Warcraft: The Rise of the Mag'har

[Cecylene]

I've been hit with an inspiration stick after my little schpeel. Time for typing other things.
------------------------------------
The Shamans sat around the stacked and unlit bonfire wood, the large and numerous chimes that were hanging from posts around their circle were utterly still and silent, the earth was tamped flat for dozens of feet in every direction, and there wasn't a cloud in the sky for miles around.

Many had been chosen to participate in preparing the Warchief for his audience with the Furies and the Ritual to follow and all of them could be found in this one location. Waiting for any signs to come that the Warchief's audience was over and the Shaman could return to the Throne of Elements to bear witness to another rebirth of an ancient Pact and Tradition.

Or collect the corpse that more than a few feared they would find there.

There were no drinks to be found in the Shaman's makeshift camp save water and no food would be found either, only a stockpile of herbs that were on hand for, hopefully, praise and thanksgiving to the Furies and accolades to the Warchief.

Of the Shamans who fretted away the minutes and hours, the eldest four had not spoken a word since personally preparing and chanting over the Warchief immediately before the leader of the Mag'har entered the Throne of Elements alone as his friend Jorin had so long ago. They had known some of the older Blademasters and had studied under the Shamans who had presided over those preparations. While none had ever uttered a word about what was necessary or the chants used, they had spoken at length of the manner of the Furies immediately before the Ritual.

Their mentors had spoken of strict standards, swift urging and correction at even the slightest hesitation, a blazing desire hotter than a campfire, and secrets that would take days of meditation to discern.

Any familiarity and hope of reconnecting to the lost mentors of the past was shattered when the Furies began to direct the four on the methods to prepare Dranosh Saurfang for his audience. The Furies commanded them with words that brokered no error or uncertainty in thought or deed, corrected them with a lash sharper than their original guilt at ever believing in the false teachings of the Shame, a fervor and aggression that threatened to consume them from the inside with it's desire, and with every action and word flowing from one to the next to add another layer of meaning and importance more inscrutable than the last.

So the four remained seated on the ground shivering in the cool and utterly silent air, and desperately trying to not mention that fifth voice that called so softly and sweetly from over the horizon. It's words were honeyed milk and a father's encouragement. When it's murmurs first intruded into the preparations the four nearly cried out in fear at lingering fel taint on the land until they were swiftly, and painfully, told to continue without pause. The new voice did not stop it's susurrations until Dranosh had entered the Throne and disappeared from sight. Once the Warchief had disappeared from view, the four had collapsed as though their spines had been cut and needed to be carried to their current positions.

They had recovered enough of their strength to move but had not done so, for they could hear a faint call over the horizon once more. So weak yet so beautiful even in it's low and quiet tone. Now that they could divert a thought to the noise, the four glanced nearly as one to the direction they had realized the voice was calling from.

They would forever after swear that in that moment they could see a glow and hear the ringing of bells come from Oshugan.

 

[GiftOfLove]

Dranosh is all of these things. Each describe a part of him, and a part of the path that has led him here. It's a cycle. If we weren't forced to choose just one, I would pick them all. There is no wrong answer.

However, what I admire in Dranosh the most, and what I think is best for both him and his people, is the aspect of himself aligned with Water. He brings people together, heals them, and mends bonds. Water signifies to me what Dranosh wants to be.

He is fueled by passion, Fire.

He purified his people's hearts, Earth.

He knows who and what he is, Air.

He wants to bring others together. He seeks to atone for what the orcs have done. He does his best to heal the wounds in the world and everyone in it. Water.

 

[Dark Abstraction]

I've been hit with an inspiration stick after my little schpeel. Time for typing other things.
------------------------------------
The Shamans sat around the stacked and unlit bonfire wood, the large and numerous chimes that were hanging from posts around their circle were utterly still and silent, the earth was tamped flat for dozens of feet in every direction, and there wasn't a cloud in the sky for miles around.

Many had been chosen to participate in preparing the Warchief for his audience with the Furies and the Ritual to follow and all of them could be found in this one location. Waiting for any signs to come that the Warchief's audience was over and the Shaman could return to the Throne of Elements to bear witness to another rebirth of an ancient Pact and Tradition.

Or collect the corpse that more than a few feared they would find there.

There were no drinks to be found in the Shaman's makeshift camp save water and no food would be found either, only a stockpile of herbs that were on hand for, hopefully, praise and thanksgiving to the Furies and accolades to the Warchief.

