The Strongest Lifeform II: Walk Forward Young Champion [ToG/Campione]

[Graig]

Core temperature. Being able to fuck shit up before we touch it by focusing and directing that heat is still pretty nice.

Look, we already fuck over physics to an extent. I look at the concept of the idea and think, "Okay, yes, we're bending physics are they are understood over a barrel. The point is that in some cases physics works for us, so we negate the parts that don't and amplify the stuff that does for greater effect compared to when we just go fuck you physics we do what we want.'

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The technique is basically heating up air with Electrical Shinsoo and then amplifying and manipulating the resulting plasma with Fire Shinsoo. This might be more efficient than just heating air with Fire Shinsoo but the fundamental problem that such heat transfer is not a good way of dealing damage remains.

ETA:
From that wikipedia article:

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That is energy transferred by electricity. Not heat transfer. You could probably get something like that with a standard lighting attack (which we can already do).

Also 10 cycles at 60 Hz is probably far longer than typical contacts in Enryu's fights and 0.8 pounds of TNT is not that much in those kinds of fights either.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Cool, we can wreck modern infrastructure.

Still would like versatility of laser light manipulation. For example if he doesn't like something he can imitate a laser printer and graffiti over that shit from a distance.

Also, playing kitten laser fishing. But with people instead of kittens and holographic projections instead of a red laser dot.

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Light based Lasers are possible.

Mazino, an Irregular, specializes in their use and his nickname "Ray Barracuda" comes from his use of Light based Shinsoo attacks.

 

[drake_azathoth]

It is not actually that impressive. Normal lighting bolts can have core temperatures of more than 50,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

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Core temperature. Yes. As I pointed out in the initial move, electricity is one of the best ways to superheat things. Even so, the 'pulse' of a lightning bolt only about 40 milliseconds. That's long enough to superheat a tree to the point it explodes. Perhaps we can even sustain a heat that intense, on closer examination plasma arc welders do indeed reach that temperature. Five times hotter than the surface of the sun, my mistake.

But the physics of a lightning bolt is very different from that of an arc welder. Suffice to say, an arc welder applies heat far more effectively and in a more sustained fashion. Even so, saying 'people survive being hit by lightning' is kinda deceptive. Yeah, direct lightning strikes have been survived. So have falls from terminal velocity. Doesn't mean that's not crazy shit.

 

[Vlad]

On a difficulty on 1 to 10 how hard would the Hell Stab/Bright Stab be for Roberto to perform?

The description for both is basically simple lightning channeling with no fancy effects. Channel as much lightning to hand and let physics do its work. This doesn't really indicate something that should be hard to do.

 

[confusopoly]

That is energy transferred by electricity. Not heat transfer. You could probably get something like that with a standard lighting attack (which we can already do).

Also 10 cycles at 60 Hz is probably far longer than typical contacts in Enryu's fights and 0.8 pounds of TNT is not that much in those kinds of fights either.

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This is also the effect you get with just 480 volts shorting out. It gets a lot more interesting at higher voltages. But you're right, we could just drop the whole interesting technique angle because anything that doesn't directly convert Shinsoo into kinetic energy can be argued to be inefficient in comparison.

 

[Alexander89]

The red highlighted words and letter indicate what needs to be added for grammatical correction.

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Fixed. Thanks.

On a difficulty on 1 to 10 how hard would the Hell Stab/Bright Stab be for Roberto to perform?

The description for both is basically simple lightning channeling with no fancy effects. Channel as much lightning to hand and let physics do its work. This doesn't really indicate something that should be hard to do.

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I'd say a 8 after perfecting it with a little training. More training of course help. You mean how easy he can pull it out in a fight? It's not immediate, like punching or shooting a laser: I think it's better performed like the Chidori, a change to add speed and kinetic energy. If you are worried about people avoiding it read the novel, Heretic Gods are so arrogant most of the time they don't dodge and just meet the attack head-on. Chivalry and all that, but boys it sure screw you over.

