The Politics of Tabletop RPGs

To quote
"how the fuck is including representation "pandering"? "

Every example you listed could be called representation. (That X group was represented in some fashion, by definition it was representation)
To say no when it's done badly it's appropriation not representation is simply "No true Scotsman"

You didn't answer the question.

"How is it pandering?"

Weak or badly done representation may be bad writing or objectionable for any number of other reasons.

But that doesn't make it "pandering"
 
I mean I should clarify that I 100% believe that even if Angron had succeeded in his revolution and had the Butcher's Nails removed from his head he'd still have been dangerously susceptible to Chaos and the silver tongues of Horus and Lorgar, because a liberated slave-gladiator is never going to be entirely chill with some of what the Emperor demands.

But, moving past that, I think it's important to remember that in a lot of ways Angron embraces his nature as a slave, or rather, he embraces the scars it left on him. He takes command of the War Hounds (after some time spent murdering their commanders who try to approach him in his grief) and the first thing he does is... give them the name of his old rebellion and implant them with the same nails that he and his brothers and sisters laboured under. The knot-like scars of victory and defeat that snake across his body are one of the only things he shows Kharn that matter because they're among the only things he still has to remember his origins.

And... well there are whole reams of literature on what the children of slaves make of their ancestor's slavery, and how modern society lives with the sins of their ancestors and the legacies of colonial oppression and so forth, way too much to go into here, but... yeah. The point is that Angron's revolution wasn't an ideological thing, it wasn't motivated by principles of equality and justice. It was a very pure and simple thing:

"You have murdered and enslaved us, and so we will eat your cities whole"

Most of the other Primarchs sneer at Angron or view him with pity and contempt for exactly the same reasons that so many people today sneer at black people for still being an underclass, for not 'getting over' their heritage as slaves, for their refusal to simply stand up and make something of themselves. They criticise him for not being willing to serve humanity, for his utter disdain for their high-minded ideals, for his decision to cling to savagery in thought and deed but... what have they ever done for him? What has the idea of empire done for Angron? What loyalty does he owe the Emperor, who stole from him the only things he cared about, the only people he could call his brothers?

The only Primarch who cared about Angron in any real way was, well, Lorgar. And we all know how that ended up.
The first thing Angron did to the War Hounds was kill a few dozen officers when all they wanted to do was speak with him. He would also proceed to decimate the Legion several times over the course of his leadership for the shittiest reasons, like not being able to conquer a world in 36 hours. When Istvann III happened, only the War Hounds weren't surprised at the betrayal and actually sought out Angron to try and kill him because they hated him so much. In fact, he never gave his Legion the Nails, they reversed engineered the things and started sticking the damn things inside themselves on their own in an attempt to get closer to Angron. He mostly saw it as an insult to his slave siblings.

Now, don't get me wrong, Angron is a sympathetic character because of what the Nails took from him and how the Emperor denied his wish to die beside his slave siblings, but we also know that Angron was capable of coherent and deep thought. He never tried to do differently, never stopped taking his hate out on other people, be they his Legion or the worlds he would set them on. It's as Guiliman said: "You're still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper." He traded his chains to the high riders for chains of hate for everything. Angron didn't get to choose very often in his life, those choices often taken from him. But when he could choose, he chose to be a monster rather than something better.

Does he owe the Imperium or the Emperor anything? No, not really. But he doesn't have to agree with literally anything about the Imperium to not be a monster.
 
Warning: WARNING
warning @armentho, your posts in this thread have not discussed the wide range of topics you've brought up in a mindful fashion, nor have most of them been particularly related to the actual thread topic. As the thread seems mostly back on track, you've only received a staff notice under rule 4.

While the topic here is fairly wide-ranging, and seems to have mostly gotten back on track, let's all keep things that way, okay? Goblin Slayer, violence in religious texts, etc have, or could have, their own threads for discussion.
 
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So, Chuck Tingle, famous for his off-the-wall porno stories, as well as his belief that love is real and will defeat the forces of the void- and has legit been publicly politically outspoken and quite famously was put into the Hugos as part of the 'Sad Puppy' campaign as part of their attempts to jam the ballot only to turn around and spend the entire campaign trashing them, has an RPG, the The Tingleverse, that was just released.

