The Twin Holds: A Dwarf Karak Quest. (Warhammer Fantasy)

[DragonParadox]

To be honest i think at this point we are talking in circles, for now let's see if we get into that very specific situation before we try to untangle its morals in any more details.

 

[BronzeTongue]

The big concern I have is that it doesn't seem like Alrik has long to live. He may die this year in-game, or next year. I doubt he'll make it more than another five years or so.

Plans that rely on slow processes may simply be rendered irrelevant by the speed of events.

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You're not wrong, but I think they're a necessary step anyway.

Whoever the next high king is the political sentiment behind Arngrim won't go away. We need to work with them, and doing so will be much harder if we refuse to engage with them until after our faction takes nominal control of the throne.

If we start making inroads now then we'll be better off in pretty much any scenario.

It will also help because right now we only really know one of the points of contention between the two factions. It may be the main one, but learning where the other levers are will give us a greater ability to influence events.

If we can break the perception of Thorgrim as primarily anti-reclamation and find some other levers to pull we might not need to do this slowly to win politically.

 

[argenten]

Also.

Ive just decided to go with Karak Ziflin as located on the Gutzman map. Much easier to manage.

I feel kinda bad for them. They're a Hold of 30,000 Dawi. But they're so overlooked by pretty much everyone because nothing stands out about them.

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Works for me! That actually makes it a go for the omake idea I mentioned precipitated the question to begin with. and I do agree, GW overlooked them so that translates into the setting and any game stuff as well.

To Vikki Keenforger, Master Engineer of Karak Skarrenruf.

Since the introduction of the Steam Engine just over a thousand years ago, one of the largest difficulties faced by the Dawi has been that each Engine is constructed according to the design of it's maker, using components designed and produced by the Engineers in question. This has led to situations where repair crews have been unable to repair steam engines or other devices due to a lack of screws, bolts, and other components which could function as replacement parts.

See the flooding of the Eleventh Deep of Zhufbar and the sinking of the Ironclad Spirit of Grimnir for the tragic consequences. Each of these happened because replacement parts did not fit, and there was no time to make adjustments.

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Yeah, this reminds me of one of the issues Interwar Poland had, that of three different set ups for the train tracks thanks to the 3 different empires that had controlled parts of them. Overspecialization in the small fiddly bits can be a long term problem.

As a consequence of the growing demand for Gyrocopters since their introduction one century ago, the problem posed by a lack of replacement bolts and screws by crews only nominally trained in the piloting and minor maintenance has become too large to ignore.

I, Guildmaster Coppertwist of Zhufbar's Engineer's Guild have worked upon a solution to this problem. And after two centuries, these efforts have finally struck gold. Approved by the Guild Masters of all other Engineer's Guilds of the Karaz Ankor, from this day forward, we shall adopt an internal system of weights and measurements based upon immutable characteristics found in nature. With a prototype of each of these weights and lengths forged from Gromril and stored inside a runed Vault within Zhufbar.

From the start of the new year. ALL industrial products and designs created by the Dawi must begin to transition into having their weights and measurements noted according to this system.

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Oh wow...this is going to be big going forward, standardized weights and measures to make sure that all Engineering is on the same page? That could be huge on maintenance alone, not to mention going forward with new inventions. This is big, very big and I think a lot of people are missing how profound an affect something like this would have.

All engineering related devices, compounds, and creations for general consumption sold to non-Guild members must conform to a policy of parts standardization allowed by this system of measurements. Nuts, Bolts, Screws, Threading, Calibre, Pistons, and other items noted in the Guild Archive of Zhufbar must conform to standardization of design.

Prioritization is to be given that this is implemented with:
Firearms.
Drakeguns.
Explosives.
Gyrocopters.

Morgrim bless your works. And may the Karaz Ankor endure forevermore

My, my, even the Engineers can do something right for once. I guess Coppertwist isn't all that bad. - Ansgar

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Yup, Coppertwist took the chance to introduce a major reform thanks to the needs placed by the SKaven War as well as previously established precedents how the current system didn't work. It'll be focused on weaponry for now which makes sense, but the spread should be huge.

Kragg the Grim was spotted in a tavern.
Rolled 34

Not much. But some informants overheard some Everpeak traders talking about how a haggard and starving Kragg the Grimm was spotted eating in a tavern. He insulted everyone involved, but he finished a three-course meal meant for four Dawi, down to the marrow in the bones, and drank all the most expensive ale in the Tavern. Said tavern's owner now has a Gromril ring in his beard.

Supposedly he snatched a copy of Snorri's Gifts when Thorek delivered a chest full from the Everpeak.

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Hehehehe, guess he finally got worn down from his sulk session and found a way to get the gifts without having to give hmm? Ah well, as long as he gets them and finds ways to help the Karaz Ankor, that's what matters. Just love the idea that he went full grump mode and scarfed down a massive meal.

The Miner's Guild.

I intercepted a missive meant for the Miner's Guild. They coded it in their traditional code, but did not seal the envelope. I translated it.

Don't ask me how I got the code. You don't want to be incriminated.

- There will be no punitive actions taken against Clan Rakidum for their refusal of the Guild Master's trade deal. They are within their rights to refuse the offer, as we are within our rights to offer the deal that we did. We can be patient and wait for them to return. Beardlings always throw a fit when they realize how things work. Let him have his moment.

Have I mentioned I really don't like that Krutt?

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So we have official confirmation in setting of the WoG stuff relating to why the Miner's Guild relationship didn't drop after we refused the deal. And I agree with Ansgar, he really is a krutt.

