The Leila Hann Let's Watch Spoiler Thread: Seriously, Stop Spoiling Stuff

[Bernkastel]

Something I've felt in the past is that Leila doesn't gel well with anime tonal shifts. The wrench gag is an example of this. I feel that Leila is inclined to go "either this setting is one where that kind of violence matters all the time or not. Pick one" and that her response to it came from her feeling that FMA had already picked "it does matter".

Also, it surely doesn't help that, I think, she usually finds "now we're doing a bit with, say, tsundere comedy violence" to be unfunny wastes of time.

 

[GuestLurker]

I... don't think the term puritan means what you think it means

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Not in the religious sense, but in how close she wants to see things cleave to her ideology and how quickly she can condemn things she finds wanting from first impressions alone with an at times spiteful zeal.

This is the main reason why I'm hesistant to commision The Shield, despite how much I think SV needs to experience it. She might not catch that the last two minutes of the pilot (Vic Mackey's murder of his fellow cop Terry Crowley, just because Terry was investigating Vic's criminality on the station captain's orders) is a signal to normies that the Strike Team are 100% Bad Cops, no matter how much they (normies) might think that the suspect in the episode's main storyline deserved what was done to him.

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Yes, but follow up episodes where the cops that are supposed to be the good ones keep letting him and his group do what they want and how some episodes treat them as a necessary evil, with the cops that are supposed to be good being better at their jobs when they act like Vic's group and treating the gangs as interchangeable baddies without little thought given to why outside of acting like the near always minority gangs are inherently violent.

The show tries for something, but the staples of the genre and likely influence from actual cops that cop dramas basically always have on hand to advise makes most cops the good guys no matter the circumstances are.

For an example, look at how the police are treated in the original Cowboy Bebop and the ones in the Netflix version, where the issues go from systemic ones where the only way to stay clean is to leave to most cops are good and bad ones are stopped almost right away by the good ones.

Not...exactly? But I'm not interested in starting this debate again.

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How they are intended to be seen when you have the entire series in mind and how the show treats them in the episodes Leila saw aren't necessarily the same thing.

Even if it were true (and that's a big if), five seasons is a long time to wait for a show to "get good."

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Liking Jojo's often isn't always about being a good show, but because of the manga's role in the medium and the enjoyment of the spectacle and interaction with others that results from it it is often considered a great show. Good and Great are often conflated, but they are not always the same. "Great" works that really push the medium on multiple levels can do far worse than Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and promote nothing good for anyone but the technical capabilities of things. For example a well made piece of racist propaganda can be experienced for how it influences things, and Jojo's is nowhere near as damaging to the lives of people as the likes of Birth of a Nation, which was such a well made film that pioneered many vital parts of how movies are made today even though is is filled with lies and so much hate generating that it made the second KKK almost entirely on its own.

I often see Jojo's as worth watching from at least a more cultural perspective to understand the broader conventions of things that came after than to let it decide things about yourself. Though if you do learn something about yourself from how the people in it dress that's no one's problem. The massive variety in what it does from part to part and even at times from episode to episode make it easy to find a part you like to get interested in defending it though because by throwing everything at a wall eventually most people will find something they enjoy.

Leila often seems to not get or possibly deliberately not get anime conventions. For example she interpreted Yang as being a violent sociopath based on the initial Yellow trailer and didn't stop. In practice though Yang is kinda coded as a "hot tempered tsundere" akin to Winry throwing wrenches or Akane swinging hammers. But this is complicated further by the narrative toying with Yang having genuine temper issues... the tournament fight with Mercury is predicated on the idea that Yang hitting someone while they're down is genuinely believable to other characters after all.

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This is a good example of the first impressions bit people keep saying there is no evidence of, though even the people that knew Yang saw it as very unlike her, but the public that didn't were the ones that needed to be tricked into thinking how she acts towards those who attack her is how she would act towards those she beat, with Blake being the only one to question Yang because of her previous relationship being abusive and manipulative and making it hard for her to trust her own impressions of people at times.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think it's telling that the "Leila gets fixated on her initial impression and never recognizes changes in the story!" crowd never actually provide a single piece of compelling evidence. It's always just vague complaints that she's biased or hyperbolic or whatever. Which frankly just tells me that it's just people salty that she's trashing something they like.

