It's the whole Worm Cauldron situation, and no one defends them.

...I have. Not for everything they did, but the world would have broken down by now without them and I think they were desperate enough to get a partial pass.

As for Kyuubey, while I'm inclined to give him the benifit of the doubt, he doesn't have much more than his word to back him up iirc. I think he's a fantastic character though.
 
I didn't read Worm all the way through, so I can't go one way or the other on Cauldron, but I hesitate to consider desperate people or (in Kyuubey's case) mechanical one-minded optimizers evil in the true sense of the word. Evil requires active malice, something which Kyuubey does not demonstrate. Kyuubey demonstrates in fact that he does have something of a moral system: IIRC, he never actually lies in any of the official media he appears in, even when it would be to his benefit to do so. It may be enforced on him, or may not, but action-wise he actually demonstrates some regard for the Free Will of his victims, and is not actively malicious.

Malice != destructive or calloused, both of which can describe Kyuubey where Malice does not apply, but neither of those terms necessarily apply to Evil either. Kyuubey does what he does because he has a (legitimately, which is important here as well) more important thing to care about, the Heat Death of the universe. Part of what makes him such a hateable villain is the fact that you can't argue with him on a logical level, only an emotional one; one he disavows any knowledge of, in fact.
 
Either way, the key element here is how we appear to QB. We want to present as "enigmatic entity, potential asset" rather than "enigmatic entity, likely hostile".

Thus, limited cooperation drips.
 
Guys, very frankly, kyubey can't do anything to us. Literally nothing short of planetary destruction would be enough to kill a resident of the Velvet room. If kyuubey is violent, we will 1 hit kill him. This is a guy of absolute logic, he knows that some things are impossible. There is no reason why we should answer his questions aside from meta knowledge about his intentions.

[X] ...No? Why would you ever agree to something like that?
-[X] Ask for clarification anyway.
-[X] Berate Kyubey for getting your Grimoire dirty with its paws.
—[X] Pet it some more either way.
 
Guys, very frankly, kyubey can't do anything to us. Literally nothing short of planetary destruction would be enough to kill a resident of the Velvet room. If kyuubey is violent, we will 1 hit kill him. This is a guy of absolute logic, he knows that some things are impossible. There is no reason why we should answer his questions aside from meta knowledge about his intentions.
Given the Incubator culture is implied to be, at least, Kardeshev type III, I'm not so sure this is beyond his power to do if he sees fit.

The incubators are suitably advanced that I honestly don't think we could 1-shot Kyuubey if he didn't want us to. Remember that the white bunnycat form is just a biosuit the Incubator inhabits, it's modified specifically to appeal to human children. Certainly, the only impossible thing here would be our victory if we engaged him in all-out war.
 
She Has A Past
You manage to keep your composure as you formulate an answer. "Please elaborate on what this 'exchange' would entail," you ask the alien as you berate yourself for not listening more closely. "Why would it be beneficial for me?"

Kyubey remains impassive as it seats atop your Compendium, and you fail to perceive a significant change in tone as it speaks.

"Our reasoning should be evident," it says. "There are few things we lack access to. While you may not have a current need for a miracle, there is no reason why we can't have a simple exchange of information. You will be appropriately compensated in accordance with the value of the data provided."

Your eyes narrow slightly. "Who gets to decide their worth?"

"We do, of course." It admits without any difficulty. "All knowledge has an inherent value, one we will measure against the cost of your demands. Have you decided what you desire in return?"

Its question catches you off guard, and you lean back on the bench as you furiously think. You come up empty. "...Nothing comes to mind, at the moment." You say slowly. "All the same, compensation can be discussed afterwards."

Kyubey nods. "Agreed."

You look around your little corner of the park as you belatedly realize how out of place you currently are, but you fail to notice any humans paying particularly close attention to your conversation.

"Now then, the first question," it begins without much preamble. "Are you a unique existence? Was your birth artificial, or was it a natural occurrence in this 'collective unconscious'?"

You frown minutely at the very personal question the alien started with. Drumming your fingers atop your seat, you decide to be truthful for now. "The circumstances previous to my birth are unknown to me, unfortunately. As for its nature…" You trail off for a brief moment. "My master never mentioned anything of the sort."

More like he never had a reason to do so. You had never questioned your existence before the events of the incident that very nearly killed you. You were a resident of the Velvet Room. And that was it.

Meaning? Why would you care about that? Your one and only purpose was to serve and aid your master to the best of your ability.

You aren't even sure who your creator is. Was it the collective unconscious of humanity? Your master? A third party? Did you just randomly pop into existence without a reason?

Kyubey brings you out of your panicked downward spiral. "Lavenza?" You look down at the creature as you rapidly regain your composure. "Is everything alright? You appear distressed."

You wave a hand dismissively. "It's nothing." You state firmly as you clear your throat with a small cough. "Anyways, as I told Mami beforehand, I do have three siblings. They are very much like me, residents of the Velvet Room and beings who rule over power."

The alien perks up. "Are they aware of how they were brought into existence?"

