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The Warcrafter

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Dinode said:
While I don't necessarily disagree with the concept (as I understand it Marijuana was made illegal both because after prohibition the people hunting down alcohol wanted something to do with their lives and they hated Mexicans who used it a lot) I should point out that "quote" was published after Ehrlichman died, when he could no longer dispute it, so it really should be taken with a grain of salt.
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I would like to point out that if the above argument is a legit and valid argument to anything...
... then we might as well abandon recordkeeping and throw the "freedom of information" act out the window.

This is simply because any and all recorded quotes can easily become a "invalid quote", and cannot be used as historical fact. Especially if it is locked up (classified, private memoirs, stuff said after the fact, saved only in private servers, etc) and released only after someone dies.

We might as well burn all history books that state anything other than dry, dry fact too. Any analysis is invalid, because we cannot assume the text of what long dead people said/wrote are attributed correctly, let alone their motives or meanings of said quotes. We cannot say the contents of private meetups are valid, even if those are interviews meant to be revealed to the world, because a guy is dead and he may have meant something else; only publicly released statements can have zero ambiguity in meanings.

Half of the quotes from the founding fathers of America can now be removed from textbooks, because a large chunk of those are most likely said in ambiguous situations during unknown meetups, even if recorded properly for prosperity, and thus cannot be disputed or supported by long dead guys.

So... yeah. Kinda... yeah.
 
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wkz said:
I would like to point out that if the above argument is a legit and valid argument to anything...
... then we might as well abandon recordkeeping and throw the "freedom of information" act out the window.

This is simply because any and all recorded quotes can easily become a "invalid quote", and cannot be used as historical fact. Especially if it is locked up (classified, private memoirs, stuff said after the fact, saved only in private servers, etc) and released only after someone dies.

We might as well burn all history books that state anything other than dry, dry fact too. Any analysis is invalid, because we cannot assume the text of what long dead people said/wrote are attributed correctly, let alone their motives or meanings of said quotes. We cannot say the contents of private meetups are valid, even if those are interviews meant to be revealed to the world, because a guy is dead and he may have meant something else; only publicly released statements can have zero ambiguity in meanings.

Half of the quotes from the founding fathers of America can now be removed from textbooks, because a large chunk of those are most likely said in ambiguous situations during unknown meetups, even if recorded properly for prosperity, and thus cannot be disputed or supported by long dead guys.

So... yeah. Kinda... yeah.
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Fair point, but when the guy's family have told people he never would have said that, the people publishing the quote could have published it before but didn't, and they are known for being critical of the administration he was part of . . . it still might be true, but it might be better to use this as a secondary or tertiary source rather than the primary.
 
okay, question: I know what all the other react buttons mean, but... "Meow?" Context plz?
 
RHJunior said:
okay, question: I know what all the other react buttons mean, but... "Meow?" Context plz?
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You have now received a meow rating. You are welcome!!! Honestly I don't know what it's supposed to be for and just use it to acknowledge posts that don't rate a full response but are interesting... and to confuse people sometimes.

In other news I started a reread. Antediluvian dust? I looked that up on a whim and my would you look at that obscenely obscure bible reference?

On Sunday he would have taken rest?
Seriously?

RHjunior..... look like I said before I don't care if your personnel beliefs and morality are a bit old school. I don't particularly care if you try to promote them in your writing either. But you asked for feedback and we aren't idiots.

So I'm going to be straight with you. What you have here is an amusing fix fic and it's almost painfully wholesome. The teenagers barely swear, sex is something they are ashamed or at least embarrassed about, the female lead who you put forward as a badass says Daddy, (yes I'm harping on that but it freaks me out alright?!) the morally right thing is always the right thing to do no matter what, and the people who compromise their morals are evil and losing badly.

That's ok. If that's what you want to write go for it, but denying it when people call you on it is kind of pointless, especially after asking for feedback, and I think most people on this sight are over the age of twenty. When we see that kind of not at all subtle message imbedded in the work... well I just roll my eyes and try to ignore it because occasionally something goofy is fun. And again I don't care, I just let it roll off of me. Other people find it annoying.
 
Fencer said:
You have now received a meow rating. You are welcome!!! Honestly I don't know what it's supposed to be for and just use it to acknowledge posts that don't rate a full response but are interesting... and to confuse people sometimes.
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Why do you waste keystrokes on "meow" ratings?

...because you can.
 
I am only on Chapter 10, but my god am I enjoying this read. I'm gonna binge this throughout the week to get through it!
 
