Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
Maybe, if combined with sabotage action to help make it so. I hope since they did advanced scouting the odds of success for that action is much better.
- Location
- USA
Probably next to impossible but I really want jojo to be able to enter the emerald dream. If only to see peoples reaction to a troll of all thing being there
Hmm, he might use the stuff the Hakkari gathered for a ritual to heal Ysera, that would get him an invitation afterwards. I suspect Malfurion would get along with him pretty well, once they get past the initial culture shock, although most other druids would probably have issues. Might be interesting if we find out about the War of Shifting Sands from them and have to vote on what we can send to help (although I believe that's well into the future, of course).
Something I'm really looking forward to in the future is the meeting on Zandalar, where all the trolls get together. We've been unable to make it before, so we are probably going to have the Amani and Drakkari making comments about that. The nice thing about being trolls is that we can punch them in the face for that, and there won't be political issues (they'd just punch back) as there would be with just about every other race.
Which is funny, since people call trolls uncivilized.
Agreed with everyone saying we should launch next turn instead of waiting for very last minute and letting the Hakkari build up the blood pools further.
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
Certainly not impossible if invited after Green Dragonflight after this.
Especially if we work hard on trying to heal Ysera at all if we can.
Xilentxium
Existential Crisis Management
- Location
- Temperate Regions
Always glad to see a Tor quest back up. Also I swear, Tor. If Jojo and Di'zo don't fight each other via posing then I will ddos a small kalimdorian village
It honestly seemed like such a plot hook that I would be insulted if we didn't at least try it.
I've got to say a part o me is annoyed that the answer to "What do the Hakkari have?" Is "Everything you do but better"
It feels like we're completely dependent on sheer dumb luck to win
It feels like we're completely dependent on sheer dumb luck to win
Actually, you'll note that I made no mention at all of a Beast Ward. They have the enslaved green dragons, but no proper Beast Ward to supplement their troops - all the animals in the Black Morass are fit solely for food or draining of blood to fill the pools for Hakkar. Additionally, they have Priests of Hakkar, not Priests of Bethekk, Shirvallah, Shadra, Hethiss, or Hir'eek. Different abilities and effects - stealth and poisons especially are not really in Hakkar's purview. For instance, Hakkar is, technically, capable of healing and such, but that generally involves blood not coming to him. So he is reluctant to do it. By comparison, the Gurubashi Loa are not so obstinate about such things. Plus, Crethekk. They also don't have Ettin auxilaries. And, definitely, have less fighters than you do pound for pound. They are insanely zealous, religious fanatics, but uh...so are the Gurubashi.
So 'everything you do but better' is just a...really not great reading of the situation.
So 'everything you do but better' is just a...really not great reading of the situation.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, they're a one trick pony who have to have everything go right for them, because if their One Neat Trick fails, that's it. It just looks scary because they've minmaxed their One Neat Trick and nothing's come along to hit them in the kneecaps yet.
Like, say, a fully combined arms force of very angry Trolls with a functioning economy, lots of magic, and an urge to kill you, specifically, attacking from across an angle you never really anticipated a full attack to come from.
Keep in mind, that angle should have been clear, the Ettins alone would discourage any serious incursion. They weren't expecting Jojo to literally bribe them to help him out, probably because they expected the Gurubashi to still be scrubbing in the mud instead of having largely seized control of the Vale with basic infrastructure coming up with increasing speed, even if they had the idea in the first place instead of going "TROLL SUPREMACY" and brute forcing it.
But Jojo made it work, because at every step of the game he's been working towards correcting the prior Empire's brainworms and arrogance, so he could afford a massive bribe, and he thought to offer it in the first place.
Like, say, a fully combined arms force of very angry Trolls with a functioning economy, lots of magic, and an urge to kill you, specifically, attacking from across an angle you never really anticipated a full attack to come from.
Keep in mind, that angle should have been clear, the Ettins alone would discourage any serious incursion. They weren't expecting Jojo to literally bribe them to help him out, probably because they expected the Gurubashi to still be scrubbing in the mud instead of having largely seized control of the Vale with basic infrastructure coming up with increasing speed, even if they had the idea in the first place instead of going "TROLL SUPREMACY" and brute forcing it.
