Unpopular opinions we have on fiction

[FeigningGrey]

"Let's go! open up, it's time for Unpop!"
Alright, time for my mandatory Unpopular Opinions Post. Let's get this over with.
"You're late. You know the deal. You can Omelaspost for a Funny, or you can make an interesting post for an Insightful."
Here in Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation, no one chooses to make interesting posts. It's better to make the one joke everyone knows for the Funny, rather than risk your entire life for just one Insightful rating.
"Tomorrow you better not be late, or I'll have you posting for Informative reactions as punishment."
"Yes sir, sorry, I won't be late next time."

Down here, us Omelasposters only get one Rating a day. One Funny rating is just enough to get your post:reaction ratio to the next day. But that's the life of Unpopular Opinions Poster Civilisation. If you wanna survive, you have to Unpopular Opinions Post. Every Omelasposter has the same goal, and that's to make it to the top thread, where all the Brothers Karamazovposters live. Except, most Brothers Karamazovposters are born on the top thread. If you're an Omelasposter, there's only one way up, and that is through the Temple of Unpopular Opinions. The Temple of Unpopular Opinions is the only structure on SV that combines the bottom thread to the top thread. To make it up, you have to post an impossibly hard Unpopular Opinion Reply that no Omelasposter has ever completed. And that's assuming you even get the chance to post the reply in the thread. The inside of the Temple is protected by a barrier and the only way an Omelasposter gets past the barrier is if they've earned a gilded post. I've never even tried getting a gilded post before, but if I'm going to rank up to a Brothers Karamazovposter one day, I'm gonna have to.

 

[Adloquium]

As far as I recall what it means is that Lung gobbled up every asian gang in BB and made them his. Is this how gangs work? Probably not, I dunno.

Lung does not have any kind of mental powers. He does have the ability to be really scary and kill people without difficulty or fear of consequences.

In Worm Brockton Bay a gang is effectively an entourage for a supervillain team. Obviously this isn't what real gangs are, though since it leans on the fantastic premise it would take more than that to cast down that aspect.

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But why did Lung limit himself to "Asian gangs"? If he wanted to create a big scary gang (or entourage for his supervillainy, as you say), why not just pick up the easiest pickings, rather than specifically "Asian gangs"? Or are the "Asian gangs" coincidentally the easiest pickings?

I mean, Pan-Asianism was a thing in real life. A pan-asian gang doesn't seem too implausible when enforced by a guy who can turn into a goddamn dragon.

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From what I recall, though, these were generally by state actors, or people who had (or expected to have) state backing.

Lung would not be settling for "pan Asian gangs". He would be trying to unite all the diaspora and carve out a nation of his own, before going after the actual East Asian countries (because pan Asian attempts usually started from an East Asian country and assumed non-East Asian countries were subordinate, if not subhuman).

 

[Aineko]

That's a bloody weak defense.
The fact that they are a priority, means that they are, effectively, worse, in that specific moment.

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I do not get the stance that "the person continuously terror bombing the city right now is a bigger problem than the resident overpowered neonazis" is a problematic development.

 

[Valmond]

I do not get the stance that "the person continuously terror bombing the city right now is a bigger problem than the resident overpowered neonazis" is a problematic development.

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Only reason there was a "person continuously terror bombing the city" to make nazis a lesser priority was because the author decided there should be one.

 

[Squirtodyle]

I do question, with respect to this criticism, whether the break point chosen is really meaningful. Taylor and the Undersiders weren't at war with the nazi gang before that. They had some strife (mainly one member raiding E88 dogfighting rings because basically dogs were her entire deal I think) but not a serious conflict.

Meanwhile there are definitely worse moves about ABB design (the pan-asian thing, but also they get the Rape Hat. I dunno if there's anyone who could wear that safely but definitely not the broadly drawn immigrant gang), probably the E88 design (ymmv but the only major gang with an educated upper class leader, that's them. Maybe Coil too but Coil is special. Plus their Racism Hat as previously noted doesn't seem to get the street level footprint of the others), and then the hugely cringey also-ran Merchants with their Filthy Druggie Hat...