Okay, so I'll start with saying that I really like this story, like, 90% is excellent. Its so rare to find a good story that makes use of Warcraft and its various... foibles. And in a story rife with humor. Very good. No complaints there.

But, and there always is a but in there, isn't there? And its that 10% But, there this thing that rips me out of the story whenever it happens. And its the ROB sections. Mind, this is my personal oppinion and most might not agree with it. But really, bored ROB looking for entertainment. Thats god awful storytelling, they are basicly giant McGuffins that don't really serve a perpouse beside explaining thigs, and doesso in such a way that it brings the reader out of the story and reminds them that hey, this guy could smack Scion around like a little bitch if he wanted to, and thers a whole race of him just waiting in the wing. It drains away alot of the tension of the story, which is a shame.

I mean, you could have done it so much better. God knows you have showed that you have the imagination for it, with some to spare.

I thought the first chapter was awful, and while I thank god that I decided to read on despite of that (I binged it in around 6 hourse), you could still reduce that whole chapter down to "He's a Druid with the Engeneering and Enchanting profession in addition to all secondery and all gathering proffesions." But beyond that the first chapter can be skiped without losing anything.

Now, I can see that you feel that you need the exposition that the ROB's bring, but you do it in such a way that makes it feel that they aren't really part of the story. Personally, had it been me writing it, I'd have gone with the Titans for sevral reasons. Not only are they probebly less powerfull, meaning that they would not be able to oneshot the true foe, but while there are some indication that they might be able to go multidimensional, its not something that match the extent that Zion can do.

So they might have been able to sense the approache of the Worms but been unable to stop them as they are presently. But whats their stake in Earth? I hear you ask. Guess what alternate version of a certain planet happens to be sitting in the general path the Worms were traveling in, and are likely to trave in again if Earth goes belly up. Thats right! A certain planet that houses the world soul of a very important Titan. Who happens to be very vurnerable.

So Eonar snatch up Adrian as a target of opperunity, because time is short and they really don't have the time or the power to do much in their weakened state and send him in to help out. He functions as a conduit trough which the oter Titans can pick out their own champions to help the cause and presto, story unfoalds as you have detailed it.

But there would have been an added bonus as well, because Sergeras in there as well, and while he is traped he is not entierly powerless, and since he wants Azeroth destroyed, either by his own hand or some other, he gifts some scum with the fel and suddenly Adrian has some additional problems to deal with.

I hope this didn't seem to rude and presumptious of me. I really do like the story and will keep following it, but I do hope you will cut down on the ROB's, they rob alot of the energy out of the story.
 
Dis Lexic said:
Well, thats sort of true, they are desperate...but they are also kidnapping random people, letting known monsters run around because they MIGHT be useful, running experements on the same people they claim to protect, has psychopaths working for them and are basing their entire plan on one come up with by something they KNOW that their enemy can influence and desires the highest amount of conflict available. Perhaps Adrian was foolish for cutting them out completely, but I dont blame him in the slightest, not when their likely response would have been to dismiss the idea of a different plan and shoot him in the head.
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I read one commenter who called Cauldron's methodology "the Cave Johnson method."

So, so true.
 
sdwood said:
And this is where I can tell you didn't actually read the story.
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Or rather, he didn't read between the lines. The ROB did tell Bayleaf they're looking for entertainment and for some sort of cosmic betting, but looking deeper into their motives their aims are anything but.

I find that the Worm fanon is quite egregious of this fault. Or maybe it's the nature of Worm itself; that a lot of details are stuck in between the lines of the original text, and you can easily miss all of that background material while you're reading it (some needs to be teased out with a re-read, even).
And yet a surprisingly large number of people took Worm's text at face value (Taylor is doing the right thing! The unwritten rules are rules! Cop and Robbers! Oni Lee is an unthinking automaton! etc...) and Wildbow NEEDS to post his WoGs before some people would start thinking 'ahhhhh, it can also be interpreted like so...'
 
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Just found this and read through it after a few days of binging! I have to say, I'm really impressed. A few small pieces are definitely wish fulfillment, but honestly it doesn't get in the way of a really good story, in my opinion. The parts with different characters flow naturally and feel good. Keep up the great work!
 
wkz said:
And yet a surprisingly large number of people took Worm's text at face value (Taylor is doing the right thing! The unwritten rules are rules! Cop and Robbers! Oni Lee is an unthinking automaton! etc...) and Wildbow NEEDS to post his WoGs before some people would start thinking 'ahhhhh, it can also be interpreted like so...'
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Which should hold more weight in such discussions-- after-the-fact word-of-god, or the actual content of the story?