That being said, I think it was worth it to get the reputation for not being fleeced and we can use this time to get a Reckoner or 2 to help us ensure we aren't cheated when we *do* go back.

arak Varr
Rolled 54 for quality of information:

I overheard some sailors from Barak Varr talk about the naval buildup. The Sea Engineers are working on some impressive new technology. Breaking out technologies that not even Zhufbar has fully tested and approved to avenge what the Druchii did to them. They are designing weapons, and almost immediately building prototypes and designs. The biggest issue Barak Varr is likely to face is a lack of Dawi to crew their ships. If they all go out to sea, Barak Varr will be left very underpopulated. Therefore they're encouraging settlers from the Everpeak and for the Imperial Dawi to return.

There's some reports of machines with two large prongs in front that can raise and lower large pallets for easy transport. These were being used in the dockyards to help speed up construction earlier in the year. But Dreadnought construction has been halted in exchange for producing more defenses and weapons for battling a land attack by the Skaven. More cannons. More guns. More grenades. The king is digging deep into his personal fortune to get this done. Barak Varr is now surrounded by layers of interlocking fortifications.

Some Wyrdawi arrived earlier this year. Apparently the King of Barak Varr invited them to set up an embassy. So far relations are a bit tense. But the Wardens they brought have made friends through providing Varr with some runic goods, and providing runic axes to more Dawi. Runelord Dagram Seafeet hasn't raised any serious objections to this. But has insisted that runic items not be sold for gold, but exchanged for something of equal value.

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Huh...So Barak Varr is going all out and risking a *lot* in their frenzy to avenge the shaming of their king. Be cool if they can get those technologies working and grounded in Engineer, but at the same time if the Skaven strike at the right moment when they're underdwarfed...that could be a very dangerous thing. We might want to help them get immigrants to prevent them from being too exposed.

And looks like they are putting in fork lifts, that should help the industry going forward especially when it comes to dockside goods movement. And looks like the king is preparing for the aforementioned skaven attack when they're exposed. Good, good. Barak Varr is much too critical to be left to chance like that.

As for the Krakka Drakk dawi...welp, looks like things are going well there with the Runelord just putting a thinly veiled caveat to make the trading of Runed goods a bit less blatant, which is fine in the grand scheme of things.

Karak Grom prepares to evacuate:

Some somber news from the Dawi of Karak Grom. The women and children of the Karak are being evacuated to Karak Kaferkammaz, as are the ancestral tombs of Karak Grom. King Garil Thunderclap has given up hope on holding the Karak against a sustained Skaven assault, and intends on re-settling within an allied hold, keeping Karak Grom as a dedicated anti-Skaven fortress.

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I can't blame them, they can always move back in *if* the times change in our favor enough, but after what happened to us, I can see the sense and it'll make it easier to us to help them as well if we can focus on just dealing with the skaven when it comes to fighting them around Grom. It must have irked Garil greatly but hey, in this situation there's no perfect option.

Something going on with the Runesmiths:
Rolling for investigation: Rolled 93
An informant from Karak Azul told me something very interesting. Thorek Ironbrow has been collecting a lot of genealogical information from across the Karaz Ankor. From The Everpeak, down to Karak Ziflin.

I asked Garek about what he thought was happening. And he told me, somewhat hesitantly, that Thorek may be charting out the family tree of the Runelords and Runesmiths of the Karaz Ankor. According to Garek, Runic law dictates that only members of the Runescribe Clans and the descendants of Runesmiths are eligible for membership of the Runesmith Guild. But this blood has spread around enough, that most Karaks have a few families with this lineage to them.

Garek suspects that Thorek intends to organize the adoption of many of these Dawi into the Runescribe Clans, to replenish their numbers, and to take additional apprentices. He's already taken five additional Runesmiths to Karak Azul, and had each take three apprentices.

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Ooooh boy. This could be big, especially in light of his idea to have 'lesser' Runesmiths make basic items, so he might well be plumbing the bloodlines for that as well as just...making sure that all possible families that *can* produce Runemsiths are allowed to do so. This is big with possibly deep consequences.

There should be more Dawi in the Vaults.
Rolled 38 on accuracy of information.

Remember when you sent me and the Rangers out to find Karaks? Shortly after we arrived, I mean. Well, I've been thinking about the Vaults. It is a large relatively desolate mountainscape. The peaks are high. Crags and chasms block most travel. And you can take a month to travel as the Dwarf marches for a trip that, as the crow flies, takes but a few days. Well, I've gone snooping around the archives of Karak Ornsk, and asking around with Karak Izor's loremasters.

And I think I'm right. There are many more Karaks in the Vault. But they are more fortified bunkers filled with just a single small Clan of a few hundred Dawi. No rune weapons. Few guns. Just crossbows, axes, and mail. Most are autarkic groups descended from fallen World's Edge Holds. Many haven't seen outsiders in over a century, only rarely trading.

It would be difficult. But I think we could try to invite them to join us. Valaya knows that we're always in need of more Dawi to handle stuff that we don't like to do ourselves.

Diplomatic Action: Find the small Karaks and offer them settlement rights.

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This is something I think we'll want to do ASAP imo. The sooner these holds are found and incorporated the better not only for us, but for them as they'll be a lot safer together in our hold than isolated on their own. Plus it would allow for a much more effective concentrating of forces for the Southern Vaults War. Naturally with the 38 roll we don't know how many there are or how likely they'll be to move, but it can't hurt to try and would pay off dividends for soo many things

News from Lothern

I've done it!