But Jojo made it work, because at every step of the game he's been working towards correcting the prior Empire's brainworms and arrogance, so he could afford a massive bribe, and he thought to offer it in the first place.
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Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
I mean, it fits canonically and logically.
The Hakkari have had generations to build up their power again in a remote area since they were run out of Vale, while we have just gotta out of a generations long civil war and only building back up strength. Hakkar has been supporting them since their exile while the Loa only just came back to us.
Also, they don't have everything mate, they are pretty mono-focused all things considered.
Basically this, yes.
Point is, while they are tough we still have an edge over them and its only due to other factors at all that they have been able to enslave Green dragons.
- Location
- his hidden lair
I think the real funny thing is if we survive this, the Ettins as a force are liable to be gutted, the Black Morass will be largely unclaimed, and we'll want to establish a site to watch over for any signs of Hakkar anyways so we might settle the region pretty soon if we succeed in defeating the Hakkari without gutting our empire.
- Location
- barking
they have blood dire trolls, blood golems and green dragons driven mad and zio. we have dire trolls, we have followers (or whatever they are) of bwonsamedi, we have the high preists of the lao, beast, whatever we the tatoos on zuj are, ettins and maybe we can get the dragons involved, also maybe golems, and we are of course blessed by our 4 lao wait cant we summon the spider one I forget her name shadra or something
- Location
- Indiana, US
No dice, Amani have her booked for the immediate future. They've made enough offerings for long enough that she can't back out for the time being.
Fair but I'm still somewhat inclined to saying that eight Green Dragons, including the strongest one apart from Ysera, beats out a regular beast ward
Fair points, there are arguments to be made that the battle benefits of Hakkar outweigh the advantages of healing and poisons but that's a separate conversation
I'll be completely honest, it's been so long I remember nothing about Crethekk
They don't but they seemingly have a lot more Dire Trolls and golems if my reading is accurate
Fair enough, I may be being pessimistic I just don't fancy our chances when comparing things
Yeah but that one trick is pretty powerful just by itself and they have no shortage of other advantages
Eh, I'd hesitate to say we have the edge. They have answers to most of what we can bring to bear, in some cases just better versions of our own things, and a bunch of dragons which will be their own pains in the ass to deal with
- Location
- barking
damn it, cant she see hakkar followers are a much better food source then some weedy elves the amni are fighting /j
Baby Crocolisk Loa of Healing that the other Loa are wary of, for mysterious reasons.
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
We'll at least want to be very thorough in wrecking city/main temple to make sure nothing left of Hakkar worship is left, tracking down and killing/sacrificing all Hakkari we can find rather than send them into exile like last time since clearly that didn't work out.
I don't know about expanding into Morass, that is unlikely to be attractive idea compared to their home in Vale, but at least a guard force over former Hakkari site to make sure nothing else remains or springs up.
Either way, might give us a first look at Horde when they arrive later.
- Location
- his hidden lair
The Horde is over a hundred years away in the new timeline I'm pretty sure. And we definitely want to expand beyond the vale to stop human encroachment and settlement given we're right about the rise of Stormwind
If we want to be a relevant player than we need to have more than just the Vale under our belt. And we definitely want to be pretty swole when the First War potentially kicks off in 150+ years.
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- Location
- barking
just a quick thing if we take black morass the horde might start their attack from another loction since the gurdians might not be able to build so close to troll land so medivh would have to open the portal elsewhere
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Well the Vale is very rich in terms of just about every resource. The problem is that we need to really improve our control etc over it for proper exploitation of it along with the population to do so.
Because at the moment all the Gurubashi can easily fit into a corner of Zul'Gurub with plenty of room to spare.
I suspect that after we deal with Hakkar we'll have having some time-skips (years or decades scale) where we direct the more general growth of the Empire instead of the more detailed methods we've been using.
Overall, the Hakkari are, in their current state, a mixture of both Alpha Strike Offense and Attrition Grind Defense as a force. They excel in both, but much like a diamond, do possess a fractural issue.