I'm gonna have to go with option 2 because we've seen what happens when authors abuse option 1. J.K.Rowling has become an entire series of memes because of her chronic abuse of WoG.

And thank you for the compliment, Stormbringer... but isn't ALL fanfic "wish fulfillment?"

As to the ROB merely being bored "unless you read between the lines...."

Okay it's expressly stated, by the ROB himself, that he's doing this as an investment... the ROB economy is based on entertainment-- new, stimulating content and ideas, etc. The primary form of entertainment is sponsoring Champions on worlds and dimensions in crisis. However, he's a poor businessman (he goes in the red just getting his chosen champions across the finish line, and rarely makes his investment back in the market) and something of a shyster amongst his own people, which has left him on the rocks financially.... so he's throwing every Quatloo he has left on one last long shot, even conning his own nieces and nephews into chipping in.

(edit) and to expand on the point further: it's also a form of humanitarian aid for them.

Briefly summarized, after their race "achieved transcendence" (whatever that might mean in this context), they found themselves in a quandary. Having something of a conscience as well as a decent amount of empathy, they wished to help out other less fortunate/advanced beings. But due to their tech level being so far out past Clarke's Law, they would either be attacked as evil spirits, regarded as cosmic horrors or worst of all, worshipped as gods when they tried. Their entire system of using proxies ("actors") to intervene instead and the incredibly complicated system of laws, traditions, and ethics they have to work through to do so grew up around this.

I thought that much at least was spelled out. In foot-high bright red letters no less. Most of it in the first chapter. Was I too subtle or something?
 
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RHJunior said:
And thank you for the compliment, Stormbringer... but isn't ALL fanfic "wish fulfillment?"
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No. Or at least not to a degree beyond the original authors story being wish fulfillment. The majority of SI fics are pretty blatant wish fulfillment. I want to say all, but I've read enough fics to know there is always an exception though I'm not certain I've run across that particular exemption yet.

I personally would say my stories start of as wouldn't it be cool if.... but that's just a premise. Once I've got that I can sort of let characters run loose. They'll move the story along by themselves so long as I poke them occasionally mostly staying on track. At the same time they'll surprise me and things I planned at the beginning just won't come together and I have to let those ideas go while things I never would have considered at the start play out naturally.

Crack fics are often just ridiculous comedy, and I can't call anything that won't take itself seriously wish fulfillment.

There are fics which basically boil down to character studies, or deconstructions too.

Though I would say blatant bashing fics fall into the category of wish fulfillment.
 
Vyrexuviel said:
Because in the end, Death will come for her too, and reunite the family in whatever serves as an afterlife. I don't know what happens after death, and anyone who says they -do- know is a fucking liar (because NO ONE has ever come back from being clinically, provably, rotting dead).

But I do know that Death is impartial. He came for my maternal grandmother when she sold her life short smoking 8 packs a day as a Rosie the Riveter. He came for my maternal grandfather, and in four days the man went from healthy, to morgue due to advanced pancreatic cancer and a blood clot in the brain.

He hasn't come for my parents yet, but he will, it's only a matter of time, and I've made peace with that. He'll come for me too, someday, and I've made my peace with that too, I like think.

That doesn't mean I don't see the point in living, I'd prefer that Death didn't come for me and mine for a good long time. But when we're due, we're due, and there's no changing that. Fate's book can't be rewritten, and the Past is even more immutible than solid stone. The Future is a never-seen twisting mass of unformed dreams and suppositions. Only the Present can be forged on the anvil of Action.

I intend to get my fill of life before Death comes for me, but when he does, I'll be ready, and content, because I'll know I did what I could to brighten the world, in my own half-assed sort of way.

I don't damn the man for being lazy or fearful who does nothing with his life, I damn him for trying to prolong the inevitible and making life tougher for everyone else.

Sorry for the rambling, I'm in something of a contemplative mood.
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I'd rather read your ramblings than the political/economic debate involving this world, which has nothing to do with any story based on Earth Bet, not even this one.
 
(this first part edited in AFTER the second part)
RHJunior said:
Which should hold more weight in such discussions-- after-the-fact word-of-god, or the actual content of the story?

I'm gonna have to go with option 2 because we've seen what happens when authors abuse option 1. J.K.Rowling has become an entire series of memes because of her chronic abuse of WoG.
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Well, if anything, it's food for thought on pivotal scenes. Just because an author has ruined a series from outside doesn't mean others can't enhance the experience with WoGs.
Plus, authors can and have ruined a story from WITHIN the story just the same...

