kind of weird that you argue with other players in the we form. For a moment I thought you too identify as plural, but your signature indicates otherwise. Which means that you presume to speak for the whole player base and I can't figure out why.
No, more it's perfectly fine to make mechanical decisions blindly, but in that case we should only get the mechanical results of the option that won.
I disagree. I both understand the preference of QMs to "force" IC decisions by not giving a list of OOC benefits at all (the QM of one of the most popular quests on this forum does it all the time) and at the same time am very much a fan of QMs who are willing to answer "what if" questions accurately and not hide things that aren't spoilers.

Being upset over the "lost" opportunities is pointless. We all voted to the best of our knowledge based on what the QM decided to reveal. Seeing the goodies that we missed should not make us feel bad about ourselves. Nor should the decision to hide said goodies in order to not influence us OOC too much make us feel bad about the QM.
I think first that you're describing the static-until-fucked-with stuff that the @Gavinfoxx doesn't count as metaplot, which is fair of them.

And I also think you're right that they're overestimating the amount of work that takes.

Maybe they're right in that it takes a lot of work to do very well. Maybe it takes a lot less work to do well enough, which is what I'm aiming for here.

And, yeah, you may be assured that introduction of various things has had wide effects on the setting.
Are there any examples of metaplot you could give us that won't be spoilers anymore because they happened enough in the past and/or got paved over by our actions strongly enough that telling us won't matter?
I understand that players feel they don't have agency outside of tech-up. I do not deny the validity of those feelings, I only express that I do not get them.

Do any of you have suggestions for how I can make it more likely that players will feel they have agency outside of tech-up?
One reason for that feeling could be the impression that Bianca is intelligent. No intelligent ruler would trust some blind AI box that acts like us to make decisions outside its competence or decide how she should live her own life. We can't decide her values and priorities (outside our mind control power during votes). We also can't really trick her to do something that goes against her interest. We can only give her tools she can use for self-realization.

That said, personally I have plans to try and engage with her personality, over the avenue of hobbies and interests other than power, immortality, godhood or manpower and quality of arms. But I am struggling how to, say, introduce her to art without being able to post art (like music for example). I don't know enough about music myself to, like, explain notes and then post an acoustic song in improvised/simplified note form for instance. But that doesn't matter. I'll think of something else if needed. Or accept the limitations of the magical device.
 
That said, personally I have plans to try and engage with her personality, over the avenue of hobbies and interests other than power, immortality, godhood or manpower and quality of arms. But I am struggling how to, say, introduce her to art without being able to post art (like music for example). I don't know enough about music myself to, like, explain notes and then post an acoustic song in improvised/simplified note form for instance. But that doesn't matter. I'll think of something else if needed. Or accept the limitations of the magical device.

Speak on what those things evoke within you to make them worthy of consideration in her priceless free time? I personally stick with godhood and the background struggle towards it because I'm wondering if we hit NG+ or something, but also because I'm curious if actual divinity would change the interaction or interface she provides. Character study through apotheosis I suppose.

If I had to choose something else, however, music definitely would be great to start with. Without touching a single other document I could mention some developmental history I know, some cultural nuances that I've grown up with, cool quirks and tricks like syncopation, or simply just lean into more nefariousness by describing various ways music has been used as propaganda and it's aftermath. Could be fun and whatnot, but the point of the gesture is if you are aiming for something that could feasibly get swatted away by the numerous aforementioned priorities of "eh, needs to be practical, relevant, or useful now, not after years" then I absolutely would recommend a "free time/take a break/all work and no play makes an immortal tyrant" type approach. It's basically the only one I'm using at the moment.

It just so happens that "take a break" directly coincides with "fight this giant whale for godhood". Shrug.
 
Back
Top