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To Struggle and Strive: The Combined Syndicates of America in 1932. A Kaiserreich Quest

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Justinian said:
Just because he will be interrogated does not mean he will tell us the truth
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Torture doesn't get the truth, it gets you what you want to hear. Our hands will be bloody enough with a clandestine execution - let that crime not weigh on Reed's conscience.

Though I have to ask why Schenk is against assassinating Tobin. You'd think it'd be the kind of thing he'd be all for, being part of the RAF and all - could we get a quick primer as to why he's against it, @notbirdofprey ?
 
Justinian said:
Just because he will be interrogated does not mean he will tell us the truth
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Sure, but if we torture him, we'll get nothing of use. If we put him on trial, he'll do his level best to bury us.

Fission Battery said:
I don't think we should engage in political murder of corrupt party members. It sets a bad precedent. A trial may hurt but it also drags him through the mud too and shows that we won't tolerate that.
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To repost something I said in the discord:
Just to give my take, like, we're going to be going into the 2ACW at some point. That's basically a given. Shit's going to have to go down, one way or another, and I think discretely executing an opportunist and a traitor, who's literally said that if we do anything besides let him walk away, he'll do his level best to bury the movement in scandal and controversy, is going to be one of the least morally grey things we can do (while still being morally grey).

His first move on being found out was to try and frame someone else. Then claim he did it for the movement. Then try to threaten us. Then to claim that we were all fools for believing in the cause. He does not believe he did anything wrong, and he will do it again if we let him go. That's why I'm voting for execution.

It's not great precedent, I agree, but this dude will go down trying his level best to drag us all with him, without feeling a shred of remorse. People are dying all over the country, bleeding and fighting for the cause, and this jackass thinks he can take money from the feds and then destroy the movement with sheer, bloody opportunism and blackmail. If we give him a venue to try and prove himself right, it will cost far more innocent lives, as more people turn away from us, or remain unsure, leading to a bloodier conflict in the future.
 
TheMaskedReader said:
To repost something I said in the discord:
Just to give my take, like, we're going to be going into the 2ACW at some point. That's basically a given. Shit's going to have to go down, one way or another, and I think discretely executing an opportunist and a traitor, who's literally said that if we do anything besides let him walk away, he'll do his level best to bury the movement in scandal and controversy, is going to be one of the least morally grey things we can do (while still being morally grey).
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I know, it was in the back of my mind too. Just unfortunate that it may be the more expedient option for us. We are preparing for a war we know will happen, even if we win the election fair and square it will trigger. It feels so far off because we're going month by month. It's a good point though. He is a ruthless opportunistic bastard in it for the money. I dislike it, especially what it'll do to Reed, but it's better than him dragging us through the mud and possibly walking too. We can say he's working with the feds, but that isn't a crime. It might look bad for us.

So, I reluctantly change my vote. Just a straightforward death.

[X] Cities can be dangerous places.
 
[X] Have him arrested and tried for corruption. He may reveal that dirty laundry he threatened, and there's no guarantee he will be found guilty
-[X] Reveal that he has been working with the Feds as part of the trial.
 
TheArcanist said:
Torture doesn't get the truth, it gets you what you want to hear. Our hands will be bloody enough with a clandestine execution - let that crime not weigh on Reed's conscience.

Though I have to ask why Schenk is against assassinating Tobin. You'd think it'd be the kind of thing he'd be all for, being part of the RAF and all - could we get a quick primer as to why he's against it, @notbirdofprey ?
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I don't think he's against it, he's against trying to make it a frame-job: presumably the short notice and unideal location just make it extremely hard for a frame job to be believable
 
I truly believe having him excused is the worse option because it sets precedent not only for the revolution but for after it. Up until now we don't really have any skeleton's in our closet for him to use against us. Changing that fact while setting the precedent for killing internal enemy could be the start of an unhealthy spiral.
 
Questwolf said:
I truly believe having him excused is the worse option because it sets precedent not only for the revolution but for after it. Up until now we don't really have any skeleton's in our closet for him to use against us. Changing that fact while setting the precedent for killing internal enemy could be the start of an unhealthy spiral.
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I mean, if we were in a more stable place the kinds of things he's confessed to would be the sort of treason that in most countries with the death penalty would be a slam-dunk ticket to execution. I'm... torn, but I don't think this is actually quite as morally grey, while still being grey, as some would think.
 