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The argument, as I understand it—or at least, as I would put it—is that when you construct a story you're sending messages in terms of the plot points you choose to make. You're correct that the Undersiders weren't exactly at war with the gangs, they were a much smaller operation, but ultimately Wildbow chose to write one main "gang war" plotline involving one of the established Brockton Bay gangs becoming so much of a threat that they had to be destroyed, and so much of a threat that it necessitated teaming up with the other gangs to do it, and when he chose to write that plotline he made the decision to put the Pan-Asian Gang as the major threats that must be stopped for the good of the city, and he made the decision to put the Neo-Nazis as being on the same side of the protagonists—fighting to save the city, even if only to exploit it later.

Ultimately, whether he intended it to or not, it's something that I find worthy of criticism. I think Wildbow was far too sympathetic towards the literal Neo-Nazi gang, even accepting that the early 2010s were a different time compared to the mid 2010s, and I find it quite uncomfortable that he positioned them as a lesser threat and lesser danger to the city compared to the (poor concept that is) the pan-Asian gang presumably made up primarily of immigrants. Yes, he wrote quite a lot to justify it, but the fundamental concept he's justifying is uncomfortable, and I think that it's fine to criticize it.

 

[Aineko]

But why did Lung limit himself to "Asian gangs"? If he wanted to create a big scary gang (or entourage for his supervillainy, as you say), why not just pick up the easiest pickings, rather than specifically "Asian gangs"? Or are the "Asian gangs" coincidentally the easiest pickings?

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Fine questions and I don't have answers. Or confidence that there are good ones. I could make up a mediocre one but that seems to serve little purpose.

One of the less Social Problems problems with the BB setting is why Lung doesn't just roll over the place. There's nothing about the powers in play that gives him a compelling reason to back down ever.

 

[BBadolato]

I mean at this point, I would just say Wildbow doesn't know how gangs and organized crime works especially in America and call it a day. While kudo's for not bringing either the mafia, a discount version, or anything of the really 'big' syndicates. If you really need them to establish a need for your supes being there you can do a lot more than how it turned out.

I don't think either the E88, or ABB are bad idea's inherently, or possibly even the others, but there was more you could do to them bad but less of a 'problematic' sort in that being they are bad in way that detracts from the greater story. But if the gangs are just window dressing and excuses, and not meant to be examined in depth too much it kind of shows. Hence why I think you could probably touch up those parts without radically changing the tone if sticking to the tone is the ideal.

I do not get the stance that "the person continuously terror bombing the city right now is a bigger problem than the resident overpowered neonazis" is a problematic development.

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It's an issue in this instance you have neo-nazi's coming off as a 'lesser' evil. Which is still a bad look, even if the narrative makes it's justifications for it.

 

[Squirtodyle]

But why did Lung limit himself to "Asian gangs"? If he wanted to create a big scary gang (or entourage for his supervillainy, as you say), why not just pick up the easiest pickings, rather than specifically "Asian gangs"? Or are the "Asian gangs" coincidentally the easiest pickings?

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It was pretty unconventional for a gang to include members of the variety of nationalities that the ABB did, but Lung had made it a mission to conquer and absorb every gang with Asian members and many without. Once he had the manpower he needed, the non-Asian gangs were cannibalized for assets, their members discarded. Even though there were no more major gangs in the east end of town to absorb, he was still recruiting zealously. His method, now, was to go after anyone older than twelve and younger than sixty. It didn't matter if you were a gang member or not. If you were Asian and you lived in Brockton Bay, Lung and his people expected you to either join or to pay tribute one way or another. There had been local news reports on it, newspaper articles, and I could remember seeing signs in the guidance counselor's office detailing where people who were targeted in this way could go for help.

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"I was in prison before I came to America. There are four ways one can survive in such a place. You can join one of the gangs or groups in charge. This was not possible for me then, for I was known to be half Japanese, half Chinese, and there was no gang willing to include such a person. It is not a possibility for me now, either, for I am too used to being in charge to bow and scrape for any length of time without losing my patience. It is the route I see you have taken here."

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The implication from the work itself is that Lung's discrimination for being half Japanese and half Chinese ensured he couldn't join a gang in the first place, so when he made his own he forcibly absorbed every Asian gang in the city, and then effectively demanded obedience and tribute from every Asian person in the city.

