Therapy, a Wormfic

Who's the guy with the derail counter?

Though, tomorrow's chapter I think is going to cause another one. Good thing is I've anticipated it and can explain my decisions this time instead of being blindsided by people thinking that characters dying in a world where death is a given is terrible writing.

Except this isn't a derail. It's explicitly about a character in the story and discussing why actions that took place in the story seem odd/strange/etc. We're not talking about something that has no bearing on the story, in fact this is something that many, including you, have hinted at as being pivitol TO the story. Which is why there is an argument about it.

I see no reason why a mod has to step in unless it gets to a point that it is disrupting the story and 2-3 pages of debating aren't that bad, now if it were 5-10 pages, then yes a "Stop it" should be said. Enthusiast above your post is the first person I've seen in this debate that said "Stop it." And I am willing to do so. You don't have to threaten people with the mods just because this thread has drawn them several times.
 
Who's the guy with the derail counter?

Though, tomorrow's chapter I think is going to cause another one. Good thing is I've anticipated it and can explain my decisions this time instead of being blindsided by people thinking that characters dying in a world where death is a given is terrible writing.
A) Almost all of this has been discusion about the story, so no. Not a derail.
B) It's not that Danny died, it's how he died that's the problem.
 
A) Almost all of this has been discusion about the story, so no. Not a derail.
B) It's not that Danny died, it's how he died that's the problem.

How would I kill him, then? I really don't subscribe to your 'death should be dramatic' philosophy at all.

Maybe because of my job. Probably because of my job, actually.

I don't know if you've read everything in this thread, but I'm an EMT. I've seen a lot of death. Perhaps not as much as some people in the field, because I'm in private service instead of 911, but I've seen my fair share. Let's see if I can remember...

-First day precepting. First run. Guy collapses in his apartment. I man the BVM on the way to the ER as the medic does...medic things. Come back to the same ER later, guy is likely going to be declared dead. Guy has no family members, an ex-wife who honestly seemed uninterested. He's dying alone.

-Helipad transport. Guy shot himself in the face. Brains leaking onto the medic's leg. Guy's heart stops twice on the drive over, but they keep bringing him back because he has a donor card. They were literally doing CPR for spare parts. No family present, no last words I ever heard.

-Two infants. Less said about those the better. I'm sure there was crying once the families actually arrived at the hospital, but there was none while I was there. For everyone in the room at the infant PICU, this is just their job.

-Woman coming out of ICU. Totally unconscious, no responses of any kind to any stimuli. You hear about death rattles, but you don't know what they are 'till you've heard one. Get her onto the bed at hospice, nurses about to take responsibility for the patient. I glance over, and ask the question, "Is she even breathing?" Nope. I tactfully hand the DNR to the attending physician. I actually think of this one as a funny story because she was in a bizarre kind of limbo where she was on their bed (their responsibility), but they hadn't signed for the patient yet (our responsibility). They just took care of it because, hey, hospice. No family. No crying. Not dramatic.

-Woman got T-boned by a semi. Still alive when the helicopter lands, but her face is wrecked and she's bleeding everywhere. I pass by the ER 15 minutes later and she's already been declared. Undramatic, unexpected. No preamble, no husband to cry over her broken body.

If I had to guess, I've seen more death than you, and the one thing that gets to you after you've seen enough is how completely ordinary it is. Death happens. All the time and all around you. It's not dramatic, there's usually no last words. Family crying as you pass into the void is a dream, not a reality, for most. Death is violent, it is cruel, it is sudden, it happens without warning. It's not a fucking plot device.

That's what happened to Danny.

Edit: That sounds really dark. I'm fine, guys. It's shocking what people can get used to even without a multidimensional space whale constantly making you stable.

Editedit: I think of the derail counter as a running joke, not a ritual summoning circle for Ol- mods. For mods. I don't expect or want anyone to be infracted for this.
 
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So that's the reason why it was so sudden.

How sudden would it be for Taylor to snap and use her powers offensively, like say rendering them brain dead or even gifting them with more mental trauma than a PTSD victim?
 
It's not a fucking plot device.

While I agree with your sentiment entirely...this is a problem.

When you use it in media, it's a plot device.

It's always a plot device, because it is a device used to move the plot of a story that is being written.

In real life, death might be cruel, uncaring, sudden, violent and needless, but in a story, it's an act. It's ALWAYS an act. It is a deliberate choice made by a singular being (you) to either direct the plot, affect the feelings of the audience, or otherwise bend the world into something you want to create.