While ridiculous, it seems like one of the few RPGs likely to tackle the politics of sex- if in a very Tingle-esque way.
 
While ridiculous, it seems like one of the few RPGs likely to tackle the politics of sex- if in a very Tingle-esque way.
Tingle's probably more qualified than most people who would make the attempt, since he literally wrote a book titled Not Pounded At The Last Second Because Consent Can Be Given And Revoked At Any Moment And This Is A Wonderful Thing That's Important To Understand.

It's certainly a better set of bona fides than Wick or various WW authors have brought to the table when they tried to handle sex in tabletop gaming.
 
You didn't answer the question.

"How is it pandering?"

Weak or badly done representation may be bad writing or objectionable for any number of other reasons.

But that doesn't make it "pandering"

I wholly agree with your points here.

And in truth, I've been looking at this discussion for a bit, and it occurs to me that I really don't like the word "pandering". And I thought a bit about why I dislike it.

To me, the use of "pandering" always seems to carry the implication that representation of women, POC, LGBT+ people, Muslims, etc. always has some kind of ulterior motive. As if nobody could ever decide to include a main character in a story that isn't white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied, etc. just because it's part of the story or just because you give the role to the best person for the job. Or that, for example, a South Asian film director might try to tell the stories of South Asian people and their lives, communities, and experiences.

Instead, when something is described as "pandering": that something is always implied to be solely the result of someone trying to cash in on progressive values and representation. And that any media which contains prominent representation of people, communities, or social groups that have historically been marginalised is, in fact, just a cynical plot to earn money.

And at the end of the day, I think of that as a very corrosive attitude.
 
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Depends on the attribution. A director with a vision probably isn't pandering. A producer or executive looking to shareholder returns probably is. And so on.

And the profit motive is fair to discuss. It's important to consider what stories do and do not get told because someone, somewhere, decided which ones are going to make money and which ones will not.

However, I take a policy of extreme skepticism towards that any claim of "representation for profit" unless it's explicitly proven.

That all said, my caveats are as follows:

-We've only gotten greater amounts of representation in media and popular culture precisely because large amounts of people complained that they weren't being adequately represented in media. One benefit of engaging with companies that make products designed for popular consumption is that they are uniquely vulnerable to public opinion.

-It was once common practise to omit or marginalise the stories of women, POC, the LGBT+ community, or any other number of disadvantaged groups. It's not some kind of gimmick to start depicting disadvantaged groups and peoples in media, it's just a correction of decades or sometimes even centuries of erasing said peoples and their stories.

-While we can and certainly should debate the merits of certain films and whether or not they are a "good" representation of certain group(s). Past a certain point, the motives behind said representation are not germane to discussions of it. Representation is representation, and while we can debate whether it is good/bad representation, that fact remains.
 
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I wholly agree with your points here.

And in truth, I've been looking at this discussion for a bit, and it occurs to me that I really don't like the word "pandering". And I thought a bit about why I dislike it.

To me, the use of "pandering" always seems to carry the implication that representation of women, POC, LGBT+ people, Muslims, etc. always has some kind of ulterior motive. As if nobody could ever decide to include a main character in a story that isn't white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied, etc. just because it's part of the story or just because you give the role to the best person for the job. Or that, for example, a South Asian film director might try to tell the stories of South Asian people and their lives, communities, and experiences.

Instead, when something is described as "pandering": that something is always implied to be solely the result of someone trying to cash in on progressive values and representation. And that any media which contains prominent representation of people, communities, or social groups that have historically been marginalised is, in fact, just a cynical plot to earn money.

And at the end of the day, I think of that as a very corrosive attitude.

This is probably a more accurate summary of the use of the word in general discussion than the one that resonates with me.
When I see discussion of pandering, my mind first goes to a motive of deflecting criticism rather than profit motive. I imagine that scene in a 90s movie whose name I cannot recall, where one character uses "gay" as a pejorative then says "no offense" to the gay character, receiving a "none taken" in response.
To me, accusation of pandering means "Oh, so you thought by claiming one of your sockpuppets is one of us, we won't notice that your shit stinks?"
For this definition to work, the one leveraging the accusation needs to be a member of the group theoretically being pandered to.

To reiterate: this is the definition that resonates with me, rather than what I think the general usage to the word is.
 
