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Upon This Sword of Fire (CKII Quest)

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I'm not advocating the torching of whole cities, unless they've specifically as a collective done us wrong. I'm just saying that if the leader gets a message in the field from terrified family and courtiers about the enemy swooping from the sky and surrounding the palace grounds in flame (though not the palace itself), they may be somewhat more willing to give diplomacy a chance while their heirs, loved ones, and so on are still intact.
 
Kipeci said:
I'm not advocating the torching of whole cities, unless they've specifically as a collective done us wrong. I'm just saying that if the leader gets a message in the field from terrified family and courtiers about the enemy swooping from the sky and surrounding the palace grounds in flame (though not the palace itself), they may be somewhat more willing to give diplomacy a chance while their heirs, loved ones, and so on are still intact.
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I think that would do the opposite and they would simply torch as much of our towns/citys as possible as revenge.
 
Skjadir said:
I think that would do the opposite and they would simply torch as much of our towns/citys as possible as revenge.
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We'd have to be dealing with a fairly irrational person if they take to the knowledge that their family is utterly at our mercy by starting to run wild. If they won't see reason, then we might as well commit to it and demoralize their soldiers with burning of such places and supplies until their army starts to fray.

Alternately, just set the overproud leadership on fire and then go back to the heir to see if they are more pliable. Dragons truly provide options.
 
What mercy? Also, historically at least, bombing campaigns of civilians aimed at trying to demoralize the enemy didn't actually work all that well at breaking their will to fight. Like, it did plenty of damage, but 'Evil enemy's literally burning your children alive while laughing about it' is a pretty good motivator for continuing the fight.

Or at least, it doesn't seem like it'd sew earnest cooperation or anything more than, at most, towing the line so long as a dragon was sitting on them...and no longer. I'd rather not have to fear turning my back to anyone we tried this on lest they stab it.
 
Maybe it would be a good idea to have some discussion on our long term goals.

I'm not that keen on conquest. What I want is to spread the Sylltāji faith far and wide. Empires crumble, while religions, once sufficiently established, can last for millennia.

Additionally, I would like to advance our knowledge and technology. I want this to be the beginning of the Golden Age of the Sylltāji Faith. Long may it last.
 
Kipeci said:
We'd have to be dealing with a fairly irrational person if they take to the knowledge that their family is utterly at our mercy by starting to run wild. If they won't see reason, then we might as well commit to it and demoralize their soldiers with burning of such places and supplies until their army starts to fray.

Alternately, just set the overproud leadership on fire and then go back to the heir to see if they are more pliable. Dragons truly provide options.
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Something you seem to leave out is by the time they get the message some time has passed (days to month) and also fire is not safe. If we set some part of a city/town on fire that give it a very good chance to spread with means dead people. At the end when they get the message they won´t be able to help their familys anymore with now have a good chance to be dead and the people you fight grief and have a target for said grief. That will most likely lead to them fighting to the death.
 
Kipeci said:
I'm not advocating the torching of whole cities, unless they've specifically as a collective done us wrong. I'm just saying [...] give diplomacy a chance.
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Kipeci said:
Just fly behind an advancing army's back and torch its supplies
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Kipeci said:
demoralize their soldiers with burning
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Kipeci said:
while we're at it, fly to the enemy capitol and set buildings all around the palace aflame
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Kipeci said:
set the overproud leadership on fire
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Truly, you, sir, are a grandmaster of Dragon Diplomacy and a faithful servant of the First Flame.
 
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Skjadir said:
Digging Deeply: I want to double down on it for max profit, but that will cost 2400 g. This means the road and church would need to wait 1 more turn as they are both things i want to also double down on, but could led to problems with our money as they also pretty expensive with 4000 g for the road if the dd it and 3000 g for the church.
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We have a 91% chance of success even without doubling down. (70% base +11% advisor bonus +10% bonus from out military crit this round.) So doubling down is hardly necessary and quite expensive.

We also have new options, and there may well be some intriguing Intrigue votes that we absolutely can't afford to fail.

In general, though, I support going mining. We need more money, and as a bonus we get vibranium.
 