Of the Shamans who fretted away the minutes and hours, the eldest four had not spoken a word since personally preparing and chanting over the Warchief immediately before the leader of the Mag'har entered the Throne of Elements alone as his friend Jorin had so long ago. They had known some of the older Blademasters and had studied under the Shamans who had presided over those preparations. While none had ever uttered a word about what was necessary or the chants used, they had spoken at length of the manner of the Furies immediately before the Ritual.

Their mentors had spoken of strict standards, swift urging and correction at even the slightest hesitation, a blazing desire hotter than a campfire, and secrets that would take days of meditation to discern.

Any familiarity and hope of reconnecting to the lost mentors of the past was shattered when the Furies began to direct the four on the methods to prepare Dranosh Saurfang for his audience. The Furies commanded them with words that brokered no error or uncertainty in thought or deed, corrected them with a lash sharper than their original guilt at ever believing in the false teachings of the Shame, a fervor and aggression that threatened to consume them from the inside with it's desire, and with every action and word flowing from one to the next to add another layer of meaning and importance more inscrutable than the last.

So the four remained seated on the ground shivering in the cool and utterly silent air, and desperately trying to not mention that fifth voice that called so softly and sweetly from over the horizon. It's words were honeyed milk and a father's encouragement. When it's murmurs first intruded into the preparations the four nearly cried out in fear at lingering fel taint on the land until they were swiftly, and painfully, told to continue without pause. The new voice did not stop it's susurrations until Dranosh had entered the Throne and disappeared from sight. Once the Warchief had disappeared from view, the four had collapsed as though their spines had been cut and needed to be carried to their current positions.

They had recovered enough of their strength to move but had not done so, for they could hear a faint call over the horizon once more. So weak yet so beautiful even in it's low and quiet tone. Now that they could divert a thought to the noise, the four glanced nearly as one to the direction they had realized the voice was calling from.

They would forever after swearr that in that moment they could see a glow and hear the ringing of bells come from Oshugan.

Click to shrink...

I love you a little bit, just wanted to mention. That was beautiful.

 

[Qeqre]

Who is Dranosh Saurfang? Can anyone sum up who they are in a single sentence?

Click to shrink...

The sentence would involve concepts that have long since surpassed my skill at language and would be construed using grammar that bounds into infinity but yes.

Likewise, can anyone hope to do the same to another without doing them a terrible disservice?

Click to shrink...

To give a measure of what is most accurate for a finite number of paths to walk? Yes.

Dranosh is Dranosh. He is all that Dranosh is: everything good and everything ill. Everything that can be described in words, and everything that cannot.

Click to shrink...

And the question being posed is which of these paths describe him best.

Not a perfect fit. The most suitable one. A choice must be made.

All the other statements tie Dranosh's character to one thing or another. This is inaccurate and smothering; he is more than words can describe. He is Dranosh Saurfang, no more and no less.

Click to shrink...

And the Furies don't understand the concept of Dranosh Saurfang. So they ask What Dranosh Saurfang is and which of the four paths they represent represents him best.

Perfect compatibility isn't required. Choice is demanded.

They want an approximation into something they can understand.

 

[Stormgear]

*Snip*

Click to shrink...

I went back and edited my previous post to account for the edit you made to your last one as well. It answers several of the points you raise here.

And the Furies don't understand the concept of Dranosh Saurfang. So they ask What Dranosh Saurfang is and which of the four paths they represent represents him best.

Perfect compatibility isn't required. Choice is demanded.

They want an approximation into something they can understand.

Click to shrink...

The Furies understand far more than you seem to credit them with. They could see behind the titles and the names that Dranosh described himself with. They saw, beneath all that, who he was.

Infinity comprehends infinity. The Furies understand the world, and they also understand how long eternity must be. They have existed for aeons. That the choice is presented implies that they are capable of comprehending all that Dranosh is.

 

[Serxeid]

[X] I am unifier, the brother who seeks forgiveness and to heal the pains caused by my kind. (Water)

 

[Qeqre]

He is more than what you say.

Click to shrink...

I never said it was all that he was. Merely that we are passion.

You view this as being evasive, of not buckling down and choosing a single thing by which he can be summed up.

Click to shrink...

And none of the options define it by a single thing.

You chose that narrative. Not me.

My position is that, of the four, the path of fire represents him most comprehensively.