 

[Mandemon]

Also when you decide to make an ethnic minority into a "more pressing issue" than the nazi's, i think a level of depth is warranted.

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Out of interest, never having read Worm and not planning to... are they "more pressing issue" because they are Asian, or because there is someone among them with will and capability to cause far more damage than neo-nazis could?

 

[NemoMarx]

The general messaging problem here that wildbow hasn't thought about is more pervasive than the team up thing.

The asian gang is threatening in a loud, scary way - they operate seedy businesses like quasi legal casinos and do terror bombings. No one ever negotiates with them or talks to them on even terms.

The poor gang, the merchants, sell drugs and run a flesh market in one scene, and are visibly sexist all the time. They can try to show up to inter villain meetings, but they won't be allowed to sit at the table because of how they look.

The nazis run unpleasant things like fighting rings (for dogs and pit fighters) that upset the main characters, but their racism or homophobia is not highlighted often. It's implied they keep to the nice parts of town. Instead of operating sketchy businesses, their leader is a local Pharmaceutical CEO, and their identities being leaked is a scandal and causes severe disruption to the city, implying they all had secret identities. (Note that the ABB's Bakuda had her identity leaked by the superhero cops basically fully publicly, and this is not treated as a violation of unwritten rules in the same way. She wasn't an upstanding citizen and member of the business community like the nazis.)

The E88 are presented as more evil and more threatening in a lot of ways, because they're kind of the evil behind the situation, openly manipulating other groups into helping them, etc. But this is still a problem of framing, because it means the Nazis are the only thoughtful, planning gang, the ones that might be a rival to Coils whole organization, whereas the other more directly racially coded gangs are basically purely a violent threat. I think "the nazis are also your business leaders" could be a interesting message if it felt like Wildbow was using it effectively, but it's still betraying a lot of biases.

(Also as a devil's advocate thing, if you wanted more nuance, Japan is basically destroyed in the setting, so pan asianism is slightly more complicated than you'd otherwise think, I guess. Brockton is supposed to be the site of a much larger asian diaspora than the eastern seaboard has OTL. Worm doesn't really seem interested in exploring this beyond a setting detail in the opening, though.)

Out of interest, never having read Worm and not planning to... are they "more pressing issue" because they are Asian, or because there is someone among them with will and capability to cause far more damage than neo-nazis could?

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Bakuda and her willinginess to implant bombs in people to press gang them into service is temporarily giving her more armed gang members on the street than the nazis, and she's portrayed as reckless and uncaring of collateral damage in a way that I guess the nazis (despite having fairly destructive powers) are not shown as. I mostly think this ties back into the thing I'm describing above where the nazis are almost always portrayed as having more long term plotting and organization and care than the ABB and Merchants in canon.

 

[Valmond]

Out of interest, never having read Worm and not planning to... are they "more pressing issue" because they are Asian, or because there is someone among them with will and capability to cause far more damage than neo-nazis could?

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LAter, as should be pretty aparrent from the discussion.
Like, nobody is accusing Wildbow of being pro nazi, or anti asian, here.
Just, thoughtless, ignorant, and unwilling to research. Which ends up causing his most well known work to have a lot of issues.

 

[Mandemon]

LAter, as should be pretty aparrent from the discussion.
Like, nobody is accusing Wildbow of being pro nazi, or anti asian, here.
Just, thoughtless, ignorant, and unwilling to research. Which ends up causing his most well known work to have a lot of issues.

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So I don't see the "issue" here. Are Nazis depicted as good people? Or it is just "We all hate each others, and would love to kill each others, but right now this one gang is about to murder us all and we would prefer that not to succeed", because then whole thing just feels handwringing that story does not do "Kill all Nazis on sight" trope.

 

[BossFight]

The argument, as I understand it—or at least, as I would put it—is that when you construct a story you're sending messages in terms of the plot points you choose to make. You're correct that the Undersiders weren't exactly at war with the gangs, they were a much smaller operation, but ultimately Wildbow chose to write one main "gang war" plotline involving one of the established Brockton Bay gangs becoming so much of a threat that they had to be destroyed, and so much of a threat that it necessitated teaming up with the other gangs to do it, and when he chose to write that plotline he made the decision to put the Pan-Asian Gang as the major threats that must be stopped for the good of the city, and he made the decision to put the Neo-Nazis as being on the same side of the protagonists—fighting to save the city, even if only to exploit it later.