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What would a compelling argument look like? How effortposty would it need to be? Does Leila often review works you're familiar with, such that you'd be in a good position to present or fully parse a compelling argument along these lines yourself?

Because if someone criticizes a work you're familiar with on grounds you don't think are well rooted in the overall character of the work, but you don't feel like doing an exhaustive analysis of, say, all of Seasons One through Three to prove them wrong... What would that look like? Remember, doing detailed analysis of entire seasons of a work of fiction is a task on the same general scale for the counter-critic as it is for the critic... and there's a reason Leila generally gets paid to do this.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

What would a compelling argument look like? How effortposty would it need to be? Does Leila often review works you're familiar with, such that you'd be in a good position to present or fully parse a compelling argument along these lines yourself?

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I don't know man, any evidence at all would be nice.

 

[LordYam]

I... don't think the term puritan means what you think it means

I also have a hard time seeing where exactly Leila got the wrong impression of ExoSquad such that she totally would have enjoyed it were it not for that one compounding misunderstanding
I've looked on my own time, the plot does indeed play out as she described it in review

And before anyone accuses me of being unable to handle moral complexity again, Phaeton and his Neos are not morally complex, they are treated as black and white a villain as it gets, which is the entire issue though hardly surprising

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Except that not only is it flat out stated that the Neos do have a point

I don't know man, any evidence at all would be nice.

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We do provide evidence. You just tend to dismiss it.

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

Yes, but follow up episodes where the cops that are supposed to be the good ones keep letting him and his group do what they want and how some episodes treat them as a necessary evil, with the cops that are supposed to be good being better at their jobs when they act like Vic's group and treating the gangs as interchangeable baddies without little thought given to why outside of acting like the near always minority gangs are inherently violent.

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Except the whole Koreatown subplot is about how the cops who deal with an immigrant community only achieve actual success by stopping to understand their culture and concerns. That was a huge step in the 2000s, right alongside "these cops are just criminals who wear badges."

Granting that the Armenian (most notable iirc) gang is treated as "foreign" rather than "white," there's still a prominent "white" gang in the series from the very first episode: the Strike Team.

The show tries for something, but the staples of the genre and likely influence from actual cops that cop dramas basically always have on hand to advise makes most cops the good guys no matter the circumstances are.

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The series was directly based on the Rampart scandal, which most of SV is likely too young to remember. I don't even remember anything contemporary about it. The primary reason why the cop characters aren't even worse is because the LAPD threatened legal action.

 

[LordYam]

I've said this before but a large part of the problem with police is the problem with society. Too many people either don't care or WANT racist thugs.

1.) How one feels about Exosquad is your perogative (I've not seen any episodes) but from what I have read on the wiki it DOES make clear that the neosapiens have a point, and we do see actual principled revolutionaries later on (and I also believe the racist cop is forced to confront his bigotry and grow out of it).

2.) The RWBY stuff is a perfect example. Early RWBY was deeply flawed and there are people on this very forum who are overly defensive when you point out that things like the racism were badly handled (though that was more out of naiveté rather than malice). But as pointed out Yang wasn't a sociopath; she was following the tsundre stereotype.

Leila is a bit like Greg Bishansky (a major Gargoyles fanboy). They're both intelligent but they both tend to dig in about things they like or dislike (if they like a work they'll praise it endlessly whereas if they don't like a work they won't give any quarter at all or even TRY to understand counterarguments against it) and are VERY reluctant to concede that they might be wrong/get spiteful when confronted on this (GregXB got downright nasty if someone were to say point out that seasons 3 and 4 of Korra were better than Season 2, or so much as utter a peep against Greg Weisman).

If they decide they don't like a work anymore (Leila was once a Worm fan but turned against it later) they tend to REALLY go all in on hating it (GregXB did that with Korra) regardless of how fair it is (Wildbow's work definitely has problems but it's hardly the abomination it's most rabid critics think it is)

 

[firefossil]

For an example, look at how the police are treated in the original Cowboy Bebop and the ones in the Netflix version, where the issues go from systemic ones where the only way to stay clean is to leave to most cops are good and bad ones are stopped almost right away by the good ones.