"...I've never asked."

It bows its head. "Quite disappointing. We'd hoped for more concrete information." It steps off your Grimoire as it speaks, moving over to the armrest of the bench. "Next question. Do you consider yourself a deity? What do you mean by 'rule over power'? We presume it is a title of some kind."

You raise an eyebrow at the abrupt change in topic but answer nonetheless. "Yes, it is a title, of sorts. You could say… We measure power itself? It is mostly for ceremonial purposes." You hum as you consider the first part of its inquire. "And a deity? Humans do not worship me, so I could hardly call myself a god of any kind."

"An intriguing perspective."

You tilt your head in confusion. "What do you mean by that?"

It does the feline alien equivalent of a shrug. "The very few counted beings who we have encountered that could even come close to your level of individual power tended to possess…" It hesitates for the first time since you've met it. "...delusions of grandeur. Godhood was a common theme among them. We are very glad you are more mentally sound."

Beings that could have power similar to yours? Interesting… "What were these beings like?"

"Mostly anomalies in otherwise unremarkable alien species, though even the most powerful being we have on record is unquestionably trifling in comparison with your prowess. And that leads into our last question, for the moment."

You gesture for it to continue. "Go ahead."

It starts off slowly. "Your soul has been a brimming light on our sensors since the instant we became aware of your presence. It is no wonder you hold such grand karmic potential; we theorize the fate of entire universes will be decided by your will."

...What?

"The consequences of your arrival will be felt for millennia to come. Interdimensional travel and the existence of a multiverse have been theories of ours for eons," it rambles on. "Do you wish to know the true purpose of the magical girl system?"

You frown at the alien. You knew there was something suspicious about all of this… "...True purpose?" You ask tentatively. "Clarify."

Kyubey hops off the armrest, landing on the cemented floor of the stone path. It turns to look at you. "Certainly. The energy produced by the hatching of Witches is unlike anything else we have ever observed. Our most experimental and unreliable of procedures are only capable of generating a mere fraction of the energy amassed by magical girls and Witches in a single day."

"...What would you need so much energy for?"

Kyubey blinks up at you. "To halt the inevitable heat death of the universe, of course."

Oh.

"Everything we have accomplished so far in pursuit of this goal becomes trivial if we gained access to multiple universes. From then on, our continued survival would be assured. It would take an eternity to find a permanent solution, but so long as there are enough universes to harness energy and matter from, we would accomplish it."

"My question is simple," it says. "How did you arrive into this universe?"

What do you do?

[] Tell the truth.
-[] But be vague about it.
—[] In a specific way?
-[] Show him the key.
—[] Make a demonstration of its capabilities.
—-[] ...Take Kyubey to the Velvet Room?
-[] Ask some questions first.
—[] …Heat death of the universe? Make him explain what that entails.
—[] ...Hatching of Witches? If they created the magical girl system in the first place, then where do those dark monsters come from?
-[] Do something else?

[] Refuse to answer. The death of the universe itself? Something's off…
-[] Ask it some questions.
—[] Heat death of the universe?
—[] The hatching of Witches?
—[] Something else?
-[] Make your demands known.
—[] You desire large quantities of human currency.
—[] A smartphone. One that works outside of this world, of course.
—[] Information for information. You have some very pointed inquiries for it.
—-[] Is it responsible for the current state of Mami's soul?
—-[] Make him stop tiptoeing around the issue. What are Witches?
—[] Something else?
-[] Do something else?

[] Write-In.

-=-
This is it, the question QB's been dying to ask you since the word 'interdimensional being' came up.

Telling him what he wants will make your potential reward much bigger, obviously.
 
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I'd be a lot more comfortable with this if we could somehow convince Kyubey not to 'harvest' everything in the alternate universes. Although I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it wants to do.
 
I'd say go for it. They're not making witches becuase they enjoy it after all, they just dont have any other way.

Consuming isolated stars in dead universes sounds a lot better than terrorizing teenagers.
 
I'd be a lot more comfortable with this if we could somehow convince Kyubey not to 'harvest' everything in the alternate universes. Although I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it wants to do.

Not gonna lie, I'm almost tempted (OOC) to set this off just so that we have an (IC) big dramatic plot to work against and overcome.

I do wonder if we couldn't get Kyuubey to ditch the magical girl system just by offering an alternative, but of course it may well choose to do something awful with our information just to get more energy.
 
On one hand, the Multiverse is infinite and ever-growing in SMT lore. Knowing this, combined with dimensional travel, harvesting energy to halt entropy becomes extremely wasteful.

On the other hand, the creation of new universes tends to fall under the purview of Divine Entities. The interaction of the two would be utter chaos. Either the Incubators would do everything to protect them, or run afoul of one of them and get utterly smited.

The first situation is the worst case scenario. Imagine Kyubey-backed YHVH dickery.

Either way it would be a theo-political minefield.
 
[X] Refuse to answer. The death of the universe itself? Something's off…
-[X] Ask it some questions.
—[X] Heat death of the universe?
—[X] The hatching of Witches?

