Cacophonous Interlude is NOT active
(the QMPC does NOT hear what you write right now)
Next story update : Sometime in July would be nice
Next vote closing : TBD
Progress toward next update : 3,146 words
Code:
Anything I post that's not in text blocks or in spoilers
may be understood to be said by the QMPC, with the
exception of the Collaboration Post
(see Collaboration Post for details on itself)
Code:
Players do not need to use code blocks or spoilers
outside of cacophonous interludes
If you use code blocks, please limit yourself to 32 lines
and your lines to 57 characters, so that people on mobile
can read them without scrolling within the code block
Code:
This is not meant to be Plagiarism Quest.
You're not discouraged from using outside reference
material or quoting other sources. When you do, please
cite your sources in spoilers or a code box.
Code:
I have added some players who contributed a fair amount
the last two times as thread collaborators who can update
the collaboration post. If you'd like to update the
collaboration post too, contact me by PM and we'll talk
about it.
Check the Collaboration Post and read the latest story post in the Threadmarks to get a rough idea of where things are at.
If you're not already involved in the game, portions of either of these may be difficult to follow. But you can skip to the line that says "B R E A K" in the latest threadmarked story post and skim from there to get an idea of what's going on.
If there's no corresponding Closing The Vote post in the Informational threadmarks for the latest story post in (normal?) Threadmarks, then the game is in a cacophonous interlude and the QMPC will hear what you post, unless you do so with spoilers or code boxes. The NOTICES portion at the top of this post should also tell you if the game is in a cacophonous interlude.
So you can engage with other players, make suggestions, ask questions, and propose plans and you can compose a message to the QMPC all whether or not the game is in a cacophonous interlude. And once it is, you can vote and/or send a message to the QMPC by creating a post in the thread.
If you want to vote, simply do so as you would in other quests on this board. You may look at other players' votes to see how yours should be formatted. And you may check the tally to see that yours are counted as you intend them.
If you want to send a message to the QMPC, though, keep in mind that they are a creature of their time. They may not understand what you mean if you don't take the time to make it clear. This game rewards and demands work from its players. When a player wants to introduce a concept or tool or technology to the QMPC, that player will probably need to expend effort to explain it carefully, and take into consideration the limits of the QMPC's understanding of the world.
I think this is similar enough to Graeber's 'interpretive labor' that we can use the term colloquially to describe what is being asked of players. Put yourself in the mind of the QMPC and ask yourself how such a person can be made to understand what you want to tell them.
The QMPC has different values than we do. They have different assumptions about the world and objects and forces within it. Their goals may not align directly with number-go-up or color-get-big gaming agendas. But they want something, and will listen most attentively to players that tell them how to get more of or closer to what they want.
The Quest Master posts story updates that have 3 parts.
Quest Master Player Character responses to player posts made during the last cacophonous interlude
An update by the QMPC following a break of varying length but usually some number of years, covering what the character believes is worth mentioning
Requests by the QMPC for direction on a number of issues, which the players will provide in the form of votes
Following each story update, players posts are audible to the QMPC until voting is closed.
This is the cacophonous interlude.
Players may convey any information they can represent in text.
No images, sounds, or hyperlinks will get through (this is my limitation, not a limitation of the game, so please do not try to transcend it with clever protocol tricks).
Players may use spoilers or code blocks to communicate with each other without doing so in ways the QMPC can hear.
When votes are tallied, the QM collects player posts so that it may be known what the QMPC heard.
Votes are tallied in the conventional fashion. So only votes in the most recent post by each player are counted. [X] marks what the player is voting. And only identical write-ins accumulate.
Some votes are querying the players for their preference, in which case the only suboptimal answer is that which does not accurately reflect the preference of the players who nonetheless chose it (I don't think these kinds of misunderstandings can be helped).
Other votes are intended as puzzles where there is a choice the QM believes would best meet what they believe to be the goals of the players.
However, in these sorts of votes the QM has in mind a choice that would provide the players with what the QM thinks they most want, but which is not listed in the available votes.
In this way, clever write-ins are encouraged.
QM reads player posts, researches their suggestions, checks notes for precedent, determines what the QMPC thinks they already know on the topic, what they're right or wrong about, how likely they are to engage with the topic, how likely the QMPC's followers are to follow-through in the matter, and finally what the result is going to be later on.
QM composes QMPC's responses to player posts made during the cacophonous interlude and updates their notes.
When narrative benefits from uncertainty and chance, QM devises tests for QMPC or other characters and makes those tests using die rolls on a post made just for that purpose.
Skill or attribute tests will be made with a largely undocumented homebrew modification of the Burning Wheel system, mangled to suit the format of this game. (The Burning Wheelis a good system and I encourage you to check it out.)
Tests may be a contest between two characters or against a static target with tiered results.
The rules being used and followed will be described in each post in which tests are made by die rolls.
Normal mortals count 7s and better as successes.
Heroic characters and characters who are otherwise innately magical count 6s and better as successes.
Demigod characters and characters who otherwise possess some spark of divinity count 5s and better as successes.
New gods and characters who have otherwise stolen the power of Old Gods count 4s and better as successes.
Old Gods count 3s and better as successes.
Sorcery and other magic skills lower the threshold of success by 1 to a minimum of 3 only when they are the skill being tested, not when they provide a bonus to other skills. Players may note that Old Gods' threshold of success does not improve when they use magic.
Bonus dice provided by Kahl's Warhorses and any incendiary devices more complicated than a burning arrow reroll 9s & 10s and keeps successes. These same bonus dice cancels successes on 1s & 2s, rerolls those, and additional 1s & 2s cancel additional successes. More 1s, 2, 9, or 10s mean more rerolling and more successes or cancelations, but only in the manner of the original die. That is, a 1 or 2 that comes up when a 9 on a bonus die is rerolled don't cancel successes or lead to further rerolling.
Research project results are determined by percentile dice with results falling into 5 tiers.
Uh oh: something has gone horribly wrong
Nuh uh: failure, but the boring kind
Huh: partial success
Uh huh: full success
Whoa: superior special case success
When players expect a test to be coming up -- for example if they vote for an invasion or to send a diplomat to manipulate a foreign leader -- they can improve the odds of the test turning out the way they want by providing the QMPC with advice specific to that matter. If the advice is not mistaken or outright bad, there will be at least a chance it will help. That is, decent advice adds dice.
QM composes the QMPC's post-break update, player vote questions, and player vote options.
GOTO 1
The QMPC is intended to be the only character the players will interact with in this game. (It's kind of possible that the players could maneuver the QMPC to surrender control of the Astute Cacophony to another character, but unlikely.)
The QMPC is a small, evil woman who knows magic and has not died, despite looking like she probably should have at some point. She goes by the name Bianca the Undying. Her early life took place in the Paleolithic, in which she has said that she traveled around quite a bit and came to understand the malleable nature of populations of people and animals and even the land itself. At some point she was trapped underground, to her displeasure. She remained trapped for a very long time.
When Bianca got out, she found her way to a community of eight tribes living pastoral and agrarian lifestyles in the local Copper Age. She made these people hers and they relied on her for magically enriching their fields so that they did not need to slash, burn, and move around a bit, unlike their neighbors. Bianca and her followers formalized their relationships into the Eight Ways Pact. Later, another tribe joined Bianca's followers bringing small horses and the Bronze Age and their pact was updated with a ninth directive.
Bianca has an agenda that requires her to have more power than she does right now. She believes that achieving divinity will get her that power.
Missed the cutoff point, but still wanted to comment that in the future it may be a good idea to adapt our ideas for the culture and context we find ourselves in. In addition we have the basic blueprints of most civilizations at our fingertips. A deep enough dive into the internet should be able to find some example of a civilization that tried X thing and where there isn't an example we can cobble together bits of civilizations until we get something that works.I don't know about the rest of the people reading this but I want to see a civilization that takes what we give it and constructs something unique rather than some optimized state that has lost its culture.
In short let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
I don't think you have to worry about losing culture. I'm not sure how you all could make that happen, actually, what with the mummy-shaped filter between you and whoever's culture y'll might want to strip away.
But I like the idea of building something unique rather than cookie-cutter. Like, I'm not sure cookie-cutter perfect efficiency is possible what with the limiting aspects of communication not only of content but intent. But anyway, like, listen to your heart or something.
"So be it, then. The Chaussow will be warned, the meager loot will go to the chosen, and all the Warriors of the Nine Nations will press on against the Forest People."
[X] [Followup] Cautiously search for the Forest People and demand tribute
[X] [Loot] Let the chosen take what is there
[X] [Scavengers] Gather the most bloodthirsty warriors and send them to meet the Chaussow
This is Black Cat, Great Undying One. You asked: "Why does your cycle no longer include beans and lentils"? Because this was a slightly different cycle. But for now you can use cycle with beans and lentils and one fallow year, mentioned earlier. It may be better suited for plants that you know.
