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Warhammer 40k General thread

Parth said:
Keep in mind that when Guilliman was speaking those words, he was on his homeworld of Macragge.

He said what he did was based on standards that he set and how far they fell apart in 10K years.
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I didn't say he didn't live up to his own standards. My point was(or was attempting to be) that those standards themselves are likely a bit warped given he is as Imperial as an Imperial can get.
 
By all accounts the 500 worlds were pretty good before the Heresy I think? He won a bunch via cultural victories rather than martial conquest and was fairly wildly beloved. Getting stuck with post-Guilliman Imperium is going to kind of suck compared to that.
 
I mean sure but it's not like he didn't see the state of the rest of the imperium both before AND after the heresy vostroya was not brought up for no reason at all.

I think Mccrage and the 500 worlds may have blinkered him a bit but he ought not be as surprised as he is. I was about to ask if people on this thread were talking past each other before I realized I was talking to Parth who has a particularly long record of for lack of more polite alternatives, getting stuck on certain topics and stances.

Thank goodness they are not trying to tell me about how the Imperium isn't fascist right now.
 
Guilliman is as Imperial as Imperial can get, yes, but judging from his comments and behavior in the various 30k novels, he viewed the Imperium's conquest and brutality as a transitory period. The birthing pains before something greater, if you'll pardon the metaphor. He envisioned a galaxy where each planet was ruled by a Space Marine, who were designed by the Emperor to excel in all things, and so the future was bright. After the Heresy, he put forth the Codex Astartes specifically to prevent anything like it from happening again. The Imperium wasn't secure, not truly, but it had survived, and they were intact enough to rebuild. Even without the Emperor's direct guidance, surely, with the remainder of his brothers they could build something worth the struggle (keep in mind he disappeared centuries before the first Black Crusade; I'm pretty sure he even disappeared before the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy came to real prominence though I know the former existed in some capacity)

Then one day he wakes up to find that the Imperium has fallen so far off the rails that it's become everything he, his brothers and his father fought to prevent. Why even defeat Horus at all if the same result was going to come about anyway?
 
So, your are perhaps saying he was deluded but had what looked like valid data to support his views at the time?
 
weird question but why is it that so many Games Workshop writers also work at Riot?

like ADB, Reynold, Dan Abett, it seems if you wrote for Black Library you also write for Riot with Reynold even becoming the lore director or Riot Games and writing the first LOL book.
HalfTangible said:
Then one day he wakes up to find that the Imperium has fallen so far off the rails that it's become everything he, his brothers and his father fought to prevent. Why even defeat Horus at all if the same result was going to come about anyway?
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I mean the horribly xenophobia and hatred of "impure" humans was always part of it alongside authoritarianism. so i don't really see it as much of a change expect for slightly more skulls.
 
Konradleijon said:
weird question but why is it that so many Games Workshop writers also work at Riot?

like ADB, Reynold, Dan Abett, it seems if you wrote for Black Library you also write for Riot with Reynold even becoming the lore director or Riot Games and writing the first LOL book.
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Graham McNeill, too.

I mean the horribly xenophobia and hatred of "impure" humans was always part of it alongside authoritarianism. so i don't really see it as much of a change expect for slightly more skulls.
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The extreme religiosity and veneration of ignorance are new, and both xenophobia and hatred of the impure has gone from a matter of practicality to a matter of course. Additionally while the Emperor and his sons were never the kindest to humans, Guilliman was generally kinder than, say, the Lion or Kurze, and even if he wasn't there's a pretty big leap between "blow up this city as an example to the rest of the planet and the Imperium" and "burn the entire sector and everyone in it just to be sure because a corpse I've never been within a light year of would want me to"

Also do you think the guy who is the 2nd best argument for a singular ruler (with a father who is the 1st) is gonna give a shit about authoritarianism beyond who you chose to put in charge of it? Even if he were, I'd point out that the Inquisition didn't have anywhere near the power it does in modern 40k even after the Heresy. IIRC they didn't gain serious power until after the War of the Beast, where Guilliman was already gone.
 
16 characters said:
That his delusions about everything being both great and stable may have come from being surrounded by most of that greatness and stability rather than say living in the bottom layers of Hive-Cities?
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I'm not saying that 30k was great and stable, nor that Guilliman was dumb enough to think that there were no starving citizens in the streets of Hive Cities. My assertion is that Guilliman compared the 30k Imperium to the Age of Strife, found it a marked improvement, and believed the Imperium responsible for it. He assumed up until the Heresy that this improvement would continue, and so long as it did, that was enough for him.
 
I actually have no idea how Riot plays into GW's writing staff, but considering how BL authors can be found in Creative Assembly (Abnett wrote that Alien game) and Fat Shark (Vermintide has Ward, Darktide again has Abnett), it may just BL authors suggesting their BL friends to work at these game studios.
 
HalfTangible said:
The extreme religiosity and veneration of ignorance are new, and both xenophobia and hatred of the impure has gone from a matter of practicality to a matter of course. Additionally while the Emperor and his sons were never the kindest to humans, Guilliman was generally kinder than, say, the Lion or Kurze, and even if he wasn't there's a pretty big leap between "blow up this city as an example to the rest of the planet and the Imperium" and "burn the entire sector and everyone in it just to be sure because a corpse I've never been within a light year of would want me to"
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I mean the Imperial Truth itself was itself factual incorrect. as gods do exist. faith can be used as a powerful weapon against chaos or nids.

the Imperial Truth failed because it was a fucking lie.