 

[Graig]

Core temperature. Yes. As I pointed out in the initial move, electricity is one of the best ways to superheat things. Even so, the 'pulse' of a lightning bolt only about 40 milliseconds. That's long enough to superheat a tree to the point it explodes. Perhaps we can even sustain a heat that intense.

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Just to be clear. The tree does not explode from heat transfer from the lightning bolt but from the heat generated by the electricity passing through the tree.

Also 40 miliseconds is not that short of a time in the kind of fights we can expect. Many Enryu's punches will punches will probably have far shorter contact times than that.

But the physics of a lightning bolt is very different from that of an arc welder. Suffice to say, an arc welder applies heat far more effectively and in a more sustained fashion. Even so, saying 'people survive being hit by lightning' is kinda deceptive. Yeah, direct lightning strikes have been survived. So have falls from terminal velocity. Doesn't mean that's not crazy shit.

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How exactly do arc welders apply heat more efficiently? Also it is not necessarily any more sustainable than heating something by passing electricity through it.

For which there is straight up hitting them with lighting.

Why do you have such a problem with one part of the attack that doesn't even encompass the whole thing? There's ludicrous heat, there's hit them with shittons of lightnings.

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But we can already hit them with lighting. Heat is all that would be special with this technique.

And not a good way of dealing damage? Uh, why do you think that/ Convection is a thing. Standing next to a pit of lava does not mean you'll be fine. You're gonna boil.

This is worse.

Outputting enough heat to boil their blood or maybe even make certain things straight up sublimate does not strike me as a bad thing to keep around.

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Yes convective heat transfer means that standing next to lava is a bad thing. But that generally acts over relatively long times. You probably won't die from standing next to lava for a few seconds (at least from the heat, there can be toxic fumes etc). Enryu figths at a very high pace and we can expect that the enemies he fights will often be much tougher than normal humans.

For example you would need a lot of heat transfer to kill faster than a normal bullet to the head.

 

[Vlad]

Just to be clear. The tree does not explode from heat transfer from the lightning bolt but from the heat generated by the electricity passing through the tree.

Also 40 miliseconds are not that short time in the kind of fights we can expect. Many Enryu's punches will punches will probably have far shorter contact times than that.

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To be more clear. The tree or sometime rock explode due to the lightning passing through pockets of water which instantly turns to steam on the path of the bolt and turn the tree into a pressure tank that can't take the sudden force the expanded water molecules does to it.

Yes convective heat transfer means that standing next to lava is a bad thing. But that generally acts over relatively long times. You probably won't die from standing next to lava for a few seconds (at least from the heat, there can be toxic fumes etc). Enryu figths at a very high pace and we can expect that the enemies he fights will often be much tougher than normal humans.

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I agree. Nuclear level thermal blasts probably are on the low end level of what it would be needed to have a effect on his fights.

I'd say a 8 after perfecting it with a little training. More training of course help. You mean how easy he can pull it out in a fight? It's not immediate, like punching or shooting a laser: I think it's better performed like the Chidori, a change to add speed and kinetic energy. If you are worried about people avoiding it read the novel, Heretic Gods are so arrogant most of the time they don't dodge and just meet the attack head-on. Chivalry and all that, but boys it sure screw you over.

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I apologize for my lack in phrasing.

I meant how long would it take for Enryu to learn due to how mechanically simple the move is beyond the ability to generate large amounts of electricity?

 

[drake_azathoth]

If it makes you feel better, consider it technobabble for a finishing move. That's generally what these moves are. Flavor text for how it fucks you up. Call it magic, call it chakra, call it whatever. It's not a scientific dissertation.

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Yeah... Frankly, we were given three free moves we were supposed to get that were based on Roberto's understanding of scientific principles rather than anime or manga or whatever crappy media he is a fan of. I frankly do not understand how Hell Stab even qualifies as that, or how it differs from 'punching someone with Magia Elysia and Lightning Element absorbed', but if someone else can come up with another move that is based on Roberto's understanding of science and is superior, I'd love to hear it.

 

[noahgab1133]

we must use pikachu on a japanese god or campione. The only exception is if we use a giant pikachu to do this.