Or, if we are to take your position that wind realizes the inner infinity: most accurately.

I believe otherwise. The fact that we are even given the choice to define as such is evidence that it's a valid decision. The proper path is that of inclusiveness: of embracing all that one is and all that one is capable of and saying that this- all of this- is who one is.

Click to shrink...

The fact that we are given a choice is evidence that all paths are proper. But nice try.

Blood family, purity, social family, species(amongst other things).

We are being given the choice to define who we are most. And "Orc" is a broad enough concept to not accurately describe us. For it contains a broad array of things that Dranosh is not, just as it does not encompass many concepts that Dranosh is.

Orc is but one of the many things that describe Dranosh.

This is not wishy-washy, this is not indecisive. This is looking in the mirror and saying 'yes, I am who I am. I am no more and no less than who I am.' It is saying that nothing-- nothing-- can adequately contain and describe who you are as a person.

Click to shrink...

Wishy-washy?

I am not saying it is wishy-washy, I'm saying it is mistaken.

There are aspects of wind that define Dranosh but I do not agree with the notion that 无 is the answer given by the choice of wind.

Sorry if that was unclear.

Again, we are being asked to choose a path.

 

[GiftOfLove]

The Furies understand far more than you seem to credit them with. They could see behind the titles and the names that Dranosh described himself with. They saw, beneath all that, who he was.

Click to shrink...

Not exactly. The things Dranosh used to describe himself aren't meaningless just because they have no meaning to the Furies. After all, Warchief for the Mag'har means something. In fact it is exceedingly meaningful to them. Full of nuance and such.

Then again, you could say that is what others see him as. Not who he is. But aren't we also defined by others as much as we define ourselves?

 

[Stormgear]

I never said it was all that he was. Merely that we are passion.And none of the options define it by a single thing. You chose that narrative. Not me. My position is that, of the four, the path of fire represents him most comprehensively. Or, if we are to take your position that wind realizes the inner infinity: most accurately.

Click to shrink...

And it is my opinion that the other three paths fail to define him comprehensively even when taken together. 'Who are you?' is the question being posed. Not 'what defines you best.' It's not even 'who do you think you are.' The question is 'who are you?'

None, save wind, is capable of fully answering that question.

The fact that we are given a choice is evidence that all paths are proper. But nice try. Blood family, purity, social family, species. We are being given the choice to define who we are most. And "Orc" is a broad enough concept to not accurately describe us. For it contains a broad array of things that Dranosh is not, just as it does not encompass many concepts that Dranosh is. Orc is but one of the many things that describe Dranosh.

Click to shrink...

No, the fact that we are given a choice is evidence that all of the paths are choices. It says nothing about the correctness of any one of those paths. The properness of the Path of Inclusiveness is something that evolves naturally when you attempt to answer the question: 'Who Is Dranosh Saurfang?'

Wishy-washy? I am not saying it is wishy-washy, I'm saying it is mistaken. There are aspects of wind that define Dranosh but I do not agree with the notion that 无 is the answer given by the choice of wind. Sorry if that was unclear.

Click to shrink...

I believe that it is what is implied; all else describes some title or status or history that Dranosh can choose. Only the path of wind says 'I am who I am.' There is ambiguity there, yes. There is a lack of definition. But this is the truth. Who Dranosh Saurfang is is impossible to adequately define with only one of the other three paths.*

Again, we are being asked to choose a path.

Click to shrink...

I am pretty sure that is what I am suggesting we do, yes.

The path of Dranosh Saurfang. Not the path of the Blackrock or the path of the Pure or the path of the Unifier, but the path that Dranosh Saurfang walks.

Then again, you could say that is what others see him as. Not who he is. But aren't we also defined by others as much as we define ourselves?

Click to shrink...

The first part is accurate, that's basically what I'm saying. But this is the thing, you see: the way others see and define us does not necessarily infringe upon 'who we are' as people. All that those beliefs answer is 'who do people think we are,' which is a very different question indeed! Others can define you however they like, but they cannot do so comprehensively. You can ask a thousand people to describe you, and many will say wildly different and often incorrect things, because they don't have the full picture of who you are.

Hell, I'm pretty sure nobody even truly knows themselves. That sort of thing is typically on the level of entities like the Buddha. Everyone is different, and I am sure that if you described yourself to me- right now- I could say 'but you're more' and be correct in that assumption.

