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Warcraft: Fallen Kingdoms (Old)

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I was pretty sure it was both Trolls and Goblins that provided the horde its ships.

The troll got their hunting boats that shoot arrows and goblins provided them with the dreadnaughts ships.
 
Restalaan said:
I was pretty sure it was both Trolls and Goblins that provided the horde its ships.

The troll got their hunting boats that shoot arrows and goblins provided them with the dreadnaughts ships.
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The Warcraft 2 Horde ships are called Oil Tankers, Orc Transports, Troll Destroyers, Ogre Juggernaut and Giant Turtle.

With Goblin units being the Sappers, Zeppelins and the Turtles.

Though the Juggernaut is Goblin-designed.

There was a fleet launched that started from the ruins of Stormwind but the Troll/Elf Destroyers are the fastest combat vessels.
 
Xkeizer said:
I'm pretty sure he headed straight for Kalimdor, not much we can do about that. And even if it is him, this the man who let his daughter have no say in what was going on and decided to basically usurp of Theramore from her for his campaign of revenge the moment he discovered the orcs were rebuilding on Kalimdor.
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To be fair hate and a desire for revenge can blind a person to alot of things. I honestly couldn't say how I would react if the people who had killed my kid got away.
 
Qeqre said:
They provided most of the Horde's navy during the second war IIRC.

At the very least, Zul'Aman should have the infrastructure to maintain a fleet.
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Exactly. Zul'jin's Troll Destroyers also featured in the relatively recent "Blood of the Higborne" novella.

That map, however, is all sorts of incorrect. From the weird shapes of Zul'Aman and Alterac, to the fact that Northeron IS (northern) Twilight Highlands, rather than that mini-zone between Stratholme and Hearthglen.
 
Kir the Wizard said:
That map, however, is all sorts of incorrect. From the weird shapes of Zul'Aman and Alterac, to the fact that Northeron IS (northern) Twilight Highlands, rather than that mini-zone between Stratholme and Hearthglen.
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Warcraft maps have never been internally consistent.


Note how Darrowmere Lake originates from the lake north of Zul'Aman and Hearthglen is roughly South-southeast of Stratholme.

The map you call "incorrect" (if I'm remembering correctly) was used for Warcraft 2.
 
@Qeqre Yeah, they really are inconsistent, aren't they? :D That map just isn't viable at all compared to WoW... It almost completely removes the Plaguelands as we know them to be.
 
Qeqre said:
Warcraft maps have never been internally consistent.

The map you call "incorrect" (if I'm remembering correctly) was used for Warcraft 2.
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Comrade, I know all about Warcraft maps. But Warcraft 2 never tried to make a political map, like here. And certainly didn't try to somehow fit the shape of the Zul'Aman Instance in WoW (which corresponds to, what, one big palace grounds?) to Zul'Aman the region, the shape of which was pretty damn consistent.

If you want a lore-consistent oldschool-style political map for the Eastern Kingdoms, I'd suggest this, from this fine gentleman:
 
Kir the Wizard said:
Comrade, I know all about Warcraft maps. But Warcraft 2 never tried to make a political map, like here. And certainly didn't try to somehow fit the shape of the Zul'Aman Instance in WoW (which corresponds to, what, one big palace grounds?) to Zul'Aman the region, the shape of which was pretty damn consistent.

If you want a lore-consistent oldschool-style political map for the Eastern Kingdoms, I'd suggest this, from this fine gentleman:
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Man, the map I used has been up on Wowwiki for almost a decade.

That map you're showing? Is by the author's own admission his own take because he thinks that the Tides of Darkness Novel basically invalidates half of the lore.

The problem however? Is that the Lore has been inconsistent for much longer.

As such, the map you're showing is very likely to have incorporated more retcons than the map I showed.

Not to say either map is any more or less 'official' than the other(if mine isn't, both are fanart). Just that mine is older.

It's a nice map though.
 
The Stormbringer said:
@Kir the Wizard

That map does seem to miss some areas, of course. Like for example, the Scarlet Enclave and a few other spots. That said, it's not bad.
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That's because it's based on the "classic", pre-WoW map for the Eastern Kingdoms. Notice the town of Tyr's Bay, from WC2? Notice where the author put the Scarlet Enclave's towns, like Avalon?

And also, look at the shape of Gilneas. That's how it looked pre-WoW, and Marthen STILL managed to keep it somehow in line with modern portrayal, only moving Duskhaven further south.

Qeqre said:
Man, the map I used has been up on Wowwiki for almost a decade.

That map you're showing? Is by the author's own admission his own take because he thinks that the Tides of Darkness Novel basically invalidates half of the lore.

The problem however? Is that the Lore has been inconsistent for much longer.

As such, the map you're showing is very likely to have incorporated more retcons than the map I showed.

Not to say either map is any more or less 'official' than the other(if mine isn't, both are fanart). Just that mine is older.