The whole argument about adding people of different demographics is pandering kinda hinges on the false asumption that having straight white men cast is not itself pandering.
 
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Indeed, but their point is that the people who complain about "pandering" never apply it to the Grizzled White Guy Protagonist #447897, it's only ever used for any work that dares to have a character who belongs to some other demographic.

Which is interesting :thonk:

Exactly, it's at this point that we have to consider the typical use of the word in addition to its actual meaning. When we hear the word pandering, it's as you say, we're usually hearing it in reference to representation of non-white, non-male, non-heterosexual, etc. characters. Plus, media that does have this representation often gets subjected to more harsh criticism than media which doesn't. And we really have to consider why that's a thing.

And although this issue is perhaps more immediately visible in things like film and TV, it definitely exists in the space of Tabletop RPGs too. Though I think it's somewhat minimised because of the very compartmentalised nature of tabletop games. There are a lot of self-contained tabletop RPG fandoms that don't really interact with people outside of said fandom.
 
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Exactly, it's at this point that we have to consider the typical use of the word in addition to its actual meaning. When we hear the word pandering, it's as you say, we're usually hearing it in reference to representation of non-white, non-male, non-heterosexual, etc. characters. Plus, media that does have this representation often gets subjected to more harsh criticism than media which doesn't. And we really have to consider why that's a thing.

And although this issue is perhaps more immediately visible in things like film and TV, it definitely exists in the space of Tabletop RPGs too. Though I think it's somewhat minimised because of the very compartmentalised nature of tabletop games. There are a lot of self-contained tabletop RPG fandoms that don't really interact with people outside of said fandom.

Do we? I think the most common use of pandering I've seen is related to media made for straight men by straight men?

Like, fan service is often called pandering?
 
I apologize for such a sudden interjection, but recently, I have been thinking about something.

If we were to compare the amount of work put into various combat mechanics in the most popular tabletop RPG on the marker to that put into such things as non-combat resolutions, it would be safe to say that they typically put more emphasis on violent ways to resolve a situation, be that spell or sword or laser or anything such.

Naturally, I realize that tabletop games originate from wargames and such and that people typically fight combat to be more engaging than any alternatives. This is a common fact, and I am not going to criticize Dungeons & Dragons for going into dungeons to slay dragons.

The question that interests me personally is what alternatives there are and what they can be. For example, Golden Sky Stories, a rather niche game, discourages its players from using violence. It's main objective is to make its player comfortable and relaxed. At the same time, I think some people might be interested in an exploration-based game or a game based around court intrigue and such.

To conclude, what other games like this can you think of?
 
I apologize for such a sudden interjection, but recently, I have been thinking about something.

If we were to compare the amount of work put into various combat mechanics in the most popular tabletop RPG on the marker to that put into such things as non-combat resolutions, it would be safe to say that they typically put more emphasis on violent ways to resolve a situation, be that spell or sword or laser or anything such.

Naturally, I realize that tabletop games originate from wargames and such and that people typically fight combat to be more engaging than any alternatives. This is a common fact, and I am not going to criticize Dungeons & Dragons for going into dungeons to slay dragons.

The question that interests me personally is what alternatives there are and what they can be. For example, Golden Sky Stories, a rather niche game, discourages its players from using violence. It's main objective is to make its player comfortable and relaxed. At the same time, I think some people might be interested in an exploration-based game or a game based around court intrigue and such.

To conclude, what other games like this can you think of?

Golden Sky Stories' premise and approach sounds really interesting.

And I rather like the idea of a game about political intrigue and power struggles behind the scenes. The kind of thing where violence isn't necessarily unheard of but it happens so rarely or in such exceptional circumstances that its occurrence would be considered shocking.

It's actually something that could work in the context of a typical DnD party structure too. Imagine a game where a local ruler hires the party to secure support for a major proposal that is going to be put forward at a meeting of all the most important leaders in the kingdom. The policy has a wellspring of support from regions that will be advantaged by it, but others are more skeptical, and others still aren't sure if they should commit their very precious political time and support to something when they don't know if it will fail or not. So the players have to engage in a lot of deal-making and persuasion. And it lets the DM incorporate other adventures too: imagine a certain noble has a personal matter that they need resolved, and that helping this noble resolve the matter quietly would allow the players to ask for a very generous favour in return.
 