Hykal94 said:
I actually have no idea how Riot plays into GW's writing staff, but considering how BL authors can be found in Creative Assembly (Abnett wrote that Alien game) and Fat Shark (Vermintide has Ward, Darktide again has Abnett), it may just BL authors suggesting their BL friends to work at these game studios.
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I presume Networking with authors telling their friends about opportunities.

interesting but the novel Renyolds is writing is from the POV of one of the least played characters in League. which considering his list of rejected pitches he posted on Twitter is worth knowing
 
Apparently Reynolds or some other author wanted to write a story based on General Jenit Sulla (yes, the Sulla that Cain despises) and how she's some super optimist and the challenges of running an army. I'd totally read it.
 
... Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Imperial Knights vs Primarchs. (generic general primarch, say the Lost and Purged)

Primarchs walk through space marines unless vastly outnumbered (and even then you'd still bet on the primarch).

Titans are a serious problem. Fulgrim and Lorgar both destroyed one with psychic powers, but it's implied in both cases that the Titan had a very real chance of killing them. Lorgar only barely survives getting blasted with one, because Angron is there to prevent a second shot (iirc; been a while since I read Betrayer).

So where does that place Knights? In my head, they're not a pushover exactly, but an easy enough win.
 
HalfTangible said:
... Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Imperial Knights vs Primarchs. (generic general primarch, say the Lost and Purged)

Primarchs walk through space marines unless vastly outnumbered (and even then you'd still bet on the primarch).

Titans are a serious problem. Fulgrim and Lorgar both destroyed one with psychic powers, but it's implied in both cases that the Titan had a very real chance of killing them. Lorgar only barely survives getting blasted with one, because Angron is there to prevent a second shot (iirc; been a while since I read Betrayer).

So where does that place Knights? In my head, they're not a pushover exactly, but an easy enough win.
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Power levels are always going to be a minefield of headcanon in this kind of franchise. Personally, I rank Primarchs as basically unbeatable weapons of war. If you put a Primarch up against pretty much literally anything the Primarch will always win. The obvious exception is the Emperor or a Chaos God (maybe a sufficiently whole C'tan shard) but I think Primarch vs Greater Daemon, Avatar, Titan, etc. is a win for the Primarch. This is because I like the whole demi-god thing. Other people dislike this and trend more towards them being fundamentally human scale, threatened by sufficiently massed bolters and the like.

re: Knights specifically: IIRC Kharn has bested a Knight, so I'd probably go with a Primarch doing it pretty reliably.
 
Since we are on the topic of Titans, my understanding of the lore is that the mechanicus as a political entity had established itself much faster than the Imperium had. They also seem to have dealt with the age of strife better than most I guess due to being so insular.

Why didn't mars look at the nascent Imperium on earth after the first couple of continental conquests and go ''nope not letting those loonies get orbital''?

Is there some Justifcation given for how passive they were before being contacted, in like any source in the universe?
 
16 characters said:
Since we are on the topic of Titans, my understanding of the lore is that the mechanicus as a political entity had established itself much faster than the Imperium had. They also seem to have dealt with the age of strife better than most I guess due to being so insular.

Why didn't mars look at the nascent Imperium on earth after the first couple of continental conquests and go ''nope not letting those loonies get orbital''?

Is there some Justifcation given for how passive they were before being contacted, in like any source in the universe?
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They just want to grill for god's sake.
 
16 characters said:
Is there some Justifcation given for how passive they were before being contacted, in like any source in the universe?
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They actually didn't deal with the Age of Strife as well as it sounds. The Librarium Omnis probably contains all human knowledge; it's also something into which more heavily armed expeditions disappear than come out by a good a margin, haunted by hostile constructs of pure data and AIs into 40k's present. It's strongly implied that before the Emperor landed that was actually most of Mars, and the Mechanicus was so industrialized just to produce weapons to fight off the hostile tech around their own forges. The presence of the Void Dragon lends some credence to this.
 
16 characters said:
Since we are on the topic of Titans, my understanding of the lore is that the mechanicus as a political entity had established itself much faster than the Imperium had. They also seem to have dealt with the age of strife better than most I guess due to being so insular.

Why didn't mars look at the nascent Imperium on earth after the first couple of continental conquests and go ''nope not letting those loonies get orbital''?

Is there some Justifcation given for how passive they were before being contacted, in like any source in the universe?
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They weren't. Mars was already sending out Exploratory Fleets by the time the Emperor became anything more than "just another warlord." They had even spent some time raiding Terra's surface for lost technologies, and had become enemies with the same techno-barbarians that the Emperor was fighting against. They welcomed his arrival and taming of the human homeworld, at worst viewing him as Terra's problem.

Even if that were just imperial propaganda after the fact (possible), Terra had seen the rise and fall of plenty of "great warlords" for centuries. By the time it became clear the Emperor was more than just another of these warlords, he had enough resources and power to make destroying him a costly endeavor.

Keep in mind: one of the big reasons the Emperor even offered the treaty of Olympus was the fact that a war between the Imperium and the Mechanicum - even in these early stages - would've resulted in near annihilation of both parties regardless of who actually won. The Mechanicum was doubtless aware of the same. The Emperor had the Space Marines, his custodes, and more psykers (including himself), but the Mechanicum had far more advanced technology, greater forge-complexes, and (of course) knights and Titans. When the Emperor arrived he offered to respect the sovereignty of Mars' forge worlds and to give them six navigator houses in exchange for a formal alliance, which is a pretty sweet deal given the alternative is MAD.

(Also he could repair machines with a touch, hence them thinking him the Omnissiah).
 
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