The Warcrafter

[RHJunior]

Okay, seems I owe @sdwood an apology, I did not recall this stupidity existing in this story.

Look you can have the society being one suffering serious shortages even up to the level of WWII europe, with window gardens and backyard gardens used to grow food and people patching clothes and there being a thriving black market for stuff like makeup and shampoo, etc...

...or you can have a society that resembles modern society with teenagers not worrying or caring what goes on in the world and worrying about fashion and high school status.

What you can't have (not in any believable fashion) is the later, while claiming the former is happening.

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Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. (perhaps I should have specified "she lives in a world where this SHOULD be the case".)

But honestly, if you think that they didn't have petty teenage drama during WWII... what, you think they all sat around in their victory gardens waving patriotic flags and thinking of the boys on the front? They had petty, vain, and cruel teenagers and high-school politics back then too.

Also: "You can get alternatives from North America?" --- I'll keep it short and say 'no you can't.' Given as an example, most of your spice rack simply does not grow well in North America. We don't just buy nutmeg from foreigners because it's cheaper or because we're lazy, we buy it because it doesn't grow well domestically and even if we could grow it locally we don't have the infrastructure to meet local demand.

I could give you an hour long lecture on the fate of the Banana alone. All bananas in North America are imported. But did you know you don't even eat the same kind of banana as your great grandma? Up until the 1950s, the Gros Michel was the main export we all ate... till leaf rust hit the plantations. And, since banana plants are grown from cuttings, meaning they were all essentially the same banana plant-- the Gros Michel was almost wiped out. Fortunately they found the Cavendish, a close-but-not-quite-as-good variety, which we now eat... and which is now showing signs of vulnerability to new strains of leaf rust....

Think about it. You came within a hair of never seeing a banana in your life... all because of a single strain of mold.

Now apply that to every strategic resource.

And this would, or should, be the situation in Taylor's world. In a world where space kaiju are ripping up entire cities, noone's going to have the people, time or money to build an entirely new shipping and manufacturing system for nonessential luxuries when they're trying to cobble the existing vital systems back together.

You've spent your entire life in a world replete with mass international trade, so you have little perspective (not that any of us have the FULL picture) of just how interdependent it all is. It's not just a matter of "oh we'll order it on Amazon.com if we run out." If one link fails, the knock-on effects mean that a dozen more you never expected fail or are strained to the breaking point.

And anyway it's a self-evident principle that in times of hardship, luxuries go by the wayside-- and the category of "luxury" grows apace with the length of the hard times. And profligate casual sex is a luxury of 21st Century life.

 

[Just A Dude]

And anyway it's a self-evident principle that in times of hardship, luxuries go by the wayside-- and the category of "luxury" grows apace with the length of the hard times. And profligate casual sex is a luxury of 21st Century life.

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We're already replacing many plastics applications with cellulose, due to being just plain better and made from common, renewable wood pulp. The main reason the switch isn't happening faster is price.

There's also plenty of land in Mexico that COULD be devoted to natural rubber production if needed and require only overland transit, which may be part of why Mexico is getting Protectorate attention... gotta keep the supplies stable. IRL, they don't do it simply because of market saturation and not enough global demand.

Basically, for every "devastating shortage" there are other solutions that would naturally be explored to return things to balance.

Of course, that's even assuming Leviathan was devastating international trade due to shipping raids... which is simply not true. There may be a dip due to concern over ports being hit, but Leviathan never attacked SHIPS directly and almost every major deep water city port is still intact.

 

[TheUnicorn]

But honestly, if you think that they didn't have petty teenage drama during WWII...

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I never said that, teenage drama has existed as long as humans have and will continue until humanity disappears, however what you won't have in any situation where serious shortages affect society is teenage drama completly isolated from the real world. That is a privilige of a society rich enough to let teenagers be so completly disconnected from what's going on in the world.

Given as an example, most of your spice rack simply does not grow well in North America.

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Wrong.
What you mean is that it doesn't grow naturally in North America. it is currently cheaper to import it than grow it in the US but even so people do so at home, if trade was completely cut off (which again isn't the case in your story) it could be grown commercially in the US. Achieving the "best quality" nutmeg may not be possible, but for 99.999% of the population that won't matter, because they can't tell the difference.
However you do have part of a point in that spices like Nutmeg with a long growth period will be the most difficult to source locally, but they will also be the easiest to keep supplied from abroad.

But did you know you don't even eat the same kind of banana as your great grandma?

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Sure, but it's not like that affects anything.

Now apply that to every strategic resource.

