Finagle007
[Verified Great Old One]
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Legion beats phalanx.
Warcraft: Fallen Kingdoms (Old)
- Thread starter Genezz
- Start date
Legion beats phalanx.
Due to better flexibility in the formation(can reform to the terrain better and swap out tired soldiers).
For stopping large numbers of bodies from breaching chokepoints and/or on open fields where our flanking force is stronger? Spears are good. For the role currently taken by our defenders(so I'm not sure if pikes would be optimal, one-handed spears combined with shields might work better vs archers).
Voting Closed.
[X] For the population, that these Forsaken have shown us that with enough willpower you can be freed of The Lich King's control but controlled undead may use this to try and infiltrate them so any undead are still a great risk to all living and you are still not cured of the scourge, meaning you are still damned and can infect others if not careful.
[X] Wary until they have been proven to truly be forsaken, then they can be neutral and even then try and keep their distance, but never outright hostile, unless they are seen attacking refugees.
[X] For the Forsaken that were once the people of our kingdom, for that single fact they deserve our pity and mercy for their condition, but the goal of the crusade is to eradicate all the undead, meaning that before The Lich King has been slain and the scourge destroyed, assuming the crusade does not have a cure for the scourge, we will grant them the right to exist and oppose The Lich king until he is dead or they are proven to be just as evil as the scourge. After the destruction of the scourge or we have devised a cure for it, they shall be banished somewhere where they cant do no harm or if they so wish granted the final gift of true death or the cure if we have it.
No. of votes: 2
Delwgun, Loktarogar
[X] The Crusade has encountered Undead that are supposedly free of the Lich King's control. Treat with extreme caution and do not initiate contact until further information has been acquired.
[X] Do not initiate hostilities unless deemed necessary for the success of local missions. Any division amongst the undead would be ideal for the crusade. Protect the refuges from all undead threats.
[X] Do not cooperate with the forsaken unless deemed vital by a person of senior leadership position in the Scarlet Crusade. Further information of those forsaken is needed.
No. of votes: 12
Finagle007, Icefyre, The king Chad, etincelle047, Zoxabels, Crowhunter, Vilegrave, Yun, LokiTheDarkGod, Silveraith, kitsune9, Restalaan
[X] For the population, that these Forsaken have shown us that with enough willpower you can be freed of The Lich King's control but controlled undead may use this to try and infiltrate them so any undead are still a great risk to all living and you are still not cured of the scourge, meaning you are still damned and can infect others if not careful.
[X] Wary until they have been proven to truly be forsaken, then they can be neutral and even then try and keep their distance, but never outright hostile, unless they are seen attacking refugees.
[X] For the Forsaken that were once the people of our kingdom, for that single fact they deserve our pity and mercy for their condition, but the goal of the crusade is to eradicate all the undead, meaning that before The Lich King has been slain and the scourge destroyed, assuming the crusade does not have a cure for the scourge, we will grant them the right to exist and oppose The Lich king until he is dead or they are proven to be just as evil as the scourge. After the destruction of the scourge or we have devised a cure for it, they shall be banished somewhere where they cant do no harm or if they so wish granted the final gift of true death or the cure if we have it.
No. of votes: 2
Delwgun, Loktarogar
[X] The Crusade has encountered Undead that are supposedly free of the Lich King's control. Treat with extreme caution and do not initiate contact until further information has been acquired.
[X] Do not initiate hostilities unless deemed necessary for the success of local missions. Any division amongst the undead would be ideal for the crusade. Protect the refuges from all undead threats.
[X] Do not cooperate with the forsaken unless deemed vital by a person of senior leadership position in the Scarlet Crusade. Further information of those forsaken is needed.
No. of votes: 12
Finagle007, Icefyre, The king Chad, etincelle047, Zoxabels, Crowhunter, Vilegrave, Yun, LokiTheDarkGod, Silveraith, kitsune9, Restalaan
I was actually considering both, at the same time even. A manipular system with shields and one handed spears that are light and easy to weild, but just long enough for the man behind you to get a dig in too, making it as if you were fighting two men instead of one (or three or four if gaps appear in their line), increasing the 'surface area' of the 'reaction' so to speak.
I thought that might be a bit too ambitious at this point in time though, given limited training times and potential administrative complexity. A wall of pikes is also good against superheavies too, so its not just a tradeoff of expedients.