Ultimately, whether he intended it to or not, it's something that I find worthy of criticism. I think Wildbow was far too sympathetic towards the literal Neo-Nazi gang, even accepting that the early 2010s were a different time compared to the mid 2010s, and I find it quite uncomfortable that he positioned them as a lesser threat and lesser danger to the city compared to the (poor concept that is) the pan-Asian gang presumably made up primarily of immigrants. Yes, he wrote quite a lot to justify it, but the fundamental concept he's justifying is uncomfortable, and I think that it's fine to criticize it.

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So I think I've finally gotten down what my issue with this cristism is.

The substance of this critisism appears to be that "Taylor teamed up with Nazis to fight Asians so the story thinks Asians are worse than Nazis"and that is simply untrue. Nowhere in the story is the ABB portrayed as *worse* than the E88. Rather, the story treats the ABB fight as a sort of... Monster of the week. They're a gang, gangs are evil. They do evil things. So our protagonist is going to fight them. Later, our protag will fight the E88.

And there is substantial criticism to be had in how Worm treats the E88 as "just another gang". The way it refuses to engage with their hateful ideology and treats any evil they do as no different from the evil done by other gangs.

But the issue isn't that Taylor teams up with the E88 to fight the ABB, or that the E88 is shown as *better* than the ABB.

It's that the E88 are basically treated as a gang larping as Nazis. The way the iconography is just treated as a gang sign which doesn't impact their actions

 

[Valmond]

So I don't see the "issue" here. Are Nazis depicted as good people? Or it is just "We all hate each others, and would love to kill each others, but right now this one gang is about to murder us all and we would prefer that not to succeed", because then whole thing just feels handwringing that story does not do "Kill all Nazis on sight" trope.

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Nazis are depicted as lesser evil, compared to a gang of ethnic minorities, that is bad.
And the post above me points out how the story soft sells nazies in general compared to gangs that are not of lily white complexions.

 

[Aineko]

It's an issue in this instance you have neo-nazi's coming off as a 'lesser' evil. Which is still a bad look, even if the narrative makes it's justifications for it.

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Is it though? I mean Worm makes you look at it, and maybe that truely changes the character somehow? But any time The Avengers are fighting someone other than Hydra they're delivering the same implication. And only some of those times are a mistake.

Nazis are always a problem. They are not always the highest priority problem. (They are probably often under-prioritized due to faulty prioritization, which some fanfics make BB into a portayal of but the core work probably doesn't.)

The implication from the work itself is that Lung's discrimination for being half Japanese and half Chinese ensured he couldn't join a gang in the first place, so when he made his own he forcibly absorbed every Asian gang in the city, and then effectively demanded obedience and tribute from every Asian person in the city.

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Those quotes say a lot but leave open the question of why Lung apparently only wants "asian" subjects. Since his gang is top-down and already not supported by ethnic cohesion, it's not apparent why that was his line.

 

[Mandemon]

Nazis are depicted as lesser evil, compared to a gang of ethnic minorities, that is bad.
And the post above me points out how the story soft sells nazies in general compared to gangs that are not of lily white complexions.

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As far as I can see, it's not "Nazis are lesser evil than ethnic minority". It's "This other gang is currently capable of actually causing damage to us compared to this neo-nazi gang who can't, and we can't beat them on our own".

Based on what has been posted here, it's not just "We make peace with Neo-Nazis". It's "We make temporary truce with every other gang and law enforcement because this one gang (who just happens to be minority) just got a guy who is too dangerous for anyone to defeat individually".

So it's not "They are lesser evil" or such, but "this one gang has, at the moment, become more imminent threat". Not a greater evil, just a greater threat. Once threat is passed, it's right back to normal day of everyone fighting everyone else.