I got some Imperial Dawi who visit Lothern for trade missions to agree to become informants. That means we now get news from the trade capitol of the entire damn world. I know, I am exceptional. Thank you very much.

Ansgar has drawn a scribble of himself flexing so mightily that his armour has torn and exploded off his chest.

In any case. It appears that your friend Teclis has caused a stir when he proposed allowing Kraka Drak to establish an embassy on Ulthuan, outside of the Foreign Quarter of Lothern. And crazily enough, the proposal worked. There's now a permanent Wyrdawi embassy of around two hundred Dawi, in the heart of Lothern, mingling and befriending the krutting Elgi. I wonder if all that time in Norsca has addled those snow-huggers. Can't they see that befriending Elgi will not help them in any way.

Seems the Elves are intending to prove their own interest in this new alliance. They've sent an embassy to Kraka Drak, and the word on the streets of Lothern is that Finubar is intending to visit Kraka Drak.

I wonder if Silverbeard is doing this on purpose. That wazzock is gonna cause a Second War of the Beard. If Arngrim becomes High King, you can bet your beard there will be a war.

Perhaps it would be best if he didn't return from the Wastes.

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And here's the one that upset the applecart and there is a lot to unpack..So let's take it from the top.

Holy shit, we got agents in Lothern, aka the Elven trade center yeah...that's friggin big. That will net us huge amounts of information either directly or indirectly.

Also love the little sketch, Ansgar is such a goof at times and I love it.

And here we come to a big bit: Teclis getting mutual Embassies set up between the Elves and the Krakka Drakk Dawi. I really hope the war that some see as coming is able to be averted...cause honestly, this is to the good and is a good start to mending the rift between the races.

As for Arngrim, I know all this talk is hypothetical...but I think in general there's been a lot of jumping the gun. We need to meet Arngrim, see how much we, Thorgrim, and others can discuss with him on the matter, especially if we fight and bond together as that's a big thing in Dawi if everyone recalls WoG, before we decided if we need to kill him, let alone how.

I'm not discounting the possibility that we will and that just...focusing on a different part of the battle when he's risking being overrun might not work...but at the same time who knows if Arngrim doesn't come to terms with the fact that the Krakka Drakk Dawi are their own thanks to the efforts on the Expedition.

We have a lot of options and trying to set down what we're going to do this far in advance with so much in the air or in flux seems hasty in the extreme.

Karaz Ankor population census:

I thought to send some informants to the Everpeak and get the latest census from the Karaz Ankor. It might help you to plan out what you'll be doing, going forward.

The Everpeak is currently at around 150,000 Dawi. Sounds like a lot. But the Karak can hold a million Dawi easily, and still have all the halls be underpopulated.

Zhufbar is at around 60.000 Dawi. They've grown the last few centuries, but their growth has plateaud in the face of constant Skaven Aggression.

Karak Kadrin is at roughly 56,000 Dawi. The constant influx of slayers tends to help their population growth, as many of these Slayers stick to the Karak, waiting for the Throng to march out in order to join them.

Barak Varr just hit 100,000 for the first time since the Time of Woes. They've grown from a combination of immigrants from smaller communities, and the centuries of relative peace and prosperity they've been able to enjoy.

Karak Hirn is at 30.000 Dawi. But they've been declining heavily. There's a thousand Dawi less each generation from the attrition of fighting constant Skaven and Greenskin aggression.

Karak Izor is at around 30,000 Dawi. Give or take a few thousand. Thirty thousand is around where most Karaks stabilize. Especially the many in the Vaults and Grey Mountains. Karak Izor has become a place where many of the followers of Belegar Ironhammer have gathered, waiting for the day when they'll march to retake Karak Eight Peaks.

Karak Azul has hit 67,000 Dawi. The home of nearly all the refugee clans of the Southern World's Edge, and equipped with probably the majority of the Karaz Ankor's newly forged runeweapons. They've grown very prosperous from their well developed mines and industry, and their agriculture across the peaks of Karak Azul have kept them fed.

Karak Ziflin hit 30,000 Dawi. But most of them are farmers and labourers. They've not discovered any gold recently, and primarily have tin, lead, and some iron. I don't know what keeps so many Dawi together in such a poor territory. Perhaps its because the farmland is good and relatively easy to defend. They're stubborn, I have to admit.

Karak Azgal hit two thousand Dawi, apparently. I did not know it, but according to the Everpeak Census, there exists a community of around two thousand Dwarfs, on top of the ruins of Karak Azgal, named "Skalf's Hold" which is dedicated primarily to bringing up treasures from the fallen hold. No mines needed. Just expeditions willing to brave the depths.

Expatriates: Around 30,000 Dawi now live in the Empire. But they are spread out across the manling realm. Still. They really should have more control over the Empire, if you ask me.

Click to shrink...

Everpeak really drives it home just how many Dawi have fallen...oof.

Yeah can't say that Zhufbar plateauing thanks to skaven attacks surprises me. but overall that means it takes this much to put a hold on their population growth is a good sign for when it isn't. Might actually be looking at a slow but steady growth for the Dawi again, at least in Zhufbar.

Not surprised on Kadrin, at the very least the Slayers would mitigate the losses that the throng and general population might take in the course of things.

Damn...Barak Varr has 100,000 dawi and they are *still* risking being shorthanded with their naval growth...that really puts it into perspective on how much they're throwing into things.