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No, because it doesn't apply to ANY strategic resource.

And this would, or should, be the situation in Taylor's world.

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Debetable, but I agree it's a plausible scenario. Again, the issue isn't that you showed us a setting where this is true, it's that you showed us a setting where this is very obviously NOT the case...and then tried to claim it is.

And anyway it's a self-evident principle that in times of hardship, luxuries go by the wayside

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Yup. And if you had a society where that is true I wouldn't be complaining. However when you have a society that clearly has kept up all their luxuries you can't claim they're suffering from the sort of shortages needed to have them not have birth control available.

Of course, that's even assuming Leviathan was devastating international trade due to shipping raids... which is simply not true.

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Actually even that assumption would be no where near enough. Even if a ship going out had one chance in three of actually arriving at it's destination you'd still have some crazy bastards who'd be volunteering to pilot the ships and some stuff would get transported that way, not to mention a lot more would be transported by air.

 

[Hazard]

For that matter, both latex for condoms and the pharmaceuticals necessary for the pill can be sourced through the petrochemical industry, and the USA has rather sizable crude oil reserves it could tap but doesn't IRL because it's cheaper to import crude oil from half the world away.

 

[Lord of Dragons]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not that the resources for birth control don't exist, it's that there's demand for so many more important things that the supply lines for condoms/pills have not been rebuild. There may be political factors involved as well, but it might be purely economic - as in pills and condoms are available but at many times the price and teenagers just can't afford it.
I have no problem accepting that shortage in any resource could be easily compensated for - it's a completely different issue when dozens if not hundreds of resources get cut of at the same time with little to no warning. It may very well come down to a politician deciding between contraception and spice and going with spice. Or more important medication for that matter.
It's clear that life in Bet USA isn't devoid of luxury, but having different expectations and distribution of resources should not be a surprise. It certainly doesn't break immersion for me, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of Cauldron's plan to increase birth rates or prepare society for Golden Morning either.

Edit:
Another point to keep in mind is that Cauldron is interested in Parahuman Feudalism because they can't keep the US government stable for much longer. Contessa's power isn't enough anymore. So having whole regions on NA be less stable and under control than Brockton Bay wouldn't be a surprise. Looking at Bakuda's reign of terror before BB and how there was essentially no manhunt for bombing a college, the theoretic ability to compensate for resource shortages and the practical ability to implement them are probably very far apart as well.

 

[RHJunior]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not that the resources for birth control don't exist, it's that there's demand for so many more important things that the supply lines for condoms/pills have not been rebuild. There may be political factors involved as well, but it might be purely economic - as in pills and condoms are available but at many times the price and teenagers just can't afford it.
I have no problem accepting that shortage in any resource could be easily compensated for - it's a completely different issue when dozens if not hundreds of resources get cut of at the same time with little to no warning. It may very well come down to a politician deciding between contraception and spice and going with spice. Or more important medication for that matter.
It's clear that life in Bet USA isn't devoid of luxury, but having different expectations and distribution of resources should not be a surprise. It certainly doesn't break immersion for me, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of Cauldron's plan to increase birth rates or prepare society for Golden Morning either.

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Thank you, this was precisely what I've been saying. Repeatedly. In multiple ways. I've been tempted to delve into sign language and hieroglyphics, in hope of getting the point across.

I HAD thought it self-evident from what I've written in the story itself.

 

[rerun_lightspeed]

On a slight tangent from the discussion above, it is possible to produce oil from algae in a short timescale, it is jut not as easy or cheap with our current technology. Thus minor uses of oil for plastics and lifesaving medicine would likely continue even with trade cut off unless there were a complete societal breakdown. However I agree that the more limited supply would affect prices create a shift in consumer priorities.

 

[mn--]

On a slight tangent from the discussion above, it is possible to produce oil from algae in a short timescale, it is jut not as easy or cheap with our current technology. Thus minor uses of oil for plastics and lifesaving medicine would likely continue even with trade cut off unless there were a complete societal breakdown. However I agree that the more limited supply would affect prices create a shift in consumer priorities.

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Oil can be made from a silly number of different things, even wood pulp. And that's not counting what all can be had from various members of the family Brassicacae ... there was that one farmer who was energy-independent for a while with rapeseed oil, not too far from here ... until his experimental fuels tax exemption period ended. Technology proven IRL, business viability... not.

And that plant family produces a huge number of other useful chemicals too, if not in amounts relevant to industry while cheaper sources exist ... IRL...

Rubber was actually made from dandelions during WWII. I wonder if grandma still has that one old pair of dandelion-rubber soled slippers...

