my only issue with this is - if they wear the red armbands into combat then they might become targets? Similar to how officers often do in war
Or should we mandate red armbands with medals as a dress uniform etc? and normal red otherwise
To Struggle and Strive: The Combined Syndicates of America in 1932. A Kaiserreich Quest
- Thread starter notbirdofprey
- Start date
- Historic
my only issue with this is - if they wear the red armbands into combat then they might become targets? Similar to how officers often do in war
Or should we mandate red armbands with medals as a dress uniform etc? and normal red otherwise
- Location
- USA
If that's a concern you can simply invert the armband when you're expecting a fight.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] Plan: The People's Armband is Deepest Red
[X] Plan: Easy Does It.
[X] Plan: Easy Does It.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] Plan: The People's Armband is Deepest Red
[x] Plan: Easy Does It.
[x] Plan: Easy Does It.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Plan: The People's Armband is Deepest Red
[X] Plan: Easy Does It.
[X] Plan: Easy Does It.
Tabascoheath
Unkempt, Evil-eyed Charlatan, and Pseudo-Mystic
- Location
- Your Nearest Orbital Habitat
[x] Plan: Easy Does It.
[x] Plan: The People's Armband is Deepest Red
[x] Plan: The People's Armband is Deepest Red
Vote closed
Interlude: The Red Army Faction
No matter how ridiculous the instructions make you feel, you follow them to the letter. You are not unfamiliar with subterfuge, even if you prefer to leave it to other men. So you enter Central Park late one night in a crude disguise: a long coat and a hat. It makes you sweat, but you have handled worse discomfort.
You are only accompanied by a single guard, one of your most trusted - Isaac Goldstein has been in the party since he was a boy, and he has shed blood in your defense no less than four times. Even so, the relative lack of protection is enough to make you uneasy. Every rustle of bushes in the night or snap of a twig has your head pivoting as you try desperately to track the sound.
You find the bench that was described, then the hollow in a tree beside it. You slip in a letter with a time and a place and leave, gladly returning to your bed and your wife's arms.
Two days later you again leave with only Isaac for company.
You make your way down into the city, into the Lower East Side, where Jewish immigrants in their thousands have arrived seeking to prosper in a free land, and now seek to make the land free. You wind your way through streets festooned with banners of the grain and gear and six pointed stars, patrolled by men in yarmulkes and red armbands.
You find a little kosher butcher shop run by a man Schenk assured you was discreet.
Waiting for you are three men. Two you do not recognize.
One is Schenk.
He holds up a hand, speaking before you can.
"I'm sorry about all this, Jack. I wanted to simply tell you the truth, but I was outvoted. In any case, you know now. I am a member of the Red Army Faction. And of course, you already know our demands: Class war, unrelenting and unceasing, until the red flag is flown sea to shining sea. There can be no hesitation, no betrayal of our principles, no peace until we have triumphed. And there is no price that shouldn't be paid for the victory of the working class."
The man standing to his left speaks. "And you aren't willing to give us that. You are a reformist, nothing more. Olson and Norris and LaFollette are your allies."
He seems like he's going to say more, but the man on Schenk's right interrupts him. "Comrade Reed has demonstrated his commitment and courage many times. The Red Guards have been unleashed on reactionaries time and time again. A tactical disagreement does not make him a reformist."
It's rather obvious what they are doing.
Annoyingly, that doesn't mean it fails.
The two men to Schenk's side keep badgering you, one offering praise and being conciliatory, while the other offers insults and snarls aggressively.
And all the while Schenk keeps the peace, handling things. You are put at a disadvantage by the circumstances, you are outnumbered and on unfamiliar ground.
And so you find yourself questioning your own judgement.
So you turn the tables.
Schenk wants cooperation with the Red Army Faction? Well, what will the workers get out of it?
You make him describe what he envisions, treating it like any of the operations he has proposed to you.
Some of them seem half-mad schemes, like training livestock to be part of the "total war" he envisions as an inevitability.
Some of them seem almost counterproductively vicious, like the taking of hostages from capitalist families and direct attacks on churches.
Some of them seem bold but potent, like the creation of "do-or-die" squads from the most determined Red Guards to be used for near-suicidal missions.
And some of them are just common sense, like the expansion of the Revolutionary Guards so that they can be used to more effectively investigate and defeat counterrevolutionary plots.