I had zero problems with the actual update, Danny dying felt a little forced, but only because the attack felt forced. Him dying came naturally from what you set up, but make no mistake. You set it up.
 
also if she is immune to stress. can she second trigger? with pain maybe?
She probably can't second trigger, you need to psychologically break for that to happen. She can't psychologically break. She's the Kryptonian of trauma, utterly invulnerable to psychological harm.
Can she feel grief? Anger? Revenge? Even for this one moment?
Sure, why not? She's sane, she's not a Vulcan.
Coil, being Coil, is probably running safe backup timeline. After all, his triggerman did get captured alive and is now remorseful about what he's done. (First rule of assassination: Kill the assassins.) That means he's got a go/no go running. Whether the bomb goes off in both timelines is up for grabs, as we don't if the split was done before or after sending the note to Skidmark.
The chapter wasn't from Coil's PoV, so that's not even a thing. If it's not from Coil's PoV, it's not a timeline that can be dropped.
-I killed him because this story was too happy to be in the Wormverse and I needed something to kick off the grimdark.
Grimdark is not a thing to aspire to, you know. It's origin as a word is basically from 40K, which is an over-the-top parody of "dark future" settings. Calling something grimdark is not a compliment.

Also, why the hell does anyone have a problem with Danny dying? It's an event in the story, what's the big deal?
 
There's a difference there. If Danny's death needs to have a point it's the point he just laid out in his post. Shit happens, and sometimes that's what the author's getting at.
 
So that's the reason why it was so sudden.

How sudden would it be for Taylor to snap and use her powers offensively, like say rendering them brain dead or even gifting them with more mental trauma than a PTSD victim?
Hmmmm.
That's second trigger material right there.
Of course, the question becomes how one manages to second trigger her, all considering. Though, I bet bonesaw could do it, given resources and time.
 
Hmmmm.
That's second trigger material right there.
Of course, the question becomes how one manages to second trigger her, all considering. Though, I bet bonesaw could do it, given resources and time.
Skitter had a second trigger. My bet is that she had it immediately after the first trigger when her first power didn't come with the required secondary multitasking powers.

I'm not saying that did happen here, but it potentially could have. Same trigger event, after all.
 
First person who bitches about the story not being cliche -snip-
Second bitcher -snip-
Look! The first bitcher is still bitching! -snip-
A third bitcher has entered the game! -snip-
A character dying in someone's arms is a cliche... If the author did write it that way some OTHER jerk would be bitching for bitcheenhundred words instead of you three bitching about the author being lazy...
Take it to nobodycaresville!

Edit: Also, I got trampled by a horse once... I totally could have died, instead I got kicked in the shin and smacked in the face by its chest... Completely uninjured otherwise... Very lucky! However, five feet away from me a lady got a big dent in her head from a hoof... I don't even notice until after I picked myself up from having flipped backwards and around so that I was 3 feet up a little hill and had my head resting where my feet had been...
There is no way anybody would notice the lady getting her head stoved in instead of focusing on their own OH SHIT! moment!

Similarly, Taylor just got shot twice and hit by an explosive shock wave...
She wasn't focusing on anything but her own body signals!
 
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Skitter had a second trigger. My bet is that she had it immediately after the first trigger when her first power didn't come with the required secondary multitasking powers.

I'm not saying that did happen here, but it potentially could have. Same trigger event, after all.
I'm a little shaky on my canon, but wasn't there a third trigger via bonesaw at some point?
And then Khepri!Taylor was a deliberate ForScience!FourthTrigger?

With your Taylor, the only other improvements or additions I can think of would be making it so she can manually pick which disorders to cure and which ones to leave, and then improving her range from 'touch' to 'line of sight'.
 
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I'm a little shaky on my canon, but wasn't there a third trigger via bonesaw at some point?
And then Khepri!Taylor was a deliberate ForScience!FourthTrigger?

With your Taylor, the only other improvements or additions I can think of would be making it so she can manually pick which disorders to cure and which ones to leave, and then improving her range from 'touch' to 'line of sight'.

Grue was second trigger by Bonesaw. Skitter could have gone for her 'third' trigger by Bonesaw, but went with third trigger by Panacea instead. Nobody that I know of ever had a fourth trigger.
 
I'm a little shaky on my canon, but wasn't there a third trigger via bonesaw at some point?
And then Khepri!Taylor was a deliberate ForScience!FourthTrigger?