Do we? I think the most common use of pandering I've seen is related to media made for straight men by straight men?

Like, fan service is often called pandering?
Pandering means "thing I don't like" and up until recently waifu fanservice was included in that. Like any possible kind. It's still done now but sparingly, as we live in the Twilight Zone now and freeing the anime titties is a way to own the libs.

Now pandering is very commonly used to criticize elements of "diversity" like pro-black or pro-LGBT+ programming or characters for example, as these elements are being "forced" into media allegedly and thus are alien and should not be present.
 
I apologize for such a sudden interjection, but recently, I have been thinking about something.

If we were to compare the amount of work put into various combat mechanics in the most popular tabletop RPG on the marker to that put into such things as non-combat resolutions, it would be safe to say that they typically put more emphasis on violent ways to resolve a situation, be that spell or sword or laser or anything such.

Naturally, I realize that tabletop games originate from wargames and such and that people typically fight combat to be more engaging than any alternatives. This is a common fact, and I am not going to criticize Dungeons & Dragons for going into dungeons to slay dragons.

The question that interests me personally is what alternatives there are and what they can be. For example, Golden Sky Stories, a rather niche game, discourages its players from using violence. It's main objective is to make its player comfortable and relaxed. At the same time, I think some people might be interested in an exploration-based game or a game based around court intrigue and such.

To conclude, what other games like this can you think of?
You can do that even within D&D. At least in the older editions combat was a horribly inefficient way of gaining EXP for anyone except a Warrior. Priests and Paladins gained EXP for converting NPCs to their religion and for healing NPCs, Wizards gained exp for crafting magic items, learning new spells, and using magic to overcome obstacles outside of combat. Thieves gained for stealing, and bards for successfully influencing people. Everyone gained for finding or acquiring new magic items. The majority of your EXP came from spending money (however gained) on training. 1gp for 1xp. (Also peaceful resolution gives the same as combat does anyway)

Legend of the Five Rings is also good for a courtly intrigue game.

Edit: and for a specific d&d setting, Council of Wyrms, where all players were assumed to be feudal lords and additional proficiencies existed for things like motivating workers, estate management, stewardship, rhetoric, etc... and a formal dueling ruleset controlled most combat. Oh, and you were also playing as dragons doing all of this.
 
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You can do that even within D&D. At least in the older editions combat was a horribly inefficient way of gaining EXP for anyone except a Warrior. Priests and Paladins gained EXP for converting NPCs to their religion and for healing NPCs, Wizards gained exp for crafting magic items, learning new spells, and using magic to overcome obstacles outside of combat. Thieves gained for stealing, and bards for successfully influencing people. Everyone gained for finding or acquiring new magic items. The majority of your EXP came from spending money (however gained) on training. 1gp for 1xp. (Also peaceful resolution gives the same as combat does anyway)

Legend of the Five Rings is also good for a courtly intrigue game.
The thing is, does Dungeon and Dragons have a sub-system to support and model such events, and if it does, do you think it had the same amount of effort put into it? It is something you can do, but is it something you are encouraged to? I suppose both answers are yes since you receive positive stimuli for doing such actions, so that's good, but at the same time, the main aim of Dungeon and Dragons is more combat-related than I would prefer.

On the other hand, why exactly is Legend of the Five Rings is good for such kind of games? I genuinely don't know since I have never played or read about it.
 
The question that interests me personally is what alternatives there are and what they can be. For example, Golden Sky Stories, a rather niche game, discourages its players from using violence. It's main objective is to make its player comfortable and relaxed. At the same time, I think some people might be interested in an exploration-based game or a game based around court intrigue and such.

To conclude, what other games like this can you think of?

There's two kind of approaches to this, that I see?

In more narrative games, stuff like FATE, the distinction between combat and an argument doesn't really matter, rules wise. It's a contest of rolls either way, and your traits or skills can apply to each just as well. The distinction then only comes down to stuff like an opposed roll or a more direct roll.

"Social Combat" might be the general term for a system like that, although a lot of the crunchier tabletops I know of that have social combat still usually lean more towards combat. And there's also something to be said for how it turns social situations into metaphorical combat, or presents them in similar ways? (A good example of this might be powered by the apocalypse, or stuff based on it. It's all based on moves, and "kick some ass" is a move just like convincing people is. The nuts and bolts boil down to the same things and you might have special moves for either social or combat equally well.)