 

[jseah]

On a slight tangent from the discussion above, it is possible to produce oil from algae in a short timescale, it is jut not as easy or cheap with our current technology. Thus minor uses of oil for plastics and lifesaving medicine would likely continue even with trade cut off unless there were a complete societal breakdown. However I agree that the more limited supply would affect prices create a shift in consumer priorities.

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Well, for oil, America can just drill, it's just harder so we don't IRL.

On the other hand, if the government is on the verge of losing its monopoly on force, certain things that require too long a supply chain can break real fast.

 

[JoshuaSweetvale]

When the dystopia you're adjusting ends up with features that correspond perfectly with your ideology, that's pretty blatant.

 

[RHJunior]

On a slight tangent from the discussion above, it is possible to produce oil from algae in a short timescale, it is jut not as easy or cheap with our current technology. Thus minor uses of oil for plastics and lifesaving medicine would likely continue even with trade cut off unless there were a complete societal breakdown. However I agree that the more limited supply would affect prices create a shift in consumer priorities.

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oh indeed, they've been tinkering with that for decades now. A company even tried to get off the ground about 20 years ago claiming they'd figured out a way to "farm" the necessary algae in bulk... but... well...

Contrariwise, I suspect they would focus hard on keeping electronics and telecommunications functioning--- modern computers and the Internet have proven too useful and vital to regard as an expendable luxury. Though recycling for things like rare earths must be a priority (someone in Earth Bet dug up that landfill full of ET games, eeeek!)

When the dystopia you're adjusting ends up with features that correspond perfectly with your ideology, that's pretty blatant.

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That's EVERY dystopia story, dude. They're all arguably morality plays where the author lectures everyone about how humanity is going to Ruin The World if they don't shape up and toe his belief system... whether about Global Warming or Global Thermonuclear War.

 

[sdwood]

It may very well come down to a politician deciding between contraception and spice and going with spice. Or more important medication for that matter.

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Look, if there's so little oil available that pharmaceuticals are even _vaguely_ impacted, _personal automobiles would no longer exist_. Something like 45% of US oil use is fuel for personal automobiles, and another 25% is fuel for non-personal autos. That's 70% of all US oil use. That's going to be drastically impacted far before smaller uses.

 

[Kalaong]

"You can get alternatives from North America?" --- I'll keep it short and say 'no you can't.' Given as an example, most of your spice rack simply does not grow well in North America. We don't just buy nutmeg from foreigners because it's cheaper or because we're lazy, we buy it because it doesn't grow well domestically and even if we could grow it locally we don't have the infrastructure to meet local demand.

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Hahahaholyshit people do NOT get this. And they probably won't right up until the next economic crash turns most of those pretty suburbian greenways into dust bowls. Because one thing that I think you could throw in at a later date just to hammer a stake through this idiocy?
Common lawn grass.
It is NOT indigenous to the US, and actually needs a multi-billion-dollar support structure to maintain it. It needs specialty plant food because the mineral balance needed to maintain it exists NOWHERE on the continent. It needs more water per cubic foot of mass than any other plant on the continent. And without those things each and every lawn will become a miniature Desert of Maine - that ridiculous time-wasting ritual of constant mowing forces it to direct its propagation into turning its root network into a strangling morass that keeps anything else from growing there, and when it dies the topsoil washes and/or blows away. It's basically a 100% reversal of the "cane toads in Australia" precautionary story.

Not only are massive amounts of plants and minerals the US takes for granted imported, but a lot of the plants and industries that already exist are 100% dependent on imports. Here's a few more that occurred to me while I was kvetching; limestone and diatomaceous earth.
Limestone is an essential component of concrete, and the US only produces a quarter of the world's supply. Cut off imports and every bag of cement becomes up to four times as expensive. Meaning the same thing happens to the entire construction industry. A port city like Brockton Bay becoming a slum makes even more sense now, doesn't it.
Diatomaceous earth is a wonder material - an essential component in non-toxic pesticides and water purification - but though Nevada has a large amount of it, most of the world's deposits are in Asia. That means loss of imports drives down crop yield and drives up the price of fresh water. Bitch's foster mother had to have been stupidly rich to afford a pool, and I can't remember if public ones were ever mentioned.

It's downright imbecilic how few people recognize how dependent the world has become on planet-spanning supply chains.

That's EVERY dystopia story, dude. They're all arguably morality plays where the author lectures everyone about how humanity is going to Ruin The World if they don't shape up and toe his belief system... whether about Global Warming or Global Thermonuclear War.