I don't think hypothetical discussions like this are really too useful. How best to employ a dragon will depend on concrete circumstances. As long as we have a strong army, though, using Simurgh in support is a solid and conservative option. That said, people can react in wildly different ways to intimidation and iconoclasm; torching an enemy's palace after we already have the upper hand would be more likely to accelerate the collapse of a foe than to bring them together in defiance, especially in a period before nationalism where nobles and peasants have little buy-in to the abstract notion of the State.

Next turn, well, we need to make a decision on intervening in the Hastrijani civil war. Even if that decision is not to, or to await events. Using the time of relative peace and prosperity to consolidate the eealm by solidifying support among the Border Princes and Nomads would be a good idwa if we reject intervention. Also may be a good time to Double Down on the medical options for Learning to establish the benefits of those as soon as possible.
 
Kipeci said:
How are they murdering her so easily if she's up in the air on a dragon and encased in her special armor? Just the distance alone wipes out the possibility of most weapons and weakens the rest (an arrow at the top of its arc has lost a good deal of its 'oomph'), most of what remains would be blocked by the giant, mostly impervious dragon and of what little does get to her it would find its way blocked by armor... and that's not factoring in any evasive maneuvers or magic that she might employ to help her. An arrow's point is greatly dulled when it's incinerated, after all, and we're starting to also take control of the wind and elements of the storm.

I think one of the best military uses for it lies outside of any battle, though. Just fly behind an advancing army's back and torch its supplies, the hunger and sickness will kill them more surely than the spearpoints of any number of our soldiers. While we're at it, fly to the enemy capitol and set buildings all around the palace aflame, show that they are powerless to protect the very seat of their authority.
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You do know that most supplies ARE guarded yeah? It's the sort of trick that only really works once or twice, if you're doing it, you're probably better off burninating their leadership from the air. That also only works once, but is remarkably more effective.

More to the point, conquest wise, this strategy is incredibly ineffective unless your goal purely is to score a massive killcount. You want to take out or force to capitulate as many of their leadership as is possible, with a minimum of civilian deaths(who typically, would not be too motivated to take action as long as you don't treat them horribly and they didn't have unusual affection for their rulers), and the nation's wealth intact.

You probably still want to crack their army on the field at least once, or they'd be back for more too.
Supercombatants aren't a cure all if all you managed to do is ensure a famine, disease, and uprisings with nothing to show for it but ruins.
 
Gingganz said:
We have a 91% chance of success even without doubling down. (70% base +11% advisor bonus +10% bonus from out military crit this round.) So doubling down is hardly necessary and quite expensive.

We also have new options, and there may well be some intriguing Intrigue votes that we absolutely can't afford to fail.

In general, though, I support going mining. We need more money, and as a bonus we get vibranium.
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The thing is i want to crit that roll as it gives us more money something that would help us in the future.
 
We can't Double Down on everything, so the mechanic is best reserved for rolls which absolutely have to succeed, or low-odds rolls with a big payoff. Digging Deeply really is neither of those.
 
Personally, I would say that we should investigate the Princess' comments about her brother not acting like himself. The other options seem... Too much prone to backfire on us, and unite people behind the guy we absolutely do not want on the Throne--or cause the kingdom to collapse due to being unsuitable. (I don't find it a coincidence that the two who are most open to our intervention are the ones who are most divisive)

Baraz is absolutely poison--the Twins are two people (And thus, one of them has to go, since I think people will be uncomfortable if they get formally married--incest may have been a thing there in the past, but it's out of favor now). And the Bastard is leading a peasant rebellion--and those tend to piss all of the entrenched interests off.

Even if nothing is wrong, Kavan is the... Least likely to start a war with us, and is currently the one in power to begin with. Hopefully investigating the Princess' lead will help mellow him.
 
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Cavalier said:
Next turn, well, we need to make a decision on intervening in the Hastrijani civil war. Even if that decision is not to, or to await events.
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I don't want to invade. This is almost certainly bad as long as we don't know more about the situation. Spying on Hastrija and trying to find out what is going on with the Crown Prince sounds better, as long as the chance of failure is low,
 
Yeah though, our intervention is likely to push people behind Baraz' banner, and him winning is unacceptable to the geopolitics of the Scarlet Successors.

The others are neutral to us mostly, which is far more managable.
 