Another approach would be to have a unique social system that's built up as much as combat but not in the same way as it. I don't know of as many games that do that, but Monsterhearts seems like one, with it's strings? It's a decent example of a primarily social game. As far as I understand it (from reading the rules, not playing myself yet) actual violence would be kind of a failure state of the other rules, not something you build a character around as much.

So, if you look at the reference sheet here, it's kind of like the Powered by the apoc systems I mentioned above. Everything is broken down into moves. But look at the basic moves here, and how that sets the tone for the system? The very first one is turn someone on, then shutting someone down (in conversation) and right over there you have pulling on strings, which showcases the basic resource here - ties and leverage over people. There is one violent action, but using it requires giving them a string on you for most roll results, or suffering other negative consequences. At a very basic level this shapes the play towards social mechanics first.
 
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There's two kind of approaches to this, that I see?

In more narrative games, stuff like FATE, the distinction between combat and an argument doesn't really matter, rules wise. It's a contest of rolls either way, and your traits or skills can apply to each just as well. The distinction then only comes down to stuff like an opposed roll or a more direct roll.

"Social Combat" might be the general term for a system like that, although a lot of the crunchier tabletops I know of that have social combat still usually lean more towards combat. And there's also something to be said for how it turns social situations into metaphorical combat, or presents them in similar ways?

Another approach would be to have a unique social system that's built up as much as combat but not in the same way as it. I don't know of as many games that do that, but Monsterhearts seems like one, with it's strings? It's a decent example of a primarily social game. As far as I understand it (from reading the rules, not playing myself yet) actual violence would be kind of a failure state of the other rules, not something you build a character around as much.
It is rather unfortunate that social situations are represented through the prism of combat. I think that's mostly because tabletop games in general are rather focused on combat, so that might be bleeding into other areas.

On another note, while I did present social games as an example, there might be other directions in which non-combat-oriented games might fall through like detective investigations or exploration.
 
The thing is, does Dungeon and Dragons have a sub-system to support and model such events, and if it does, do you think it had the same amount of effort put into it? It is something you can do, but is it something you are encouraged to? I suppose both answers are yes since you receive positive stimuli for doing such actions, so that's good, but at the same time, the main aim of Dungeon and Dragons is more combat-related than I would prefer.

On the other hand, why exactly is Legend of the Five Rings is good for such kind of games? I genuinely don't know since I have never played or read about it.
Lo5r is a setting based loosely on feudal japan wherein you are members of noble clans competing for imperial favor. There are combat classes and you can run a samurai based game, but there are likewise social classes and they are where the real power is. The pen is indeed mightier than the sword. With a sword I kill you, but with the pen I ruin your entire family. In most games I've played in that setting, the martial classes were basically there only as yojimbo for the masters of the court.

Edit: also, see my additional edit on the previous post about Council of Wyrms. A d&d setting where you gain 0exp from combat.
 
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It is rather unfortunate that social situations are represented through the prism of combat. I think that's mostly because tabletop games in general are rather focused on combat, so that might be bleeding into other areas.

I think it comes down to a really basic part of the dice rules. You have Challenges, and in a social set up what's the simplest challenge to imagine? Changing someone's mind, basically. The first thing a lot of designers seem to look at is rules for making someone do something, or changing their opinion. So if you build a social character in exalted, they're manipulative, they can sway crowds, and so on. It comes down to lying or persuasion at it's most basic elements.

But there's a lot of assumptions baked into that kind of view. In my personal experience, a lot of how we handle friendships and relationships isn't convincing people to do things, it's coming up with the right things to say, or understanding people better, or overcoming your own fears to say something that matters. Which is a biased and slanted view in and of itself, but those are also things that are harder to model in rules, and a lot of people, if they do include that, seem to like leaving it up to pure roleplaying.

I think it would be interesting to see a system where the main flaw to overcome was self control, where you had to battle anxiety or self doubt to say things, sometimes, or avoid misspeaking with friends and hurting someone. Lots of games have "willpower" as a resource but they never seem to really represent what people use willpower for in reality with it?
 
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