(*Context: 无 is the character 'mu' or 'wu' which means 'nothingness,' 'emptiness' or 'without.' This isn't the kind of nothingness that you'd normally assume. It's not exactly an idea that can be put into words, but I'll try anyway. In the context of the argument here, 无 is being used to describe a full and ineffable totality of consciousness and being. This is just one use of it, though.)

 

[Qeqre]

And it is my opinion that the other three paths fail to define him comprehensively even when taken together. 'Who are you?' is the question being posed. Not 'what defines you best.' It's not even 'who do you think you are.' The question is 'who are you?'

None, save wind, is capable of fully answering that question.

Click to shrink...

And in my opinion, wind fails even harder as it fails to accurately describe him.

And without accuracy, we may as well be throwing random words at them.

No, the fact that we are given a choice is evidence that all paths are choices. It says nothing about the correctness of any one of those paths. The properness of the Path of Inclusiveness is something that evolves naturally when you attempt to answer the question: 'Who Is Dranosh Saurfang?'

Click to shrink...

No, it evolves when you refuse to say "no, this doesn't really define me" leaving you no further along on the question of "what defines me"

It's a good way to erase the sense of self of any particular instance of the you and have it subsumed by the infinite. Pretty sure that would count as a non-standard game over if entirely successful.

I believe that it is what is implied; all else describes some title or status or history that Dranosh can choose. Only the path of wind says 'I am who I am.' There is ambiguity there, yes. There is a lack of definition. But this is the truth. Who Dranosh Saurfang is is impossible to adequately define with only one of the other three paths.

Click to shrink...

"Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind" isn't a title to you? It doesn't suggest a history?

Read the option again. It doesn't appear to represent what you seem to think it does.

Hell, I'm pretty sure nobody even truly knows themselves. That sort of thing is typically on the level of entities like the Buddha. Everyone is different, and I am sure that if you described yourself to me- right now- I could say 'but you're more' and be correct in that assumption.

Click to shrink...

Often, the act of describing ourselves in full(when one manages to come close, even by thought) changes our nature.

In that sense, our language isn't equipped to describe ourselves.

 

[Stormgear]

And in my opinion, wind fails even harder as it fails to accurately describe him. And without accuracy, we may as well be throwing random words at them.

Click to shrink...

No, Wind fails to be precise, but it is completely and fully accurate. The difference is subtle; none of the other paths are truly accurate, but they are much more precise. By contrast, Wind says 'yes, we are all that we are,' and so it can't help but to be accurate. The lack of precision is fine- I don't believe thinking beings can be precisely defined, we can only say 'this is part of who he is' and 'this is not part of who he is' and by answering those questions, bit by bit, we start to get an idea of who that person is. But saying 'I am pure' or 'I am blood of Blackrock' as a single, decisive statement significantly reduces the scope of Who Dranosh Is. Words are powerful things, and definition is among the places where words are at their strongest.

No, it evolves when you refuse to say "no, this doesn't really define me" leaving you no further along on the question of "what defines me." It's a good way to erase the sense of self of any particular instance of the you and have it subsumed by the infinite. Pretty sure that would count as a non-standard game over if entirely successful.

Click to shrink...

Erase the sense of self? No, I don't think so. In understanding that nothing can summarize you, you can grasp exactly how immense and how infinite you truly are. In so realizing that, you become capable of working down from there and getting a handle on who you really are, absent of all prior definitions. It's not erasing the self, it's liberating the self from the limitations that life, culture and society have imposed upon it to try and reach a greater truth. Sever all of that and you can find what is truly 'you' and what is 'how others defined you.'

"Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind" isn't a title to you? It doesn't suggest a history? Read the option again. It doesn't appear to represent what you seem to think it does.

Click to shrink...

Scion
...
2 a : descendant, child; especially : a descendant of a wealthy, aristocratic, or influential family.

Click to shrink...

'Scion of Nagrand' appears to be accurate in a broader, metaphorical sense, especially as it appears to be a sobriquet of 'Orc.' It then goes on to qualify 'no more, no less,' which is as much a statement of identity in line with what I've been arguing as anything. I'm pretty sure it's what I think it is- but all that we're doing here is interpretation anyway. Your argument, too, is based on an interpretation of the Path of Fire.

Often, the act of describing ourselves in full(when one manages to come close, even by thought) changes our nature. In that sense, our language isn't equipped to describe ourselves.

