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The Politics of Tabletop RPGs

From a game design perspective, stat adjustments can become an issue, because it turns certain combinations of species and class into must-haves (so you can get the highest possible main stat) or kneecapping yourself (by giving you a worse main stat than normal).

I think not having them would be fine, and would make any species/class option viable. Different species could still have a lot of uniqueness from special abilities, even if they didn't have stat adjustments. PF2E is an amazing demonstration of how they could work, because even if you ignore stat adjustments, each ancestry unlocks at least a dozen new feats unique to them.
 
Like, there still are ideal or less ideal Ancestries for different classes, of course. Orcs don't have too many specific Ancestry options if you're a spellcaster. Druids might be able to get something out of the beast feats, otherwise it's a bit barren.

But that's fine, honestly? It's how it goes. Different design spaces. Other than having slightly slim pickings for (Ancestry) Feats if you're just a pure Orc, everything else is pretty open.

And so on and so forth across the Ancestries.
 
There's just something fun about the possibility of playing this little giant instinct barbarian Sprite that can eventually gain the ability to shoot up to huge size.
 
The Laurent said:
Orcs don't have too many specific Ancestry options if you're a spellcaster.
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Actually, I think a some of the Orc ancestry feats work pretty well for a spellcaster. Casters tend to have less skills than martials, so the extra skills from Orc Lore, Hold Mark or Orc Warmask will benefit them plenty, and they can get a bonus to the skill tied to their spellcasting tradition from Orc Warmask. Anyone can benefit from the bonus to saves from Hold Mark or Orc Superstition or the ability to not drop at 0 hp from Orc Ferocity. And if they want to mix some weapon attacks with their spellcasting, the Orc Weapon Familiarity will get them proficiency in some martial weapons.

The general design philosophy for PF2E is that "number goes up" improvements always come from the base class chassis as you level up and feats instead add breadth and versatility. So it's not like any of the ancestries get a feat that just makes you better at spellcasting than everyone else. At most, they might get an extra cantrip, or scaly skin on part with light armor.
 
Amazing's pushing it a bit, I think. The idea's quite solid, but the actual ancestry feat lists they published have that classic Paizo problem where almost all of the presented options just aren't really worth taking. Tons of the sort of ability where you read it, go "oh that's neat" then genuinely forget you put it on your sheet to no serious consequence, you know? I remember going through the ancestry list a while back and genuinely couldn't come up with any compelling mechanical reason to play anything other than a human, halfling or flying species.
 
It's free stuff and keeps your ancestry relevant as more than just an rp thing past character level. *shrug* That's more than you get from D&D.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think the subsystem in and of itself is a good idea and an improvement over what D&D's got going on, something I can say about a lot of things in PF2e. I'm more lamenting how its potential impact is held back by the broader problem of Paizo being so terrified that any of its published options may be good that it doesn't allow them to be interesting, something I can also say about a lot of things in PF2e.
 
The Narrator said:
I disagree. In my experience, CHA is the dump stat unless a character specifically needs it. INT in 3E/4E/PF1/PF2 determines the number of skills that you get, and more skills means more versatility. The only thing that CHA does, if you don't have a class ability based on it, is add to social skills.

INT has become a dump stat for 5E because it no longer adds to skills. Along with STR, because everyone gets DEX to damage for free. PF2E very pointedly averts both of those (unless you're a Thief Rogue).
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Hmmm, should've elaborated it a bit more but in my eyes is that Cha and Int can both be dumpstats. With Cha providing very little if you just dabble in it and Int providing pretty decent stuff if you do. But CHA giving some pretty incredible in-combat benefits if you do have it as your secondary main stat: Intimidation, Feints, Innate spells(even if you shouldn't pick save spells for them), and a lot of CHA casters for archetyping uses CHA as the casting stats.

Int however, doesn't reward you for having it be a secondary focus as much due to it's primary action, Recall Knowledge, is split in to so many distinct skills(not to mention Religion and Nature being Wis only) that it requires a lot more opportunity cost to do so.
 
