Hopefully, we can agree to get the synergies from an expedition to the southern forest, anardil doing his thing in the forest, a learning mission to accompany the military expedition, and palantir. We'd lose Anardil's PA bonus on finding apprentices temporarily, but I think it's worth it in this case.
The Kings of Men: Lord of the Rings/Warhammer Fantasy CK II Quest
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
One thing to keep in mind about magic is that only Warhammer style sorcerers and priests touch the Warp when casting or draw power from the undivided energies there. The Winds of Magic don't exist in the warp, they're formed by the reaction/interaction between the 'substance' of the warp and the material world, which creates the winds. That makes them comprensible by human minds.
Warhammer wizards purely use the magic that's present in the material world already in the form of the Winds that blow from the ruptured warp gates to the Great Vortex. They don't touch the warp or draw on the energies directly from there any more than a regular human does. That's unless they miscast and accidentally draw on the Winds so strongly that something goes terribly wrong.
You could compare the difference to collecting solar power (wizards) to opening a tiny portal to the sun and directly extracting energy from it (priests). The portal though, is very tiny, so less energy can be extracted than via the solar panels.
The other difference is that wizards cast their own spells, shaping the magical energy based on their comprehension of what they're doing. It's an art and a science. Priests rely on their patrons to shape their magic for them, so don't know what's happening or how what they do works. They pray for a miracle and get it after opening their souls to their patrons for them to act through. Sorcerers do the same as priests, but they also channel the Winds of Magic through themselves at the same time, which their patron can then manipulate with their own power.
It's worth noting that Wizards don't have to learn to only ever have one mode of thought to be safe. They have to learn how to only have one mode of thought when channeling the Winds of Magic. Once they've learned how to do that the rest of the time they can think however they like. The issue is that spell casting moulds your mind and soul into the shape of what you're casting, so over time a spellcasting human comes to resemble an archetype of their Lore of Magic. You can be a safe wizard without being an archetype though, and nearly all wizards start off like that when they finish training. It's only elder wizards and the prodigies who are. Young wizards can be relatively normal if you have the right infrastructure and training.
There's also no real difference between the sorcerer of a chaos God and the sorcerer of a more friendly God. The distinction of whether a God is chaotic or not is at least partially political and due to power level, there isn't really an inherent distinguishing feature beyond their character.
On the subject of 'corrupted' Truthsayers, they aren't necessarily any metaphysically different to normal Truthsayers. Different priests of the same God can hate each other quite happily, even if they embrace similar aspects of that God. Warp gods aren't unitary or consistent entities. Being an evil bastard doesn't disqualify you from being a priest of a god of humanity, as most of the gods have pretty negative aspects to them as well. There's nothing false about a Truthsayer that's a nasty piece of work. They're just as much legitimate priests of their god as Truthsayers that we would disapprove of less. Just ask the Witchhunters of Sigmarr, and how they compare to his mendicant orders. A priest basically gets some combination of the God they and their culture expects. What's most important is that the priest/sorcerer has faith that their God would help them do whatever they're seeking assistance with.
On the subject of elven magical theory, that would teach our people how to cast spells. It wouldn't help deal with the problems that humans have with learning a mindset to only channel a single Wind of Magic or the infrastructure to create the mono-wind environments almost always required to do so, as elves don't have the problems that humans do.
The reason the elven book would be so useful is that it probably contains samples of their magical language (based on the Old Ones') knowledge of which is necessary for casting safe and controlled spells. Spell casting is the second step required for humans to safely use magic.
Of course, Nolander probably doesn't know any of this, and even the Sidhe may not in detail. They will probably have never have met a human wizard, and certainly not one that wasn't a prodigy that didn't require training to control their channeling of the winds to prevent being corrupted.
Warhammer wizards purely use the magic that's present in the material world already in the form of the Winds that blow from the ruptured warp gates to the Great Vortex. They don't touch the warp or draw on the energies directly from there any more than a regular human does. That's unless they miscast and accidentally draw on the Winds so strongly that something goes terribly wrong.
You could compare the difference to collecting solar power (wizards) to opening a tiny portal to the sun and directly extracting energy from it (priests). The portal though, is very tiny, so less energy can be extracted than via the solar panels.
The other difference is that wizards cast their own spells, shaping the magical energy based on their comprehension of what they're doing. It's an art and a science. Priests rely on their patrons to shape their magic for them, so don't know what's happening or how what they do works. They pray for a miracle and get it after opening their souls to their patrons for them to act through. Sorcerers do the same as priests, but they also channel the Winds of Magic through themselves at the same time, which their patron can then manipulate with their own power.