Click to shrink...

It's a sad fact, yeah. By communicating anything, we must be able to reduce complicated concepts to relatively simple messages. The fidelity of thought, emotion and so on aren't well preserved by our languages.

But hey, some people try pretty hard.

Rrha quel ra irs mea and all that.

 

[Qeqre]

No, Wind fails to be precise, but it is completely and fully accurate. The difference is subtle; none of the other paths are truly accurate, but they are much more precise. By contrast, Wind says 'yes, we are all that we are,' and so it can't help but to be accurate. The lack of precision is fine- I don't believe thinking beings can be precisely defined, we can only say 'this is part of who he is' and 'this is not part of who he is' and by answering those questions, bit by bit, we start to get an idea of who that person is. But saying 'I am pure' or 'I am blood of Blackrock' as a single, decisive statement significantly reduces the scope of Who Dranosh Is. Words are powerful things, and definition is among the places where words are at their strongest.

Click to shrink...

Wind says "I am Orc." "I am of Nagrand" "Nagrand is the land of winds"

It defines us by these concepts. Not by "Dranosh Saurfang"

Erase the sense of self? No, I don't think so.

Click to shrink...

Personal experience.

Never mind it.

In understanding that nothing can summarize you,

Click to shrink...

Not talking about summarizations.

In understanding that nothing can summarize you, you can grasp exactly how immense and how infinite you truly are. In so realizing that, you become capable of working down from there and getting a handle on who you really are, absent of all prior definitions. It's not erasing the self, it's liberating the self from the limitations that life, culture and society have imposed upon it to try and reach a greater truth. Sever all of that and you can find what is truly 'you' and what is 'how others defined you.'

Click to shrink...

Couple steps behind are we?

Just wait until you get the sudden realization that all instances, all variable, all variations are simultaneously true and false in past present and future. With the question itself being in a state of true/false that is there yet not.

That infinity? that path you worked down? One of many. One of choice.

After that, the statement "I am" behaves oddly, for all things define you and all things fail to define you. Your definition is via choice yet all choices have been made/haven't been made/are being made/aren't being made/have yet to be made/will never be made.

The I becomes one of many infinities of the self as your wants are all yet nothing.

'Scion of Nagrand' appears to be accurate in a broader, metaphorical sense, especially as it appears to be a sobriquet of 'Orc.' It then goes on to qualify 'no more, no less,' which is as much a statement of identity in line with what I've been arguing as anything. I'm pretty sure it's what I think it is- but all that we're doing here is interpretation anyway. Your argument, too, is based on an interpretation of the Path of Fire.

Click to shrink...

Ah, but not in the context in which it was given.

Fire, of blood.
Earth, of purity.
Water, of family.
Air, of domain.

The three answers are phrased in the way of:
What are we?
Where do we come from?
Who are we?

And yes, my argument is based on my interpretation of the Path of Fire and my interpretation of Dranosh as I do not conflate the path of Air with the Void.

Heh, the paths are equidistant right?

[Q] Step into the nothingness between Fire and Earth, taking none of the paths presented to you.

 

[Stormgear]

Wind says "I am Orc." "I am of Nagrand" "Nagrand is the land of winds" It defines us by these concepts. Not by "Dranosh Saurfang"

Click to shrink...

Well of course. That's what we're trying to establish here, isn't it? 'Who is Dranosh Saurfang?' You say he is passion. I claim that he is that and so, so much more. So much that it can only be encompassed by saying 'An Orc,' because Orcs, themselves, have the capacity to contain the infinite within themselves.

Couple steps behind are we?

Click to shrink...

I am all that I am, will be, have been. I am the myriad paths, all the roads untaken. I am the result of a confluence of a million, million coincidences. The universe in its infinite mystery came about in such a way that I exist, and yet it could have gone very differently. Possibility, probability, these guarantee that each life is itself an infinity of infinities.

But we're digressing a bit here.

And yes, my argument is based on my interpretation of the Path of Fire and my interpretation of Dranosh as I do not conflate the path of Air with the Void.

Heh, the paths are equidistant right?

[Q] Step into the nothingness between Fire and Earth, taking none of the paths presented to you.

Click to shrink...

Air is the closest thing, but this isn't exactly Legend of the Five Rings. Void is the kind of thing, in-setting, that will devour you entirely if you trifle with it. The Light may be better, but it's still not quite the right fit.