Maybe that can be the development track for the crusader units instead.
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- Location
- California, USA
I can't remember any factions that use/practice spear using warfare in Warcraft.
After looking at some Scarlet Crusade art, I will say that the faction's mix of red, white, and gold is pretty boss.
After looking at some Scarlet Crusade art, I will say that the faction's mix of red, white, and gold is pretty boss.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Of course. You wouldn't expect a royal with 30 Diplomacy to have a poor fashion taste, would you?
and mages beat concentrated troops
One handed spears should be long enough for two ranks(possibly 3) unless the anti-abomination spear modifications seriously impacted their weight distribution.
The problem is that 1h spears at the front and pikes at the back would make the phalanx even less flexible since the frontline can't serve as a backline(spears too short) and the backline lacks the advantage of the frontline(good shields) so reorienting would be impossible(especially since the backline lacks the shields to swap out the pikemen for spearmen).
One or the other is fine, both is a bad idea for anything except maybe our center.
We have archers that can run almost as fast as cavalry to deal with those.
It was 'shields and spears with manipular (ie, legionary) tactics' (hence the quotation of both), not 'spears plus pikes'.
Combined arms with pike formations is not unheard of though; one of the most reliable methods for breaking up a formation of pikes (besides having enough arrows king of heroes) is dismounted knights. The heads have difficulty finding purchase on the full plate, so they can wade through the forest, while their two handed weapons can smash through the formation. As consequence, you would sometimes have a contingent of your own knights interspersed throughout the formation, to meet anyone that breaks through.
Incidentally, i've recently been rereading my old copy of 'The Dynamics of Military Revolution', the section on the English in particular. Paid professional longbow men were a feature in English armies for a long time without any notable difference. Particularly, Edward the second in the early 14th century had many such men under commissions of array, and he presided over a number of embarassing defeats at the hands of the scottish; Bannockburn being a significant example.
Rather, it was under Edward the thirds reign that differences began to be seen. A big factor in the success of his adventures through France in the hundred years war was his use of 'dupplin tactics' (so named after the battle of duplin moor in 1332, whered edward with 1,500 troops managed to best 15,000 Scots).
Briefly, dupplin tactics basically consists of a main line of pikemen that 'fix' the enemy in place, while archers run up the flanks to loose arrows into the exposed sides. This is reminiscent of Alexanders own tactics of using cavalry to encircle enemies fixed on his pikes (or to run down enemy archers trying to snipe at his own formations), each invoking the basic principle of hammer and anvil infantry strategy.
Combined arms with pike formations is not unheard of though; one of the most reliable methods for breaking up a formation of pikes (besides having enough arrows king of heroes) is dismounted knights. The heads have difficulty finding purchase on the full plate, so they can wade through the forest, while their two handed weapons can smash through the formation. As consequence, you would sometimes have a contingent of your own knights interspersed throughout the formation, to meet anyone that breaks through.
Incidentally, i've recently been rereading my old copy of 'The Dynamics of Military Revolution', the section on the English in particular. Paid professional longbow men were a feature in English armies for a long time without any notable difference. Particularly, Edward the second in the early 14th century had many such men under commissions of array, and he presided over a number of embarassing defeats at the hands of the scottish; Bannockburn being a significant example.
Rather, it was under Edward the thirds reign that differences began to be seen. A big factor in the success of his adventures through France in the hundred years war was his use of 'dupplin tactics' (so named after the battle of duplin moor in 1332, whered edward with 1,500 troops managed to best 15,000 Scots).
Briefly, dupplin tactics basically consists of a main line of pikemen that 'fix' the enemy in place, while archers run up the flanks to loose arrows into the exposed sides. This is reminiscent of Alexanders own tactics of using cavalry to encircle enemies fixed on his pikes (or to run down enemy archers trying to snipe at his own formations), each invoking the basic principle of hammer and anvil infantry strategy.
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Fair enough.
Though I should note that early manipular legions were exactly that. Spears and Shields. The Gladius came into use* somewhere during the second punic war and was phased out in favour of spears again when the Huns/Goths started migrating.
So really, you're just adopting the early manipular system.
Edit: For the melee infantry that is... /endEdit
*For the first two lines of the legion anyway. I don't think the Triarii ever ditched the spear...