Almost all versions of crop rotation are better than no crop rotation...
Though... Let me think, maybe I could supply you with a more general rule, without names of any particular plant... I know. Legumes like clover, then root crops, then fruit crops, and then leaf crops.
You said: "I think if both are sealed that they will break similarly to the pottery", and you are right. There would need to be a small hole in the second one.
The thing is, alcohol, the substance that gives beer many of it's properties, transforms into steam in lower temperature than water. Thus at first alcohol boils, water boils only later. If some of said alcohol manage to transform back into liquid in the second pot instead of escaping, you should have stronger alcohol than normal beer in the second pot, and mostly water in the first. Ideally the first pot should be hot, but the second one cold. While germs create beer, strong alcohol is poison for most of germs. Not to mention that it's something that probably could be traded away as a weirdly strong drink, new trade good as long as recipe would be known only to a few of your people.
I'm glad about your work with compost, and it would be nice to add proper charcoal to that. My wisdom is not always complete, but 1/10 of charcoal and 9/10 of compost mixed with soil should be enough.
Some people can be insane, this is indeed unfortunate, but worth it in the case of washing and germs. Reduction in deaths should be well worth it. You can also call germs "microbes" if you prefer.
Your summary about the making of soap is mostly right. It would be best to test various types of ash and proportions. Lye water often looks almost like normal water, it's why it can be sometimes hard to be sure whether there is proper lye yet. This is why I suggested testing with feather, any sort of feather really, feathers are not needed at all for soap but it's nice to know whether you have a proper lye or not. When you boil lye with fat, remember to mix these until said mixture is rather thick. "Eventual result will clean away dirt and germs" when wet and together with water, not when dry and alone, but this is mostly right.
Plant oils could be used for soap instead of animal fat, but in practice I'm not sure that you have any source of plentiful plant oil. For example hemp oil, obtained by pressing hemp seeds if you know how to do that, should be probably tested for soapmaking.
I heard a small whisper from a fellow Voice that "for sewing up injuries, long hair is quite good, and it can be boiled without breaking down".
"And if what is promised is only riches, then it is only the promise that they will have more to give away". This custom is troublesome in some cases. I understand that fewer people steal or murder because of equality, but there is also much less motivation to do useful things. Wealth would be often better for motivating useful behavior than honor. There are many great uses of honor, but honor alone is very limiting.
Your Armed Forces could at first also guard roads and roadbuilding. A road is a piece of land which connects two or more places. Usually, a road has been made easy to travel on, easier than usual land, for example by removing trees and other things. Thus traders like to use roads in their travels. Carts, horses, and people could travel faster if people could build roads between villages and other important places. Gravel (very small stones) can be used for road surfaces, but common dirt is often better than nothing. As always, you can give people pretty things, like some small amount of gold, in exchange for building roads in places where you want these. 16–26 average human feet in road width should be enough. Bridges, structures of wood or stone, could be raised over streams and perhaps sometimes over smaller rivers.
You can create also small fortresses with watchtowers to even better guard the most dangerous parts of roads, bridges, or maybe places where two roads meet outside of a village. Watchtower is a tall structure built to create an elevated observation point so that you can watch nearby land; hills are the best for building watchtowers. Fortress is a strong building that would be hard to attack.
A flag is a piece of colored cloth with a special design that is put on a pole (tall stick) as a symbol. For example, a flag with color that you like visible over the watchtower of your fortresses would remind people that these places belong to you and your Armed Forces. I suggest a black flag with a red simplified eye painted on, to suggest to people that you watch over their lives, but this is your decision obviously, use whatever you like the most.
My story about a frog was indeed not too wise perhaps, but it was not designed to be literal. I'm not very interested in true, literal frogs. I wanted to say that you can slowly assume more power over warriors if you create and very slowly expand Armed Forces, composed of these loyal to you and believing in you. And while inequality of wealth cause some problems, benefits can be great.
It's also very important to have your Armed Forces under your direct authority, like your singers, and not under power of the First Chief. There is enough power under him, and not enough under you.
About the new metal, much more common than copper and tin but harder to make, about iron: do you or your people know about metallic ore that is, for now, impossible to melt? From swamps and streams, perhaps? You can melt that with charcoal and more fresh air.
There is also another matter, that may even kill some of your people during winter: your people probably use simple holes to remove smoke from inside, and this is a very bad solution. There is a much better one.
A chimney is a vertical (going up) channel or pipe, not a very wide one but instead tall, which removes highly unhealthy smoke from a cooking fire, heating fire or furnace, typically through the roof of a building. Part of such a structure rises above a roof. Unhealthy air rise through a chimney and is thus removed outside of the building. Taller chimneys are better. You can also use vertical channels to remove unhealthy air and provide fresh air underground, for example to mines - this is called ventilation. Chimneys are much better than a simple hole in the roof, or in the walls; for complicated reasons chimneys and other tall but not too wide ventilation tunnels create a weak force of wind, movement of air. A fireplace is a stone or brick structure used to hold fire. Fireplaces are most often used for heating but they can also be used for cooking. A fireplace should be connected to the chimney. Not only smoke would be removed much better, but also fire should be stronger. In general, the chimney channel can be 1/10th to 1/12th as large as the opening of the fireplace.
New construction material: concrete. You need cement for that. Cement is made from quicklime (heated limestone) and clay. Preferably burn ground-up limestone and clay together. Concrete is made out of cement, sand, very small rocks and water in varying proportions depending on the desired properties of finished concrete, testing as always should be useful. Fresh concrete can be poured like a dense liquid, but after a few days, concrete hardens into a rock. Use of saltwater and addition of ash may result in a much more durable concrete.
Better use of horses: a proper horse collar is oval rather than circular and it is by design not very flexible. It is a padded leather appliance that conforms well to the shape of the horse's body. It is constructed so that at all points of contact with the body of the horse it avoids the air passage. By protecting the airway of the horse it's possible for the animal to use its full force to pull a load, cart, chariot, or something else. Throat-girth harness is much less efficient than a proper horse collar because the harder a horse pulls, the more strongly it chokes off it's own breathing.
Another matter... Mysteries of the human body explained.
Blood is used by the body to transport many complicated things to all parts of the body, things needed to live and to defend against germs. These things are provided to the blood by breathing, eating and drinking water. Heart allows said blood to move. A human mind is in the brain, but without blood, the brain dies very fast, you cease to see and move almost instantly at least without magic, and thus person dies.
Thanks to lungs healthy air is useful for the blood, thanks to stomach and guts food is useful for the blood, and then liver and kidneys try to remove bad things and poisons from the blood - if liver is not in good shape, or poison is too bad, person can die even without germ disease. These mysteries are very simplified here, about details you could talk for days.
Healthy kidneys filter about a half cup of blood every minute, removing wastes and extra water to make urine. The urine flows from the kidneys to the bladder.
Arteries and veins are parts of the same circulatory system for the blood. Arteries may look empty after death because blood then goes mainly to veins, but if you cut artery of the living person, there will be a great deal of blood.
When I said "thanks to lungs healthy air is useful for the blood" this means that part of air known as oxygen is transported from air to blood in the lungs.
Veins are blood vessels that carry blood toward the heart, arteries are blood vessels that take blood away from the heart to all parts of the body. Most arteries carry oxygenated blood, most veins carry deoxygenated blood. Oxygenated blood is bright red, deoxygenated blood is darker, almost blackish-red.
Oxygen is also used to sustain fires, not only by living things. Without proper air, there is no fire.
Open sometimes bodies of your enemies, to learn more and test ideas.
The truth about non-magical and non-divine part of reality: the atomic theory.
1. All matter is formed of atoms. By "matter" I mean all non-magical, non-divine and not-spiritual things, from air to rocks.
2. Atoms are the smallest components of matter. This is not fully true, but it's decent enough simplification and true enough for most practical considerations.
3. Atoms of the same element, copper for example, or oxygen, are of the same type and mass.
4. Atoms that make chemical compounds are present in set proportions.
5. Chemical changes correspond to a reorganization of the atoms taking part in the chemical reaction. For example, in simpler words: "wood on fire" is rapid "chemical reaction" where atoms of oxygen, present in the air, combine with atoms of carbon, present in the wood, combining into carbon dioxide (chemical compound, also part of the air).
I think, my fellow Voices that whisper to me sometimes, that on the one hand we need to end this stupid war and improve food production and other production of the tribes; and on the other hand some fun for bloodthirsty warriors is needed, thus active defense against Chaussow.
"Good that you have given me these ways for the people to make the soil fertile themselves and without my presence, Black Cat. I mean to take a few years away from the people to more deeply examine the tidings of some of you voices. And now the people may be less inclined to return to their old ways of burning new fields and moving about. That will make it easier to restore order to them when I return.