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Speaking as someone who has only watched the Netflix version I have no idea how anyone who actually watched it could possibly end up with that as a takeaway. The cops either fail to show up at all thus forcing the protagonists to do their job for them, or show up just in time to casually execute unarmed criminals in cold blood so they don't have to pay the protagonists for doing their job for them. The only bad cop to get stopped is stopped by the ex-cop protagonist, whereupon the sole friendly cop (whose awkwardly married to the protagonist's ex-wife after the protagonist was sent to jail for the bad cop's actions) can only shrug and say the protagonist is still totally fucked legally.

 

[Valette.Serafina]

Leila is a bit like Greg Bishansky (a major Gargoyles fanboy). They're both intelligent but they both tend to dig in about things they like or dislike (if they like a work they'll praise it endlessly whereas if they don't like a work they won't give any quarter at all or even TRY to understand counterarguments against it) and are VERY reluctant to concede that they might be wrong/get spiteful when confronted on this (GregXB got downright nasty if someone were to say point out that seasons 3 and 4 of Korra were better than Season 2, or so much as utter a peep against Greg Weisman).

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When you say things that are obviously not true, it undercuts your entire argument. It makes it look like you haven't actually read what you're criticizing.

Frankly, it seems to me that you're not talking about Leila Hann, you're talking about yourself.

 

[Bernkastel]

My contribution to this is simply going to be that "it's the tsundere character type" as a defense of accusations of psychopathy is not much of a defence in itself. It's been a common thing for ages to encounter people who dislike tsundere characters or even the archetype as a whole because they come off as horrible people/psychopathic. Plus, it's also been a thing since Asuka for a tsunderes character to be intentionally unhealthy people. So, it's hardly like being a tsundere negates a character being viewed a certain way in itself. That's just something I wanted to say because I feel like I've encountered "tsunderes are often psychos" enough that it's a bit amusing to see tsundere being used as a defense against the idea of a character being psychopathic.

As for Leila and tsunderes, like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure she dislikes/doesn't care at all for that character type. So, I doubt that Leila would view "she's a tsundere" as anything but a change in why what she sees as bad writing exists. She'd just dislike it for different reasons, I think.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@LordYam , if you're going to criticize a critic, focus on what they said, not a long tangential complaint about an entirely different person that the first person reminds you of.

You've pointed out the thing about Yang in RWBY, so your obvious moves are either to expand on that with supporting evidence, or to pick another good example from the relevant body of (critical) work.

My contribution to this is simply going to be that "it's the tsundere character type" as a defense of accusations of psychopathy is not much of a defence in itself. It's been a common thing for ages to encounter people who dislike tsundere characters or even the archetype as a whole because they come off as horrible people/psychopathic. Plus, it's also been a thing since Asuka for a tsunderes character to be intentionally unhealthy people. So, it's hardly like being a tsundere negates a character being viewed a certain way in itself.

As for Leila and tsunderes, like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure she dislikes/doesn't care at all for that character type. So, I doubt that Leila would view "she's a tsundere" as anything but a change in why what she sees as bad writing exists. She'd just dislike it for different reasons, I think.

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Yeah, but I can see how it leads to a problem when one reviews work within a genre while consistently ignoring genre conventions. Not just criticizing them, mind, but not engaging with them.

If one says "ah, upon reflection, Yang is a classic tsundere character, which I find unrealistic and unpleasant because _____," then that's a good starting point.

If one says "what is this tsundere of which you speak, Yang is clearly a violent bloodlusting psycho because of the 'tsun' scenes, and I will disregard any characterization to the contrary from here out," then:

1) One is not reviewing the work accurately because things that are in the work are being ignored.
2) One is missing the opportunity to engage with overall criticism of the genre- too busy complaining about the tree in front of oneself to observe that there is an underlying problem with the forest.
3) One is likely to consistently misinterpret other scenes the character is involved in, because if you don't have the whole picture of what Character A does and why, then Character B's actions are likely to be misunderstood.

It's like reviewing a Batman comic and then throwing it across the room in disgust when Commissioner Gordon doesn't arrest Batman on suspicion of vandalism for jumping into the warehouse through a skylight to rescue the hostages. Arguably that's a valid reality-informed stance, but if that's the way you play your reviews, then you're going to have a lot less fun than you could, and you're not going to be able to really... get... the pieces of art you're trying to criticize.