It's a nice map though.
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Both are based on the "classic" map of the Eastern Kingdoms, which was first made for WC2 and finalized for WC3 (you can see it in manual and on two specific loading screens). It was never used in WoW, which instead made a smoother, but much smaller map.

The map you've shown was seemingly remade during Cataclysm (Twilight Highlands instead of Grim Batol Region, as it was known before), however, it also includes WoW's almost square-like shape of Zul'Aman Instance that sticks like a sore thumb (despite not actually doing that on WoW map), and also for some reason uses the name "Northeron" for the northern part of Lordaeron. This is complete fanon: WC2's Northeron was today's Hinterlands. In Cataclysm, Blizz decided that the Wildhammer Dwarves need another region of their own, so now the Hinterlands are the Hinterlands, and the (northern) Twilight Highlands is Northeron. Whoever was making this map missed that, and just slapped on their own fanon. That's in no way official.

Marthen's idea is to make a "full, uncut" Second War timeline, while also keeping the lore we got from WoW and the books (like, which realm ruled which lands and towns) afloat. Basically, unretcon all Second War material and make sure it fits. The Novelization of TOD, which minimized the length of the Second War and the whole idea of the Horde's war effort (trolls afraid of water, unarmed orcish fleet, NO orcish victories at all) for the sake of establishing character heroism. A lot of people feel like this is a rather unfaithful portrayal of the world depicted in WC2.
 
Kir the Wizard said:
Both are based on the "classic" map of the Eastern Kingdoms, which was first made for WC2 and finalized for WC3 (you can see it in manual and on two specific loading screens). It was never used in WoW, which instead made a smoother, but much smaller map.
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Lot of things that the fans wanted didn't get incorporated in WoW. Personally, I blame the Vivendi merger/takeover(and to an extent, time constraints and whining fans) as the point where they truly started jumping the shark.

Kir the Wizard said:
The map you've shown was seemingly remade during Cataclysm (Twilight Highlands instead of Grim Batol Region, as it was known before), however, it also includes WoW's almost square-like shape of Zul'Aman Instance that sticks like a sore thumb (despite not actually doing that on WoW map), and also for some reason uses the name "Northeron" for the northern part of Lordaeron. This is complete fanon: WC2's Northeron was today's Hinterlands. In Cataclysm, Blizz decided that the Wildhammer Dwarves need another region of their own, so now the Hinterlands are the Hinterlands, and the (northern) Twilight Highlands is Northeron. Whoever was making this map missed that, and just slapped on their own fanon. That's in no way official.
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Yes. However Northeron being Northern Lordaeron was a common fan theory pre-cataclysm. Call it lazy of them when they didn't re-write it if you want. The general shape of the map has remained unchanged for a longass time.

As for the square-shape of the Zul'Aman instance? What in the blazes are you talking about? I'm not seeing any instance there, or implications on the location of its cities even. Just something that looks like it aims for compatibility with the Warcraft 3 maps.

I'm not claiming the map I use is official. But neither is yours, no matter how much you may or may not like Marthen's fanart and theories.
 
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Look at the WC3 world map and see how Q'T and Zul'Aman looks there. Whatever is done here has nothing to do with it, and resembles the inclusion of theshape of ZA instance map on world map, I've seen a similar design decision in Leviathon's map, for example.
Northeron NOT being 'Northern Lordaeron' has nothing to do with blizz laziness, but with the fans' lack of research. The Northeronof WC2 was whatis now the Hinterlands, end of story.
 
Voting Closed.

[X]Fight in the Farmlands
No. of votes: 1
Zoxabels
[X]Fight on the Beach
No. of votes: 1
The king Chad
[X]Fight on the Beach
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
-[X] Bring flaming arrows and jars of pitch to set the ships alight if possible.
-[X] Maxwell will accompany the army in case the unidentified group seeks something else than war/raiding.
No. of votes: 3
Derek58, daemonkeeper, LokiTheDarkGod
[X]Fight on the Beach
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
No. of votes: 1
Sinsystems
[X] Assemble our forces in the Farmlands, but send a scouting party to the beach. These may not be enemies, and we don't want to start a fight until we know who or what we're dealing with. For all we know, these ships could have come from Dalaran or another allied power.
No. of votes: 1
Finagle007
[X] Assemble our forces in the Farmlands, but send a scouting party to the beach.
No. of votes: 1
Crowhunter
[X]Fight on the Beach
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Bring flaming arrows and jars of pitch to set the ships alight if possible.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
-[X] Maxwell will accompany the army in case the unidentified group seeks something else than war/raiding.
No. of votes: 11
Silveraith, Versharl, Darkcrest, HanEmpire, Qeqre, Restalaan, Razor One, x2ero, Yun, Icefyre, The Stormbringer
[X]Fight on the Beach
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
-[X] Bring flaming arrows and jars of pitch to set the ships alight if possible.
-[X] Maxwell will accompany the army in case the unidentified group seeks something else than war/raiding.
-[X] Mounted knights should take cover behind cliffs, or patches of green if there are any at the chokepoint between the beach and the farmland - one way or another, try to hide their presence in the rear somewhat.
-[X] In case the melee warriors have to fall back to the farmlands, the knights are to wait for the enemy force to pursue our warriors, then flank the enemy from both sides (IIUC, north and south, in relation to the eastward beaches)
No. of votes: 1
Kir the Wizard
 