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*facepalm*
The Marian reforms were a shift in how the armies were organized(A cohort basically being a self-contained army of 480 men, ten of which formed a legion), where the troops were recruited from(removed the need to be a landowner), how they were paid and formalized the state as the one responsible for equipping them. They didn't do very much to change the equipment(aside from the bulk-purchases making them slightly more standardized and she shift from bending pila to breaking pila).
Post-Marian infantry generally had two Javelins issued per soldier, one of which was larger and heavier by design so it could function as a melee weapon, turning the legionary into an impromptu spearman. So they didn't really ditch the spears and (arguably) they didn't ditch the Triarii/Principes/Hastati(they ditched the distinction, with the most veteran troops just moving towards the 1st cohort instead of moving towards the Triarii). They did armour of the Velites(which was a big change that arguably removed them as a distinct unit type).
Basically the Marius reforms changed how they structured the troop types rather than being a change in the troop types themselves(aside from the velites and naming conventions).
Redlined some important bits.
1.Yes, the naming convention got changed, yes the class/veterancy promotion shifted from Hastati-Principes-Triarii to the 10th-9th-8th-etcetera cohort promotion that's not the point.
The point I was trying to make was that one of the two Marian reform javelins issued to the average soldier was good enough to use in melee. The segments of Cohorts drawn from the Triarii never ditched a workable spear from their equipment list(rather, the equipment requirement of "full gear" got added for everybody else.
cohort
Essentially? A cohort was a miniature maniple army with the Velites armoured and integrated in the core and the soldiers no longer paying for their own equipment.
2. They ditched(changed name/formation of really) the distinction.
10th Cohort was the new meat of the Legion(instead of the Hastati) or at least the lower ranking ones. 1st were the veterans(instead of the Triarii), or at least the higher ranking ones. The Marian reforms meant that the equipment had to be provided by the leadership but the soldiers filling the same function as the Triarii(that is to say, the veterans/backbone) kept the spear on their equipment list(and said equipment list remained mostly unchanged by the Marian reforms, the burden of arming the troops just got formalized to the state/general).
Granted, it became somewhat more situational in usage due to adaptation to what front they fought on but the post-Marian reform Roman army arguably had more trained spear wielders than the late pre-Marian reform Roman army(or the Polybian system if you will).
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Dead and Alive – End
Interlude
Dead and Alive – End
It had taken hours of discussing but you have finally decided on what to do.
"Saidan, I want you to inform the officers we have in the city of our stance on the Forsaken, Alexandros send out messengers to our outposts and patrols, they are not to attack the Forsaken unless it is deemed necessary by the local leader to complete their mission or to protect Refugees, they are also not to cooperate with them unless deemed necessary by an officer with the rank of Captain or higher. Invar, find out more information about the Forsaken, we will need it regardless of what our future relation with them is. Any questions?"
Getting no answer you continue.
"In a few days I will hold a speech for the citizens regarding our discovery of the Forsaken, I will handle the preparations, but I want Maxwell and Isillien to go over the speech I will write. If there is nothing else anyone wants to discuss the meeting is over."
As there were nothing more to discuss, you all left to carry out your orders.
Dead and Alive – End
It had taken hours of discussing but you have finally decided on what to do.
"Saidan, I want you to inform the officers we have in the city of our stance on the Forsaken, Alexandros send out messengers to our outposts and patrols, they are not to attack the Forsaken unless it is deemed necessary by the local leader to complete their mission or to protect Refugees, they are also not to cooperate with them unless deemed necessary by an officer with the rank of Captain or higher. Invar, find out more information about the Forsaken, we will need it regardless of what our future relation with them is. Any questions?"
Getting no answer you continue.
"In a few days I will hold a speech for the citizens regarding our discovery of the Forsaken, I will handle the preparations, but I want Maxwell and Isillien to go over the speech I will write. If there is nothing else anyone wants to discuss the meeting is over."
As there were nothing more to discuss, you all left to carry out your orders.
From the Sea – Start
Interlude
From the Sea – Start
It is afternoon in the beginning of April when the alarm sounds, you quickly drop what you were doing and start to dress in your armor, while you are getting dressed both Brigitte and Lilian move to help you, seeing this you shake your head and speak to them.
"Lilian, you stay and help me, Brigitte, I want you to find out what is going on."
Brigitte nods and rush to fulfill your order, you are almost finished getting prepared when she returns.
"Ships spotted on the sea, the lookouts were unable to see a flag, their superior decided to raise the alarm in case of an attack."