"I do not believe the people farm any roots so much that they should fill whole fields. For now perhaps that will be the fallow year. Neither is clover farmed, but I will instruct my singers to promote the growing and gathering of it… or perhaps simply the growing of it and then the pasturing of some goats or such after harvestime? I will ordain the cycle that runs fallow, beans and lentils, wheat and barley as the place from which to start, in any case. Once we have the sense of it: clover.
"So as fire tempers beer -- or perhaps anything -- different substances are turned to steam in different orders. And since 'alcohol' turns always before water, it can be collected as its vapors return to a running state. And since the second pot is lower than the first, these runnings from vapors will drain into it. Is that right? This sounds like a strong secret. I might only allow it to the Burgeck and Tash tribes -- though the second not for some winters still -- as they are the only tribes whose people never move their marriages outside the Nine Nations.
"The compost piles only began in the winter. They will reach their year when the ground softens in spring. The people's work in charring of coals has not been very productive. So much wood will be needed to make one tenth part of the compost that will be collected by that time. It will be applied to what fields it can cover before the spring sowing.
"The poor health of people is, as you say, unfortunate. Those who overly devote themselves to ceremony and ritual are often well regarded and will set the mark for others to note.
"Ash is plentiful here and now. I may tarry in the burnlands to teach the making and use of 'lye' and 'soap.' I do not think that squeezing out the oils of wild seeds will be very fruitful. But it is good to know that other oils may be used. Tallow already has many uses. And besides that, the people will want to add scented oils, I have no doubt. It's something they do whenever they remember or rediscover such things.
"The Sleomjash do, at times, binds skins together with horsehair. Adding the boiling of needles and hairs when already rags must be boiled to press against the wound should make little difference in the difficulty of these practices.
"I do like the idea of better ways between the villages and, I suppose, from the villages to certain outlying places. I will have trees and bushes cleared from sighted paths. But if the path is not one trod by feet every day, how will grasses and greater be prevented from springing up between the small stones and breaking the path apart? There are paths of baked tile in and around my great house. But surely making all the paths between villages of such would be too much, no? And so wide as well? I do not know why they should be more than eight foot-lengths across. Do you mean for two wagons to be able to pass at any point in the length of the path? And still, why exceed sixteen of your foot-lengths?
"How can bridges be built of stone? And how can any sort of bridge cross even the very smallest river?
"There are already shelters on the paths between villages. So that is where your strong houses and high places should go, I think. But if people are not passing by, there is no need for warriors to be present. And if people are passing by, then the warriors who travel with them can protect the strong house and keep watch from the high place.
"The people will know what is mine so long as I am present to remind them. And if they forget what is mine, why will not they not forget that the flag is mine? But this colored cloth on a pole will be visible from far away. It will let others who are not of the people know what is what, I think. Cloth fades in the sun, though, so only the hardiest or most readily available dyes may be used.
"I still have more questions about the keeping of warriors. If they are not a whole tribe raised up over the others, then how are they to be selected? Again, the singers seek me because they love song more than their own selves. That is what is needed to draw them away from their families. If I go out and select this and that warrior from among the chosen, they will still be of their families. If I ask them to swear oaths to me, what can I offer them? Trifles are of little use beyond the honor of having them and of giving them away.
"Should I seek out the greedy? The other people will know their greed if I stoke it, or if they do not hide it. They will know it and hate them for it. That way leads to dischord.
"And anyway, what need is there for this? If I tell the people to make 'roads' and 'fortresses' and 'watchtowers' they will do so. If they do so a little more swiftly for the promise of some portion of my hoard, well, I suppose that is well. It will come back in tribute, nonetheless.
"But how to keep warriors? And why? I am stronger than any of them. And all of them would answer if I called for a raid or even for another war. They would not falter for their not being bound to me as my singers are.
"'It is important' you say. Buy why?
"There is a black metal that tarnishes red and does not melt in wood fire. It must be worked with hammers while hot. But it is not common. It is very rare and the people have not seen it in their memory, but I have some in my hoard. I believe it has only come to the people by trade and is precious to outsiders, too.
"A fireplace sounds like an oven. How is the tower of the chimney built over the oven of the fireplace without falling down into it? Perhaps the people will be able to work it out. I will have one built for show. Or are cement and concrete the solutions? Or are those meant for the roads? Or are you offering general advice, now? We will find the uses of concrete, I am sure.
"It is known that a harness for horse or ass must be carefully fit so that it does not ride up and interfere with breathing. No properly harnessed horse should encounter that issue. I will have your 'collar' tested in any case, Black Cat.
"And what heats the blood, then? What happens to the blood that leaves the heart and travels out the arteries? What makes the new blood for the viens? And what is the purpose of that which sits behind and underneath the stomach, and that which is only found beneath the bladders of men, or alongside the wombs of women? Thank you for these secrets of blood and fire, but I would know more.
I greet you, Undying One, and thank you for your listening ear!
When it comes to arsenic bronze, then first worth saying that, there is likely already a very small amount of what is called arsenic in your copper, smaller than a hundred part of it.
There is also other types of stones, ores and crystals that have a higher concentration of Arsenic, than copper. I am unsure if I can exactly describe how they look like, though I know that one of these looks likes red crystal.
Then the point of making arsenic bronze, would be to get a decent mix of copper and arsenic, but I am not much of a smith, so I do not think that I can explain that properly. Sorry about the lack of aid on the subject.
When I talked about a focus on training, then I meant to make sure, that these warriors dedicated their life to the art of warfare, not getting distracted by such things as farming or other types of work.
When it comes to what I see training of warriors being, then I see it as something done on two different levels, the first level is as individuals and the second level is as a group.
At the individual level one part of training is about mastering one's own body by attempting to increase its strength, endurance and agility. The second part of training is getting skilled in the use of the equipment and weaponry that belongs to that warrior to such a level that some may say that it becomes a part of their body.
At the group level training is about ensuring that warriors are used to fighting as a part of a group, that they can maintain a combat formation and organize many different groups of warriors to act as one at the same time.
Something that lies between these two levels is leadership, since it is both something at an individual level about having the intellect and understanding required to choose the correct tactic or strategy against the enemy, while being something that must be practiced at group level.
When we talk about the training of warriors, then I wonder how does the Nine Nations do war?
I know that they make use of chariots, bows, shields, axes, spears, knives and armor made of either bronze or hides, leather and wood, but how are these things used in battle? Are there weapons that the Nine Nations use, that I have not mentioned? Does the Nine Nations simply charge their enemies or how does they do battle as groups?
I will tell you some of my thoughts about the art of war and the different tactics, though some of this you might already do or have heard, or it might simply not fit the Nine Nations.
The first point worth mentioning is that one can categorize warriors out from their equipment, like archers or charioteers. This point is of course rather obvious, but it serves as the basic of a lot of strategies and tactics.
I assume, that one can categorize the current warriors of the Nine Nations in the following four categories, charioteers, who fight on a chariot, heavy infantry, who are heavily armed and armored, light infantry, who is not, and archers, who fights with bow and arrow.
There is likely some problems with these categories, since it might be that most warriors currently all can fight with a bow and arrow, so most warriors can shift between fighting as archers and as infantry. The difference between what is called heavy infantry and light infantry will likely change, but right now I would put the divide between those wearing bronze armor and those who does not.
A new type of warriors, that one day will start existing is what is called cavalry. Cavalry is when warriors fight mounted on an animal. An animal which might one day be used in such way is the horse. It might still be too small to carry a full-grown warrior, but as you told us, you have seen horses grown from small being into the size they have today, big enough to pull chariots. One day they will become large enough to ride, perhaps a small and light person could do so already, but I do not know the size of your horses.
I am, as I said before, unsure how the Nine Nations do battle and what kind of combat formations they use, but I will explain a rather simple one for you, that of the shield wall. The combat formation of a shield wall can be done in quite a few different ways and depends a lot on the quality and size of the shields, that your warriors use, but is it simply that your warriors make a wall of shields on the battlefield by standing in line with their shields. I am unsure of the size of the shields your warriors use, but I guess that they are not that big, so a version that might do is to have the first line of warriors go down on their knees and keep their shields at the ground, then a second line of warriors would put their shields above the first line's shield. Lastly, a third line of warriors would put their shields at the top of this shield wall, and that would likely construct a wall of shields high enough to protect your warriors. There would likely still be small holes in such a wall, but this is where you own warriors is meant to stab anyone getting close.
Such a shield wall, as I have described is defensive in nature and is not that useful, when you are on the offensive, but it can be moved in formation, it protects to a degree against arrows and ensures that your warriors fight in formation. There exist more moveable versions of a shield wall, but that would likely require shield of a larger size.