He has a lot to say, and a lot to offer. But what the cost is he doesn't say.
But you can guess at what it would be anyway.
At a minimum, he will want to allow for cooperation between the SPA's networks and the RAF's networks.
He will also probably want protection for RAF agents committing their acts of total war.
There might be more, but you will have to decide.
Schenk, seeing you hesitant, begins to boast of some of their operations. He describes how the RAF has assassinated leaders of Share Our Wealth Clubs throughout California, disrupting such counterrevolutionary organizations. He brags of leaving the mutilated bodies of Pinkertons outside the homes of other strikebreakers.
And he smiles as he speaks of it.
You have some choices to make...
[] Fully reject any cooperation with him and his ilk. This will certainly cause Schenk to leave, and may provoke a dangerous reaction. However, you trust the loyalty of your guards.
[] Delay and buy time. He will continue working with you to advance the cause of the proletariat, but he will likely be maneuvering to persuade you to accede to his point of view. Of course, you can do the same...and you can reopen negotiations later.
[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
-[] Work with Schenk to ensure members of the Commission of Revolutionary Defense are wholly dedicated to the cause. (+5 points)
-[] Provide financial aid to the Red Army Faction. (+3 points. -2 Resources per month, may cause a political reaction if discovered)
-[] Agree to allow Red Army Faction members the protection of the SPA, including encouraging cadres to hide them, letting them use Commission resources such as safehouses, and providing legal defenses for captured faction members. (+5 points, may cause a political reaction.)
-[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[] Agree to begin working to marginalize reformists within the party. (+3 points)
-[] Ask Schenk to step down from his position and let you appoint a replacement without rancor. (-5 points)
-[] Ask for major Red Army Faction operations to only be launched with your permission. (-4 points)
-[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[] Ask to be provided a list of RAF members. (-6 points)
-[] Ask that they do not even consider attacking members of the SPA. (-3 points.)
You are only accompanied by a single guard, one of your most trusted - Isaac Goldstein has been in the party since he was a boy, and he has shed blood in your defense no less than four times. Even so, the relative lack of protection is enough to make you uneasy. Every rustle of bushes in the night or snap of a twig has your head pivoting as you try desperately to track the sound.
You find the bench that was described, then the hollow in a tree beside it. You slip in a letter with a time and a place and leave, gladly returning to your bed and your wife's arms.
Two days later you again leave with only Isaac for company.
You make your way down into the city, into the Lower East Side, where Jewish immigrants in their thousands have arrived seeking to prosper in a free land, and now seek to make the land free. You wind your way through streets festooned with banners of the grain and gear and six pointed stars, patrolled by men in yarmulkes and red armbands.
You find a little kosher butcher shop run by a man Schenk assured you was discreet.
Waiting for you are three men. Two you do not recognize.
One is Schenk.
He holds up a hand, speaking before you can.
"I'm sorry about all this, Jack. I wanted to simply tell you the truth, but I was outvoted. In any case, you know now. I am a member of the Red Army Faction. And of course, you already know our demands: Class war, unrelenting and unceasing, until the red flag is flown sea to shining sea. There can be no hesitation, no betrayal of our principles, no peace until we have triumphed. And there is no price that shouldn't be paid for the victory of the working class."
The man standing to his left speaks. "And you aren't willing to give us that. You are a reformist, nothing more. Olson and Norris and LaFollette are your allies."
He seems like he's going to say more, but the man on Schenk's right interrupts him. "Comrade Reed has demonstrated his commitment and courage many times. The Red Guards have been unleashed on reactionaries time and time again. A tactical disagreement does not make him a reformist."
It's rather obvious what they are doing.
Annoyingly, that doesn't mean it fails.
The two men to Schenk's side keep badgering you, one offering praise and being conciliatory, while the other offers insults and snarls aggressively.
And all the while Schenk keeps the peace, handling things. You are put at a disadvantage by the circumstances, you are outnumbered and on unfamiliar ground.
And so you find yourself questioning your own judgement.
So you turn the tables.
Schenk wants cooperation with the Red Army Faction? Well, what will the workers get out of it?
You make him describe what he envisions, treating it like any of the operations he has proposed to you.
Some of them seem half-mad schemes, like training livestock to be part of the "total war" he envisions as an inevitability.
Some of them seem almost counterproductively vicious, like the taking of hostages from capitalist families and direct attacks on churches.