Saidoro said:
Amazing's pushing it a bit, I think. The idea's quite solid, but the actual ancestry feat lists they published have that classic Paizo problem where almost all of the presented options just aren't really worth taking. Tons of the sort of ability where you read it, go "oh that's neat" then genuinely forget you put it on your sheet to no serious consequence, you know? I remember going through the ancestry list a while back and genuinely couldn't come up with any compelling mechanical reason to play anything other than a human, halfling or flying species.
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I think that you're really underselling the ancestry feats here. Some are too esoteric or situational for my taste, but a lot of them are very useful. [Ancestry] Lore nets you two extra skills plus a Lore skill, and more skills is always good. [Ancestry] Weapon Familiarity is the best way to get full proficiency with an advanced weapon. Some of them let a non-caster have a cantrip. Nimble Elf gives you more movement speed and stacks with Fleet. Ancient Elf lets gives you an archetype at Level 1, which you normally can't have. A dwarf with Unburdened Iron is the only way to get your full speed in heavy armor. And that's all the very basic stuff. As you get into splat books, you get things like automatons that shoot laser beams from their eyes or transform into a cannon.
 
The Narrator said:
Actually, I think a some of the Orc ancestry feats work pretty well for a spellcaster. Casters tend to have less skills than martials, so the extra skills from Orc Lore, Hold Mark or Orc Warmask will benefit them plenty, and they can get a bonus to the skill tied to their spellcasting tradition from Orc Warmask. Anyone can benefit from the bonus to saves from Hold Mark or Orc Superstition or the ability to not drop at 0 hp from Orc Ferocity. And if they want to mix some weapon attacks with their spellcasting, the Orc Weapon Familiarity will get them proficiency in some martial weapons.

The general design philosophy for PF2E is that "number goes up" improvements always come from the base class chassis as you level up and feats instead add breadth and versatility. So it's not like any of the ancestries get a feat that just makes you better at spellcasting than everyone else. At most, they might get an extra cantrip, or scaly skin on part with light armor.
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Though to note, Orc Warmask is officially Legacy content. They probably just didn't port it for space purposes, but it should be remembered.
 
Despite Tolkien's original Mordor orcs being industrial, this idea seems to have caught on no where other than some parts of WOW. Tribal orcs really became common place. Probably because DND derived rpgs are very Wild West or Conan-esque.


In the other direction a Nonsense Tolkienism I've noted in Dnd and Pathfinder, almost all were creatures are evil except for werebears which are good, this clearly just because of Beorn. Not really political but I really wanted to point it out.
 
The Laurent said:
Though to note, Orc Warmask is officially Legacy content. They probably just didn't port it for space purposes, but it should be remembered.
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IIRC, legacy stuff is supposed to be valid by default unless the Remaster specifically replaces it. Though I do imagine that many tables just ban all legacy stuff for simplicity, so you still have a point.
 
Natireck said:
IIRC, legacy stuff is supposed to be valid by default unless the Remaster specifically replaces it. Though I do imagine that many tables just ban all legacy stuff for simplicity, so you still have a point.
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The organized play rules allow you to use any Legacy content that hasn't been directly replaced with a new version, so I don't expect many tables to ban it. A lot of stuff is "Legacy" just because it was originally from a splatbook that there's no reason to rewrite.



Mosshadow95 said:
In the other direction a Nonsense Tolkienism I've noted in Dnd and Pathfinder, almost all were creatures are evil except for werebears which are good, this clearly just because of Beorn. Not really political but I really wanted to point it out.
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Yeah, D&D is full of stuff that was just shamelessly copied straight from Tolkien.
 
Mosshadow95 said:
Going back to RPGs, what are people's opinions on how to portray different races/species in stat adjustments and mechanics.
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Different species should be mechanically different since IRL they do have different capabilities, but I think mental bonuses or penalties are a bad pick and stat adjustments in general are about the least interesting way you can do it. Let me play a sapient dinosaur who has worse endurance than a human and can't swim worth a damn but has natural weapons, ultraviolet vision, and excellent mimicry skills.
 