You seem to have gotten a decent understanding of city walls, though it might be worth mention how difficult attacking walled cities can be. Stonewalled cities tend to be such a difficult target, that most times the warleader of a hostile army would have to put the city under siege for a period time first, where he will attempt to blockade any access to the city. Then there is two ways a warleader might go from here, either he will attempt to starve the city into surrender, or he might spend the time preparing the right equipment needed to assault such a stonewalled city.
Such siege equipment can consist of different things with the simple things being wooden ladders used to climb the walls or a battering ram, which is in its basic form a wooden log given handles, that then is used to batter down the gates, there is in the wall. A more complex example of siege equipment would be what is called a siege tower. A siege tower is basically a wooden building on wheels high enough to reach up to the walls.
There is two another points worth mentioning is, first, that trying to starve a city into surrender can take a lot of time and can in fact turn into of a question of whom runs out of food first. The war against the Forest Folk showed a good example of hard it can be to feed an army. The second point worth mentioning is quite logical and is that one ought to offer better terms to a city, than what would happen to it, if one took it with force.
[X] [Cacophony] Mortenkam
[X] [Followup] Swiftly reach the places where unburned Forest People are and attack them
[X] [Loot] Let the chosen take what is there
[X] [Scavengers] Send word to the Chaussow that all the warriors of the Nine Nations are here and they should leave
I am open, if anybody have any suggestions about what I have written.
About my vote, I was a bit unsure, but I felt that it will best to finish off the forest folk, now when we got them on the back foot.
"It sounds as though many different stones should be tested in combination with copper to find tin or arsenic, or to find anything else which might improve copper. Is this the talk of atoms, to speak of the ideal which is present to some degree rather than the mishmash whole which is all what can be perceived? I think I could do to hear more of 'red crystals' and less of 'tin' and 'arsenic.' But thank you, voice which has not given their name, no less.
"How can one dedicate their life to war? War is so infrequent. And even the chosen tire of bloodshed in time. To be forever at war would wear away the courage of all but the most valorous. And while that valor is of great worth, surely it is wasteful to wear away all the others. This is like dragging your axehead through the sand as you walk. Some are so hard that they wear very little, but most would be blunted.
"Warriors' bodies grow strong by work, by carrying water and chopping wood, by trekking through wilds in hunt for game or lost cattle, and by wrestling and playing at fighting among themselves. Should there be warriors who never plow or throw clay or craft or hunt but only wrestle and playfight at all times? Practice clearly benefits the bow. Should one who is chosen of the warriors leave behind the work they once did and practice bow for all their days?
"Aged warriors will say at times, 'So long have I known this axe. This axe is my hand.' I do not know how that comes to be. How can all warriors be made such?
"How does it merit for warriors to swing as one or raise shields as one when the enemies they face do not act as one? I see, at least, no special cost to loose arrows as one. But what does it benefit?
"Most fighting occurs in raids. Warriors sneak in on foot, fight with what warriors they find, grab what they can, and leave. Raiders often use only the axe, so that they are most free to carry what they take. But at times a raidleader will make all their warriors come in with spear and shield with the plan to push down and drive off a whole village, then loot with some leisure. Only the Sleomjash and Tash raid from chariot. I believe they sweep in, drive their horses through the village or shoot arrows from their chariots as they circle their goal, and when they feel that have done that enough they halt their horses, leave their chariots, and proceed with axe and free hand like other raiders. Many of our neighbors have become wise to this, and so put out ditches or other obstacles to circling or entering chariots. But when they do raid, it is as if every two warriors brought a wagon, they can bring back a lot of loot.
"In battle one warparty finds another and decides how to set on them. They may use axe and shield or spear and shield. Usually there is some mixture, but there are warleaders who demand their warriors conform. Generally, the axe is better for charging, the spear is better for receiving a charge. But the difference is not great. If chariot are available they may circle and loose arrows or they may run down warriors afoot.
"Slings and clubs see use, too. But the sling is not as good as a bow, if the archer is well practiced. Most of the time a club is worse than a stone axe, even. There have been some very large men among the chosen who fixed themselves stone-headed clubs of unusual size. These were fearsome to their enemies and no parry or shield or armor could stand against them. Each pass of such a weapon requires much breath though and, from what I heard, when they fell it was often mid-swing.
"Young people regularly clamber atop horses. Young people, fisher people anyway, regularly clamber onto everything, so horses should be no different. But they are different and special because nearly every child, it seems, dreams of sitting up there with reins in their hands and driving the horse from its own back. Some stand while attempting it.
"So these are some of the ways that young people die. Even when the horse does not throw them off to break their neck, they slide off one side or the other, sometimes to be trampled. I think that something more than larger horses will be necessary before warriors atop horses are terribly effective. But that, too, is needed. Few horses could carry more than an unarmored youth with a spear, and a slight youth at that.
"Warriors already hold up their shields when they charge into arrows. Larger shields are much more difficult to charge with. And that slowness would mean taking more arrows, not fewer, and possibly faltering sooner as well. Always there is some warrior who has made an extra large shield of hide that they've shaved down to be thin enough to run with quite well. Sometimes they tan it differently. Sometimes it has been painted with pastes for extra strength. And it seems that it always turns out to be inadequate protection. Sometimes the warrior even lives long enough to learn that, and to thereafter take to more regular shields. One day, though, I think one of them will get it right. In the meantime, how can I make larger shields that are still light enough to carry across the field of battle?
"Ah. I think I better understand walls, then. And, really, they only need to hold off invaders for the summer in any event. Still I do not think I fully understand them and would like to correct that."
many voices tried to explain that sometimes moderate greed is good! traders would be more motivated to travel and trade if they could retain more things and not share equally. there would be inequality but production of food and trade and many other stuff could increase MUCH FASTER! reward with wealth are to many better than honor even when nobody wants to admit that because of customs. so you should have more metal for warriors and stuff even though more people would try to steal and some would have more than others
[X] [Cacophony] devilgirl666
[X] [Followup] Swiftly reach the places where unburned Forest People are and attack them
[X] [Loot] Divide the loot among families of warriors and let the families work it out themselves
[X] [Scavengers] Send word to the Chaussow that all the warriors of the Nine Nations are here and they should leave
"Huh. Thank you, voice who has not given their name. I do see, I suppose, how a trader who loves riches more than they love themselves would bring back the greatest amount of trade. But any who love riches more than they love themselves would have trouble living among the people of the Nine Nations or any of the tribes around here.
"I am brought back to the plan of raising one tribe above the others, so that they can seek wealth in so many fashions. But I believe there is something I am still missing about this."
Great Undying One, allow me to briefly explain the inner workings of fire, as I believe it will be helpful to you. You should already know that fires burn out given a lack of fuel to consume. However, what you might not know is that fires must also consume air to burn, much like fuel, much like all living things require air to breathe. Fire is not truly living, but in this case the analogy works well enough for our purposes; fires inhale air and exhale smoke. Hence, if you use a closed pot which does not allow air to enter, any fires that sprout inside the pot will quickly starve and suffocate, and the wood will char but not burn, thus giving you charcoal. Alternatively, you can cover the wood you wish to turn into charcoal completely in soil and straw so that air cannot reach it. You should be able to easily test this for yourself.
The same principle may be reversed to produce fires of great heat and intensity, by supplying them with great quantities of air; think of how a man who exerts themselves in physical activity must breathe much more heavily for a time; the principle is similar. The basic idea is to set a fire in an enclosed structure of stone, brick, or iron to corral it, and use a pump to help deliver air into the structure. In this way, you will produce hotter fires than would otherwise be possible, particularly if you use charcoal as fuel for the fire, rather than unburnt wood. This is important to iron making, as very hot temperatures are required for the making of iron.
"I know that fires aren't living things, voice: there are no spirits of fire. And the people know of leather bellows, too, as those are necessary for melting copper in any meaningful amount. It seems, now, like it should be possible to change other things by heat without burning them, in the same manner that coals are charred. What is meat cooked in clay like? Or dough?
"And thank you, named voice, for suggesting that the wood to be charred is simply covered in dirt and straw. This will be tried as well."
"No, see. The point was the baker, not the bread. Although next time perhaps I'll recover the dough, bake it, and force the next to… No, no. Next thing you know they'll be eating each other. Can't have that again. Ugh. If there's one thing worse than oath-breakers it's cannibals. You can never tell which liver is going to be haunted until it's too late and someone's spirit-joined."
Code:
B R E A K
I'd make some rolls here, but I want to get this out today so I'm just going to choose the results of the actions you've chosen: smash, honor, wisdom.
"It is so good to have returned and found that none of my hoard has suffered theft in my absence. My singers are watchful, it is true. But they are only people, liable to fail at catching at times and at integrity at other times.
"The very evening that I last consulted you voices, I had all the loot and slaves taken piled up for the chosen warriors to take from. And when they had taken it all, I ordered a pair of charioteers to leave the next morning to tell the Chaussow off. And in that same morning I led the rest of the warriors of the people deeper into the woodlands.