Some of them seem bold but potent, like the creation of "do-or-die" squads from the most determined Red Guards to be used for near-suicidal missions.
And some of them are just common sense, like the expansion of the Revolutionary Guards so that they can be used to more effectively investigate and defeat counterrevolutionary plots.
He has a lot to say, and a lot to offer. But what the cost is he doesn't say.
But you can guess at what it would be anyway.
At a minimum, he will want to allow for cooperation between the SPA's networks and the RAF's networks.
He will also probably want protection for RAF agents committing their acts of total war.
There might be more, but you will have to decide.
Schenk, seeing you hesitant, begins to boast of some of their operations. He describes how the RAF has assassinated leaders of Share Our Wealth Clubs throughout California, disrupting such counterrevolutionary organizations. He brags of leaving the mutilated bodies of Pinkertons outside the homes of other strikebreakers.
And he smiles as he speaks of it.
You have some choices to make...
[] Fully reject any cooperation with him and his ilk. This will certainly cause Schenk to leave, and may provoke a dangerous reaction. However, you trust the loyalty of your guards.
[] Delay and buy time. He will continue working with you to advance the cause of the proletariat, but he will likely be maneuvering to persuade you to accede to his point of view. Of course, you can do the same...and you can reopen negotiations later.
[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
-[] Work with Schenk to ensure members of the Commission of Revolutionary Defense are wholly dedicated to the cause. (+5 points)
-[] Provide financial aid to the Red Army Faction. (+3 points. -2 Resources per month, may cause a political reaction if discovered)
-[] Agree to allow Red Army Faction members the protection of the SPA, including encouraging cadres to hide them, letting them use Commission resources such as safehouses, and providing legal defenses for captured faction members. (+5 points, may cause a political reaction.)
-[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[] Agree to begin working to marginalize reformists within the party. (+3 points)
-[] Ask Schenk to step down from his position and let you appoint a replacement without rancor. (-5 points)
-[] Ask for major Red Army Faction operations to only be launched with your permission. (-4 points)
-[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[] Ask to be provided a list of RAF members. (-6 points)
-[] Ask that they do not even consider attacking members of the SPA. (-3 points.)
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
-[Y] Work with Schenk to ensure members of the Commission of Revolutionary Defense are wholly dedicated to the cause. (+5 points)
-[Y] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[Y] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[Y] Agree to begin working to marginalize reformists within the party. (+3 points)
-[Y] Ask for major Red Army Faction operations to only be launched with your permission. (-4 points)
-[Y] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[Y] Ask that they do not even consider attacking members of the SPA. (-3 points.)
This plan leaves us at +2. It's all about avoiding direct, traceable ties, while helping reign in their worst impulses. They're not wrong after all. It was always going to be war.
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Alright. Well then. I wouldn't be opposed if the RAF just didn't exist but well... it does. And it's gonna keep existing. With that in mind, I feel like we should arrange some sort of deal to try and keep them on a leash. Otherwise they're gonna continue doing rather horrific things but with no way for us to rein them in.
The question is what are we willing to give up for that. But we should also keep the RAF at an arm's length.
[ ] Plan: Leashing the Devil
-[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
--[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
--[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
--[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
I don't trust the "marginalize Reformists" because that strikes me as "we're gonna be trying to get rid of the Parliamentarians." Information sharing is something that isn't that bad and makes sense just from a practical standpoint if we're actually going to be working with them. "Stepping up campaign against reactionaries" is also worrying, but we've kinda been doing that anyway.
Overall, this is a minimalist deal trying to take the least odious stuff so that we can then reign in their worst acts. Of course, "Don't even consider going after SPA members" needing another -3 makes me even more alarmed, but I'm not sure if there's any other concessions I'd be willing to sacrifice for that.
With that in mind, I think this is a must-have. From a sheer moral standpoint, and a reminder of our promise to Butler to try our utmost to make sure this sort of stuff doesn't happen.
The question is what are we willing to give up for that. But we should also keep the RAF at an arm's length.
[ ] Plan: Leashing the Devil
-[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
--[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
--[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
--[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
I don't trust the "marginalize Reformists" because that strikes me as "we're gonna be trying to get rid of the Parliamentarians." Information sharing is something that isn't that bad and makes sense just from a practical standpoint if we're actually going to be working with them. "Stepping up campaign against reactionaries" is also worrying, but we've kinda been doing that anyway.