 

[LordYam]

During the Galactic Heroes sections posters made arguments about how things that Leila dismissed as plotholes or bad writing (things like Iserlohn) actually did make some degree of sense and weren't that unreasonable. She still dismissed them out of hand. That's a an example of the "set in your ways never admit you might be wrong" mindset Leila tends to have.

 

[Bernkastel]

@Simon_Jester My quick answer would be that there's a reason why the title of this thread is let's watch spoilers, rather than even something like opinionated reviews. My understanding is that she types up her stuff as she reacts to material and that some of the parts of episodes she has put up had no alterations to account for the rest of the episode. The analysis side of what Leila does comes from her own tendencies as a viewer and some desire to give a creator the benefit of the doubt. Why I personally don't mind her not being more objective is that she's aiming to be more like an analytical written version of a media reaction channel and, I think, has always been that. She's done reactions that are just get being bored/disengaged and I feel like the reason there's not been that much anger about those is because she did her thing. She reacted to the selected media and her reaction happened to boredom/apathy.

 

[The Narrator]

Speaking as someone who has only watched the Netflix version I have no idea how anyone who actually watched it could possibly end up with that as a takeaway. The cops either fail to show up at all thus forcing the protagonists to do their job for them, or show up just in time to casually execute unarmed criminals in cold blood so they don't have to pay the protagonists for doing their job for them. The only bad cop to get stopped is stopped by the ex-cop protagonist, whereupon the sole friendly cop (whose awkwardly married to the protagonist's ex-wife after the protagonist was sent to jail for the bad cop's actions) can only shrug and say the protagonist is still totally fucked legally.

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Yeah, having seen both versions, I'm not sure that there's much meaningful difference between how the police are portrayed in the two. If anything, the cops in the Netflix version might be worse. I don't recall the cops in the anime ever just straight killing a suspect to get out of having to pay the bounty, although they did screw the protagonists out of their payday in other ways (like declaring that an AI didn't qualify). A lot of the time the cops in the anime were ineffectual (thus making the protagonists necessary), corrupt (because that's a staple of the noir genre that Cowboy Bebop draws inspiration from), or just plain irrelevant to the story if they even show up at all. And that seems pretty much the same in the Netflix series, from what I recall.

 

[Simon_Jester]

During the Galactic Heroes sections posters made arguments about how things that Leila dismissed as plotholes or bad writing (things like Iserlohn) actually did make some degree of sense and weren't that unreasonable. She still dismissed them out of hand. That's a an example of the "set in your ways never admit you might be wrong" mindset Leila tends to have.

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Could you please dig a bit into the specifics, or link, or something?

Vague claims with no sourcing are super hard to falsify, so you're putting a lot of burden of proof, a disproportionate amount, on those who disagree with you.

@Simon_Jester My quick answer would be that there's a reason why the title of this thread is let's watch spoilers, rather than even something like opinionated reviews. My understanding is that she types up her stuff as she reacts to material and that some of the parts of episodes she has put up had no alterations to account for the rest of the episode. The analysis side of what Leila does comes from her own tendencies as a viewer and some desire to give a creator the benefit of the doubt. Why I personally don't mind her not being more objective is that she's aiming to be more like an analytical written version of a media reaction channel and, I think, has always been that. She's done reactions that are just get being bored/disengaged and I feel like the reason there's not been that much anger about those is because she did her thing. She reacted to the selected media and her reaction happened to boredom/apathy.

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Well, that's fair, it's just that when you're getting mad at a work because of its genre conventions, it's good to be able to say "I have a problem with the genre conventions" and not just repeatedly say "I have a problem with this character and this character and this character and this character."

 

[LordYam]

Okay. Here are some of the posts in question.

Well, that's a miss I guess. I'll try to defend this episode a bit.

I think the Empire's incompetence is a good way of showing that it can be just as inefficient as the Alliance, and even more so, thereby further avoiding the "trains running on time" myth you mentioned. I'm no history buff, but from what I know errors similar to those made by Iserlohn's admirals weren't uncommon in fascist militaries. Stockhausen (Tweedledee) insisting to see the Rosen Ritters in person is stupid, but it's the kind of thing that an arrogant aristocratic officer who is confident in his fortress' defenses would demand. He could also be wary of their communications being intercepted by the enemy (after all, we've seen how deadly and convenient electronic warfare can be in this setting). Besides, they're already next to the control room when security issues start appearing, and by that point he's too impatient to consider them. Similarly, the entire station surrendering seems to me like the consequence of an authoritarian command structure, where the loss or capture of the supreme commander isn't planend for due to overconfidence and crippling when it happens. Same thing with the Admiral's headquarters controlling most of the station and the Thor Hammer.