 

[Alexander89]

Hmm.

If we continue to level Enchantment, will it upgrade the speed at which we think and the number of partitions we can maintain? Or have we already reached the point of diminishing returns?

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Yes. You haven't it yet for both, but for the former the limit is close.

I meant how long would it take for Enryu to learn due to how mechanically simple the move is beyond the ability to generate large amounts of electricity?

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Not much. He needs to write down the theory and then works off the kinks with practice. A week or two I would say.

 

[Vlad]

IIRC If you can summon 28,000+ Degrees Celsius heat inside (lets say a) 50 meter radius. Your throwing out a tad more then a low end nuclear thermal blast

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This is my point. The 28,000+ degree celcius in not in a 50 meter radius, but in a area no larger than the palm of his hand. Square cube law applies here so for that to be happening the plasma arc would need a lot hotter than what real life plasma arcs put out. Should not be a problem if Enryu has enough power to pump into it as the temperature scales to how much current is passed through.

 

[Graig]

More sustained lightning though, and extra heat is just a bonus.

Yes, we can fry a person with a lightning bolt. Presumably. And if that works, well, odds are we'll end up using it. Bright Stab is probably a more stylish 'fuck-you' attack. I mean really, by that logic why develop any other lightning based attack?

So if you've got a better idea for a project, we're listening.

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Well I did vote for the other alternative. But If I was going to design my own suggestion for a lighting based high penetration attack (which at least hell stab is supposed to be) I would consider something like generating a electron (or even a neutron) beam.

An electron beam could be created relatively easily with control of electic fields. A neutron beam could probably be created with our magnetism control but it would probably be much harder. On the other hand a neutron beam might have some nice properties due to lacking an electric charge.

I am fairly certain the heat we'd be producing is considerably more than lava.

And Campiones, in point of fact, are not considerably tougher without Authorities. Frankly the insane, directed, focused heat combined with the general lightning attack is probably more of a, "In how many ways can I lay on the hurt and fuck you up?"

Overkill strikes me as the theme here. Not just enough kill, as much kill as can be focused into a single attack.

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It would be considerably more than lava but it would still be an ineffective method. Also Campiones are actually much tougher than normal humans (C++/C+++ rank). They also get a lot of protection from their magic resistance.

If it makes you feel better, consider it technobabble for a finishing move. That's generally what these moves are. Flavor text for how it fucks you up. Call it magic, call it chakra, call it whatever. It's not a scientific dissertation.

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It being technobabble would be easier to accept if the description did not say that it works by "playing along with physics". It is not that I find the technique entirely unacceptable. It is just that I prefer the other option.

 

[Graig]

Yeah... Frankly, we were given three free moves we were supposed to get that were based on Roberto's understanding of scientific principles rather than anime or manga or whatever crappy media he is a fan of. I frankly do not understand how Hell Stab even qualifies as that, or how it differs from 'punching someone with Magia Elysia and Lightning Element absorbed', but if someone else can come up with another move that is based on Roberto's understanding of science and is superior, I'd love to hear it.

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I had actually forgotten about that. If that was a requirement then your suggestion is superior to hell stab.

 

[ryuan]

I wait for the day when Roberto can fight against Annie on equal footing and their reactions to it.

After all standing up to Heretic Gods or Campiones as a 'normal' human should be a complete and utter fluke of fate.

 

[confusopoly]

Another technique idea: HEAT rounds work by explosively forging a superheated jet of metal. We could probably do this by combining Earth and Fire Shinsoo in some way.

Basically, charge up a really huge amount of fire shinsoo, pull material for a projectile out of the ground, then superheat that by applying all the fire shinsoo at once, direct the blast using some Shinsoo force fields. If we get metal maybe add a railgun effect to that for some extra punch.

ETA:
Alternatively, compress about a tenth of Enryu's Baangs into one small "bullet", convert to fire element Shinsoo, then launch.

ETA2:
Or elemental versions of red rain with for example fire being concentrated into tiny bullets.

 

[Graig]

Any thoughts? And let's try and keep the themes going instead or pure power gaming.