At any rate, even when we do reduce things to those four, I feel as though Who Dranosh Is is best represented by the option provided by Wind. He is an Orc, so he must do as he is doing if he wants to be truly honest to himself and with the world. I can see the argument for Water in this context, but Dranosh has endeavored to make it so that blood doesn't define an Orc's life, so Fire just doesn't seem to fit.

 

[banelord]

[X] I am unifier, the brother who seeks forgiveness and to heal the pains caused by my kind. (Water)

 

[Qeqre]

Well of course. That's what we're trying to establish here, isn't it? 'Who is Dranosh Saurfang?' You say he is passion. I claim that he is that and so, so much more. So much that it can only be encompassed by saying 'An Orc,' because Orcs, themselves, have the capacity to contain the infinite within themselves.

Click to shrink...

And I do not deny that he is so much more. Yet I state that to claim he is Orc(No "an") is sufficiently broad to make it worthless as an answer due to it no longer being accurate enough for the purpose of the question.

Also, the lack of "an" in "I am Orc" implies it does not, like you say, contain the infinity of an individual but rather is more descriptive of the token that is a subset of an individual. An individual who is Orc, rather than an Orc who is an individual and therefore a part of a category that contains an infinity.

I am all that I am, will be, have been. I am the myriad paths, all the roads untaken. I am the result of a confluence of a million, million coincidences. The universe in its infinite mystery came about in such a way that I exist, and yet it could have gone very differently. Possibility, probability, these guarantee that each life is itself an infinity of infinities.

But we're digressing a bit here.

Click to shrink...

Hm, missing the impossibilities.

Good news for your sanity.

Air is the closest thing,

Click to shrink...

I disagree. Air is its own thing in this setting.

Undefined infinite possibility is closer to the warp Twisting Nether. Which is (arguably)the domain of the Arcane.

At any rate, even when we do reduce things to those four, I feel as though Who Dranosh Is is best represented by the option provided by Wind. He is an Orc, so he must do as he is doing if he wants to be truly honest to himself and with the world. I can see the argument for Water in this context, but Dranosh has endeavored to make it so that blood doesn't define an Orc's life, so Fire just doesn't seem to fit.

Click to shrink...

Dranosh has endeavoured to have a person be determined by their will and what they forge themselves into. He has looked at the past and looked at inefficiencies and evils. Saw them and burned away at the traditions he did not want to keep. Burned away the illusions about past glories and quite heatedly said no. Saw what happened and wishes to burn away at the darkness.

He looks to the past and sees how it could be better. What trappings the Mag'har have and how to be rid of the ones that don't work.

And, as he does so, forges ahead to the future, with fiery will.

 

[Stormgear]

And I do not deny that he is so much more. Yet I state that to claim he is Orc(No "an") is sufficiently broad to make it worthless as an answer due to it no longer being accurate enough for the purpose of the question.

Also, the lack of "an" in "I am Orc" implies it does not, like you say, contain the infinity of an individual but rather is more descriptive of the token that is a subset of an individual. An individual who is Orc, rather than an Orc who is an individual and therefore a part of a category that contains an infinity.

Click to shrink...

This is arguing over the semantics. 'I am Orc' can be interpreted either as I have described, or as a descriptor of the species. In such cases, it can easily be both the former and the latter.

Hm, missing the impossibilities.

Good news for your sanity.

Click to shrink...

The possibility of an impossibility is 0%. They're still contained under the umbrella of Possibilities.

I disagree. Air is its own thing in this setting.

Undefined infinite possibility is closer to the warp Twisting Nether. Which is (arguably)the domain of the Arcane.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough. I was saying that, of the four, Air seems the closest to void in this situation, though.

Dranosh has endeavoured to have a person be determined by their will and what they forge themselves into. He has looked at the past and looked at inefficiencies and evils. Saw them and burned away at the traditions he did not want to keep. Burned away the illusions about past glories and quite heatedly said no. Saw what happened and wishes to burn away at the darkness.

He looks to the past and sees how it could be better. What trappings the Mag'har have and how to be rid of the ones that don't work.

And, as he does so, forges ahead to the future, with fiery will.

Click to shrink...

Except that implies that blood is something he's trying to move away from, as far as self-definition goes. This is contrary to the path that you suggest.

All the fire imagery in the world won't help change that. You could easily replace 'burn' with 'wash' or 'blown' and gently nudge the language around and the message will still hold for any of the other elements.