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And this makes me think of a creepy side-note; correlation is of course not causation, but societal acceptance of alternative lifestyles seems directly connected to the amount of sexual freedom permitted by that society. The process of moving romantic encounters from homes to the backseats of cars pretty neatly matches the progress of the civil rights movement. And modern cultures that practice extreme sexual shaming are the most restrictive ones on the entire planet QED the Balkans, Africa, Central and South America... Kind of explains why authoritarianism is on the rise throughout WORM!Earth; from the Yangban to the Elite to Empire 88, the entire world has a case of blue balls.

Freedom itself is a luxury product. It can only exist in a prosperous society.

 

[Vandenbz]

I wonder if Amy could eventually help with some of those shortages by adapting the plants for the local ecosystem. For example, spices hard to acquire? Grow your own! That'd be another way to help revitalize Brockton Bay's economy if they can turn the area outside the city into growing formerly rare foodstuffs. Heck, maybe she could even modify an animal to produce meat comparable to that super-expensive Wagyu beef.

 

[TheUnicorn]

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not that the resources for birth control don't exist, it's that there's demand for so many more important things that the supply lines for condoms/pills have not been rebuild.

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Sure that works...in a society where there are actual severe shortages, not one where kids have smartphones and the like.

I HAD thought it self-evident from what I've written in the story itself.

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Again, the problem isn't that what you want to show is impossible, it's that you showed something very different.

EDIT:Here's a bit about condoms during WWII

Today I'm Researching: Condoms in WWII • Mackenzie Kincaid

Writing sex scenes set in World War II? Here's just the ridiculously long post you needed, with information on 1940s condom technology, period-accurate lubrication, pro stations, and the Army's war against VD. You're welcome.

www.mackenziekincaid.com

 

[Hazard]

I wonder if Amy could eventually help with some of those shortages by adapting the plants for the local ecosystem. For example, spices hard to acquire? Grow your own! That'd be another way to help revitalize Brockton Bay's economy if they can turn the area outside the city into growing formerly rare foodstuffs. Heck, maybe she could even modify an animal to produce meat comparable to that super-expensive Wagyu beef.

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Wagyu is a luxury product, but it's one that is easily substituted for. I mean, it's just a chunk of a cow raised in a specific manner. Most people won't care, as long as they've got something meaty on the plate, and the USA has some very large cattle herds to supply whatever amount of beef it wants.

This is harder with spices, but even there it's not impossible to just... use different spices that do grow well in your climate and soil. Sure, you do lose access to cuisines that use spices you can't get, but it's not as if there won't be cooking books and shows about how to either substitute for spices you have no access to, or how to cook tasty meals with spices you do have access to.

 

[RHJunior]

Hahahaholyshit people do NOT get this. And they probably won't right up until the next economic crash turns most of those pretty suburbian greenways into dust bowls. Because one thing that I think you could throw in at a later date just to hammer a stake through this idiocy?
Common lawn grass.

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Oh. OH DO NOT get me started.

There are HOAs in NEVADA and ARIZONA that demand their members maintain a green, neatly trimmed lawn....even though their city or town is in the middle of a frickin' DESERT.

People have tried easier to maintain alternatives only to be sued, legislated against by city hall, even mailed death threats. One family used desert plants for their yard in AZ. Sued--- in the middle of a water shortage.

Another family in a major city replaced their grass with a fortune in wildflowers. Someone sneaked onto their property and mowed it flat.

I personally have to spend $50 a month just to keep my crappy yard barely legal... and that's with skipping one mow per month just so I don't bankrupt myself.

I'm on financial aid, and I'm having to blow $50-$100 a month on GRASS. AND NOT THE FUN KIND!

All this because centuries ago rich slaveowners wanted to brag about how they could waste time having the slaves keep their lawn scythed flat....

***froths at mouth for a few minutes.****

Wagyu is a luxury product, but it's one that is easily substituted for. I mean, it's just a chunk of a cow raised in a specific manner. Most people won't care, as long as they've got something meaty on the plate, and the USA has some very large cattle herds to supply whatever amount of beef it wants.

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Vanity factor... some products are attractive BECAUSE they're crazy expensive. And it's not limited to the champagne and caviar set... people will tend to shun products that are too inexpensive because people think cost = quality.

This is harder with spices, but even there it's not impossible to just... use different spices that do grow well in your climate and soil. Sure, you do lose access to cuisines that use spices you can't get, but it's not as if there won't be cooking books and shows about how to either substitute for spices you have no access to, or how to cook tasty meals with spices you do have access to.