Oooof, Karak Hirn needs to be relieved and quick, or they're going to be ground to nothing if these losses keep up...hopefully the gear we've helped them get will lower that number of losses each generation significantly.

Karak Izor yup, they're stable but with Belegar there that number might change in a bit later on.

Huh, Karak Azul is doing pretty well overall, hopefully we can prevent the King from going from dwarven Volstagg the Mighty, to dwarven Punisher. As it is, they're in a good place to keep growing if we can do well in K8P.

Poor Ziflin, they mean well and do well but they got so little love from GW so they're basically a blank slate. As it is, hopefully we can help them get more prestige.

Oh yeah! I think there's a short story about this in Gotrek and Felix, thought it was a different one but makes sense it was Azgal.

And yeah can't say I'm surprised Ansgar thinks Dawi should have more say in Sigmar's empire

News from the Umgi realms:
Rolled 14

There is a clipping from a paper in Nuln. Most likely one of the papers popular amongst the Burghers and Gentry of that city. Your eyes move over the name of the article, and you let out a groan.

The Nuln Times:

The King of Bretonnia is dead!

The horse-loving ignorant fool had come to Nuln to discuss a peaceful solution to the threat of war between our glorious Empire and their backwards realm. But he has gone and gotten his throat slit in the middle of the night! Servants found him dead in his bed, throat cut, and the sheets turned red with his blood! Was it by a jealous knight? An assassination attempt by a relative? Who knows. But at least with him gone, it will take some time before the Bretonnians are ready for war.

I'd bet a lock of my beard this was the Skaven. Typical of them to pit the Umgi against each other. Bah! And it is probably going to work. Even if both sides know the Skaven are responsible, there is just too much bad blood between the two to not have some measure of conflict.

The Dukes of Carcassone and Couronne have already declared that this failure to protect their monarch by the Empire must be punished with war, and they have gathered their peasant levies and knights to do this. But so far, the Empire has defeated any attempt by Bretonnia to force the mountain passes.

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Faking skaven! *grumble grumble grumble* here's hoping that the war isn't too bloody but still, not a good thing when the Empire is a target of the Skaven as well...meh. and this was a roll for us finding out about it so nm we could have done either.

Wissenland intensified colonization of Northern Solland:
Rolled 17 for quality of information.

Many informants and contacts in Wissenland have been going silent lately. Their military expansion and recolonization of North-Solland continues. But I can't tell you much about what they're planning. They're certainly heavily invested now, though. I doubt they're planning to leave any time soon.

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Meh, we got other priorities and how much of that gets reincorporated into Solland Proper is Averland and Magnus's concern, not ours. IF we assume that the border will be permanent we'll either be right or pleasantly surprised.

Rolled 97 on sanctum Intelligence for the situation in Araby.

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Oh wow...this is going to be *big* not gonna lie...I'm really glad we got this as what the 97 applied to.

Ansgar opens the door to your study, moving across from you and sitting down. You're not even surprised at his intrusion, and instead you perk up attentively, offering him the keg of beer. He shakes his head.

You grimace. Something is very wrong. You motion for him to speak with a wave of your hand. Ansgar shrugs, his body language portraying something along the lines of. "This isn't going to be fun."

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We got a good roll...so it's what they uncovered that is ick...oh dear, this is not a good.

"Something foul is happening in Araby, Bokri. And I do not like it." Ansgar says, filling a mug and swigging it down thirstily. "Just received word from an informant in Araby that he thinks he's found the place that the Gromril is being refined. It is somewhere relatively close to Copher, the Spice Port. The Ironclad that delivers the Gromril Ore docks there, and is loaded by Dawi from those Clans who we spotted heading down to Araby." Ansgar glares gloomily at your roaring hearth.

"Go on." You say, pouring a mug of beer for both you and Ansgar. "It has to be serious if you're not gonna put it in your next report."

"The Informant talked with some of the locals. Locals who have some very interesting stories. The stories mention squat figures draped in robes attacking tribes in the dead of night, wiping out whole communities and leaving nothing but bullet-riddled corpses."

Ansgar puts a pointed lead bullet down on the table. "Expensive rounds too. Connical lead balls. Probably very useful for gunning down tribes from a distance."

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And we don't even know where the Ore is coming from...this is just relating to the refining set up...yikes. This really does give me thoughts that this is more Tomb kings or other shady peoples giving the Ore up...

The fact that they're slaughtering whole groups just on the chance they might get to see something they shouldn't...i'm surprised there's Dawi that would go for that.

You grimace. "So they're shooting the locals if they get too close to their mine. "You put the mug down. "That's foul. Do you think the rest of this Gromril supply chain knows?"
Ansgar shrugs and lets out a noise somewhere between a groan and a growl. "I have a theory. Remember those mercenaries and other thugs that we spotted heading to Araby. Those might as well have disappeared from the face of the Karaz Ankor. But I kept looking into them, and discovered something… disturbing." He looks at you. "They're Unbaraki. A band of oathbreakers, murderers, and thieves. Each of them has been exiled on pain of death by at least one Clan. I bet they are being used as muscle to wipe out any humans that get too close to the mine."

Your eyes go wide. "Barak Varr is hiring -kinslayers- for what they're doing in Araby?"

Ansgar nods. "Kinslayers and thugs. They haven't been seen since they left, even in the Dawi quarter of Copher. As small as it is. The Dawi from Zhufbar we suspect are mining and refining the Gromril? They're in Copher occasionally. The local Sultan even gave them the right to build a foundry far inland, near a large river which they're probably using to supply water to their industry."