 

[Kir the Wizard]

@torroar has said this: "Looking for power, for benefits...is that really how you should be approaching this?"

So, the idea is, we have to think this over and be faithful in our answer, both before ourselves, and before the Furies that are judging us. We should think not of power and benefits the choice will give us, but the wisdom in it that the Furies will judge.

The thing is, if I were to look at the problem at hand with all the honesty intended, I don't give a damn about the Furies.

These whiny, self-absorbed elementals had abandoned the orcs with no explanation, as soon as they felt "betrayed". And that, for a moment, happened before the Hand of Gul'dan and all the corruption of the elements that the eponymous grand warlock did. They got pissed off at the start of orc-draenei war, but, guess what, did not try to tell the orcs (at that moment, deceived by Kil'jaeden into thinking that they were doing the will of the ancestors) what exactly were they doing wrong, isolating themselves instead. Then, as Draenor shatters, with consequences for all of its inhabitants, they grow into further murderous rage, even blaming the Mag'har for the crimes of Gul'dan and the mistakes of Ner'zhul. And only after a confrontation of epic proportions, in which they STILL didn't understand why their rage was ill-turned, they have most graciously agreed to bring the Mag'har shamans back into fold. Except that the one orc they had a confrontation with, Jorin Deadeye, walked away knowing, that he doesn't need the approval of self-absorbed elementals to wield power for a good cause. And, in my humble opinion, Jorin was right.

I deny the Furies.

Why was the Path of the Blademaster even chosen for Dranosh, in this thread? To become closer to the elements? To go on another guilt-trip before the local Mini-Ragnaros? To have one more plate full of humble? Hmm... Well, what was the reasoning, eh?

Why, it was actually very simple. To get more power and might with the warrior prestige class. It wasn't enough for the readers to let Dranosh just stay a mighty warrior, like his father, and his grandfather before him. No, we needed to distance from them, and what's the better way of distancing, than the one that also delivers the hero more POWER!?

This path was taken with nothing, but a hunger for power. Trying to be humble now, before the arbitrary judges that think that being a part of Mag'har is not worth a damn, THAT is dishonesty. The base desire with this choice was about getting new abilities that would help Dranosh on his quest, not some backwards appeal to the judgment of elemental powers that think they know better than anyone. And now we try to play their game of "humbled and truthful before us", and outsmart them with more words about shame and heroic missions? My, what a trickster we're making Dranosh to be.

With all respect, @torroar , but I think that we shouldn't ignore what power we're trying to get. That's the reason we stand here.

We are not trying to become an Enhancement Shaman. Nor an Elementalist. We want Dranosh to be a Blademaster, and for a Blademaster, for what this path was taken for (you know, quick and fast in their fury, windwalking invisible, becoming a raging storm of wind, fire and blades, that kind of stuff) the elements that we need are FIRE and AIR.

Windwalk is something that makes Blademasters more effective than other martial classes of their league, so, in a choice between Fire and Air, I'll pick this:

[X] I am orc. Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind. I am no more. I am no less. For that is enough. (Air)

Honestly, and unapologetically, looking for 'power and benefits'. We're going to need those.

Fire is pretty good too, so if anyone wishes to convince me to change to that, feel free to. Picking Earth for an agile warrior is the strangest choice here, IMHO.

 

[Qeqre]

The possibility of an impossibility is 0%. They're still contained under the umbrella of Possibilities.

Click to shrink...

Something with a probability of 0% is indeed contained under the umbrella of possibilities.

Those weren't the impossibilities I was talking about though.

Like I said. Good news for your sanity.

Fair enough. I was saying that, of the four, Air seems the closest to void in this situation, though.

Click to shrink...

And I'm saying that it is most likely an illusion and that none of the choices represent void.

Except that implies that blood is something he's trying to move away from, as far as self-definition goes. This is contrary to the path that you suggest.

Click to shrink...

"We are the Blood of" - This is where I came from.

No implications on present or future, merely past.

And Dranosh acknowledges past shame does he not? Embraces it and strives to be better?

All the fire imagery in the world won't help change that. You could easily replace 'burn' with 'wash' or 'blown' and gently nudge the language around and the message will still hold for any of the other elements.

Click to shrink...

Than, what is fire to you?

What meaning has water?

What marks earth?

What symbolism does the wind hold?

The wind. Not the Void.