As for the Rosen Ritter being imperfect infiltrators, well, Von Schönkopf and his pals' experience of Imperial life might be limited, but it's still the best the Alliance has. (Alliance and Imperial infiltrators appear very uncommon in LoGH due to the difficulty of travel between the two nations, with only Fezzan having an elaborate spy network). And they definitely needed to take Stockhausen hostage in order to seize the station intact, otherwise he could've tried to escape while the zealous security officers would fight the infiltrators, which easily could've resulted in the control room being destroyed.

Regarding the 13th Fleet's jamming abilities, my best guess is that they were able to outmaneuver the garrison fleet and place themselves in a way that allowed them to cut off the enemy comms. The garrison probably noticed that they were cut off from Iserlohn, but Seeckt (Tweedledum) continued the search partly because he's an overconfident idiot who hates Stockhausen, and partly because losing comms in battle seems common in this setting. I'll concede that the way jamming works is very vague and plot-dependant though (I have some headcanons to justify it, but most of the time it really just seems to happen karmically to the commander who's doomed to lose the battle).

Then there's Seeckt's charge at Iserlohn, which I think is a really powerful scene that embodies one of the series' themes : egocentric leaders sacrificing millions of people in order to further their goals, whether it's Seeckt's bullshit "warrior's honor" philosophy, Reinhard's megalomaniacal conquest of the stars, or so, so many others I can't talk about yet. In that precise case, it's a much-needed rebuttal of the trope where fanatical soldiers of an Imperial power die to the last man in a futile assault, which is sometimes portrayed in an uncomfortably glorified way. It's a refreshing message for a mil sci-fi work and an anime, and I think it's one of the points where LoGH truly shows how superior it is as a war story compared to, say, Starship Troopers (the book) or GATE.

...okay, that was more than "a bit".

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"Legend of the Galactic Heroes: a better war story than GATE."

Glowing praise there.


I might agree with your reading if it was just the Imperials being that incompetent in this two-parter. Thing is, the Alliance really wasn't any better. Their stupidity just didn't hurt them the way the imperials' did because Wen-Li was there to give them his metaphysical genius bonus.

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Which leads into another point. In that show she keeps saying Yang's unrealistically smart and given praise he doesn't deserve (El Facil). In the show itself if you actually look at those incidents it's very possible to argue that

a.) At El Facil what they really needed was someone to keep a calm head on their shoulders. Yang just happened to be that while everyone else was running around like a headless chicken

b.) Yang's successes were in large part due to luck as much as his intelligence. At El Facil his cowardly superior fled, and Yang used his escaping fleet as a distraction to get everyone out while the Empire went to town on the deserters. Had that not happened they'd have been screwed. Iserlohn likewise only succeeds because the two admirals are incompetent dunderheads (And in the case of Seecht a coward who surrenders when his life is threatened). Hell even something like taking Oberstein's advice could have derailed everything. So even in story it's more of a "holy shit we got lucky."

Those are all entirely fair counterarguments to Leila's criticisms, but she never really addresses them.

 

[Bernkastel]

@Simon_Jester True, though I don't think that Leila cares enough about that to frame it that way. I also think that she does genuinely" have a problem with this character and this character and....". She's got a character she dislikes and is, well, disliking them. The reasons she dislikes them might be tied to not accepting genre conventions, but she's reacting to works from specific genres usually because we've asked her to, not because she cares at all about those genres or has necessarily put much though into them beyond "this genre has X? Well' that's stupid".

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Simon_Jester True, though I don't think that Leila cares enough about that to frame it that way. I also think that she does genuinely" have a problem with this character and this character and....". She's got a character she dislikes and is, well, disliking them. The reasons she dislikes them might be tied to not accepting genre conventions, but she's reacting to works from specific genres usually because we've asked her to, not because she cares at all about those genres or has necessarily put much though into them beyond "this genre has X? Well' that's stupid".