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...Oh...that's where theDawi came from...so they basically got disposable assets to shift the blame on in terms of the messed up actions. As it is, if there *is* a mine in Araby that they're getting the ore from instead of sketchy trade, that's...technically one less bad thing happening but it still doesn't change that Barak Varr hiring kinslayers is serious sketch to put it mildly.

You try to put the information together in your head. "So. We know the Miner's Guild receives the Gromril or at least knows it is being mined. The smelters and forgers are near Copher, and have a foundry which can easily serve as a front for their efforts. And the locals are being gunned down by what's probably Dawi." You take a sip from your beer. "I'd bet that's why they hired those oathbreakers and kinslayers. Thugs to do the work that other Dawi don't want to."

Ansgar nods. "Although. I don't think we can do anything about what they're doing. Shooting Umgi who get too close to a mine isn't illegal. Although, hiring Unbaraki is pretty shameful. It is not illegal either. And I don't think you want King Byrrnoth to get a trim and a haircut. Certainly not right now."

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Yeah, King Byrrnoth is overall a solid ally but this is a tangled mess of 'legal but not ethical'.

You grimace at the flippant description of taking the Slayer Oath. But he's right. You don't want Barak Varr to be denied such a forward-thinking King. Not now. "Then what do you suggest, Ansgar?"

The Ranger shrugs. "I'm at the end of my rope. If you blow the whistle. It will not take long for the Skaven to find that mine. And the Karaz Ankor needs the Gromril badly." he pauses. "I'll continue keeping an eye on what they're doing. But we're at a dead end. I'll tell you when I've found an opening. In any case. You won't have much time to get involved in this." He grins sheepishly. "You're going on an expedition next year."

You groan. "You don't need to remind me."

There is no definitive proof of anything illegal going on with Barak Varr's secret Gromril Mine, and Ansgar has run into a wall with his investigation. When an opening is revealed to get further involved, Ansgar will tell you.

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Yeah, if they've just found a mine in Araby that they're hiring sketchy dwarves to guard and such...meh, rather not risk the operation and causing it to be lost to skaven...at the same time, we need a better deal from the Miner's Guild. I have some ideas on how to go forward from this but they merit their own post and I don't want them getting buried.

Let me offer a compromise.

Killing arngrim publicly is guaranteed Slayerdom. Even secretly is a load of shame, with a chance of being uncovered.

Letting him get himself killed is different. That's a popular method for Dawi to get rid of rivals.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and even then there's a lot of factors leading up to this that I think we need to see settled before I am willing to agree on what to do. Too soon, and too much in the air overall.

 

[argenten]

Thoughts on how to handle the Miner's guild situation and the Barak Varr Gromril Mine.

My biggest thought, if we don't want our ally in Barak Varr to take the Slayer Oath...is we don't focus on the blackmail part.

Instead, we go to our ally and focus on instead the Miner Guild's atrocious deal they made, elaborate on our Gromril size, and in short ask our good, dear friend if he has any advice for us or if there's anything he can do to help.

Basically, we do our best to hit home how much *his* operation is affecting us and use either the guilt or even just make a trade deal to get support/leverage with the Miner's Guild to get a better deal.

We basically want to be able to get access to our gromril and be paid a decent price for it, as long as Barak Varr isn't doing anything that would *demand* we expose them, we shouldn't. So I'm saying we go for the 'friend in need' approach rather than trying to strongarm an ally with something that could go explosively bad if the dice deem it so.

The blackmail angle is something we only do if we have no other course.

Heck, maybe we can ask him if he can suggest any really good reckoners to handle our deal?

 

[thefoolswriter]

That's blackmail

 

[argenten]

That's blackmail

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No, blackmail would be going to him and either indirectly or directly relating that we know about what he's doing.

I'm suggesting we just...go to him as an ally and friend and describe how the Minter's guild shafted us, how we refused to be fleeced as clan or guild, and ask what help he can give. We don't need to be heavy handed to have an effect. We leverage the *good* relationship to solving our problem instead of his wrongdoing.

Basically let his own conscience do the work for us, and if all else fails it does leave the blackmail option open.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I don't think there's really a way to use the gromril situation to our advantage without blackmail, so we should probably just avoid it entirely. Especially since if it works and then something else brings this situation to light later we'll be hit with some backlash for knowingly being part of it.

If we want a better deal I think we need to actually start playing politics instead of trying to brute force things.

The miner's guild is unlikely to be a monolithic organization without any significant external dependencies.

I think a good place to start would be the internal fault lines. Find the people with influence in the guild and use the guild to form a connection.

Help our new friends get to good deposits before their rivals, clear out lost mines, maybe get some specialists to act as first responders during accidents. Then move to more personal favors.

Dwarves love their relics, and rangers can skip into a lot of places. How many friends could we make by retrieving great grandpa's favorite hammer from the vaults of a fallen hold? Or reuniting families separated by crisis? What's confirming the status of a hold sealed for centuries worth to someone who doesn't know what happened to their kin there?

Ideally we'd get some people with the skill set required to manage the gromril mine, and try to get them involved specifically do that our new friends in the guild have a stake in our operations. Then the guild master has to start justifying everything in the face of people he can't brush off.

If we have the energy we could make it even worse by playing the same game with other guilds.

We could be very useful reagent gatherers for the runesmiths, among a number of other services to name one.

With all the expansion they're trying to do more gromril would be very nice. We'd even consider discounts for apprentices of our good friends, if we could get it out of the ground that is. Too bad the guild master won't dig it up for less than 95% of the net profit.