"What followed was not an easy harvest. Vengeful spirits and unexpected fires continued to vex the warriors, killing or injuring some handful. And the Forest People who remained were tired and disorderly and given to flight. But we were still fighting in their own forest, and for that reason some fought with alarming ferocity. The spirits of their dead were also less powerful than they had been. I can't say why that was, but it may be that some aspect of the power was tied to the intact forest.
"The people of the Nine Nations flattened four or five of what pass for villages of the Forest People. Where the Forest People remained in their treetop shelters, we cut down those trees. Where they did not, young warriors climbed up to lower down loot undamaged. And when the warriors began to tire of fighting and the warleaders of the people were certain the Forest People had been properly put to flight, all the loot and newly taken slaves were gathered in together.
"So the slaves taken from the people of the Nine Nations were sorted out and the newly acquired loot and slaves were brought together. And then, before the first of those who found glory had claimed their pick, one of the chosen warriors of Gawdtha tribe stepped up to the pile. There were gasps. But the people restrained themselves or were restrained. Some, I think, thought he had mistaken matters and that, as one who might be the greatest of the chosen, he would get first pick again. But instead he took the fine horn and strange bow of the Forest People that he had picked from the previous loot pile and set them on the new pile. And all the people lauded him. After him came another of the chosen to do the same, and another, until there was a line of all of them and the cheering went on and on.
"The division of loot was delayed while the warriors celebrated the honor of the chosen who had returned their loot and new slaves. And, while it's always nice to see the people come together because it means it's less likely they'll be at each other's throats any time soon, everything after that took much more time than it needed to.
"The warriors were still dividing the loot and congratulating each other when the chariots sent to speak with Chaussow came up the path that had been cleared for chariots through the woods. The drivers had brought with them two of the Chaussow, one older warrior and one youth, and had left their archers behind with the outsiders. The Chaussow had wanted to see what had become of the Forest People.
"The celebratory mood of the people of the Nine Nations extended to their reception of the outsiders, who were fed and danced with and otherwise welcomed as beloved guests. They left with gifts, with freed people of their tribe who had been slaves to the Forest People and, I hope, a good understanding of just how bad of an idea it would be for them to raid the Nine Nations. And good will. That helps.
"Now, oh voices, I would take some time to more deeply explore one of the ideas you have given me. I mean to devote a few years to one thing or another, the minimum required to properly understand any meaningful thing.
"I am interested in the ways of cities and city people. Va of Lan has passed. He died clutching a golden figure of a seated woman, which his marriage gave to me as tribute. It is the only gold the people of the Nine Nations have held in a long time. Nonetheless, there are others of Lan and other traders besides who can direct me to where a city can be found, or who could accompany me if I so choose. More likely I will bring warriors, if anyone.
"Honey would be of great use to the people and to me. I want fewer wounded to die, as such deaths are usually a waste. The sickend, too. And if the people are to trade with far off places they will need goods that keep, which honey and honey-soaked goods do. I can go into the hills with what you have told me of the keeping of bees and perfect the craft.
"'Roads' and 'fortresses' and 'watchtowers' are all good things for there to be between the villages. I can go out and develop the means by which roads are made, fortresses build, and watchtowers raised. I can teach the people, too, so that they can continue the project when I return to my great home.
"The ways of body are indeed worthy of study. I can devote myself to these studies, working with corpses as is safe for me while it might not be for others. Surely the ways of blood are the same in dogs as in people. And if I need to work with live people, well, some will be found suitable.
"Finally, I can perfect the extraction of alcohol from beer.
"Which project shall I undertake?"
[ ] [Sabbatical] Go see what this 'city' nonsense is all about
[ ] [Sabbatical] Bees?
[ ] [Sabbatical] Construct more pylons roads, build more roads
[ ] [Sabbatical] Prep for surgery, stat!
[ ] [Sabbatical] It's five o'clock somewhere; make liquor
[ ] [Sabbatical] Write in
"In whatever case, I can travel or work with the minimum necessary to the task or take many more with me. In the case that I take only the minimum, only my own absence will be impactful. However, what I learn and what I bring back will also be more limited.
"In the case that I bring more than the minimum, then the chosen warriors I bring with me to 'see' a city will not be available to work their crafts, to sow or harvest, or to protect their tribe. The shepherds and people who accompany me into the hills to divine the secrets of the hive will probably not be much missed, but perhaps there will be some event for which it had been better they'd stayed behind. I will be taking many who can labor into the places between the villages to make roads and such. And they will be missed some, but will be able to travel home when it is most important that they do so. I could take many, many more and make greater progress at the cost of… well some of just about everything, I think. Investigating the flesh, as well, will be much more fruitful with the assistance of the wisest of each tribe, and with the 'assistance' of their most foolish as well. And finally, the more smiths I call to me, the fewer smiths will be available to work copper for the people; potters, too, but their wheels are more plentiful than smithys are."
"What manner of workforce should assist me in my task?"
[ ] [Staffing] Minimum (solo, in most cases)
[ ] [Staffing] Get some people, but not too many
[ ] [Staffing] Many. Get many people. All that can be spared. Maybe more.
[ ] [Staffing] Write in
"Finally, while I am unavailable, who should answer those questions which would otherwise fall to me, should any arise?"
[ ] [Steward] First Chief Haronno
[ ] [Steward] Vote by tribal chieftains
[ ] [Steward] Council of three eldars from each tribe
[ ] [Steward] Appoint the singer best suited to the job
[ ] [Steward] Write in
Code:
Voting will close 2019-03-17 at 1800 GMT
Code:
The players created a Great Haunted Forest
The magic-fueled, spirit-driven forest fire killed a lot of people and even more creatures. It also messed with existing Forest People magics in objects and places meant to empower the spirits of their own dead and to make it easier to control other spirits within their forests. So now angry spirits are making their way from the underworld into the company of many others of their kind. They're stronger than they should be. And they're very much aligned with the forest they died in.
The Forest People that remained might have had a shot at quelling this disturbance. Instead they were very busy staying alive or failing to do so. Also leaving.
The shadowy and deadly woods that will grow in that place will be filled with twisted trees and shrubs and strange and vile creatures. These won't be anything Bianca or her people can permanently deal with at any time before the industrialization of magic. It's just going to grow in power faster than their ability to keep it in check will. Not that that takes much in the way of growth.
The Great Haunted Forest will expand, slowly, in all directions. Its slow, slow march will be inexorable and will last for centuries. Eventually it will reach an equilibrium with other spiritual forces though, over decades, its borders with ebb and flow as the precise loci of that equilibrium shift.
Congratulations. You've made your first mark on the world. May happenstance have mercy on your souls.
Unrelated to the Great Haunted Forest, each of the candidates offered for First Chief came with a crisis. And if y'all'd voted in a write in I'd have come up with one for them, too.
By supporting Harronno you prevented a crisis of leadership and got to explore what war is like for the Nine Nations. I planned both for losses and more trouble with the Forest People in the future or for victory and an emboldened and more adventurous people. I did not plan on y'all suggesting or voting to burn the forest down. But that worked out. And now that y'all chose to drive off this community of Forest People, there's just too much narrative weight to leave it be.
And that's a good thing, from a certain point of view.
No. By the time the resources are gathered to do so -- remember Bianca spent most of a year preparing -- the Great Haunted Forest will be in such a state than any burning boar spirits, thirst spirits, or smith spirits will just get consumed by the metabiome. And any mortal who goes very far in there, at that point, will get consumed by the normal biome in the case where the metabiome doesn't get to them first.
No. Word travels faster than Bianca and the her wrecking crew do. By the time the rowdy crowd gets to another woodland belonging to the Forest People, the locals will have been informed. They'll have caught wise to the tricks used this time. And, worse comes to worst, if another forest filled with Forest People gets burned to the ground, the spirits of their dead will have changed their practices and priorities in order to prevent the failure ending up in this particular shape ever again.
Not to say another Greater Haunted Forest can't happen. But it'll need to be the result of a different catastrophe.
first bees then alcohol to numb the pain (from bees) then surgery with sterilized tools then either cities or roads depending on whether you believe all roads lead to Rome or Rome leads to all roads
[X] [Staffing] Get some people, but not too many
aditional perspectives may prove useful and many hands make light work
[X] [Steward] Appoint the singer best suited to the job
want to try making singers into bureaucrat/priests
Greetings Undying, currently you may refer to me as weight of what is owed, though I may decide upon a more appropriate name at a later date. For now I wish to comment upon the nature of both the written word and cities. While my fellow voices have portrayed both as inevitable monoliths of civilization there is an exception for every rule and just because something is inevitable doesn't mean it is currently appropriate. Many cultures will and have kept written records but we also know of cases in which some facets of history have been the exclusive domain of oral tradition. By merely stating that earthly matters or those concerning the immutable past should be written down while those concerning sacred edicts or matters of the moldable present are to be spoken and kept alive by living tongues until such time as holy becomes mundane or present becomes past one can ensure that your peoples rich traditions are upheld and their undying ruler still holds sway over what is remembered. Now that I am thinking on it if this idea is utilized it may be appropriate to have some holy celebration or festival in which all things that people wish to have recorded are judged by yourself, or the wisest and most trusted nearby singer for those matters either too distant or trivial for your perusal.