Mosshadow95 said:
Going back to RPGs, what are people's opinions on how to portray different races/species in stat adjustments and mechanics.
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Other folks have said the same, but I like it when there are some mechanical effects for physiological differences in races/species/whatever, and given the choice I'd just say leave any mental stats untouched.

I really dislike games where it's a purely cosmetic choice, it might just be due to how I play, but I enjoy letting mechanics drive a good deal of the narrative and I get to react to the fallout of whatever happened. If there isn't some mechanical effect for a decision - whether it's race, or equipment, or anything really - it's hard for me to really feel like it's a part of my character, if that makes sense.
 
Thinking about this more, I think that FATE's aspect system covers this really well: You can have each species have a certain number of aspects and invoke and compel them as you please. This is the approach a friend used for his game, and when I was creating my maned wolf character I chose the following:
Maned wolves have really long legs.

Permissions: Can reach up higher without jumping. Can see over tall grass.

Suggested Invoke: Run faster, be more intimidating, and jump higher.

Suggested Compel: Be easier to spot and easier to shoot.
Like all their kind, Sunset has excellent hearing, night vision, and sense of smell. They are, however, red-green colorblind.

Permissions: Track. Sense the unperceivable.

Suggested Invokes: Be /really/ good at sensing the unperceivable.

Suggested Compels: Suffer from sensory overload or distractions.
Maned wolves don't have hands. They need to wear harnesses with hands and a set of surface electrodes in order to manipulate objects.

Permissions: Can still walk if you lose a leg. Can grab onto spiky, hot, or cold things and not suffer damage.

Suggested Invoke: Better manipulate objects or use brute strength. Good balance.

Suggested Compel: That last attack damaged a delicate mechanism.
You can see right away that despite FATE being a rules-light system, I can get way more granular and detailed when representing a species than I can using d20's usual approach. EDIT: Also the fact that every advantage gives you a disadvantage as well helps with balance.
 
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Mosshadow95 said:
In the other direction a Nonsense Tolkienism I've noted in Dnd and Pathfinder, almost all were creatures are evil except for werebears which are good, this clearly just because of Beorn. Not really political but I really wanted to point it out.
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Let's actually list them out:
Werewolf; Chaotic Evil
Wererat; Lawful Evil
Werecat; Chaotic Good
The Big Cats; mix of Lawful Neutral, Neutral , and Lawful Evil.
Werebadger; Chaotic Good
Werebear; Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Chaotic Good depending on Edition.
Wereboar; Neutral in every Edition but 5th where it's Neutral Evil.
Werebison; Neutral Good
Weredog; Lawful Good
Werefox; Chaotic Evil
Werehyena; Neutral Evil
Weresnake; Any in 5th Ed and Chaotic Evil before that.
Werespider; Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil
Wereweasel; Chaotic Evil
Seawolves; Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil
Werecrocodile; Neutral Evil
Wereshark; Neutral Evil
Weredolphin; Neutral Good
Wereseal; Chaotic Neutral
Swanmay???, they apparently count?; Any, with a preference towards Good.
Werebat; Neutral Evil
Wereraven; Lawful Good or Neutral Good, depending on Edition.
Wereowl, Neutral Good
 
In what universe are dolphins (nature's criminals) Neutral Good, while seals (god's finest children) are Chaotic Neutral and the beloved rat (smol boys) are Lawful Evil?

This just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
I love dolphins, they're adorable and fascinating creatures.

They're monstrous from a sapient human POV but who cares about that? They're not human, or (probably) sapient.
 
I think you have to take into account that there's usually some flavor of wizard and or dark magic user behind most of those monsters, to be fair. A rat is a fairly decent creature, but a wizard who turned themselves into a Giant Rat Monster to Cause Problems probably was not a decent creature even before their transformation.

Then the evil vibes propagate because it's a curse.
 
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