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That's fair, and I'm at this point not so much specifically criticizing Leila's criticism as saying "it's probably a good idea to learn to recognize genre conventions, so that you at least know the name of the thing that is repeatedly pissing you off."

If people keep leaving out a thing that you step on and bonk your head hurts, it is a good idea to learn the name of the thing you keep stepping on, if only so you can yell "DAMMIT STOP LEAVING THE RAKE OUT!"

Or, in her case, imposing a 7.5% surcharge for shows with a tsundere main character or something.

 

[Bernkastel]

@Simon_Jester I do feel that she's needed to work on how she handles content she just doesn't care for for a while, though I don't think that's going to happen. It's something I think we (the readers here who commission stuff) have to accept and keep in mind in regards to what we commission. Some past commissions were clear "This won't have much to its reaction" choices. I'm sure we'll have a few more of those, if simply because we can't read Leila's mind and I don't think she'll be changing her approach.

 

[firefossil]

I remember an essay by Film Critic Hulk which argued that movies are an irrational stimulation of the senses. If you are nitpicking the plot, it means you failed to engage with the characters, or get enraptured by the aesthetics, or whatnot. Most narratives just don't hold up to scrutiny and the more you look at them the more holes you will find.

If you read Lord of the Rings and your big takeaway is "Why didn't they just ride an Eagle to Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom? Why didn't they even discuss the idea given that Gandalf arrived at the meeting by Eagle and they're all spitballing ideas?" you didn't engage with the work well. Consequentially its probably more interesting to look into why you didn't engage with it, rather than the product of it. Leila's moment by moment high intensity approach to critiques seem to lend themselves to that sort of nitpicking.

That said a lot of people seem determined to ignore that Leila is a blind watcher and thus does not have 8 seasons of content, expanded universe materials, or clarifying forum discussions with other fans, and just expect Leila to engage with the character with the same level of informedness as the audience when the whole point of a blind watch is that she does not.

Overall I feel like they're at best when they're discussing thematics. Like her point about the Taurnado reflecting the character-driven flaws in the leadership approachs of both Horse and Wammawink is something that feels obvious in retrospect, but didn't occur to me even a little at the time. One of the great things about media is that they can be subjective and there can be multiple valid interpretations... Leila is often willing to entertain such at least at first. Its not like "is LOGH fash?" isn't a subject of contention even among people who've watched it in full.

 

[Leila Hann]

Please don't tag me in this thread.

 

[Bernkastel]

That said a lot of people seem determined to ignore that Leila is a blind watcher and thus does not have 8 seasons of content, expanded universe materials, or clarifying forum discussions with other fans, and just expect Leila to engage with the character with the same level of informedness as the audience when the whole point of a blind watch is that she does not.

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On a related note, I think there's the effect of going into a work because you're interested in a genre, were hyped up by something or someone or just had something occur that made you want to give a show a watch to consider. Usually, Leila doesn't come into the stuff commissioned with any of that sort of sentiment. I wouldn't be surprised if even casual fans of some of the stuff she watched have more of that non source material engagement or time put thinking about it beyond during watch time than her. The reason is, simply, she isn't getting a commission to become a fan. So unless the show inspires that much interest in her, she'll do what's asked of her and that's it. That's reasonable. I'm just pointing out that there's a level of investment, searching for info, chatting with other people watching it and even low level headcannoning that can go on even at a casual level that Leila isn't going to do because, well, why on earth would she?

 

[SoothingCoffee]

Bit late on the discussion, but is... Yang from RWBY actually a tsundere archetype? This is honestly the first time I hear her being described that way, and I don't think she's ever pulled any antic that fits the 'tsundere' archetype. Just a little confused is all.

 

[Bernkastel]

For my part, I was responding to the idea of "character in tsundere, which means it's wrong to set her as X" in the broad sense. I don't feel like I know RWBY well enough to define any character by any of the -dere types of in general. I've seen enough fan material that I'd feel odd if she was given a character type that flat out goes against what little I know, but that's it.

 

[all fictions]

Bit late on the discussion, but is... Yang from RWBY actually a tsundere archetype? This is honestly the first time I hear her being described that way, and I don't think she's ever pulled any antic that fits the 'tsundere' archetype. Just a little confused is all.

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Yeah, if anything, Weiss would be the actual tsundere, while Yang is closer to hot blooded tomboy than anything.