Because if you've abstracted to "it's just imagery and words" with air=void there's no use arguing as you've abstracted the choices to "correct" vs "incorrect" with only one choice being the right answer.

 

[torroar]

@torroar has said this: "Looking for power, for benefits...is that really how you should be approaching this?"

So, the idea is, we have to think this over and be faithful in our answer, both before ourselves, and before the Furies that are judging us. We should think not of power and benefits the choice will give us, but the wisdom in it that the Furies will judge.

The thing is, if I were to look at the problem at hand with all the honesty intended, I don't give a damn about the Furies.

This whiny, self-absorbed elementals had abandoned the orcs with no explanation, as soon as they felt "betrayed". And that, for a moment, happened before the Hand of Gul'dan and all the corruption of the elements that the eponymous grand warlock did. They got pissed off at the start of orc-draenei war, but, guess what, did not try to tell the orcs (at that moment, deceived by Kil'jaeden into thinking that they were doing the will of the ancestors) what exactly were they doing wrong, isolating themselves instead. Then, as Draenor shatters, with consequences for all of its inhabitants, they grow into further murderous rage, even blaming the Mag'har for the crimes of Gul'dan and the mistakes of Ner'zhul. And only after a confrontation of epic proportions, in which they STILL didn't understand why their rage was ill-turned, they have most graciously agreed to bring the Mag'har shamans back into fold. Except that the one orc they had a confrontation with, Jorin Deadeye, have walked away knowing, that he doesn't need the approval of self-absorbed elementals to wield power for a good cause. And, in my humble opinion, Jorin was right.

I deny the Furies.

Why was the Path of the Blademaster even chosen for Dranosh, in this thread? To become closer to the elements? To go on another guilt-trip before the local Mini-Ragnaros? To have one more plate full of humble? Hmm... Well, what was the reasoning, eh?

Why, it was actually very simple. To get more power and might with the warrior prestige class. It wasn't enough for the readers to let Dranosh just stay a mighty warrior, like his father, and his grandfather before him. No, we needed to distance from them, and what's the better way of distancing, than the one that also delivers the hero more POWER!?

This path was taken with nothing, but a hunger for power. Trying to be humble now, before the arbitrary judges that think that being a part of Mag'har is not worth a damn, THAT is dishonesty. The base desire with this choice was about getting new abilities that would help Dranosh on his quest, not some backwards appeal to the judgment of elemental powers that think they know better than anyone. And now we try to play their game of "humbled and truthful before us", and outsmart them with more words about shame and heroic missions? My, what a trickster we're making Dranosh to be.

With all respect, @torroar , but I think that we shouldn't ignore what power we're trying to get. That's the reason we stand here.

We are not trying to become an Enhancement Shaman. Nor an Elementalist. We want Dranosh to be a Blademaster, and for a Blademaster, for what this path was taken for (you know, quick and fast in their fury, windwalking invisible, becoming a raging storm of wind, fire and blades, that kind of stuff) the elements that we need are FIRE and AIR.

Windwalk is something that makes Blademasters more effective than other martial classes of their league, so, in a choice between Fire and Air, I'll pick this:

[X] I am orc. Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind. I am no more. I am no less. For that is enough. (Air)

Honestly, and unapologetically, looking for 'power and benefits'. We're going to need those.

Fire is pretty good too, so if anyone wishes to convince me to change to that, feel free to. Picking Earth for an agile warrior is the strangest choice here, IMHO.

Click to shrink...

S'all good. You sound like Jorin

 

[DragonParadox]

Well @Kir the Wizard convinced me.

All the guilt trips can get irritating.

[X] I am orc. Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind. I am no more. I am no less. For that is enough. (Air)

 

[torroar]

This is cool, I gotta say. Way more in depth discussion than I usually get in my quests.

 

[Daecl]

[X] I am orc. Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind. I am no more. I am no less. For that is enough. (Air)

 

[Mar]

[X] I am orc. Scion of Nagrand, Land of the Wind. I am no more. I am no less. For that is enough. (Air)
I think I'm going to change my vote over to Air as well

 

[Deathwings]

[X] I am unifier, the brother who seeks forgiveness and to heal the pains caused by my kind. (Water)

Acknowledge the sins of the past, seek redemption.

 

[DragonParadox]

Acknowledge the sins of the past, seek redemption.

Click to shrink...

Except they were not really the PC's sins now were they. This is about him not his people.