It's worth noting that Wizards don't have to learn to only ever have one mode of thought to be safe. They have to learn how to only have one mode of thought when channeling the Winds of Magic. Once they've learned how to do that the rest of the time they can think however they like. The issue is that spell casting moulds your mind and soul into the shape of what you're casting, so over time a spellcasting human comes to resemble an archetype of their Lore of Magic. You can be a safe wizard without being an archetype though, and nearly all wizards start off like that when they finish training. It's only elder wizards and the prodigies who are. Young wizards can be relatively normal if you have the right infrastructure and training.
There's also no real difference between the sorcerer of a chaos God and the sorcerer of a more friendly God. The distinction of whether a God is chaotic or not is at least partially political and due to power level, there isn't really an inherent distinguishing feature beyond their character.
On the subject of 'corrupted' Truthsayers, they aren't necessarily any metaphysically different to normal Truthsayers. Different priests of the same God can hate each other quite happily, even if they embrace similar aspects of that God. Warp gods aren't unitary or consistent entities. Being an evil bastard doesn't disqualify you from being a priest of a god of humanity, as most of the gods have pretty negative aspects to them as well. There's nothing false about a Truthsayer that's a nasty piece of work. They're just as much legitimate priests of their god as Truthsayers that we would disapprove of less. Just ask the Witchhunters of Sigmarr, and how they compare to his mendicant orders. A priest basically gets some combination of the God they and their culture expects. What's most important is that the priest/sorcerer has faith that their God would help them do whatever they're seeking assistance with.
On the subject of elven magical theory, that would teach our people how to cast spells. It wouldn't help deal with the problems that humans have with learning a mindset to only channel a single Wind of Magic or the infrastructure to create the mono-wind environments almost always required to do so, as elves don't have the problems that humans do.
The reason the elven book would be so useful is that it probably contains samples of their magical language (based on the Old Ones') knowledge of which is necessary for casting safe and controlled spells. Spell casting is the second step required for humans to safely use magic.
Of course, Nolander probably doesn't know any of this, and even the Sidhe may not in detail. They will probably have never have met a human wizard, and certainly not one that wasn't a prodigy that didn't require training to control their channeling of the winds to prevent being corrupted.
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The Sidhe knew shit about the winds, even the scholarly one - none of them use the winds and even the Elders just use pure dhar to bullshit with the best of them. Hidden IC that info came from Elendil gave some data to Nolondur in order to prepare for the whole "My ward is a mage" reveal, and of course a loyal subject is willing to trust the all-wise pope-king.
Don't worry, I did talk it through with the GM.
Don't worry, I did talk it through with the GM.
OK, I do see that you are giving reasonable facts but I was working on the whole "This is a book written via combined knowledge of 'I am magic - what is Windz?' -sidhe and 'All data come from a Eldar from another world, via Palantir scanning'-Arnor".
What I've written is truthful enough that our people receive a certain level of basic fact, even if details are a bit smudged.
Also, I did call them "Compromised", not "corrupted". There is a reason for that. If you read the book more carefully, you should note that the Compromised Truthsayers are in a limbo on where on the list they stand.
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Finally, on the whole "False Truthsayer", the truthsayers of the Great Olgham most certainly seem to not trust the 'truthsayers' of these lands if they send one of their number to scout out if the locals were even gael enough to keep the DANU-DAMNED Olgham Stones standing. While it's certain that our particular truthsayer has inherent bias because of her past, I think that we could make the claim that at least politically - and in a way most gael would agree upon because of the stance of the Great Olgham truthsayers - all who claim their title and deal with Fimir are at least some type of heretics, albeit likely not heretical enough to go all Grade A Crusade on their asses without some really good opportunity where they would be weak.
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I agree that it's perfectly plausible IC.
I was clarifying to make sure people realised the difference OOC.
On one point, the fact that when the 'Compromised' Truthsayers call to Danu to perform miracles on their behalf (I.e. They can cast spells) she answers and helps them makes it very difficult for them to declare them to be completely heretical and beyond the pale. It's actually a quite challenging theological issue.
Now, you can come up with justifications about Danu's mercy and tolerance, or about how she blesses and protects all her children, even if she's disappointed in their behaviour, but it's an interesting thing they have to wrestle with as priests.
The other, probably significantly more likely option is that the Truthsayers may believe that Danu is not a moral exemplar, and have a classical, transactional, relationship with her, where they believe that if you make the right sacrifices and believe in her then she will grant miracles in your name. No one thought Zeus was a nice guy or moral example, but he was still worshipped and propriated.