Note these are merely examples of potential paths of logic you could use to separate written and spoken language within your culture
As for the matter of cities and the softness you believe they breed another solution from elsewhen presents itself. Make it mandatory that once a member of the tribes has reached adulthood they are to be trained in the art of war or the making of things which are used for war for two or some other fixed number of years at which point the warrior shall make the decision to devote himself to war or the making of wars tools for the rest of his years or to some other craft. In this way one can insure that all your people are able to fight while those most capable of truly waging war act as loyal sheepdogs… you do have dogs trained in the guarding of sheep flocks from predators right?
I believe you also had questions regarding how to make a written language when some of your people are physically incapable of speaking their fellow tribes' language. Allow me to explain…when a child is born of any people do they have some innate affinity for their native tongue while all foreign tongues require great effort? The answer is no, in fact children possess the ability to understand all languages…at least as a child does. Of course much like a muscle that goes too long without being used may atrophy or grow rigid an ear that does not need to recognize sounds it is not exposed to will find it difficult to distinguish these sounds in the future. For this reason I would suggest encouraging all families born of the union of two tribes to utilize both languages within their household for this too is a way that the mind can be strengthened.
While on the subject of children I find it important to state that a child's mind is like wet clay in that it is easily molded or added to when new information presents itself and like clay as it ages it becomes more and more difficult to mold until it becomes more likely to break rather than be reshaped. For this reason elders and other learned should take time to teach any child who wishes to learn so that your people grow stronger in mind and body both. Later this can be formalized into some profession or another dedicated solely to the teaching of those who are not yet adults but for now I believe this will suffice.
One last point I would like to make is that while others have made the case for greed as a motivator I feel that honor will suffice as long as the definition of honor is expanded upon. It is already known that warriors, singers, and elders are to be respected but a case can and must be made that the saving of a life or the act of training ones disciples is honorable, for thus you insure that another's legend can continue or be enriched much as the Pact between your nine tribes ensures your collective bounty.
Tangent: you should feel free to change the names of any term we give you to suit your own needs and the needs of your people, for example if the term germ does not make sense in your context then use something like Least One, for these are the least of things that can said to be alive, or some other term
Tangent: While you have told us of the Forest People and the blessings they received from their creator god you have yet to state what blessing and divine heritage your people possess. Perhaps the reason some tribes cannot speak the others language because the nine tribes contain the creations of multiple gods
originally came on here to ramble about domestication instead decided to try my hand at crafting culture. took a smattering of ideas from Plato who believed writing ideas down killed them, the Hebrew Torah and Haftorah which was once maintained exclusively by word of mouth (considering adding more references to the torah by suggesting parts of saced text be unrecorded and memorized or borrowing from exalted of all things by having sacred edicts be in ink dyed in a color associated with our rule), along with modern Jerusalem's practice of mandatory temporary enlistment of all able bodied adults, and modern understanding of childhood neuroplasticity along with the beginnings of a school system which the tribes currently aren't ready for(I recall the QM getting stressed from un-cited references we voices made so tell me if this helps LoserThree). also if we are going to be dissecting corpses to figure out how they tick determining what if any internal differences their are between the tribes and Forest People internally is probably a good idea but this post has gone on long enough (sorry for not casting a vote need discussion first and wanted to get this out of the way)
There are a number of devices that make the riding of horses safer and easier. There is the saddle, which is a seat made out of wood and leather, shaped to fit over the back of the horse where a rider is to sit, allowing the rider to sit more securely on their mount. There are stirrups, which are rings hanging from straps from that the rider places their feet through, to make it easier to get on and off a horse, and make them harder to dislodge. Both of these are attached to the body of the horse by a girth, which loops under the belly of the horse and is used to securely fasten the saddle and stirrups.
Though it takes some degree of skill, stirrups also allow a rider to control the movement of a horse with their feet alone, freeing both their hands for the use of a bow. As your horses are still too slight to carry much in the way of weight, the best use of them for now would be to have them carry riders armed with bows or throwing spears.
The other voice speaking about drafting every child to be soldiers is speaking nonsense! Or rather, the raising of all children to be warriors would strain your agricultural output.
Really, only by raising agricultural output would it be possible to spend enormous amount of resources educating every child to be a soldier, should you will it or need it. All the other voices speaking of building professional soldiery are also speaking nonsense for the same reason!
Yes, in time, professional armies will be needed and that you will need to learn how to keep their loyalty, how to select them, and so forth, but not now, perhaps many generations into the future.
But whose enemies do you face have full time warriors dedicated to only learning how to kill their enemies and be ready to fight at all time? I see none nearby.
[X] [Sabbatical] Construct more pylons roads, build more roads
[X] [Staffing] Get some people, but not too many
There are a number of devices that make the riding of horses safer and easier. There is the saddle, which is a seat made out of wood and leather, shaped to fit over the back of the horse where a rider is to sit, allowing the rider to sit more securely on their mount. There are stirrups, which are rings hanging from straps from that the rider places their feet through, to make it easier to get on and off a horse, and make them harder to dislodge. Both of these are attached to the body of the horse by a girth, which loops under the belly of the horse and is used to securely fasten the saddle and stirrups.
Though it takes some degree of skill, stirrups also allow a rider to control the movement of a horse with their feet alone, freeing both their hands for the use of a bow. As your horses are still too slight to carry much in the way of weight, the best use of them for now would be to have them carry riders armed with bows or throwing spears.
If the horses are not big or strong enough to carry an adult rider, then it is pointless to try to learn how to ride a horse. Rather, you must breed bigger horses, which will take generations until they are strong enough to carry a warrior. To work on technologies for riding a horse is premature!
Clarified some points I hadn't made clear, for the record Israel doesn't draft children but trains all those over 18 for 3 years at which point some among them will choose to be soldiers full time and those who do not choose to do so have at least a basic familiarity with military service so in times of need the armies ranks can swiftly inflate without a significant dip in the competence of soldiers(a citizen is no longer in the reserve past the age of 40 though we have no idea what old age means to these people). While not a problem for the tribes currently it may become needed once cities and the enhanced specialization of careers they bring with them become a thing. further critiques are welcome and shall be incorporated into my cacophony post to the best of my abilities
I sheep, congratulate you on your good fortune I undying one.
In regards to the remarks of my fellow voices:
The whole of the people can be dedicated to honourable pursuits of war, song and art, and the farm's output need not suffer.
Indeed the purpose of slaves is to perform tasks so that others are relieved from performing them.
So long as you have enough slaves, you need not worry about constraints in how the nine may change and develop.
Indeed there existed a people in a distant realm whose entire population took the callings of priests and warriors.
They made Slaves and tributaries of every man and woman not of their tribe, food and drink came to them without end.
They congregated upon a great temple city built upon a lake, a massive monolith to their glory.
They sacrificed entire tribes upon the altars of bloodthirsty gods, so much so that rivers of blood would flow down from the temple tops.
They celebrated with song and dance and made wondrous crafts, they were famed for their honour and power, and never suffered a lack of food.
The point is o great undying one, is that there are many means of achieving one's ends, each with certain benefits and detriments but all valid.
Thus the means sole constraint should be your desire, for thoust art the pretender god of the nine.
[X] [Sabbatical] Construct more pylons roads, build more roads
[X] [Staffing] Get some people, but not too many
[X] [Steward] Appoint the singer best suited to the job
[X] [Cacophony] liberty90
This is Black Cat, welcome again, Great Undying One.
If you decide to see cities... Keep in mind that these are still young and small cities, far from perfection. They may not even know some of the wisdom that I shared with you, not yet. For example, these cities may not yet know about the crop rotation and black soil, and lie around great fertile rivers instead. No reason to share such secrets with them! No reason for them to be stronger even sooner. These cities are still like children. Keep this in your mind.
Despite this, I know that at least one of these cities may be ruled by demi-god who can defeat 1000 warriors, alone. Be vary. Such a creature probably could capture you. Not all cities are ruled by the mortal kings. So it's probably safer to pretend that you are traders of some sort. At least this time, until you could know much more.
Cities are like children now, but will grow into adults. They shall discover all of my wisdom, and more, with time. If not rapidly and though magic, then slowly, with entirely mundane repeatedly-testing-and-seeing-what-works-and-what-not.
About recent matters and questions...
Clover is used for feeding animals, indeed.
Bees like to be around many flowers and in fact help flowers, remember.