-[X] Make your demands known.
—[X] Information for information. You have some very pointed inquiries for it.
—-[X] Is it responsible for the current state of Mami's soul?
—-[X] Make him stop tiptoeing around the issue. What are Witches?
—[X] Suppose you do provide the method to dimensional travel: how would Kyubey procure the necessary energy and resources? Through trade? Or would They steal, kill, and plunder?

I really, really don't like Kyubey, especially if they were to become bigger problems because of misguided kindness/ignorance of their nature. I had enough of planeswalker/dimensional traveling quests with Kyubey causing trouble because they found a way to do things they shouldn't. Nothing wrong with it as a plot/future obstacle to for the MC to overcome later; I'm... just hoping this won't be another one.
 
Well, I've never ever been even slightly opposed to the actual goal of the Incubators, and I also cannot totally ignore the mathematics involved. If the Incubators are granted a superior source of power, I expect them to latch on immediately. Obvious problems are them hyper-researching their new understanding of the universe, getting a whole lot of leverage over whatever they find, and threatening other things that we care about. Not really a decision I'd like to make myself.
 
[X] Inform it that said travel is a function of the Velvet Room, of which details you have never enquired previously.
[X] Probe further
-[X] Ask it some questions.
--[X] Heat death of the universe?
--[X] The hatching of Witches?

No need to refuse when we don't even know how it works. We just know the Velvet Room can cross dimensions.

It has to, to perform its role for Persona users
 
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[X] It was with the assistance of my Master, and the actual means is beyond my ken. I cannot assist in any interdimensional energy gathering, even if I wanted to.
-[X] Many of the other universes are dealing with similar issues regardless - We would be morally remiss in harvesting such vulnerable communities.
-[X] However if he would like, if we came across uninhabited universes or extreme energy sources, we could return with them in tow. He may be able to find a use for them then.
-[X] Do we have a deal?

I do not want to give Kyuubey interdimensional powers so he can become a universe-scale vampire. But that doesn't mean we can't pop back in on occasion to drop off new sources of energy. If one works more efficiently than Meguca, we've just saved the whole PMMM universe without Mado-wish. And there's plenty of infinite energy machines in fiction, not to mention powerhouses who might be willing to come help Kyuubey build some crazy shit. Superman v Incubators could be very interesting.
 
-[X] Show him the key.
—[X] Make a demonstration of its capabilities.
—-[X] ...Take Kyubey to the Velvet Room?

Potential reward should not be underestimated, he will be useful. besides, this is a multicross. take him with us.
 
...suddenly, I'm pining to know if the mechanics of universal death follow SMT: Nocturne rules.

Wherein the universe must undergo a 'Conception', where the world briefly enters a period of ruin, leading to a Rebirth at the behest of a Reason, put forward by a surviving human, backed by a surviving deity. This Reason defines the new world. Any World that fails to complete a Conception eventually runs out of Energy and falls to the Shadow Vortex, and the Gods of that Universe are left powerless.

In Nocturne, the Conception was jump-started early by a ritual performed by one of the villians.

I do not feel safe telling Kyubey any of this.
 
[X] Plan: Cautious Optimism.
-[X] Questions first!
--[X] What exactly do you mean by the Heat Death of the universe?
--[X] How exactly will their race be gathering this energy? Will it harm the current or future growth of life in said universe?
--[X] What do you plan to do after? Have you ever thought about it?
--[X] Explain in full this magical girl system.
-[X] Make your demands known.
--[X] A smartphone. One that works across all universes, of course!
--[X] Any number of future favors, within reason. You are essentially giving them infinite resources, it's only fair.
--[X] Reparations for any and all harm they've done in the course of their energy gathering.
--[X] When they find a solution to entropy, they will share it with all species in any universe they collected from, and any new species they encounter in any current or new universe.
-[X] Show him the key.
--[X] Make a demonstration of its capabilities.
---[X] ...Take Kyubey to the Velvet Room?
 
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I'm against showing them the key; they might try to steal it.
 
They likely would if they thought they could use it before we notice it's gone. If they can slip agents into another universe, one with known ways of interdimensional travel, they can form a splinter state and would presumably be able to access the technology on their own, not dependent on an outside benefactor. Much more stable than relying on us.

Of course, they would have no idea how to use it, but if we show it to them they can scan it, and we don't know what kind of detection capabilities they have. It's possible that if they got a good enough scan they could replicate it and invade the Velvet Room. Again, we really don't know anything about the scales Kyuubey works at, besides the fact that his most pressing concern is the heat death of the entire universe.

The Incubators are the single most powerful entity in their universe, to the point where Madoka only managed to force a victory because Kyuubey, for whatever reason, could not deny her wish. Meaning they had to be forced into cooperating with their own defeat for that defeat to be possible. Incubators are fucking scary.
 
[x] Refuse to answer. The death of the universe itself? Something's off...

This motherfucker wants to harvest the energy, lives, and resources of an infinite amount of Universes in order to sustain his own.

Fuck. That.
 
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