We could ruin his whole century and make him thank us for it by doing it in a way that technically strengthens his guild.

 

[argenten]

I don't think there's really a way to use the gromril situation to our advantage without blackmail, so we should probably just avoid it entirely. Especially since if it works and then something else brings this situation to light later we'll be hit with some backlash for knowingly being part of it.

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I disagree with this in the sense that there are ways to leverage our connection to the King without using blackmail. We have been helping his hold a great deal, through trade, Ranger Missions and other.

Even if all we do is describe the situation with the Miner's guild sans our knowledge of what he's doing...we can literally do what you're describing below, play politics and get him to use what influence *he* has to help us get a better deal.

He's obviously going to have pull with the Miner's guild from the Arabyan gromril, so even if it isn't used on the basis of blackmail, i fail to see how reaching out to an ally that we privately know has a lot of pull won't help in the playing politics angle. The main difference between this and going to someone else like say, Ranulf of Karak Hirn, is that we thanks to our intelligence *know* that Barak Varr's king has ways he can push to get us a better deal.

If we want a better deal I think we need to actually start playing politics instead of trying to brute force things.

The miner's guild is unlikely to be a monolithic organization without any significant external dependencies.

I think a good place to start would be the internal fault lines. Find the people with influence in the guild and use the guild to form a connection.

Help our new friends get to good deposits before their rivals, clear out lost mines, maybe get some specialists to act as first responders during accidents. Then move to more personal favors.

Dwarves love their relics, and rangers can skip into a lot of places. How many friends could we make by retrieving great grandpa's favorite hammer from the vaults of a fallen hold? Or reuniting families separated by crisis? What's confirming the status of a hold sealed for centuries worth to someone who doesn't know what happened to their kin there?

Ideally we'd get some people with the skill set required to manage the gromril mine, and try to get them involved specifically do that our new friends in the guild have a stake in our operations. Then the guild master has to start justifying everything in the face of people he can't brush off.

If we have the energy we could make it even worse by playing the same game with other guilds.

We could be very useful reagent gatherers for the runesmiths, among a number of other services to name one.

With all the expansion they're trying to do more gromril would be very nice. We'd even consider discounts for apprentices of our good friends, if we could get it out of the ground that is. Too bad the guild master won't dig it up for less than 95% of the net profit.

We could ruin his whole century and make him thank us for it by doing it in a way that technically strengthens his guild.

Click to shrink...

This is basically what we're doing already, it's how we went from 3/10 to 6/10 with Karak Norn, how we've gotten positive relations with the Engineer's guild, gotten Ranulf to stop plotting against us, made connections with Thorek through Garek and the spreading of Snorri's gifts.

So i'm down with this plan but it's not something new, just something we'll have to keep doing as a matter of course and make sure we balance our own needs with the needs of Karaz Ankor as per our speech to our hold after refusing the Miner Guild deal.

 

[BronzeTongue]

This is basically what we're doing already, it's how we went from 3/10 to 6/10 with Karak Norn, how we've gotten positive relations with the Engineer's guild, gotten Ranulf to stop plotting against us, made connections with Thorek through Garek and the spreading of Snorri's gifts.

So i'm down with this plan but it's not something new, just something we'll have to keep doing as a matter of course and make sure we balance our own needs with the needs of Karaz Ankor as per our speech to our hold after refusing the Miner Guild deal.

Click to shrink...

With the holds yeah, but not in any targeted way with the guilds.

Just being helpful is good policy, but to turn it into political capital we need to be developing people who can do things for us as resources.

Then we need to actively use them to apply pressure once we have the reach for it.

It's possible I've missed something, but the current strategy seems to be pumping general approval numbers up with broader actions and then using the reputation from doing so to get things.

In terms of political connections Bokri has a few relatively high level people, but is otherwise isolated from the internal operations of significant portions of dwarf society.

If he wasn't then we probably would have been able to guess what the guild master was going to do before sitting down at that table, and would have more direct options for dealing with it than trying to blackmail an ally into using his contacts for us.

 

[argenten]

I think in regards to political connections...we just need to give it time. We got a major one with Coppertwist thanks to both Vikki and our own working with the guilds, we got an in with the Rune related Guilds thanks to Garek and Thorek. In terms of political connections and leverage...we're still very new and thus will need time to garner them. Being helpful at the very least helps us meet the people who can do things for us, like Coppertwist as an example.

We're in the Vaults/Black/Grey mountains, we're not going to be *not* isolated from the Worlds Eldge mountains in terms of location and how we are perceived, regardless of where our clan was originally, so at the very least using the basis of as I said before being helpful and proving ourselves, it at least gives us chances to meet people.

Quite frankly, unless we neglected setting up our hold to focus on politicking in the world's edge mountains, there's not much we could have done to prevent the Miner's guild situation.

Heck, the low roll just meant we couldn't renegotiate, not prevent it completely. We are starting from the ground up as both clan and guild...that means being out of the loop and needing to use what intelligence we do get to best effect...like going to an ally we know has the pull to get help without obviously blackmailing him. because that is a thing we can do, we aren't locked into bending him over a barrel with it. We just go to him first because thanks to our private intelligence, we know he'll have more impact than most as of now. It may be that we find out more info later that makes it a moot point.

But even the King of Barak Varr suggesting a Reckoner or asking Okri to ease up on the unfairness of the deal is still a win for us and we don't have to blackmail him to get it.