It's much better to compost waste during summer, not winter. In this one case, some of the germs are your friend, and waste must rot properly. Germs like warm places, though not too warm. Like most living things, I suppose.
Use 1/20 or even 1/30 of charcoal if there is not enough. Charcoal remains in the soil for a long time. On the other hand, new compost must be added much more often.
About alcohol, yes. But why not have your singers as the only producers of stronger alcohol? Give away strong alcohol only for gold and other wealth and see wealth returning to you without any tribute, with people happy! Keep in mind that strong alcohol can be very unhealthy when consumed often. Especially pregnant women and children shouldn't drink that thing at all. Sadly what is bad for germs is often also bad for the human liver and body: strong alcohol should be used as a drink only by adults in moderation, and soap is only for washing and shouldn't be eaten at all. Sadly both humans and germs are living creatures.
By the way, it's good to wash clothes with soap and water from time to time. At least these clothes that touch body directly, not other clothes. As always, people should be reasonable and remember whether there is enough soap for that, because handwashing is obviously more important, and handwashing before touching wounds doubly so.
"Squeezing out the oils of wild seeds", you said... There is no farming of hemp? I mean, you cannot eat that, but it's a pretty useful plant for production of many things, clothes, oils, and medicines... Well, maybe farm some hemp if there will be more than enough food and food crops.
"But if people are not passing by, there is no need for warriors to be present"? No, there is a strong need for a few permanent warriors of the Army in the fortress! You cannot allow enemies to occupy fortresses without a fight, fortresses designed to be hard to attack after all! And you cannot at all times know when all traders and other people will travel. Besides, if there is an attack, fortress would force some of enemies to divide their forces or stop until strong door and wall is destroyed, or one of your warriors could escape to warn villages and rest of the Army about danger. You can also use signal fires for that: if there is a danger, light a small fire on the watchtower during night, or raise an additional bloody red flag during day. People should see that from some distance.
You are stronger than warriors, but you cannot be in 5 different places at the same time. And now you want to leave for a few months or maybe even years! It's thus obvious that your Armed Forces are needed.
"And even the chosen tire of bloodshed in time", true, but guarding watchtowers, fortresses, training for war and fighting against theft of cattle is not that tiring as true war. Army would be used to support your tribes during true wars, of course, but when there is a true war to support.
After some warriors of the Army, or rather let's call them "soldiers" as serving the Armed Forces would be their main work, would grow too old or ill, they should receive even more gifts, and be allowed normal life. Supply them also with food until they die from their disease or age, to show that they once served well. Allow this after 20 or 30 years of service.
In all fortresses there should be warleader called for example "officer". A few fortresses should be controlled by the "first officer" when you are not around, to be sure that fortresses guard land properly. Officers and First Officers should also have Lieutenants, people who could lead for a short while in the case of sudden death of their Officer. Even bigger groups of the Armed Forces should be lead by "Legate" when you are not around. Feel free to change these names.
Motivation with some greed is very, very useful. There would be more discord and theft, but this is well worth that downside. There is no need to use only greed of course, honor and oaths remain useful in their own ways.
Your Singers should observe whether the Armed Forces do what they should. There is, in fact, a special kind of singer called the Inquisitor. Your Inquisitor, or a few Inquisitors, could either travel and pretend to be normal singers, or travel with a few soldiers under his control. Their main duty is not to sing, though people may sometimes believe so, but to investigate any disappearances of other true singers when you are not around.
Keep in mind, you need to improve farming to produce enough food for full-time soldiers.
You said: "But any who love riches more than they love themselves would have trouble living among the people of the Nine Nations or any of the tribes around here." I can answer this: Army could impose much more order and punish theft and people speaking against you and against wealthier people that are useful to you, not at first of course, but when Army would slowly grow to be big enough. When finally strong enough of course. You cannot be everywhere, your Armed Forces could be. And Inquisitors.
Roads need to be repaired, yes. I mean... A road from good concrete could last for 1000 years in decent shape, but I doubt that you could produce anywhere enough amounts of the good concrete. Some stones would need to suffice, mostly. Your first roads would be pretty bad and would need to be repaired often, I'm afraid, but like it's the case with many crafts road building can be improved in time greatly, with testing and practice. Wider roads with well-pressed dirt underneath are much more durable than smaller ones.
Some of your people are afraid of change, but if you change something for the better, for example, if you allow people to produce much more food with our improvements or make their children more healthy, then make them remember that things were worse and YOU caused everything to be better.
Also, reward your own people, with gifts of wealth, honor and songs about them, if they invent new useful things or improve on these.
Your flag would remind also your soldiers, warriors, and people about loving you when you are not around, because people forget about things much slower when there are symbols to remind them. People that love you would be also very proud and happy while looking at your flag. Maybe you could, as I said before paint a simple red eye on each black or grey flag (as red is well visible on the black). Then make people falsely believe that you can sometimes see through these eyes with your divine magic. Truth is not needed here.
Could your singers count and write for our use how many villages you have and how many people, roughly, live in your lands?
"How is the tower of the chimney built over the oven of the fireplace without falling down into it"? Bricks of the chimney should join into one structure with bricks of the fireplace below, and can indeed be made stronger by some concrete between bricks. Chimney hole/channel/tunnel where smoke enters should open directly into fireplace below, not into the room.
You said: "There is a black metal that tarnishes red and does not melt in wood fire. It must be worked with hammers while hot. But it is not common. It is very rare and the people have not seen it in their memory, but I have some in my hoard. I believe it has only come to the people by trade and is precious to outsiders, too." This is iron, allright! But this is very rare iron that for complicated reasons never existed as iron ore, but always was finished iron. Iron ore is much more common. To transform iron ore into iron you would need furnance with much fresh air and fueled by charcoal, not wood. I believe that art of making iron from iron ore is not yet known by anybody. Besides us, I mean, because some of us know. My fellow Voices, could one of you explain how iron ore looks? I'm not sure how to explain that.
There should be bog iron ore in the swamps, wetlands, bogs... When a layer of peat in the bog is cut and pulled back, pea sized nodules of bog iron ore can be found and harvested...
Blood circulation helps also to keep the heat of the human body at proper levels. And the whole body uses things from food to create said heat. Blood finally "circulates", moves back to the veins. The smallest arteries end in a network of tiny vessels known as the capillary network that ends in the veins. Blood is then no longer full of oxygen that was used by the body. Then blood is again oxygenated in the different capillary network of the lungs, carbon dioxide is removed in the lungs, oxygenated blood is moved to arteries from lungs and the whole cycle repeats and repeats... Blood with oxygen, then without, then again full of oxygen, and again without oxygen; repeat and repeat and this ends only in death at least for the non-magical mortals. Whole body makes new blood, but for complicated reasons bone marrow (the soft fatty thing inside bones) is the most important for that.
As you now know about atoms, you should understand some of our future words better.
I know about a Voice that loves slavery and may try to persuade you to support widespread slavery. The problem is, free workers motivated with some moderate greed or honor work much harder and better than slaves.
Another problem with slavery, at least hereditary slavery, and with raising one tribe over others, is also as such... Even among slaves, there would be always some wise people that could be much better as traders, or warriors, or singers; instead of working as slaves or like slaves... Maybe this could work but only with some way for a truly exceptional children of slaves or "inferior" tribesmen to be raised into free ruling society. After all, the most brilliant and talented children should know a proper language and customs even when born to slaves, not only weird customs of their parents. Without any way to raise standing of such people, such a system can waste a great deal of human wisdom...
And some Voices are too bloodthirsty. After endless boredom hearing about people dying is fun, I get that, but it's not always the best advice.
And maybe instead of teaching children many languages, I know about Voice that wants to suggest such, could you try to create a new simplified language for basic writing and communication between traders and in the Armed Forces?
And... What? No, no my fellow Voices, to judge all writing as worthy or not is an utter waste of time. Even traders would need to write numbers of their goods, sooner or later, to improve trade properly.
I must say that we, Voices, do not always agree, especially not about all details.
What else, we are somewhat limited and I cannot speak for the whole day... I know... A small food and health advice maybe...
Germs like to eat and reproduce in higher temperatures - though not too high ones, like most living things. You can slow rotting, not completely but significantly, by keeping food cold. Create an underground room, preferably deep one. Store vast amount of ice during winter. If there is enough ice, there should be some ice and cold even during the next summer, and said room should remain much colder than outside. People could store meats, fish, fruits, milk and various other foods and drinks in the icehouse. People could even enjoy some cold beer during summer. Still, remember that after a while meat would rot even in the icehouse. Much slower than in the summer heat, though. Usual preservation methods are still important and can help even more.
I think that I may also know a way to keep food for travels, without honey... It's called pemmican. Dry lean meat, crush said dry meat to dust, and mix one-to-one with tallow. This would probably taste awfully bad, but well, it's better than starvation during travels. Pemmican can generally last from one to five years, depends on quality or whether anything else was added. You can add dried fruits, but then your pemmican would probably last for one year, not more. Less danger of scurvy, though.