/edit

RHJunior said:
Okay it's expressly stated, by the ROB himself, that he's doing this as an investment... the ROB economy is based on entertainment-- new, stimulating content and ideas, etc. The primary form of entertainment is sponsoring Champions on worlds and dimensions in crisis. However, he's a poor businessman (he goes in the red just getting his chosen champions across the finish line, and rarely makes his investment back in the market) and something of a shyster amongst his own people, which has left him on the rocks financially.... so he's throwing every Quatloo he has left on one last long shot, even conning his own nieces and nephews into chipping in.

I thought that much at least was spelled out. In foot-high bright red letters no less. Most of it in the first chapter. Was I too subtle or something?
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It's the word "Entertainment" that trips people up.

Think of it this way, what you've written above can be read as: Your entire ROB economy consist of all them ROBs getting their kicks in by putting people into tough, potential lethal situations... so they can sit back and munch on their variants of divine-popcorn as they watch things play out in an alternate world.

It's like they're all Romans, and some of them have sponsored Gladiators, and those gladiators are all facing Tigers and other monsters.

Or: "bored ROB looking for entertainment" is a legit complaint when the above is looked at at face value.

It's only AFTER realizing that our protagonist ROB is a poor businessman... and just WHY he is a poor businessman (edit: ProtagROB legitimately wants to fix horrible worlds, instead of either a) throwing champions into worlds unprepared hoping for longshot lottery wins, and/or b) choosing easy worlds to throw minimal-points-buy champions into, and/or any number of more profitable ventures. The realization that he's not playing the same game other ROBs are playing requires a bit of thought if you're not the author), do you realise that Bayleaf's backer is more than he seems.


So, tl;dr: No. Even in foot-high bright red letters, it's not immediately obvious.
 
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RHJunior said:
Which should hold more weight in such discussions-- after-the-fact word-of-god, or the actual content of the story?

I'm gonna have to go with option 2 because we've seen what happens when authors abuse option 1. J.K.Rowling has become an entire series of memes because of her chronic abuse of WoG.
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wkz said:
(this first part edited in AFTER the second part)

Well, if anything, it's food for thought on pivotal scenes. Just because an author has ruined a series from outside doesn't mean others can't enhance the experience with WoGs.
Plus, authors can and have ruined a story from WITHIN the story just the same...

/edit


It's the word "Entertainment" that trips people up.

Think of it this way, what you've written above can be read as: Your entire ROB economy consist of all them ROBs getting their kicks in by putting people into tough, potential lethal situations... so they can sit back and munch on their variants of divine-popcorn as they watch things play out in an alternate world.
... and just WHY he is a poor businessman (edit: ProtagROB legitimately wants to fix horrible worlds, instead of either a) throwing champions into worlds unprepared hoping for longshot lottery wins, and/or b) choosing easy worlds to throw minimal-points-buy champions into, and/or any number of more profitable ventures. The realization that he's not playing the same game other ROBs are playing requires a bit of thought if you're not the author), do you realise that Bayleaf's backer is more than he seems.
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His degree of separation.

How do most ROBs in such stories act? Even the benevolent ones are fairly cryptic, give the protagonist just enough to tip the scales in their favor, and go hands-off from there on out.... counting on the champion's motivation to win the day.

Agent.... is a little too emotionally invested for that. His champions do save the day-- but largely because (much like the author would be in such circumstances... ahem) he splurges on them, blowing nearly every Quatloo he makes on minmaxing his Champion, on intervening at crucial points, dropping "helpful hints" that practically amount to novelized insider info... breaking his species' ethics and aesthetics, if not their laws outright, by "becoming the story" rather than simply instigating or recording it.

Consequently he can't even market the story afterwards because it's common wisdom among his people (at least those who dominate the marketplace) that 'nobody wants to (watch/read/hear/see/experience/grok) a story that's more about a ROB than the Champion.'
 
RHJunior said:
Consequently he can't even market the story afterwards because it's common wisdom among his people (at least those who dominate the marketplace) that 'nobody wants to (watch/read/hear/see/experience/grok) a story that's more about a ROB than the Champion.'
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I would imagine he has a niche market, which keeps him in enough quatloos to stay alive.

To meta it, ROBs are writers. Agent is just using Patreon instead of the publishing companies.
 
Kalaong said:
I would imagine he has a niche market, which keeps him in enough quatloos to stay alive.

To meta it, ROBs are writers. Agent is just using Patreon instead of the publishing companies.
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or, perhaps better phrased, he's sort of in the limbo of the pre-paypal/pre-patreon days...

Coinkidinkally--- I've noticed some posts here have a "gift" button? I looked around but couldn't find more information on that.
 
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