The Warcrafter
- Thread starter RHJunior
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....Interesting?
INTERESTING?!
Contessa is the least interesting character in the entire story except for possibly Coil! Hint: "I win" is, in fact, exactly the sort of power a five year old would invent. There's nothing interesting about it. Tacking on half a dozen restrictions really doesn't change that at all.
People who like Worm canon are annoying.
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To be fair, she's also a massive narrative hurdle, because if you start going against her path, she'll damn well do whatever she can to get back on it, so there's two options, snowball until you can wreck the plan entirely, or no-sell the bitch. Turns out the only answer to canon-sue is to take her out back with a shotgun.
At least the author made sane choices involving her character and dependence on the path.
Wobulator
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Except then you get to overcome that.
A good villain arc is one where the villain starts off invincible, and through planning and strategizing, the heroes manage to outwit or overpower them and take them down.
This is probably the classic villain arc, and for a very good reason- it works, and it works well. Contessa is an excellent villain to suit these purposes.
No-selling her and turning her into a fucking mental five-year-old is not effective use of a villain. It's an effective way to show the author has no sense of dramatic tension whatsoever.
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Except that wasn't her purpose in canon.
In Canon she literally... NEVER... loses. All the way to the very end where she puts a bullet in Taylor's brain. As sdwood put it: the sort of power a five year old would invent. She was written as a God Mode I-win-forever villain, in accordance with Wildbow's "Tumblr Angst" motif-- where God hates you, the universe is hell, and things like hope, faith, trust, and good are for suckers.
Turning her into a mental five-year-old wasn't all that hard, really. I'm far from the first author to point out that, due to the nature of "Path to Victory" she's barely used her own brain for anything since Triggering at that age, so what sort of mind do you expect her to have? If anything it's a case of Reality Ensues. Wildbow's pathological allergy to long-known bits of science like probability, chaos theory, BASIC MATH, etc. make most of his omnipotent villainous premises ridiculous. Monsters that are barely 10 meters tall that outmass entire solar systems... precogs who effectively run 100% accurate 'computer simulations' of the entire world down to the last atom for days at a stretch (we pause now as every student of higher mathematics visualizes their hands twisting Wildbow's neck like a balloon animal....) Dinah Alcott is just about the only believable precog in the stories, because her power works with PROBABILITIES.
A woman who can make a PERFECT PLAN down to the last finger-twitch and toe-wiggle who NEVER falls afoul of Chaos fluttering its butterfly wings? No-selling her should have been a given, early on, in ANY Worm story... including canon... if it weren't for people's perverse fascination with wallowing in nihilistic, hopeless despair and calling it a PLOT.
Be thankful I handled Contessa the way I did. My original plan was to have her arrive, do a double somersault over the awe-stricken protagonists' heads, and plunge headfirst into a running wood chipper.
I hate shit-tier villains, and God Mode Sues are shit-tier villains.
Now, the accusation that I "nerfed" Armsmaster. .......eeeeeehhhhh, not really. He's still darned effective, he's smart, he's in fact pivotal in bringing down Coil. He's also honorable and (generally) takes the high road.
But he's such a canonical stick-up-the-butt, and so obsessed with his image (recall that it was HIS EGO and HIS CANONICAL DICKERY that helped turn Taylor outright hostile to the PRT and the Wards), that I couldn't resist making a running gag out of Bayleaf pranking him.
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Wobulator
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Yes, she never lost. Right up until, you know, the Cauldron base got attacked by the Irregulars and she was shown to be able to form plans and react just fine to her power suddenly not working.
Given that she can interact just fine with Eidolon, who's another precog blind spot, you're just flat-out wrong.
Or the Irregular attack.
Or post-canon, where she stopped using her power and continued to be a functional human being.
Hmmm. It appears that a universe revolving around giant space whales and superheroes doesn't hold up well to rigorous examination.
Truly, this is a surprise.
Well, I'm glad you know what you hate.
I mean, it has no relationship to canon whatsoever and was, as best I can tell, invented wholesale from your own fever dreams, but hey. You do you.