Believing that gods should be moral paragons is by no means universal. It certainly isn't for Warhammer gods. Their worshippers can admit that they're flawed and still venerate them.
That way the Truthsayers wouldn't even consider it a relevant question as to why their fellows they disapproved of were supported by divine miracles, as long as they performed the right sacrifices and rituals and followed whatever specific strictures and taboos the cult has, which may well not prevent being a bastard. They may well just think that Danu doesn't care about some things, or that as a fertility goddess could approve of or not care about things they'd disapprove of personally.
I was clarifying to make sure people realised the difference OOC.
On one point, the fact that when the 'Compromised' Truthsayers call to Danu to perform miracles on their behalf (I.e. They can cast spells) she answers and helps them makes it very difficult for them to declare them to be completely heretical and beyond the pale. It's actually a quite challenging theological issue.
Now, you can come up with justifications about Danu's mercy and tolerance, or about how she blesses and protects all her children, even if she's disappointed in their behaviour, but it's an interesting thing they have to wrestle with as priests.
The other, probably significantly more likely option is that the Truthsayers may believe that Danu is not a moral exemplar, and have a classical, transactional, relationship with her, where they believe that if you make the right sacrifices and believe in her then she will grant miracles in your name. No one thought Zeus was a nice guy or moral example, but he was still worshipped and propriated.
Believing that gods should be moral paragons is by no means universal. It certainly isn't for Warhammer gods. Their worshippers can admit that they're flawed and still venerate them.
That way the Truthsayers wouldn't even consider it a relevant question as to why their fellows they disapproved of were supported by divine miracles, as long as they performed the right sacrifices and rituals and followed whatever specific strictures and taboos the cult has, which may well not prevent being a bastard. They may well just think that Danu doesn't care about some things, or that as a fertility goddess could approve of or not care about things they'd disapprove of personally.
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Hut hut, friend. You just accidentally walked into an natural mistake done by scientists and researchers alike: presuming facts.
You presume that those Truthsayers in question truly do still call down assistance from Danu.
While I agree that this can quite easily be the case and I wouldn't be surprised if it was so, you came to this comment with an "this is what is going on".
We do not know for certainty if they do in fact still have the assistance of their god. For all we know, they are simply spellcasters that use some lore and teachings learned from Old One teachings or other research they had in their hands when the split happened, to allow them stay sane while casting.
Now, is that likely or not? Irrelevant for my point and let's not debate it. But you must not start such sentences with facts that have not been confirmed.
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*Spelunking around the older parts of the thread*
*Reads this comment again*
*Facepalm*
*Reads this comment again*
*only now realizes the joke/pun*
*Facepalm*
We do know this. Ran sensed Sorcha drawing power from the realm of madness when she was spellcasting. As I discussed before, that means she was a priest or sorcerer, not a wizard, as wizards don't touch the warp to cast their spells, only channel the power that's already present in the world. We then have her perspective telling us that she follows Danu, ruling out any other patron she could be channeling the power of.
As a side note, when the Old Ones were still present, the Truthsayers could not use magic, and the Winds of Magic didn't exist. There were no wizards and could be no wizards. There would also be no humans with the mutation to channel magic, as there were no Winds to mutate them. It's a chicken and egg situation for the Truthsayers, as you very likely need arcane magic to create the infrastructure required to learn arcane magic safely.
If someone stops being a sorcerer and tries to become a wizard, they'd need to relearn everything from scratch, and they'd be fighting against the moulding into the form of their God that happens to spellcasting priests, as their God wouldn't perfectly map onto a Wind.
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Alratan, please read more carefully what you are trying to disprove...
My whole point was that we do not know if the "truthsayers" of most of these fallen gael are indeed still channeling Danu or not, instead of just channeling the winds. We do not know, for 100% certainty that the WHF-Canon = Quest Canon and as such if the truthsayers actually also cast any spells of their own. We do not know what surprises and interpretations our GM is using.
So please. Stop doing this whole "THIS IS FACT"- routine, as I tried to tell you before you misinterpreted what you quoted.
Your argument is that they were sorcerers and then became wizards?
The way priests are moulded into the image of their God makes that very unlikely indeed, to the degree I didn't even consider the possibility. They'd also need to relearn everything they knew from scratch, create massive amounts of magical infrastructure while having lost their own magic, and develop a magical language that suited their mentality from the Old Ones' and design spells based around intellectual control and understanding of the Winds rather than on Faith. Even if they had theoretical knowledge for some reason, they'd still have to learn how to apply it, which would be very hard.