 

[Squirtodyle]

As far as I can see, it's not "Nazis are lesser evil than ethnic minority". It's "This other gang is currently capable of actually causing damage to us compared to this neo-nazi gang who can't, and we can't beat them on our own".

Based on what has been posted here, it's not just "We make peace with Neo-Nazis". It's "We make temporary truce with every other gang and law enforcement because this one gang (who just happens to be minority) just got a guy who is too dangerous for anyone to defeat individually".

So it's not "They are lesser evil" or such, but "this one gang has, at the moment, become more imminent threat". Not a greater evil, just a greater threat. Once threat is passed, it's right back to normal day of everyone fighting everyone else.

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And the argument being made there is that doing this while explicitly including Neo-Nazis against the threat of the specifically Asian gang is kind of fucked up regardless of how much in-universe justification there is for it.

 

[Aineko]

As far as I can see, it's not "Nazis are lesser evil than ethnic minority". It's "This other gang is currently capable of actually causing damage to us compared to this neo-nazi gang who can't, and we can't beat them on our own".

Based on what has been posted here, it's not just "We make peace with Neo-Nazis". It's "We make temporary truce with every other gang and law enforcement because this one gang (who just happens to be minority) just got a guy who is too dangerous for anyone to defeat individually".

So it's not "They are lesser evil" or such, but "this one gang has, at the moment, become more imminent threat". Not a greater evil, just a greater threat. Once threat is passed, it's right back to normal day of everyone fighting everyone else.

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You're actually underselling the "guy" - Bakuda isn't a potential problem threatening the balance of power, she's actively engaged in wrecking everything.

EDIT: This is partially misremembered - by the time they actually take down the ABB Lung is back in charge, but they haven't gone back from their Bakuda-enabled aggressive stance.

 

[Mandemon]

And the argument being made there is that doing this while explicitly including Neo-Nazis against the threat of the specifically Asian gang is kind of fucked up regardless of how much in-universe justification there is for it.

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Which leads to what I said. Are they considered bigger threat always because they are Asian? Or is them being Asian entirely irrelevant to threat they present?

Are people specifically going "I rather side with Nazis than with Asians", or are Nazis there to show "This group has grown so dangerous we are ready to make a temporal peace with Nazis in order to survive, after this it's business as usual"?

Is the opposing gang being asians ever brought as a reason to oppose them? Does anyone (apart from Nazis, naturally) going "I rather fight Asians than Nazis"? Where people considering Asian gang more pressing issue than Nazis until the asian gang gained power to actually threaten them?

Because by everything said here, nobody cares that they are Asians. Hell, they weren't even a priority issue before, it is only after they recruit a guy who is capable of causing mass destruction on scale that none of the groups can actually defend themselves alone and need to literally have everyone pointing their guns at one direction.

If I can flip out Nazi gang and Asian gang and have no effect on reason why people are fighting them, I do not see issue with them being "Asian". Would it be better if they were "European" gang? "Slavic" gang? "Anglo" gang?

 

[Adloquium]

Because by everything said here, nobody cares that they are Asians.

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At this point I don't actually know why the gang is "Asian", in terms of narrative purpose. It's clearly not diversity.

If I can flip out Nazi gang and Asian gang and have no effect on reason why people are fighting them, I do not see issue with them being "Asian". Would it be better if they were "European" gang? "Slavic" gang? "Anglo" gang?

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I am now curious if making the gang "Irish" would change the dynamics, both for the story and for commentary.

 

[Kadmus]

The implication from the work itself is that Lung's discrimination for being half Japanese and half Chinese ensured he couldn't join a gang in the first place, so when he made his own he forcibly absorbed every Asian gang in the city, and then effectively demanded obedience and tribute from every Asian person in the city.

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I will say that the second quote there is fucking hilarious in the context of the rest of Worm (and AIUI Ward) since, uh, Lung spends literally the entirety of the work post-capture being a henchman of some kind.

 

[BossFight]

At this point I don't actually know why the gang is "Asian", in terms of narrative purpose. It's clearly not diversity

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My best guess is it's an outgrowth from the Sinking of Kyushu. Wildbow probably decided on the Endbringers early on and then decided on a few places to be completely destroyed.