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Technically, her power worked just fine all the time. She never actually entered the Mantellum's AoE, so while she couldn't predict actions of those within that AoE, she could use her power to stay outside of that AoE without any issues.
Or maybe she used her power to pretend to be a functional human being?
JoshuaSweetvale
Insectovore
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Or maybe she used her power to pretend to be a functional human being?
"Modeling" things like Endbringers and Scion has been a Thinker staple in the second half of canon.
And despite my earlier criticism of eating Taylor's agency...
I'm 100% for a straight-up doylist nerf to just how shards do shit. The "everything is portals and impossibly accurate math" explaination is patently ridiculous. MORE ridiculous than straight-up magic.
For instance Coil using some variant on the Entities's multiverse-navigation makes so much more sense than modeling BOTH paths.
PtV is special, and the Thinker Superman the rest of the setting inevitably revolves around. It really is bullshit. And as said below, can probably truly look into the future. But that's also why every damn CYOA SI chooses precog immunity.
Personally I've always been favourable to the nerf-idea that PtV is just as much of a discord fairy as the other "plan" shards we've seen. Shards. Push. Conflict.
How much of the difference between Earth Aleph and Bet has been Fortuna (and not Ziz) unknowingly or unthinkingly arranging the deaths of real-life sane senators, pragmatic presidents and other concillators.
The whole 'let the Slaughterhouse 9 and their intercontinental equivalents run amok' plan is pretty obviously just PtV baying for blood.
The same can be said about everything from the hero/villain game to build up cape numbers, to the legislation pushed through to sideline rogues, to the Case 53's being mindwiped then thrown into random cities. It's only blank-slate human nature that so many Case 53's are heroes and not Youkai monsters of the week.
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It should be noted PtV does not work solely on simulating shit, it can also just straight up look into the future.
Overall while I like the premise of Warcraft/worm, if you strip that away this becomes a pretty bland take on the worm SI with some annoying fanon mixed in.
Overall while I like the premise of Warcraft/worm, if you strip that away this becomes a pretty bland take on the worm SI with some annoying fanon mixed in.
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Staff Notice - Rule 3 Do not be Disruptive. Do not obliquely attack another poster like this or feed into the general crowding out occurring here.
Everyone rejoice with me about how much we love this god tier canon Mary Sue who can predict and see anything except the entities and end bringers. Yes, let us rejoice the fact that path to victory is so broken almost every worm fanfic has some form of blind spot for the main characters. Yes, let us rejoice these butt hurt fans that are mad that contessa is no longer their op goddess of worm. Completely ignoring the fact she never lost to anybody who doesn't have precog immunity. Literally the only time she actually was on the back end was the irregulars which has anti precog fields. Also like I have said before. If you hate the way the story is or is going. Don't read it. Everyone has different tastes and opinion in stories so not all stories are going to be exactly the way you like it. Some people actually like stories where the good guys aren't being punished cause the universe hates hopes and good people.
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The "don't read it if you don't want to lick it's asshole" opinion doesn't really fly on a forum. If you don't like that people don't love the ever-loving crap out every single aspect of a single fic then just stay over on fanfiction.net where people can't really communicate. As you yourself stated; everyone has different tastes and opinions.
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I think that the reason that Worm has so many fanfics, compared to other franchises, is because almost everyone, for one reason or another, HATES CANON WORM.
Contessa and her power is quite obviously the thing that the author hates the most, and therefore, he's changing it. Which is the author's perogative.
If this isn't your type of fic, then why are you reading it again? Attempting to change the author's mind about a core tenet of the fic, simply because you disagree with the author about how "bad" something is, well, that seems rather silly to me. Like arguing with God about how you don't like the color of trees.
I mean, you can do that if that's what you want to do, but it seems rather pointless. Then again, most quote-unquote 'communication' on FF.net is on that tier too, which is why I ported my fanfic over here. The author has made his views on Contessa blindingly clear, so....I don't see the point of arguing with the author over what seems to be a core tenet of his fic?