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Just remove MY SOUL IS THAT OF A PEERLESS WARRIOR. Our character can do that extremely well already.

Okay...and why would this be a desirable move? Come on, let's hear some more.

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Such particle beams might be good at penetrating certain defenses (at least for neutrons) and the protection offered by magic resistance is likely to be reduced due to the indirect nature of the attack. Also it would be an exotic attack that most enemies might not be prepared for.

However on second thought it might be better to get something like x-ray laser instead.

Actually, if the heat generated is considered 'natural' then it might bypass it entirely. Depends on the fine print.

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Yes but making effects entirely natural appears to be quite hard in this magic system. The most I think we could realistically get would be a reduced effectiveness of magic resistance like what we get when we attack with conjured weapons.

Hang on. Your criticism with Bright Stab is that it is not scientific enough....but you're totally fine with hell stab even though penetrative lightning is pretty much a load of crap?

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Dude. We're using magic/ki/whatever.

Everything we do is something babble and your suspension of disbelief seems fine with that.

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Yeah hell stab is a load of crap but it is more vague and did not purport to work alongside physics so I found that description slightly more appealing.

 

[NSMS]

When people say particle beams, I think this:

 

[Graig]

An electron/neutron beam would also fall into the same trap of being natural, if that's your stance on the matter. I mean, there's quite a bit of matter in the world and we're not exactly operating in a particle accelerator. Keeping them on track could actually be fairly difficult without us straight up guiding with shinsoo, although I'd have to actually turn my brain on and research to confirm that.

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Yeah I don't expect that it would completely ignore MR but it is a good candidate for reducing it's effectiveness.

If you need to keep them on track with shinsoo depends on how much range and penetration you need. For a close range attack like this it would probably not be necessary after you have accelerated the particles.

 

[Graig]

And Spear, should someone be inspired.

Spear "Crimson Fist Of The Red Tower" - The Id-
MIND WITHOUT MIND - Facilitates reflexive and instinctive physical attack & defense.
I AM THE WEAPON - Things like Magia Elysia and Regeneration affect this spear just as they do Roberto.
MY SPEAR IS MY FIST - The spear and Roberto are inseparable. At will, he can cause it to become shinsoo and move to appear in his hands if somehow separated.
I AM THE FIST OF AN ANGRY GOD - Channeling shinsoo into the weapon can grant it additional density and mass while in motion without influencing it's speed. This can increase kinetic impact tremendously.

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The spear should definitely have some sort of ability that counters recovery abilities (like for example Voban's resurrection Authority). MIND WITHOUT MIND (like MY SOUL IS THAT OF A PEERLESS WARRIOR) does what our character can already do very well (especially when we get S-ranked skill), so that is probably the one that should be replaced. Here are a few suggestions for such an ability.

An ability that disrupts the Shinsoo inside the target, both reducing their remaining reserves and hampering their ability to recover more energy.

An ability that inserts hostile Shinsoo fragments inside the target that continue dealing damage and disrupt any attempts at healing.

An ability that directly damages the soul of the target.

 

[Jedarol]

[X] Bright Stab

because the bright stab is much better than the hell stab.. also if we can use it to create a flash of light.. hehehehe instant blinding effects are insanely useful as a distraction, even on opponents immune to the heat (sub god)

 

[HyperionTW]

Did we have another trinity proposed that the armor was going to be a part of?

 

[Krain]

Also, Alex mentioned we could use a Lighthouse to record or decipher Memories into the Void. I think this is a worthwhile topic to consider, so I pulled up drake's suggestions for the Lighthouse. And Spear, should someone be inspired.

Spear "Crimson Fist Of The Red Tower" - The Id-
MIND WITHOUT MIND - Facilitates reflexive and instinctive physical attack & defense.
I AM THE WEAPON - Things like Magia Elysia and Regeneration affect this spear just as they do Roberto.
MY SPEAR IS MY FIST - The spear and Roberto are inseparable. At will, he can cause it to become shinsoo and move to appear in his hands if somehow separated.
I AM THE FIST OF AN ANGRY GOD - Channeling shinsoo into the weapon can grant it additional density and mass while in motion without influencing it's speed. This can increase kinetic impact tremendously.