There are plenty of ways to be political and leveraging connections without airing dirty laundry.

 

[jjffjhjf]

With the holds yeah, but not in any targeted way with the guilds.

Just being helpful is good policy, but to turn it into political capital we need to be developing people who can do things for us as resources.

Then we need to actively use them to apply pressure once we have the reach for it.

It's possible I've missed something, but the current strategy seems to be pumping general approval numbers up with broader actions and then using the reputation from doing so to get things.

In terms of political connections Bokri has a few relatively high level people, but is otherwise isolated from the internal operations of significant portions of dwarf society.

If he wasn't then we probably would have been able to guess what the guild master was going to do before sitting down at that table, and would have more direct options for dealing with it than trying to blackmail an ally into using his contacts for us.

Click to shrink...

If we'd rolled well there we might have had a very different deal offered to us. Rolls effect the world and build up the background in ways we can't tell until we run into it.

 

[argenten]

If we'd rolled well there we might have had a very different deal offered to us. Rolls effect the world and build up the background in ways we can't tell until we run into it.

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Maybe, i took the note attached to that scene to mean the deal was fixed and the low roll meant the renegotiation was prevented.

But aside from that, that's a very fair take and we can only be in so many places at once.

And in a way, I think we were going to run into this in some fashion thanks to how we were formed and how many Guildmasters took umbrage to it. We either work our way to respectability through trade and mutual aid, like we did with Coppertwist, or we approach them directly when we get the chance and at last make a good impression like we did with Ungrim.

 

[jjffjhjf]

Maybe, i took the note attached to that scene to mean the deal was fixed and the low roll meant the renegotiation was prevented.

But aside from that, that's a very fair take and we can only be in so many places at once.

And in a way, I think we were going to run into this in some fashion thanks to how we were formed and how many Guildmasters took umbrage to it. We either work our way to respectability through trade and mutual aid, like we did with Coppertwist, or we approach them directly when we get the chance and at last make a good impression like we did with Ungrim.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I suppose the more things we run into, the more things Mayto will roll for, and the information those rolls generate can then be potentially learned eventually. Making getting intel sources from as wide an area as possible key to understanding what's out there and who might have it in for us... but also potentially making a lot more work for Mayto to handle all that. So balance is likely important there.

 

[DeusFerreus]

If we saved Arngrim's life, it might well change his attitude towards us personally to the point where Arngrim becoming High King wouldn't be so bad for us personally. He, like his father Alrik, would have gotten a very visceral demonstration of the value of the Ranger's Guild. Say because the demonic monster that was about to kill him,

Click to shrink...

The issue problem with Alrik becoming High King, and the reason I, at least, want him dead is not the fact that he doesn't like us/our guild (it's a problem but not an insurmountable one, as long as we do good work and impress the Karaks he could hinder us, but there would be little he could do that could trully harm us), the issue is that if he's High King there's an extremely high of chance of him starting a fucking Dwarven civil war, which would be an unmitigated disaster of cataclysmic proportions and, IMO, the closest thing to fail state of the quest we could get short of loosing our hold or our clan getting wiped out.

 

[argenten]

Yeah, I suppose the more things we run into, the more things Mayto will roll for, and the information those rolls generate can then be potentially learned eventually. Making getting intel sources from as wide an area as possible key to understanding what's out there and who might have it in for us... but also potentially making a lot more work for Mayto to handle all that. So balance is likely important there.

Click to shrink...

It's why I'm glad we got the information service for the Ranger Guild done when we did cause the more we know, the more we can respond to, use, or even keep in mind.

The main problem with Alrik becoming High King, and the reason I, at least, want him dead is not jthat he doesn't like us/our guild (it's a problem but not an insurmountable one, as long as we do good work and impress the Karaks he could hinder us, but there would be little he could do that could trully harm us), the issue is that if he's High King there's an extremely high of chance of him starting a fucking Dwarven civil war, which would be an unmitigated disaster of cataclysmic proportions and, IMO, the closest thing to fail state of the quest we could get.

Click to shrink...

And that would indeed be bad, but also the expedition is a hedged bet by Alriksson that Arngrim and Thorgrim can meet in the middle as well as bond over the matter, as much as it is a chance for a rival to be eliminated and I think jumping straight to 'how can we off him' is premature.

Now, if he proves intractable and unyielding on the matter of the Krakka Drakk dwarves, as well as other matters, that feeling for me will change, but let's keep our options open and not consign the dwarf to be offed before they've happened eh?

 

[Mayto]

I've just got a hidden list of world events that are gonna happen, and subjects each rumour turn will check in on. The rolls will determine what your intelligence service picks up.

 

[argenten]

I've just got a hidden list of world events that are gonna happen, and subjects each rumour turn will check in on. The rolls will determine what your intelligence service picks up.

Click to shrink...

Oh that's a neat idea, and yeah, us having to roll to see how much info we get is a good way to balance us getting information without it being too much hassle or bloat for you.

 

[Mayto]

The main problem with Alrik becoming High King, and the reason I, at least, want him dead is not jthat he doesn't like us/our guild (it's a problem but not an insurmountable one, as long as we do good work and impress the Karaks he could hinder us, but there would be little he could do that could trully harm us), the issue is that if he's High King there's an extremely high of chance of him starting a fucking Dwarven civil war, which would be an unmitigated disaster of cataclysmic proportions and, IMO, the closest thing to fail state of the quest we could get.

Click to shrink...

The Phoenix King himself is going to visit Kraka Drak, and has allowed them to put an embassy in Lothern outside the quarter meant for foreigners. He really wants that alliance with Kraka Drak.