With your Taylor, the only other improvements or additions I can think of would be making it so she can manually pick which disorders to cure and which ones to leave, and then improving her range from 'touch' to 'line of sight'.
No, canon specifically said that 3rd triggers were impossible.
Also, why the hell does anyone have a problem with Danny dying? It's an event in the story, what's the big deal?
Well the very first post that started this snowball was expressing exasperation, since Parallel just did pretty much the same exact thing a couple days ago. Combined with how touchy some people feel since authors in the past have killed him because "having to deal with him existing is too difficult", something about how he's always a drag on Taylor having character development or some other bashing bullshit?
 
How would I kill him, then? I really don't subscribe to your 'death should be dramatic' philosophy at all.
You would do it in a way that gives his death meaning to the story. Faceless numbers get killed off during Endbringer battles, with the occasional named hero or villain to drive the point home that "Yes, everyone one can die ingloriously." but that is an Endbringer fight where the optimistic death toll is 1 in 4. Having a named character with emotional attachment to the main hero killed off-screen is just annoying to me. You know what fic did the parents dying off screen thing well?
Atonement
They died while she was trying to save them, then realized afterwords that all her efforts were for nothing. That has emotional impact.

You hear about death rattles, but you don't know what they are 'till you've heard one.

I am aware of what death rattles sound like, my father died quite literally in my arms as I was tying to lift him, bodily into our truck to rush him to the hospital. He died in less than 15 minutes. Believe me I am aware how fast people can die in real life. Except, this story isn't real life. It is fantasy. More specifically, a story where the main, named characters have actual impact on the story, because unlike we humans they are there for a purpose in the story. Or at least should be since having a character there for no reason except to be there is wasteful writing. If you're going to kill off Danny and want Taylor to actually have feelings for it. Put her in a no win situation where Danny's life is on the line, dangle the carrot then rip it away mid sentence. THAT has impact, THAT is a gut punch for those who expect the status quo to remain the same. You want emotion? You want to make a useless character at least useful for the plot? Do it that way. Make his death to the main character have meaning rather than just reading it off as a statistic.
Death happens. All the time and all around you. It's not dramatic, there's usually no last words. Family crying as you pass into the void is a dream, not a reality, for most. Death is violent, it is cruel, it is sudden, it happens without warning. It's not a fucking plot device.

That's what happened to Danny.

This is an urban fantasy setting, you don't have to make everything super realistic, in fact most read fantasy stories as escapism, which is why characters dying randomly pisses people off. Why do you think people have such a love/hate relationship with George R.R Martin? Because in GoT it's two for one killing season, buy one get one free, for almost no reason sometimes. Yes people die, sometimes for no reason. That doesn't mean everyone has to in your story, or any story for that matter since the point of the story is emotional investment, which is lacking here. I'm no longer immersed because the character died in a way that was neither logical to the plot or reasonable to character development. As you said, you came up with it mostly off the top of your head, this... irritates some people. Me included...
 
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You would do it in a way that gives his death meaning to the story. Faceless numbers get killed off during Endbringer battles, with the occasional named hero or villain to drive the point home that "Yes, everyone one can die ingloriously." but that is an Endbringer fight where the optimistic death toll is 1 in 4. Having a named character with emotional attachment to the main hero killed off-screen is just annoying to me. You know what fic did the parents dying off screen thing well?
Atonement
They died while she was trying to save them, then realized afterwords that all her efforts were for nothing. That has emotional impact.



I am aware of what death rattles sound like, my father died quite literally in my arms as I was tying to lift him, bodily into our truck to rush him to the hospital. He died in less than 15 minutes. Believe me I am aware how fast people can die in real life. Except, this story isn't real life. It is fantasy. More specifically, a story where the main, named characters have actual impact on the story, because unlike we humans they are there for a purpose in the story. Or at least should be since having a character there for no reason except to be there is wasteful writing. If you're going to kill off Danny and want Taylor to actually have feelings for it. Put her in a no win situation where Danny's life is on the line, dangle the carrot then rip it away mid sentence. THAT has impact, THAT is a gut punch for those who expect the status quo to remain the same. You want emotion? You want to make a useless character at least useful for the plot? Do it that way. Make his death to the main character have meaning rather than just reading it off as a statistic.