In terms of Alpha Strike Offense, they can bleed themselves or prepared bodies of beasts/prisoners/etc. thus sacrifice blood to Hakkar to get short-term large boosts which can empower their bodies/strength/speed. Sort of the Hakkar-flavor version of the Bloodlust spell thing which the Bloodscalps mastered and you've worked on the tattoos for. But instead of drawing in strength from outside spirits and flowing them through the body to magnify muscles and blood vessels and what not, enchanting and empowering but then leaving you, the Hakkar one is sort of a blast of illegal steroids. The former is more sustainable and can be channeled more semi-regularly, supported with supplementary Loa aid and empowerment due to things being shared amongst the Greater Gurubashi Loa and Crethekk + minor healing spirits, the latter is not. Because Hakkar is a jealous bastard, and also just a jerk. But usually, the sheer level of Bloodlust/Bloodboosting in general from Hakkar lets them cause absolute carnage in the initial rounds, and if they spill enough blood doing so, it forms a good feedback loop of feeding Hakkar who will then channel a bit of that new strength into hisslaves followers.
However.
If the Hakkari don't absolutely overwhelm in their first strike, and end up running into a comprehensive defense, it blunts them and reverses that feedback loop. Because Hakkar doesn't stop wanting blood just because the Hakkari aren't winning. If they're bleedin', he's feedin'. Which means that they start getting less gain and more drain from their chosen master. Goes badly in the long run.
Now, on the other time, Attrition Grind Defense, when they are the ones behind prepared defensive lines, they get to be the ones benefitting from the enemy coming at them and bleeding all over the place and empowering them without them having to bleed overmuch in return. This means that the better their defense, the more concentrated and hardened, the better, because that means that much more bleeding on the part of the enemy. Which, in turn, makes the Hakkari defenses grow ever stronger as they defeat the enemy attacks. Which means that in the long term, this can result in a practically invincible defense that is continually healing and growing stronger with each failed enemy attack. While also contributing to their Ultimate army ability: Summoning Hakkar.
And yet!
Ironically, the weakness of the Attrition Grind Defense is the Hakkari's main way of offense: Alpha Strike. If you can break through their prepared defenses with a strong enough force with enough power behind it, they literally can't 'spin up' the same level of slow but steady stacking empowerment. They start suffering from Hakkar Hunger attrition because they're bleeding all over the place as they try to defend. Yes, they will benefit from any enemy casualties, but if they can't build up stacks of empowerment without suffering their own attrition, they'll continually start rolling back. Historically, this is shown through how they were defeated the first time around. The Zandalari showed up with a magnitude of force and strength that let them batter their way through to Hakkar in the center of the city and blast them out.
At the moment, you know that the Hakkari are based across the northern Black Morass, and have concentrated their main defenses at their new city and temple of Atal'Hakkar, and at the western border of the Black Morass and Brightwood. You know that they are preparing to summon Hakkar once more, currently on a slow burn. You, as the Gurubashi, know that it is likely that if you push them massively hard enough, they might start rapidly self-cannibalizing their own troops in order to try and speed up the summoning of Hakkar, empowering remaining elites, etc. But at the same time, that will negatively affect them significantly as much as it will help in other sectors.
Is it possible for Hakkar and the Hakkari to win? Sure. And after he eats all the Gurubashi and drains the southern Eastern Kingdoms of life, an angry Aegwynn will then likely show up and wipe him from existence. And then the quest will be fully over.
But, as I've noted repeatedly in my DoDA thread, I don't throw 100% impossible scenarios at players. In which I mean with player decisions and choices, victory is possible. Rolls are rolls, but bonuses and success thresholds change with circumstances, which can be heavily influenced by player choices and things like that.
Will you lose? Maybe. Will you win? Maybe.
The maybe is the important part.