Overall, this is a minimalist deal trying to take the least odious stuff so that we can then reign in their worst acts. Of course, "Don't even consider going after SPA members" needing another -3 makes me even more alarmed, but I'm not sure if there's any other concessions I'd be willing to sacrifice for that.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
[] Plan: Leashing the Devil
-[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
I support this.
-[] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
I support this.
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
I think I'd rather drop this so we don't have to do either the CRD overview (that grants Schenk a huge amount of control there which I'm very scared of) or "marginalize Reformists" (I'm worried about what this would mean for the Parliamentarians.)
Also, not being ultimately responsible for all of the Red Army Faction's major operations might be a useful degree of separation anyway.
Still a Moratorium for the next 50 minutes.
Hrm... On further reflection, I do think it'd be really important to make sure the RAF isn't targeting SPA members. But... I'm really not sure what other concessions I'd be willing to make for that.
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Wow! Did not see it coming that he would be RAF, but also makes total sense.
I would want want at the least work with them in some form such as information sharing, but think that material support might also go a long way...
Edit: I also would want them to not target SPA members?
I would want want at the least work with them in some form such as information sharing, but think that material support might also go a long way...
Edit: I also would want them to not target SPA members?
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Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
I want nothing that directly connects the SPA with the RAF, be it funding or official protection.
But yes, I think we need to work with them to keep them on a leash, and that in turn means prohibiting their worst actions at the bare minimum. Making sure they're not murdering SPA members and at least getting some warning on their major operations also seems good.
But yes, I think we need to work with them to keep them on a leash, and that in turn means prohibiting their worst actions at the bare minimum. Making sure they're not murdering SPA members and at least getting some warning on their major operations also seems good.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't think we can afford, or should afford, to keep them from targeting SPA members. It sucks but I think we need to give them relatively little help and relatively few concessions and restrictions just to see if they can even color inside the lines and actually achieve anything meaningful.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
I'm terrified of this option because I'm pretty sure the RAF wants to gut the Parliamentarians as well. But just to be sure and see if this is a concession we can afford to make, @notbirdofprey what exactly would this entail?
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Plan: Si vis pacem…
[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
-[Y] Work with Schenk to ensure members of the Commission of Revolutionary Defense are wholly dedicated to the cause. (+5 points)
-[Y] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[Y] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[Y] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[Y] Ask that they do not even consider attacking members of the SPA. (-3 points.)
This is a new plan based on above suggestions, which leaves us at +3. Again focused on reining in the worst impulses while leaving no direct traces. I agree that targeting the reformists would be really bad for the movement.
[] Lay an offer on the table. The Red Army Faction have some decent points, and they are hardly the most intolerable people you have worked with. But they do need to be kept on a leash. (The Red Army Faction becomes a faction similar to other SPA factions with their own special ability group. They also have an additional stat, Cooperation, which represents how inclined they are to listen to you as opposed to how much they like you. Initial Relations and Cooperation will be determined by the point total of the offer. Concessions add points, demands remove them.)
-[Y] Work with Schenk to ensure members of the Commission of Revolutionary Defense are wholly dedicated to the cause. (+5 points)
-[Y] Agree to share information between the Commission and the RAF. (+2 points)
-[Y] Agree to begin stepping up the campaign against reactionaries. (+3 points)
-[Y] Ask that certain categories of actions such as the taking of hostages or attacks on churches be restricted. (-4 points)
-[Y] Ask that they do not even consider attacking members of the SPA. (-3 points.)
This is a new plan based on above suggestions, which leaves us at +3. Again focused on reining in the worst impulses while leaving no direct traces. I agree that targeting the reformists would be really bad for the movement.
Their priority would be the right wing of the Parliamentarians and people like Olson who are aligned with you but not actually part of the SPA.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I feel like this is just the definition of trap. "Yes, let's definitely make sure that Scheneck's control of our entire security apparatus is even more total."
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Expected and feared as much but... what sort of actions would it involve taking?
- Location
- Reno
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I mean, I mostly agree with the RAF so I'm all for giving them full cooperation while reigning in their more cringe and commandist sides
I asked this in discord
@notbirdofprey in which cases would spa members be targeted? Where they are corrupt or just reformist etc?
Answer was:
Corrupt or viewed as treacherous.
So maybe this isn't as vital as it seems?