There is very little overlap between the skills and talents required to be a sorcerer and a wizard (it's much, much 'easier' to cast spells as a sorcerer, most of what you absolutely need is faith and inherent talent).
The experienced ones would also only want to do this in the first place if it was consistent with their goddess to want to do so.
Note how I began by saying that the 'false' Truthsayers weren't necessarily corrupted, not that they certainly weren't. When I mentioned the 'fact' of Danu answering their prayers, I was speaking from the assumption that they were actually Truthspeakers with a Truthspeaker's powers, rather than sorcerers of another god or wizards, as they'd have different powers. It's possible, I suppose that what you call Comprimised Truthspeakers are actually not Truthspeakers at all, but instead something completely different, but the difference should be very obvious to the Sidhe, as Ran could tell when Sorcha was drawing on the warp, so the Sidhe would be able to tell that the 'false' Truthsayers were not, and were instead using a different Lore, as that's something that's immediately visible to someone with Witchsight. They'd also then know what a wizard was, and how they differed from sorcerers, as they can directly see the difference when the spells are cast.
Now, of course, this might not be canon Warhammer magic, but I'm not sure that we've seen any reason to think that so far.
The way priests are moulded into the image of their God makes that very unlikely indeed, to the degree I didn't even consider the possibility. They'd also need to relearn everything they knew from scratch, create massive amounts of magical infrastructure while having lost their own magic, and develop a magical language that suited their mentality from the Old Ones' and design spells based around intellectual control and understanding of the Winds rather than on Faith. Even if they had theoretical knowledge for some reason, they'd still have to learn how to apply it, which would be very hard.
There is very little overlap between the skills and talents required to be a sorcerer and a wizard (it's much, much 'easier' to cast spells as a sorcerer, most of what you absolutely need is faith and inherent talent).
The experienced ones would also only want to do this in the first place if it was consistent with their goddess to want to do so.
Note how I began by saying that the 'false' Truthsayers weren't necessarily corrupted, not that they certainly weren't. When I mentioned the 'fact' of Danu answering their prayers, I was speaking from the assumption that they were actually Truthspeakers with a Truthspeaker's powers, rather than sorcerers of another god or wizards, as they'd have different powers. It's possible, I suppose that what you call Comprimised Truthspeakers are actually not Truthspeakers at all, but instead something completely different, but the difference should be very obvious to the Sidhe, as Ran could tell when Sorcha was drawing on the warp, so the Sidhe would be able to tell that the 'false' Truthsayers were not, and were instead using a different Lore, as that's something that's immediately visible to someone with Witchsight. They'd also then know what a wizard was, and how they differed from sorcerers, as they can directly see the difference when the spells are cast.
Now, of course, this might not be canon Warhammer magic, but I'm not sure that we've seen any reason to think that so far.
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Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
- Location
- Germany
Gentlebeings?
What happened?
What happened?
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I think he's poking his head above the battlements, or something like that.
- Location
- Germany
I am simply not used to this thread being quiet and still.
- Location
- Germany
Every argument is made, two or three times in fact, now we wait for a turn.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Probably just waiting for @DragonParadox to release the next bit on the adventure. S'all good.
Not just two or three times, that would be a reasonable number, I stopped posting here because Altran and Lunar ect. Just wouldn't stop going round and round and round in circles about DOOOOOM
We also have the voted for Tol Cordof Interlude coming.
@DragonParadox will release them as and when he is able.
@DragonParadox will release them as and when he is able.
FieryMatter
Fire and Fiery
- Location
- Beyond the Sunset Sea
@DragonParadox any chance for an update soon? Don't rush but just wanna know cuz I have to plan my schedule. Btw I will be back in 2-3 days unless something goes wrong, exams nearly over. ATM outside school so can use wifi.
Btw regarding the argument, perhaps we could reach a compromise? My plan was intended as one, we take refugees in but don't integrate all of them some stay temporarily.
Btw regarding the argument, perhaps we could reach a compromise? My plan was intended as one, we take refugees in but don't integrate all of them some stay temporarily.
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Sorry for the long wait guys but I seem to have misplaced my inspiration for this quest. I'll get on it as soon as my writing for it gets less forced.
FieryMatter
Fire and Fiery
- Location
- Beyond the Sunset Sea
Don't rush, just wanted to know so that I can plan my own time. Basically decide which o makes to write first, in this case I will write a few that can help you out.
Also I may have more solutions to reconcile the two sides of the Gael argument.
Also I may have more solutions to reconcile the two sides of the Gael argument.
Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
@BrightFusion you ever decide which bonus from your last series would be?
No rush and quests are for you to enjoy so if you found that joy elsewhere no big deal.