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You know, I think that the last ability here, might be better to make it something to just punch through healing/resurrection abilities...
Or somehow make it far worse to come back from being defeated (which is one of hte main things that'd screw us over in a fight).
Something to make it so that it'd be harder for an enemy to make a comeback.

Because, well, we can already do density manipulation.

Lighthouse "Ruby Eyes Of The Red Tower" - The Superego -
MY EYES ARE THE WINDOW TO MY SOUL - The Lighthouse has initiative and volition, it can work without direction according to what Roberto would consider 'correct'.
MY SOUL IS THAT OF A PEERLESS WARRIOR - The Lighthouse is superior at battle analysis, especially analyzing techniques and weaknesses.
NO ENEMY CAN ESCAPE MY POWER - The Lighthouse is superior at tracking an enemy once recognized, and the pursuit speed of it's cubes is far above the norm.
NO FOE CAN HIDE FROM MY WRATH - The Lighthouse's senses are well suited to detecting hidden enemies.

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Maybe, instead of pursuit speed for "No enemy can escape my power", we go with "massively increased range for info-gathering/keeping track of their target" - that way, even if someone manages to outspeed the cubes, we could still have them within range?
...And it might help gather info for other stuff, as well, without needing it to be an enemy, could get us some added utility for our info-gathering Lighthouse.

 

[Nervaqus987]

As it is, I think drake's still has a pretty good reflexive instinctive theme going. Or at least unifying with ourselves, so I'm satisfied. Making it as indestructible as us is good, as is making it impossible to separate us from our weapon. Also good, since we don't have an Arms Inventory to retrieve our weapon if we throw it like a Spear Bearer. And Mind Without Mind gives us a form of combat precog. I can see some of them going, but I'm not seeing reason to gut them for the other theme. Yours is built towards that one idea of hurling it and shredding them from within, but that's not something we really accomplish with one Ability Slot.
Also? Hunt is redundant, because we can use our Lighthouse to guide our shots I believe.

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We actually do have an Arms Inventory;

-Arms Inventory (D Rank): used to carry around things. Complete with Reel. Three Slots, all used: Bowl, Spear and "Room".

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Just not a very good one.

Well now I definitely can't vote for it, if we want Gae Bolg we can go find the Heretic God who had it or the mythical Gae Bolg if it's still on earth. Never mind the Nasuverse space-twisting attack, GB still ruins a person's day pretty damn effectively.

In fact that's actually a pretty awesome idea. Go hunting for legendary spears.

But yeah. I can get behind the idea of piercing all defenses, or something that adjusts to be able to pierce all defenses over the course of a battle and otherwise debuff the target, and something to keep them from recovering energy and health-wise.

I do want to make sure we have some kind of way to recover our Spear though. Either S-Rank Reels, or an Ability Slot to make it so we're never separated and can retrieve it over any distance

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We'd have to track down a Heretic God form of Cuchulain for that. And if he hasn't descended, then our options are "Hope he feels like coming down" or summon him ourselves.

And considering that we're currently plotting Voban's death for doing exactly that, I'm reasonably sure that Alex wouldn't let us.

There may be Magic Spears laying around, but most of those would be A) hidden away, B) too weak for our purposes, or C) in the hands of Royal Arsenal, the organization founded and lead by Alexander Gascoigne, the Prince of Black Thunder and Campione of England.

 

[Krain]

Hmmm for an ability to tack onto our speak, How about:

Denial of Conception - The spear actively attacks conceptual magic. Weapons that are powered by the concept of peerless weapon will find themselves mundane steel. Wounds and damage caused by it can only be healed or repaired in a mundane or indirect magical method. Notably this does not cover Shisoo abilities, only those powered by a concept are vulnerable.

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...I love this idea.
This is perfect!
Being able to just start fighting down something like this, and even if they somehow proved able to fight it off it'd take precious moments of focus during which we could just keep attacking.