Kyushu ended up being one of them which caused a large Japanese diaspora. Such a diaspora would naturally end up in a shipping city like Brockton Bay (though why east coast instead of west I have no idea).

Economically disadvantaged groups are more likely to turn to the sorts of crimes we associate with gangs (because rich people crimes are legal and poor people are desperate) and also more likely to form tightly insular groups which turn to each other for help (instead of racist law enforcement).

All of this means you have the making of a large (Japanese gang) in the area.

This then bounces off what was probably another worldbuilding idea (presumably something like: all superhero settings have Nazis so let's throw in a Nazi group) providing "justification" for why the Nazi gang is so big and powerful (there is nothing that makes Americans more racist then immigrants).

Wildbow then probably looked at his Japanese gang and thought "this is a little boring, let's add a twist" and decided that Lung was half-chinese and half-japanese and that this gave him a complex about his identify which formed the nucleus of wanting to form a pan-asian gang. A process which would have been made easier by the external pressure of the Nazis forcing all Asians to unite around the identiy of "Asian" because when a person is going to bash in the skull of every Asian in the city you learn to stick together even if you normally hate each other

 

[NemoMarx]

Geschellaft is also pretty weird worldbuilding in a similar way, because it's "also the nazi gangs in america are deeply tied to the european nazi crime network, which is obviously the dominant underground force in all of europe except russia".

The further out from Brockton Bay you go, the weirder Worm worldbuilding gets, and by weird I mean kinda lazy and based on really basic understanding or stereotypes a lot of the time.

 

[Estro]

I still find it interesting that America has dollar coins in wormverse. I mean, that's great, objectively better, but also like... you can tell this is a man who uses loonies.

 

[BBadolato]

So I think I've finally gotten down what my issue with this cristism is.

The substance of this critisism appears to be that "Taylor teamed up with Nazis to fight Asians so the story thinks Asians are worse than Nazis"and that is simply untrue. Nowhere in the story is the ABB portrayed as *worse* than the E88. Rather, the story treats the ABB fight as a sort of... Monster of the week. They're a gang, gangs are evil. They do evil things. So our protagonist is going to fight them. Later, our protag will fight the E88.

And there is substantial criticism to be had in how Worm treats the E88 as "just another gang". The way it refuses to engage with their hateful ideology and treats any evil they do as no different from the evil done by other gangs.

But the issue isn't that Taylor teams up with the E88 to fight the ABB, or that the E88 is shown as *better* than the ABB.

It's that the E88 are basically treated as a gang larping as Nazis. The way the iconography is just treated as a gang sign which doesn't impact their actions

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If what @NemoMarx says is true are they really a gang? Again I deeply apologize if I'm going down the absolutely annoying and probably stupid route of 'gangsplaining' I guess for what is a fictional universe of people with superpowers that I have read it's source material.

See a gang would just be involved in various minor crimes and not really be organized to the extent of controlling a city. If the E88 really has that much influence their less a 'gang' and more a syndicate, although that might be underselling them because even syndicates had some limited influence that doesn't seem to be the case if a lot of things are in the A88's pockets. If you have these higher up people doing gangbanger things like stealing and robbery it's kind of odd, unless they are in for the thrills.

As for the iconography just being treated as a gang sign, it really depends on the gang's makeup. You might have it treated as a gang sign under younger less serious members, but full on serious business for older members. Nevermind, that street gangs in particular do have iconography, like colors, and preferred symbols that Nazi elements would fit like a glove, but if that is all they have, then it almost sounds like edgy decoration than dedicated Neo-Nazis.

 

[NemoMarx]

This is really getting into the weeds at this point, but they're called a gang by law enforcement groups in the city, it's just that the rule of law and monopoly in violence in the setting are pretty thin. Also the fact that they run the local Pharma company is a secret and all that, it's how they fund the gang activities, in theory.

And those activities definitely include racial hate crimes, nazi rallies, and so on, this just doesn't seem to come up much, but the narrative comments on the committment to racism in their members at a lot of points, and they are a nazi gang in spirit as well as iconography. You can assume they're using their influence politically to support fascist causes as well as harass people in the town, and Wildbow not depicting that as something that matters is yet another easy critique of the worldbuilding.