So an interesting and relevant thing just appeared in the Legion Alpha.
Specifically that Calia Menethil is alive, she is part of the priest artifact quest chain. Just thought that it would be relevant here as if this continues we can have a bit for finding her.
 
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From the Sea - Part 2
  • Threadmarks
    • Interlude

    From the Sea – Part 2

    Even with the time it had taken to arrange the army, the ships were still some time away. You and the rest of the military commanders were situated behind the army, planning and issuing orders, the only exception being Maxwell, who was accompanying the army incase diplomacy was possible.

    At the moment Saidan was speaking and while you were listening to him you couldn't help but feel like you had forgotten something, it was only when Saidan mentioned landing that you remembered that it was an possibility that the ships had cannons and would bombard the troops you had stationed on the beach or the cliffs, but before you had a chance to speak up you were interrupted by a messenger from one of the lookouts.

    "Flags have been spotted on the ships, we have confirmed sightings of both Kul Tiras and Stormwind emblems."

    Acting quickly you first dismiss the messenger and then you start to issue orders.

    "Pull back the soldiers on the beach, have them take position on the top of the hills leading down to the beach and send a message to Maxwell, he is to meet the leader of the ships and bring him here."

    Around half an hour later the ships stops and lets down a few row boats who starts to row towards the beach where Maxwell is waiting, it takes a few more minutes before the delegation arrives at the command camp.

    The first one you recognize is the diplomat you sent those many months ago, you don´t remember his first name but you are certain that his last name was Crowley, the next two you look over you presume to be the leaders of the delegation that has come, both of them are wearing tabards, one having the Stormwind emblem and the other the Kul Tiras emblem.

    Studying their faces you don´t recognize the man in the Kul Tiras tabard, but you do know the man wearing the Stormwind tabard, Bolvar Fordragon, you met him when you visited Stormwind in the past.

    When they finally stand in front of you, Crowley introduces them.

    "Greetings, Your Majesty, may I introduce you to Highlord Bolvar Fordragon of Stormwind and Admiral Barean Westwind of Kul Tiras" Both of them greet you respectfully. "They have come here to assess our situation and dispel any doubt of your survival."

    Bolvar takes advantage of the pause and speaks up.

    "Yes, unfortunately there are does that doubt the legitimacy of your organization, it doesn´t help that the information we got from the refugees fleeing to us indicate that you were in the throne room when your father was killed and the Capital overrun by the Scourge, that has led many believe that the Scarlet Crusade is just using your name, I was sent by the King to find out the truth."

    "It is the same for me, the Lord Admiral wanted to make sure that Crowley was telling the truth, we already sent ships looking for survivors on the eastern coast, but all we found was the undead, we had given up hope that there were any more survivors, but we will need to know what has been going on since Crowley was sent to us before we can pledge any support."

    You take a moment to gather your thoughts before beginning your tale.

    Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    []Yes

    []No

    []Write-in

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    []Both

    []High Elves only

    []Blood Elves only

    []No

    []Write-in

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    []Yes

    []No

    []Write-in

    What else do you want to tell them?

    []Write-in
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    [X]Yes

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    [X]Both

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    [X]Yes

    Lets be open with our 'allies' we gain nothing from hiding this from them and they'll be pissed when they find out.
     
    Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    [X] Yes

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    [X] Both

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    [X] Yes
     
    Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    [X]Yes

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    [X]Both

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    [X]Yes

    There's no reason to hide anything from these people.
     
    I think we should give full disclosure, I don't know about Westwind, but Bolvar Fordragon is Bolvar ****ing Fordragon. That dude is as legit and honorable as they come. Before the fall of Lordaron we were all allies, and there isnt any good reason we should deny the other human kingdoms accurate information on the state of the undead. Additionally we need to angle things that's going to make potential enemies into allies.


    Particularly about the blood elves, high elves and forsaken. Especially the blood elves, no point in giving them the opportunity to twist Stormwind and Kul Tiras's opinion again'st us.

    Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    [X]Yes

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    [X]Both

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    [X]Yes

    There's no reason to hide anything from these people.
     
    Will you tell them what you found concerning the Scourge?

    [X] Yes

    Will you tell them about the Blood Elves and/or High Elves?

    [X] Both

    Will you tell them about the Forsaken?

    [X] Yes

    I sure hope Admiral Westwind isn't possessed by a dreadlord yet.
     
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