You nod as you finish dressing and head towards the War room, arriving you see that Abbendis is already there, talking with the other officers that have arrived, they greet you as you enter but quickly get back to what they were doing, you listen in on their planning but you wait for Saidan and Alexandros to join you.
Once they have arrived Abbendis lays out what they have come up with.
"There are three battlefields that we can defend on, the Beach, the Farmlands, the Town and the City.
Fighting on the Beach would cause the least damage to our farms and other infrastructure, but it would be hard to fall back if needed and our Knights would not be very useful, at least not mounted, and depending on the state of the beach it could get hard for our soldiers to stand still or move around if the sand were to turn into mud.
The Farmlands would be the best option for a defensive fight while trying to keep our farms intact in my opinion, our knight would be effective and it would be easier for our troops to fall back if it came to that, it would also be easy for our troops to hold their position and not have to worry about losing their footing.
I would only recommend fighting in the Town if the enemy proves to be too much on the field or if they have an overwhelming number of soldiers and it would be foolish to try and take them straight on, but thanks to the fortification we built we have an advantage if they continue attacking us, but we would probably lose all the farms lying outside the Town.
If the worst happens and we lose the Town we can retreat into the City, but if that were to happen we would probably lose everything we have built in the Enclave."
Abbendis stops hunching over the plans made and straightens up.
"Now then, do any of you have a plan we could go with.
What is the plan?
[]Fight on the Beach
[]Fight in the Farmlands
[]Fight in the Town
[]Write-in
From the Sea – Start
It is afternoon in the beginning of April when the alarm sounds, you quickly drop what you were doing and start to dress in your armor, while you are getting dressed both Brigitte and Lilian move to help you, seeing this you shake your head and speak to them.
"Lilian, you stay and help me, Brigitte, I want you to find out what is going on."
Brigitte nods and rush to fulfill your order, you are almost finished getting prepared when she returns.
"Ships spotted on the sea, the lookouts were unable to see a flag, their superior decided to raise the alarm in case of an attack."
You nod as you finish dressing and head towards the War room, arriving you see that Abbendis is already there, talking with the other officers that have arrived, they greet you as you enter but quickly get back to what they were doing, you listen in on their planning but you wait for Saidan and Alexandros to join you.
Once they have arrived Abbendis lays out what they have come up with.
"There are three battlefields that we can defend on, the Beach, the Farmlands, the Town and the City.
Fighting on the Beach would cause the least damage to our farms and other infrastructure, but it would be hard to fall back if needed and our Knights would not be very useful, at least not mounted, and depending on the state of the beach it could get hard for our soldiers to stand still or move around if the sand were to turn into mud.
The Farmlands would be the best option for a defensive fight while trying to keep our farms intact in my opinion, our knight would be effective and it would be easier for our troops to fall back if it came to that, it would also be easy for our troops to hold their position and not have to worry about losing their footing.
I would only recommend fighting in the Town if the enemy proves to be too much on the field or if they have an overwhelming number of soldiers and it would be foolish to try and take them straight on, but thanks to the fortification we built we have an advantage if they continue attacking us, but we would probably lose all the farms lying outside the Town.
If the worst happens and we lose the Town we can retreat into the City, but if that were to happen we would probably lose everything we have built in the Enclave."
Abbendis stops hunching over the plans made and straightens up.
"Now then, do any of you have a plan we could go with.
What is the plan?
[]Fight on the Beach
[]Fight in the Farmlands
[]Fight in the Town
[]Write-in
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
- Location
- United States
[X]Fight on the Beach
Can't let them land unopposed, should they outnumber us by several factors preventing a beachhead will be our only shot
Can't let them land unopposed, should they outnumber us by several factors preventing a beachhead will be our only shot
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
[X]Fight on the Beach
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
-[X] Bring flaming arrows and jars of pitch to set the ships alight if possible.
-[X] Maxwell will accompany the army in case the unidentified group seeks something else than war/raiding.
-[X] Archers, Mages and the field ballista are to set up on the cliffs overlooking the beach, this should give them the ideal vantage point to rain death on our enemy.
-[X] Our Melee warriors are to form ranks and focus on preventing the enemy from establishing a beachhead.
-[X] Bring flaming arrows and jars of pitch to set the ships alight if possible.
-[X] Maxwell will accompany the army in case the unidentified group seeks something else than war/raiding.
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