Contessa and her power is quite obviously the thing that the author hates the most, and therefore, he's changing it. Which is the author's perogative.
If this isn't your type of fic, then why are you reading it again? Attempting to change the author's mind about a core tenet of the fic, simply because you disagree with the author about how "bad" something is, well, that seems rather silly to me. Like arguing with God about how you don't like the color of trees.
I mean, you can do that if that's what you want to do, but it seems rather pointless. Then again, most quote-unquote 'communication' on FF.net is on that tier too, which is why I ported my fanfic over here. The author has made his views on Contessa blindingly clear, so....I don't see the point of arguing with the author over what seems to be a core tenet of his fic?
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I read a story with 0 summary and thus was unable to tell that I wouldn't like it until I invested time in it. This annoys me because I've wasted my time. If I knew this before I read the story I wouldn't have read it in the first place. But this doesn't come up until chapter 9 or roughly 80k words in apart from a brief mention.
The "don't like it don't read it" argument only works if they have some type of summary, because otherwise I have to read it to realize I don't like it. Generally this is why on ffn or sites like this people will say if they are gonna bash a character at the very beginning in a tag
I can understand not liking Contessa but the method the author went about getting rid of her didn't make the most sense, and their whole opinion on her also doesn't make much sense.
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kelgar04
Knight Watcher
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She is literally an "I win button" for most situations minus other plot devices like the end bringers. He made a good point about her having a stunted mental development because she uses her path for most things and is dependent on it.
Also Yes I don't like her sue to the fact most people can throw her into a debate and use her as an I win button which is not intresting or creative it's just boring.
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Personal quote: All fanfics are "fix fics."
(I dare you to say that out loud 5 times...)
People write fanfics in part because they want to "play" in that 'verse... but also because we think we could do BETTER. That the original author missed something, or overlooked an opportunity, or stopped the story too soon.
Rule of thumb: Yer not gonna please everyone any more than the original author did.
The two big complaints I've gotten thus far in this forum? That I "nerfed" Contessa, and that I didn't write out all of Skidmark's profanity for them to enjoy.
Somehow, I think I'll survive all that withering intellectual criticism.
Got another live one over in another forum seething that I've desecrated Wildbow's "nuanced, cutting-edge" superhero magnum opus with my icky philosophies.
Nuanced my double-wide redneck backside...I'd hate to break it to the little Tumblrina, but Wildbow's about as subtle as a billboard screaming "TRY SELF-CUTTING NOW" and superhero deconstructions were already such a dead horse trope that by the time Wildbow showed up to the party there was nothing left but four horseshoes, a vaguely horse-shaped stain on the ground and a circle of pretentious pseudo-artistic pricks yelling and beating it with sticks.
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So are you mad Wildbow did practically the same thing in Ward?
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I never said you had to suck the story's asshole. There's parts of this story that I dislike but there's a difference between critiquing something to make it better and bitching about something cause you hate it.
Critiquing would be. Hey RHJunior while I did enjoy some aspects of your story. I felt that the dramatic introduction of all the warcrafters ruined the pacing. It might have been better to have them form their own groups first before joining bayleafs group so they would have more combat and personal experience or the fact the formatting doesn't look appealing or it could be like this. Hey rhjunior, you have missed some details that were talked about in the canon or lore. I know it'll be hard to go back and fix them but I will tell you about them so you can avoid making future mistakes. That's a critique. Critiques can also be positive but in the end, they are POLITE statements to help the author develop their writing skills. Here's bitching. Fuck you rhjunior for not following blah blah like how it was in canon. Screw You rhjunior for not doing this and that. They are not telling the author how to fix the problems or how to get better. They are just complaining and pointing at it like he's supposed to magically know how to go back and fix it without ruining the stories plot. Also this is something rhjunior has written for his own enjoyment. It doesn't have to be the perfect story. Also you guys can complain as much as you want as long as it's polite and helpful. Just cause you hate or dislike something doesn't mean you have to be rude.