The Laurent said:
I mean, if we were in a more stable place the kinds of things he's confessed to would be the sort of treason that in most countries with the death penalty would be a slam-dunk ticket to execution. I'm... torn, but I don't think this is actually quite as morally grey, while still being grey, as some would think.
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I can see where your coming from, and it's not against that I'm against killing him, It's that I believe the trial is important. Sure it may be more convenient now to just kill him but I think that's really sort term thinking. If we want our people to exercise restraint and discipline we have to exercise it ourselves. When we inevitably get into an argument with the RAF about a red terror they will point out that we didn't have a problem killing reactionary traitors now. They could theoretically even reveal it to everyone in order to force the issue.
 
Questwolf said:
I truly believe having him excused is the worse option because it sets precedent not only for the revolution but for after it. Up until now we don't really have any skeleton's in our closet for him to use against us. Changing that fact while setting the precedent for killing internal enemy could be the start of an unhealthy spiral.
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The blood is already flowing plenty, in places all across the country. The RAF has already killed people who were, in all likelihood, far more innocent, with our discrete approval/knowledge, too.
 
[X] Have him arrested and tried for corruption. He may reveal that dirty laundry he threatened, and there's no guarantee he will be found guilty
-[X] Reveal that he has been working with the Feds as part of the trial.

EDIT: This is about setting a proper precedence. Having someone covertly and extrajudicially killed because he is inconvenient to us really makes us no better than the gangsters Tobin is strongly implied to rub shoulders with, and if we want to have any real chance of taking the wind out of the Fosterites and the RAF and their plans for a red terror, it is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing.
 
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We really can't risk a trial here, lest we risk Tobin snaking his way out of punishment and continue to remain a problem for us. It is safer to either give him a rigged trial or execute him.
 
I hate it a lot, and I hope we make sure this doesn't become a reoccurring pattern. We don't want Reed to start making unscrupulous decisions on his own if we set it as precedent too much. Don't want to alter and shift his morals towards quicker and dirtier options.
 
[X] Have him arrested and tried for corruption. He may reveal that dirty laundry he threatened, and there's no guarantee he will be found guilty
-[X] Reveal that he has been working with the Feds as part of the trial.


It might not be the best call but it is the right one.
 
This is a truly extraordinary circumstance. Tobin has literally just told us that he would rather burn down the whole CSA than stop being a corrupt traitor. He conceivably has the means to do it, too. We should not give him the satisfaction of an opportunity.

Like, I get it. People are afraid that this sets a precedent that Reed will just start assassinating his political enemies. But so far even his most right- wing opposition have not been overtly collaborating with the Feds, not have they literally threatened to annihilate the movement if they are touched. What Tobin has done needs an uncompromising response, and it needs to be delivered before he can carry out his nefarious plot against the cause.
 
Ahh. I get it. If this was war and he was collaborating he'd be executed. On the spot.

And it kinda is. Theres battles on the streets and there are sides that want us so fucking dead.

The risks involved in having him killed though. Not just to our soul. Whatever he spills won't be anything compared to what would happen if it got out that we had our own man murdered.

We even told the red army faction that they're not allowed to target SPA.

Our own spymaster would own us from here on out.
 
Well, actually the coin-flip ended up on the RFA Plan that didn't involve telling them they couldn't go after SPA members.

[X] Plan: Leashing and Knowing the Devil
-[X] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[X] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[X] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[X] Write-in: Ask to be informed well-beforehand for any major Red Army Faction operations. (-1 points)
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Though I'm still very much not a fan of the assassination option.
 
Scheduled vote count started by notbirdofprey on Sep 18, 2021 at 10:30 PM, finished with 42 posts and 19 votes.
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by notbirdofprey on Sep 18, 2021 at 10:30 PM, finished with 42 posts and 19 votes.
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    3 rolls for the SPA, 2 for the AFP, 3 for the Feds, 2 for Canada, 1 for the Progressives, and 1 for the Red Army Faction.

    PV1 DC 26, PV2 DC 26, RS DC 45, US DC 32, AR DC 45, AN DC 45, CT DC 95, PD DC 95, CS DC 93, ASA DC 80, EF DC 55
    notbirdofprey threw 11 100-faced dice. Reason: Background Stuff Total: 762
    79 79 92 92 68 68 30 30 89 89 27 27 70 70 91 91 55 55 89 89 72 72
    notbirdofprey threw 3 6-faced dice. Reason: Political Violence Total: 18
    6 6 6 6 6 6
    notbirdofprey threw 3 6-faced dice. Reason: Political Violence Total: 8
    3 3 4 4 1 1
    notbirdofprey threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: Other Background Stuff Total: 226
    27 27 49 49 86 86 56 56 8 8
     
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