One of diseases not caused by germs: scurvy. Symptoms include weakness, feeling tired, changes to hair, sore arms and legs, gum disease, easy bleeding. It's caused by a lack of fruit in diet, for example, if fisherman or sailor decides to eat mostly fish for a month, or during winter. Fruits are the proper cure, improvement often begins in a few days with complete recovery in a few weeks.
Lead. If you know about weighty metal known as lead, then I must inform you that lead is mild poison, that rarely kills, but often cause children to be stupider, and this effect persists for a whole human life. Lead shouldn't be used for pots, water pipes, or anything that touches food or water. Thankfully lead is boring and dull in appearance anyway.
Oh, and I could forget. You can use clay tablets for writing. Use clay again if you want to only teach writing, but if said writing is important fire clay tablet like pottery to harden this thing for many years.
Wikipedia, Simple Wikipedia, often heavily modified
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 5:12 AM, finished with 10 posts and 6 votes.
This is f****g catastrophe, by the way. That forest of monsters may eat our farmland for the next 400 years. We must be vary, transforming world into the wh-40k-style daemon-infested hell from the Eye of Terror is the last thing needed. Universe with these laws of nature may even be doomed to such fate (if deaths of maybe 5 000 sapient creatures and one forest caused this, I don't want to think what would happen after explosion of nuclear weapon over any major city, even if 3000 years from now), but there is no reason to speed up such apocalypse...
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 12:48 PM, finished with 15 posts and 7 votes.
the suggestion of some form of trade-speak for inter-tribe communication has merit still I think some of our people knowing multiple languages would be a good idea. someone who only knows English will think in English while someone who only knows Spanish will think in Spanish however if a person knows enough languages they eventually start thinking in ideas rather than words which improves mental flexibility
edit: i know I said I'd just be making edits to my previous posts but having things behind spoiler blocks means no one can really tell when edits have been made
editedit: sorry got wires crossed was thinking of unsymbolized thinking, still knowing multiple languages does help with memory and critical thinking among other things. I'm not advocating that every child should know multiple languages merely that children born of two houses be exposed to multiple languages
I think in both polish and english, not in ideas whatever that means, anyway... this is pre-industrial society where children need to work so that society wouldn't starve, even with my fertilizers + pretty advanced ideas about biochar/terra preta).
Greetings, Undying One! If you wish a name to call me by, then you may call me the Chronicler.
I will start with saying, that I said dedication to the art of warfare, not to warfare itself. So, what I meant was that warriors ought to spend their life to preparing themselves to war, not to simply fight war.
When you talk about having warriors who only wrestle and playfight, you do seem like you have understood what I meant, though I think there is more to a warrior's life and training than wrestling and playfighting. Also, as you have said yourself, hard labor does also train a warrior's body in its own fashion.
The bow is a good example on a weapon where regular training is required to truly master it, though one might not have to dedicate the whole of their life to do this, but if a warrior wish to master multiple weapons, then he might have to do so.
When it comes to a warrior becoming one with his weapon, then I will say that I have never been a warrior myself, but when it has been described to me, then it is that a warrior has gotten so much practices and skill with a weapon, that he can use it instinctively, like one might know how to use ones legs to walk.
When I talked about groups of warriors acting as one, I meant it like how a body may be doing many things at once, but they are all coordinated with each other to achieve the overall goal. An example might be a warrior that have a shield in one hand and an axe in the other. He might use his shield hand to block his enemy's attack, while his axe hand is already counterattacking. His legs are maintaining the proper stance, while his eyes are on his enemy, watching his every move. This is what I meant, when talking about acting as one, that the Nine Nation's warriors may have coordinated their actions to maximize their chance of victory.
When you talked about warriors doing the same act at the same time, then I would to a certain extent recommended the loosening of arrows as one, which might be called for volley fire. The point of volley fire would be to make up for inaccuracy amongst your archers, since it is hard for someone to avoid a rain of arrows.
If you are asking about the benefit in acting as one, as in maintaining a combat formation, then one benefit is that they make it harder for someone to flak a warrior, since he would be standing side by side with his fellow warriors.
Other voices have described how to harness a horse, but I will say that a decent use of these youths on horses, if they learn how to ride horses, is that they would serve as good scouts and messengers, because of the quickness of their horses.
I do not know much about shield making, but you might try using bronze to strengthening shields, perhaps like adding some bronze on the top of the shield to protect the shield weapons hitting it from that direction.
This talk about the weight of shields does also explain, why I see the training of warrior's bodies and increasing their strength and endurance as important, because they will need it, if they wish to fight with heavy equipment.
I want to correct myself, when I claimed that there were roughly four categories of warriors, since I failed to talk about the different weapons these groups might use, but you do seem to be aware of this, like the difference between using spears or axes.
[X] [Sabbatical] Construct more pylons roads, build more roads
[X] [Staffing] Get some people, but not too many
[X] [Steward] Appoint the singer best suited to the job
[X] [Cacophony] Mortenkam
As always, do tell me if there is something there could be improved.
If you mean that forest, then it's a f****g catastrophe, but what is haunted cannot be... unhaunted. Not at our magical tech level, and we know tech, not this magic. Maybe you can teach her about iron?
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 2:43 PM, finished with 17 posts and 7 votes.
[] [Sabbatical] Go see what this 'city' nonsense is all about
Leaving the peoples unsupervised at this juncture is not advisable. Suggest waiting until after a great victory, or otherwise time when the people greatly favor you. [X] [Sabbatical] Bees?
Food, Trade, Healing, and they can also help crops grow. This will provide the most immediate and obvious improvement to the lives of the people.
[] [Sabbatical] Construct more pylons roads, build more roads
The people are not yet developed enough for this to be worth the cost. Roads that are worth the name require a continuing effort to upkeep. Definitely something to consider for the future, but not now, when tribes still roam the lands. Wait for them to become more settled.
[] [Sabbatical] Prep for surgery, stat!
The current value of this is dubious. You are not yet equipped with the tools to make use of this knowledge, it may cause counterproductive fear amongst the peoples, and there yet remain many lower hanging fruit besides.
[] [Sabbatical] It's five o'clock somewhere; make liquor
Certainly many uses, a definite second priority. We would prefer your people to become more acquainted with the throwing of pottery and working of metal first.
[] [Sabbatical] Write in
[X] [Staffing] Minimum (solo, in most cases)
If you fully develop the secrets yourself, then more concessions may be extracted from those with whom you later choose to share.
For the keeping of bees in particular, you have the advantage that helpers would not be necessary, unlike the workings of iron which may require and entire tribe to work together in constructing smelters of the required size.
[X] [Steward] Council of three eldars from each tribe
Should a matter come to you, that means that the tribal chiefs and first chief have already failed, and promoting one among the singers could lead to distrust. Ostensibly, your authority among the tribes derives from the accumulated wisdom from you many summers. Thus a council of the wisest mortals is likely the only way to approach your greatosity.
I disagree strongly. We had, in fact, our victory (...we also caused slow-moving magical catastrophe, but weeeell...). She need to see cities to understand what the f**k we are talking about. Better sooner than later, when we will have even more Very Important Projects Back Home, We Are Afraid To Leave These.
And singer should be appointed to centralize more power.
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 5:48 PM, finished with 19 posts and 8 votes.
I disagree strongly. We had, in fact, our victory (...we also caused slow-moving magical catastrophe, but weeeell...). She need to see cities to understand what the f**k we are talking about. Better sooner than later, when we will have even more Very Important Projects Back Home, We Are Afraid To Leave These.
And singer should be appointed to centralize more power.
It was not so great a victory. We won, yes. But consider how the tribes will view Biancas role in this victory. She has earned much fear and little love. The search for cities can wait. You must have a town before a city, and a village before a town. We could just like stop talking about cities? They are important in the long term sure, but we should really be focusing on strengthening the tribes first. Forming a city is not a goal to seek, it is an inevitable consequence, and challenge, of our real goals.
I want her to see how differences of wealth, trade and more advanced and disciplined customs work, mainly. Cities not needed, but she can see this properly only in said cities. (edit: and in villages that belong to empires and kingdoms with capitals in cities, of course)
And we have well-settled villages, in fact... We are not nomadic at all.
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 7:45 PM, finished with 21 posts and 8 votes.
I think that I can be persuaded to vote for road building if we want Bianca to remain in her land. Certainly not for the bees, though. Roads, very basic fortifications, and such are solid infrastructural work and foundation for any future towns. I improved agriculture already, bees are not THAT urgent.
There are solid settled villages, no, we are slightly savage, but we are not nomads. People who believe that much more is needed for basic infrastructure overstate difficulties.
Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 16, 2019 at 8:14 PM, finished with 25 posts and 8 votes.