In terms of Alpha Strike Offense, they can bleed themselves or prepared bodies of beasts/prisoners/etc. thus sacrifice blood to Hakkar to get short-term large boosts which can empower their bodies/strength/speed. Sort of the Hakkar-flavor version of the Bloodlust spell thing which the Bloodscalps mastered and you've worked on the tattoos for. But instead of drawing in strength from outside spirits and flowing them through the body to magnify muscles and blood vessels and what not, enchanting and empowering but then leaving you, the Hakkar one is sort of a blast of illegal steroids. The former is more sustainable and can be channeled more semi-regularly, supported with supplementary Loa aid and empowerment due to things being shared amongst the Greater Gurubashi Loa and Crethekk + minor healing spirits, the latter is not. Because Hakkar is a jealous bastard, and also just a jerk. But usually, the sheer level of Bloodlust/Bloodboosting in general from Hakkar lets them cause absolute carnage in the initial rounds, and if they spill enough blood doing so, it forms a good feedback loop of feeding Hakkar who will then channel a bit of that new strength into his
However.
If the Hakkari don't absolutely overwhelm in their first strike, and end up running into a comprehensive defense, it blunts them and reverses that feedback loop. Because Hakkar doesn't stop wanting blood just because the Hakkari aren't winning. If they're bleedin', he's feedin'. Which means that they start getting less gain and more drain from their chosen master. Goes badly in the long run.
Now, on the other time, Attrition Grind Defense, when they are the ones behind prepared defensive lines, they get to be the ones benefitting from the enemy coming at them and bleeding all over the place and empowering them without them having to bleed overmuch in return. This means that the better their defense, the more concentrated and hardened, the better, because that means that much more bleeding on the part of the enemy. Which, in turn, makes the Hakkari defenses grow ever stronger as they defeat the enemy attacks. Which means that in the long term, this can result in a practically invincible defense that is continually healing and growing stronger with each failed enemy attack. While also contributing to their Ultimate army ability: Summoning Hakkar.
And yet!
Ironically, the weakness of the Attrition Grind Defense is the Hakkari's main way of offense: Alpha Strike. If you can break through their prepared defenses with a strong enough force with enough power behind it, they literally can't 'spin up' the same level of slow but steady stacking empowerment. They start suffering from Hakkar Hunger attrition because they're bleeding all over the place as they try to defend. Yes, they will benefit from any enemy casualties, but if they can't build up stacks of empowerment without suffering their own attrition, they'll continually start rolling back. Historically, this is shown through how they were defeated the first time around. The Zandalari showed up with a magnitude of force and strength that let them batter their way through to Hakkar in the center of the city and blast them out.
At the moment, you know that the Hakkari are based across the northern Black Morass, and have concentrated their main defenses at their new city and temple of Atal'Hakkar, and at the western border of the Black Morass and Brightwood. You know that they are preparing to summon Hakkar once more, currently on a slow burn. You, as the Gurubashi, know that it is likely that if you push them massively hard enough, they might start rapidly self-cannibalizing their own troops in order to try and speed up the summoning of Hakkar, empowering remaining elites, etc. But at the same time, that will negatively affect them significantly as much as it will help in other sectors.
Is it possible for Hakkar and the Hakkari to win? Sure. And after he eats all the Gurubashi and drains the southern Eastern Kingdoms of life, an angry Aegwynn will then likely show up and wipe him from existence. And then the quest will be fully over.
But, as I've noted repeatedly in my DoDA thread, I don't throw 100% impossible scenarios at players. In which I mean with player decisions and choices, victory is possible. Rolls are rolls, but bonuses and success thresholds change with circumstances, which can be heavily influenced by player choices and things like that.
Will you lose? Maybe. Will you win? Maybe.
The maybe is the important part.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
She strikes me as some kind of Ammit equivalent, a god who devours the unrighteous dead. Just that she ended up Going Too Far and getting stripped of her power and station, but a vestige remained and is sort of congealing as a sort of Spirit of Healing or something due to the Gurubashi's interpretation of her.
But we got a spark of what she Used To Be a while back while meditating on "How the fuck do we beat Hakkar once and for all anyway", and she was all "When you've got him by the throat, just fucking eat him OK?"
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How long do Warcraft Trolls live, anyways? Sorry if this was answered already, I genuinely don't remember it if that is the case.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
"Until they're killed" more or less. They're like Elves that way.
Of course, they have enough instinctual understanding that this kind of thing is unsustainable in the long run that they usually just set down their burdens and join the Loa eventually, but a Troll can live for a very long-ass time if they have to.
- Location
- barking
depends on the troll I think after all king rasitkan was over 200 by the time of bfa