This is an urban fantasy setting, you don't have to make everything super realistic, in fact most read fantasy stories as escapism, which is why characters dying randomly pisses people off. Why do you think people have such a love/hate relationship with George R.R Martin? Because in his story it's two for one killing season, buy one get one free, for almost no reason sometimes. Yes people die, sometimes for no reason. That doesn't mean everyone has to in your story, or any story for that matter since the point of the story is emotional investment, which is lacking here. I'm no longer immersed because the character died in a way that was neither logical to the plot or reasonable to character development. As you said, you came up with it mostly off the top of your head, this... irritates some people. Me included...

I'm very sorry to hear about your dad.

I guess I just don't think about death in that way. At all. Your proposed fix sounds cool, and there might be a way to make it work, but it also seems like a cliche. The kind of thing a comic supervillain does while cackling madly, rather than the kind of thing that might actually happen in real life. People dying offscreen, as it were, happens all the time in real life.

I really hate comic supervillains, just as an aside. The number of times the Joker could have just blown up the Batman, or the Batman could have shot the Joker...ugh.
 
I guess I just don't think about death in that way. At all. Your proposed fix sounds cool, and there might be a way to make it work, but it also seems like a cliche. The kind of thing a comic supervillain does while cackling madly, rather than the kind of thing that might actually happen in real life. People dying offscreen, as it were, happens all the time in real life.

Well... we kinda are talking about a work that is basically nothing but superheroes and cackling villains, granted it's a deconstruction and something that would fit in perfectly during the gritty Dark Age of comic books, aka the 90's Still, aside from the Slaughterhouse 9, Endbringers and Scion most of the Grimdark isn't actually that high. In fact, if things stayed at street level rather than going off the rails during the S9 arc and then the multiverse spanning clusterfuck that was Golden Morning, Worm would be fairly average for a mid to late 90's Batman, Punisher or reverse Spiderman story.

I really hate comic supervillains, just as an aside. The number of times the Joker could have just blown up the Batman, or the Batman could have shot the Joker...ugh.

That's sort of the point at this point. Batman is perfectly incorruptible and the Joker is irredeemably corrupted. It's this good vs evil dichotomy that makes that nemesis pairing work. Sure, Batman can be seen as negligent and not looking too far into the future about things, but its not entirely his fault. He has a line he doesn't cross and he sticks by it. He views rule of law as something that should be infallible. That it isn't, isn't his problem to fix. It's not his fault Joker escapes all the time, it is the institutions that house him that are at fault. Which Batman has no control over and he respects law enforcement too much to just take justice into his own hands. He is not there to dispense justice, he is there to make sure that justice can be dispensed.

And the Joker? Well, Batman is just too fun to kill. He views their nemesis pairing like the game he treats it as. In fact the only time the Joker has ever been seen as truly weak and called for Batman's help is when it was almost assured that he would die an inglorious and ignoble death at the hands of some no-name Joe.

But however this is starting to be a derail, so I'll just leave this bit of information and contribute no longer to it.
 
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Great chapter, I liked Amy's use of her power!
Welp, Danny sure got stuffed in the fridge. I bet that's gonna be an unpopular decision.
 
I have two things to say here. The first is that this is the curse of sequential reading. When you only get one chapter at a time, and get to dwell on it for hours or days before you can keep reading, you have time to develop all these ideas and opinions, and then discuss them. When you're reading an archive, there's no real time for this kind of thing to happen, because you form your vague thoughts and theories while already clicking on to the next chapter. A lot of the negative reaction to this chapter almost certainly would not exist if this fic were already finished and released all at once, because readers would instantly be able to see what happens next, and whether Danny's death ends up making the story better, or worse. As-is, we're just spinning our wheels, waiting to see how right we are.

And the bitching continues....
The second is that COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW OTHER PEOPLE KEEP COMPLAINING IS LITERALLY THE FUCKING WORST THING A HUMAN CAN DO. PLEASE STOP.
 
I wonder if Taylor could end up like Elixir from Marvel?
One power heals, the other corrupts
 
Warning: Bitching about bitching doesn't stop the bitching
And the bitching continues....
The second is that COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW OTHER PEOPLE KEEP COMPLAINING IS LITERALLY THE FUCKING WORST THING A HUMAN CAN DO. PLEASE STOP.
And then he bitches that I bitched about people bitching...
Have at least a modicum of self awareness, yeah?
bitching about bitching doesn't stop the bitching But infractions and threadbans will.

Am I understood?
 
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