I'd rather stay out of Hastrijan. Maybe we could assassinate Baraz, but that action would probably have a very low chance of success so....
 
Remember that Straydor fell to the Ash Maiden while in the middle of a civil war. The two claimants could not reconcile even long enough to fight off the invasion. And since Baraz has accused Kavan of patricide and regicide, well, that's a lot to walk back...

Granted, the situations aren't necessarily the same. But we should check any predisposition to non-involvement long enough to seriously consider all options.
 
Cavalier said:
Remember that Straydor fell to the Ash Maiden while in the middle of a civil war. The two claimants could not reconcile even long enough to fight off the invasion. And since Baraz has accused Kavan of patricide and regicide, well, that's a lot to walk back...

Granted, the situations aren't necessarily the same. But we should check any predisposition to non-involvement long enough to seriously consider all options.
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Yeah, but the Straydors were decadent as fuck, to the point of self destruction.

Not going to be so easy taking down a still fairly vigorous empire, even if it's in a state of civil war. Doubly so when you're a convienent boogeyman over the horizon to get people to band together, rather than just a bunch of upstarts who got lucky.

Baraz or those with a Baraz-like mindset absolutely, positively cannot be allowed on the throne. And the fastest way to give him momentum would be to give him allies among his rivals by being caught interfering with their war. Only reason he isn't winning after all is because he's unpopular outside of his bloc, and can't win without exposing his heartlands to his rivals.
 
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veekie said:
You do know that most supplies ARE guarded yeah? It's the sort of trick that only really works once or twice, if you're doing it, you're probably better off burninating their leadership from the air. That also only works once, but is remarkably more effective.

More to the point, conquest wise, this strategy is incredibly ineffective unless your goal purely is to score a massive killcount. You want to take out or force to capitulate as many of their leadership as is possible, with a minimum of civilian deaths(who typically, would not be too motivated to take action as long as you don't treat them horribly and they didn't have unusual affection for their rulers), and the nation's wealth intact.

You probably still want to crack their army on the field at least once, or they'd be back for more too.
Supercombatants aren't a cure all if all you managed to do is ensure a famine, disease, and uprisings with nothing to show for it but ruins.
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How exactly do you guard supplies against a terrible flying dragon that can spew fire from above when you're marching through the barren plains that constitute the southern parts of our realms? If you've ideas, I'd like to hear them.

This sort of threatening is along the lines of gunboat diplomacy, which worked more than adequately for the British. Park your gunboat in the waters of the most major coastal city of the polity in question, having ensured that it has no naval strength to repulse you. Assure them that their resistance will bring destruction; destroy local fortifications and seats of power at leisure should they require some convincing. As we would essentially dominate the air much as the British dominated the ocean, we would be able to leverage a similarly threatening presence that they have little ability to dislodge to the extent of our knowledge.

And remember, those who die from famine and illness provide that much more space for us to bring in a loyal elite as administrators.
 
Cavalier said:
Remember that Straydor fell to the Ash Maiden while in the middle of a civil war. The two claimants could not reconcile even long enough to fight off the invasion. And since Baraz has accused Kavan of patricide and regicide, well, that's a lot to walk back...

Granted, the situations aren't necessarily the same. But we should check any predisposition to non-involvement long enough to seriously consider all options.
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I wonder if Hastrijan's other enemies won't take advantage of this. If they do, we could always join the party.
 
I really, really doubt that one dragon, no matter how fearsome, is that potent of a strategic asset as to basically be an 'I Win' button, which is how you're seeming to assume it works. I mean, it could work that way (it did in ASOIAF, somewhat), but it's at least possible between the spirits and all of the magic that does seem to exist to some extent in this world for them to pull something out of their hat that can kill or cripple a dragon.

And they'd need to do so precisely once because we have only a single dragon and we got it via ridiculous crit-successes.

So we'll see, I suppose is the thing I'm saying.
 
Kipeci said:
This sort of threatening is along the lines of gunboat diplomacy, which worked more than adequately for the British.
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Worked well for what? Getting trade concessions? Sure.

I doubt that it will help us spread Sylltāji faith, though.

This is the reason why I want to discuss long term goals. We are at a point where they start to affect our present actions.
 
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