Ansgar isn't exaggerating when he says that Arngrim attacking Kraka Drak could lead to a Second War Of The Beard. This time with one side consisting of elves -and- dwarfs.

 

[argenten]

The Phoenix King himself is going to visit Kraka Drak, and has allowed them to put an embassy in Lothern outside the quarter meant for foreigners. He sees the benefits of befriending Kraka Drak.

Ansgar isn't exaggerating when he says that Arngrim attacking Kraka Drak could lead to a Second War Of The Beard. This time with one side consisting of elves -and- dwarfs.

Click to shrink...

In a real way, this is a political Coup or can be seen as one, on the part of the elves, framing their actions as a way of showing "We are not continuing the conflict. We seek to move on and move past it. It is a pity that the Dwarves of the Karaz Ankor cannot do the same..." and so on.

Not sure they will do that but it would arguably set the stage for them being the innocents in the second war between them, let alone changing how many perceive the previous one.

Overall, the elves have no reasons not to befriend Krakka Drakk.

In less political terms, the Phoenix King could easily see this as a first, solid step in mending the rift between the races by using Krakka Drakk as an example of how it *is* possible to reignite the old alliance, and that, even if the past cannot be undone, mutual assistance between Dwarves and Elves benefits everyone involved.

 

[DragonParadox]

The main problem with Alrik becoming High King, and the reason I, at least, want him dead is not jthat he doesn't like us/our guild (it's a problem but not an insurmountable one, as long as we do good work and impress the Karaks he could hinder us, but there would be little he could do that could trully harm us), the issue is that if he's High King there's an extremely high of chance of him starting a fucking Dwarven civil war, which would be an unmitigated disaster of cataclysmic proportions and, IMO, the closest thing to fail state of the quest we could get.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much, all well and good to hope that they will make up and meet in the middle, but there is nothing about going out into the Wastes that is inherently a bonding experience that will make it all better. Hell that close to the Realm of Chaos it will probably fan the flames of hate and rage all the brighter.

Speaking as the person who still thinks we are all going to die on that mission I do not think we should count on anything good coming out of a mission to the Chaos Wastes

 

[argenten]

Send them both out on a dangerous mission and hope they learn to get along.

Dawi bonds forged in battle are strong.

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I thinkk I'm going to trust WoG and in setting logic myself. Yeah it might not work, but Alriksson wouldn't be doing this if it didn't have a chance of working one way or another.

Arngrim and Thorgrim don't hate each other as far I know, and it's merely just...political differences in priorities. Projecting and trying to justify it doesn't actually make it the case.


In the end, we need to see what happens before we make a decision instead of coming to a decision and bending both what we see and what we don't see into pretzels to justify that stance.

Yeah the language says 'hope they learn to get along' but at the very least there's an equal chance they can respect each other enough to take each other's advice into light. It might not work, I freely acknowledge that, but that doesn't mean it's sure to fail, and trying to justify assuming that it will fail gets us nowhere.

 

[BelligerentGnu]

In less political terms, the Phoenix King could easily see this as a first, solid step in mending the rift between the races by using Krakka Drakk as an example of how it *is* possible to reignite the old alliance, and that, even if the past cannot be undone, mutual assistance between Dwarves and Elves benefits everyone involved.

Click to shrink...

The thing that bugs me is that if the elves really want to be the bigger species and move past old wounds, there is one thing they not only *can* do, but *must* do. And that's make a start -at a minimum - on paying off every grudge the dwarves have against elves that can be paid with gold.

The elves are bloody swimming in wealth, and even a slow and steady trickle would have massive symbolic resonance. It would say, "we were wrong, back then, and we want to make amends." The tone shift would move Mountains, so to speak.

 

[Mayto]

The thing that bugs me is that if the elves really want to be the bigger species and move past old wounds, there is one thing they not only *can* do, but *must* do. And that's make a start -at a minimum - on paying off every grudge the dwarves have against elves that can be paid with gold.

The elves are bloody swimming in wealth, and even a slow and steady trickle would have massive symbolic resonance. It would say, "we were wrong, back then, and we want to make amends." The tone shift would move Mountains, so to speak.

Click to shrink...

The Dwarfs literally killed every elven colonist they could get their hands on during the War of Vengeance, down to the children, and waged their war like a campaign of genocide.

The elves want to move on. But they are never going to say sorry. Especially not for grudges accrued defending the elven colonies from dwarf attacks.

 

[jjffjhjf]

The thing that bugs me is that if the elves really want to be the bigger species and move past old wounds, there is one thing they not only *can* do, but *must* do. And that's make a start -at a minimum - on paying off every grudge the dwarves have against elves that can be paid with gold.

The elves are bloody swimming in wealth, and even a slow and steady trickle would have massive symbolic resonance. It would say, "we were wrong, back then, and we want to make amends." The tone shift would move Mountains, so to speak.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's unlikely. Elves don't really do the whole "we were wrong" thing very well..

 

[argenten]

The Dwarfs literally killed every elven colonist they could get their hands on during the War of Vengeance, down to the children, and waged their war like a campaign of genocide.

The elves may want to move on. But they are never going to say sorry.

Click to shrink...

This was actually different than I was thinking, which was wondering if there *were* any grudges which could be repaid with Weregild rather than the death of someone from a bloodline.

But this is also a valid point, both sides did terrible things to each other in the War of Vengeance, so yeah...neither is feeling in the mood to forgive.