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Part of why Bayleaf's book of recipes was so valuable to Toni.

 

[Fusion Blaster]

Oh. OH DO NOT get me started.

There are HOAs in NEVADA and ARIZONA that demand their members maintain a green, neatly trimmed lawn....even though their city or town is in the middle of a frickin' DESERT.

People have tried easier to maintain alternatives only to be sued, legislated against by city hall, even mailed death threats. One family used desert plants for their yard in AZ. Sued--- in the middle of a water shortage.

Another family in a major city replaced their grass with a fortune in wildflowers. Someone sneaked onto their property and mowed it flat.

I personally have to spend $50 a month just to keep my crappy yard barely legal... and that's with skipping one mow per month just so I don't bankrupt myself.

I'm on financial aid, and I'm having to blow $50-$100 a month on GRASS. AND NOT THE FUN KIND!

All this because centuries ago rich slaveowners wanted to brag about how they could waste time having the slaves keep their lawn scythed flat....

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Honestly I think a good plart of hte reason why I don't want a house if I could ever afford one is I hate yard work and find little to no point in them.

 

[Kalaong]

Vanity factor... some products are attractive BECAUSE they're crazy expensive. And it's not limited to the champagne and caviar set... people will tend to shun products that are too inexpensive because people think cost = quality.

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On top of that? Fugly Bob's implies that some biotinker came up with a cheap way of keeping cattle alive, because one of the main ways megafarmers maintain their production of cheap meat is by pumping farm animals full of freaking antibiotics. And accelerating the development of antibiotic-resistant disease doing so.

And this whole argument started in the first place because the loss of trans-oceanic shipping deprived the pharmaceutical industry of petroleum byproducts, so those are at a premium anyway.

 

[TheUnicorn]

And this whole argument started in the first place because the loss of trans-oceanic shipping deprived the pharmaceutical industry of petroleum byproducts, so those are at a premium anyway.

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No, the argument started because there wasn't any loss of trans-oceanic shipping.

 

[Kalaong]

No, the argument started because there wasn't any loss of trans-oceanic shipping.

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...you, yourself, would be willing to work on a cargo ship in a world where Great Cthulhu is proven to be swimming around sinking entire island chains?

Besides, the canon reason Brockton Bay is a slum is specifically because shipping shut down; there's a literal boat graveyard.

 

[gatewaewanderer]

...you, yourself, would be willing to work on a cargo ship in a world where Great Cthulhu is proven to be swimming around sinking entire island chains?

Besides, the canon reason Brockton Bay is a slum is specifically because shipping shut down; there's a literal boat graveyard.

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Well, the Boat Graveyard was because of a riot, I think, but I also vaguely remember the riot being because of the Endbringer-derived shipping problems. Though that may be fannon.

 

[Aleh]

Limestone is an essential component of concrete, and the US only produces a quarter of the world's supply. Cut off imports and every bag of cement becomes up to four times as expensive.

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Economics doesn't work that way. You're also assuming that we're the only country in the world that uses concrete, which... ah, no. We're not.

The rest of the discussion... kinda disregards Florida and Mexico, both of which can and do grow a lot of the stuff you're talking about -- even if we write off Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, and assorted other Caribbean areas.

Black pepper, for instance, grows just fine in large parts of Florida, and particularly and famously so in an area near Miami known as the Redlands. I have a good bit of it growing in my back yard, near Coral Gables, where it requires minimal attention. Of course, that's before you even start to discuss various potential substitutes, like grains of paradise or Senegal pepper.

And then there's the fact that we don't need oceanic shipping to get stuff from South America, which leads to its own set of economic discussions... or the fact that there are entire realms of spices that we don't typically use due to inertia and the easy availability of other, foreign, alternatives.

None of this is to say that the loss of shipping wouldn't be catastrophic, of course, but you're underestimating our adaptability.

 

[juicedmark]

Well, the Boat Graveyard was because of a riot, I think, but I also vaguely remember the riot being because of the Endbringer-derived shipping problems. Though that may be fannon.

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I mean, both of you are technically right. Endbringer showed up, shipping died, protests broke out in response with some ships purposely sunk or left in such a way other ships couldn't get out of the harbor by protestor's.

 

[Kalaong]

Economics doesn't work that way. You're also assuming that we're the only country in the world that uses concrete, which... ah, no. We're not.

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That's why I said "up to". Hell, even inside the US it's often cheaper to transport large quantities of something to a coastal port via truck or train just to put it on a cargo ship and move it along a coastline. Most people just don't get how many everyday products are transported by cargo ship.