Also @Vyrexuviel sums up with what I am saying pretty well
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You know making a comment like this might not be the best idea where everyone can look back through your history and see your own shit taste.
Wobulator
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Staff Notice - Rule 4 Don't Be Disruptive. Do not dissect an opponent's argument into spaghetti like this.
The Irregular attack was like... one of the two times we actually saw her fight. This isn't a big deal.
Well, this was an incredibly broad statement that almost certainly has no bearing on reality.
Because it gives me a perverse sense of joy to point out actual flaws?
You clearly have not read enough fanfiction if you think this.
Wow! Way to strawman! Congratulations, you win a lollipop.
My criticism is not, fundamentally, that you nerfed Contessa. It's that this entire fic is a poorly-written, poorly-planned excuse for a powerwank that has very little in the way of redeeming factors.
Aaah, name-calling. Truly, you are a shining example of constructive debate to the rest of us.Got another live one over in another forum seething that I've desecrated Wildbow's "nuanced, cutting-edge" superhero magnum opus with my icky philosophies.
Also: The reason people like Worm is not that it's a new deconstruction of the superhero genre. It's that it's an interesting universe with compelling characters.
Frankly, I haven't had the time to read Ward, so I can't really comment on that.
Really? And here I was thinking that I was, in fact, giving meaningful advice. It's not in the format that you want, but... too bad.
Bad fanon. Really prevalent fanon, but still fanon.
EDIT: Huh. Apparently I'm not the only one who feels this way. Genuinely didn't know there was this huge argument about it, until after I posted this.
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Ah. Well, let me clear that up for you: You weren't giving helpful advice, you were just insulting the author, enough that it took me a bit to decide it didn't cross the line into reportable.
Might take that into account in the future.
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Dude just stop. Their is constructive criticism and their is shit-posting because you don't like the way something is portrayed. You are quite firmly in the later right now. You prefer the Original Setting of Worm. Great its a good story. This ultimate is a fanfic by another author who doesn't like Contessa and is not so graciously writing her out of the story. Honestly I don't like the way Alexandria was handled. I would have preferred her to have had a slight breakdown that all her killing and sacrifices where for nothing or her shown that she was acting so hostile to the Warcrafted because she HAD to believe that what she was doing was the right way or Hero's death was her fault and meaningless. I think that would have been better. But guess what the author didn't go that way with it. I would have preferred to see Kaiser and Coil as more intelligent and devious villains who slowly get their hooks into some of the heroes only for it to have been a fake out. It didn't happen that way. But I am enjoying the story I got and while I will mention my suggestions to the authorlord lets face it I know that it is unlikely in the extreme they will every be implemented. I choose to enjoy the story I got.
If something absolutely turns you off a story by all means tell the author but tell them WHY it turns you off. I remember in the Taylor was a Kryptonian fic awhile back they had Krypton die because they were afraid of the Entities getting a hold of their technology....then send Taylor to Earth with their tech... and got very pissy when that was pointed out as kinda dumb to him saying no it was a really noble sacrifice really. So I get where you are coming from. But this isn't exactly the best way to go about doing this.
Wobulator
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Then let me re-state it for the... third time?
This story has no dramatic tension. It's a blatant excuse for a powerwank with warcraft powers. That's all this story is. The premise, as a whole, is fine. SI gets dropped into Worm with Warcraft powers. Could be an interesting story!
Then Armsmaster gets flanderized in the first chapter, Taylor gets shoved into some awkward relationship, Contessa gets no-sold, Armsmaster gets flanderized some more, and it's just generally not a good time.
This story had potential, but the author's complete lack of plotting, outlining, or understanding narrative tension killed it.
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Wobulator, you've spent more energy bitching about how you hate my writing than I spent on writing the story.
Fine, we get it, you hate it, You think it's terrible, a considerable number of people disagree with you,
Feel free now to leave and go not-enjoy something else.
Wobulator
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Believe me, it shows.
*shrug*
Keep on enjoying your hugbox, then.