Remove ads

The Dragon Roars: A KMT Quest

Reader mode
Kipeci said:
Though, I should say that an alternate view to this that I also find compelling is that Lanzhou is small potatoes compared to Beijing so empowering our party cadres to make Beijing a hotbed of Republican sentiment with revolutionary clubs sprouting everywhere and the local military on their side could be more meaningful in the long run than grabbing some lathes and secretaries to haul back to a comparative wasteland. After all, the PRC didn't historically win from just making Yan'an buff and beating down from there. Something to consider.

Edit: also, considering the internal divisions in the empowered Qing parliament just shown, injecting Republican influence in Beijing's eventual contribution to that body is an enticing prospect. Could sway more votes our way or force the Qing emperor into greater concessions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Those are some fair points, but I think unlike the PRC we wouldn't have the Soviet Union just giving us Manchuria from where we can go and reunify the Chinese State. Also, I don't think we can rely on foreign invasion exhausting all the other factions leaving us the opportunity to take advantage. And while I do admit that the prospect of making the Qing have more internal issues to deal with would be beneficial, I don't think it would be as beneficial as evacuating Industry to the areas that we control and generally strengthening the state. We do still need to do Industrialization from practically the ground up and to finish building up the bureaucracy, after all.
 
I wish that we were not in this dire situation. I suspected that Yuan Shikai would try something or simply live longer than expected and attempt to defect back to the Qing but the temptation to grab Zhili territories was too great.

We should accept the demand. It is clear that we can't win a direct fight with the Qing at this point. It is better to lose land than end up losing both manpower and land in an unwinnable war. I currently favor evacuating the industry and bureaucracy.
 
Last edited:
I like what I see!

[] Accept the Demand
-[] Evacuate the Industry
-[] Evacuate the Bureaucracy
[] Conservative Right.

"See? These people just chose to come with us, on their own free will. No foul play here, none at all!"
"Right. So I'm guessing all those tools also chose to just 'freely' go with you, then."
"...Yes. You only see the tools, but I also see the free people who wield them!"
"Hn, convenient."
 
Unfortunate, but at least we have the time to get something out of this. I'm not in favor of taking the bureaucrats since we specifically avoided grabbing them when deciding on our bureaucratic reforms to avoid the issues that'd cause. Instead I'd prefer to take the two that directly aid us in coming back for round two, evacuating industry so we can modernize our military equipment and army sympathizers so that we can seize Beijing quickly when we do come back since we're deciding on espionage later this turn anyway. Japan will likely be busy very soon with a war against Russia given previous hints about their intentions and the ones about battle soon to begin at the steppes.

[] Accept the Demand
-[] Evacuate the Industry
-[] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
[] Internationalist Left.
 
I do think that "Evacuating the Bureaucrats" is a meaningfully different option from "Rely on the Zhili Clique" option considering it just speeds up the Bureaucratic Reform instead of relying on Zhili Bureaucrats. But I can see where the concern is coming from.

Related to that is I am curious as to what would happen if you do "Evacuate the Industry" and "Sabotage the Industry" at the same time. Because it sounds like the sort-of thing that compounds but leads to unintended consequences happening.
 
Remove ads
The Jewel of China (1912)
  • Sidestory

    • The Jewel of China

    Jean-Jacques Barthélemy for Le Petit Journal. Dated March 13th, 1912.​
    The beauty of Nanjing can hardly be described in simple words, as how could one describe the perfect serenity which encapsulates the city in it's entirety? To put into prose the infinite niceties of the capital city would be to attempt to describe the sensual Goddess Aphrodite, an impossible task for any mere mortal to comprehend. Here, where the smog and ash of European industry is hardly even heard of, where the clear blue skies and the smell of the morning grass seeps into every corner of the old metropolis, one can truly see the allure of the Orient, as I arrive at these places described in only the personal diaries of Portuguese captains and intrepid silk road merchants, braving storm and danger to reach the Far East.

    I feel as if my own Marco Polo, traveling through these ancient lands unknowing of their languages or their customs, inspecting their wares which fetch astronomical prices in the West, yet which are commonplace in the capital and affordable to a humble writer such as myself. The merchants here are far too friendly to be merely ignorant, though, and I often find myself guarding and counting my wads of Francs with great zeal whilst swayed to purchase yet another strange contraption from these sly swindlers. Saint-Ouen would find it's own band of merry thieves strongly challenged by these intrepid capitalists, to be sure.

    The brisk flowing of the willow trees which line the old Yangtze River, every so often catching a glimpse of a local riverboat passing under the beautifully constructed bridges of Chinese make, the intricate lines which form the railings of stone and copper excites the mind as ever before, as my fingers glide through the hunch of a sculpted dragon, catching onto carved indents which form the scale of this eastern behemoth from one side of the bridge to the other. Their dragons are not the huge beasts of European folklore, striking terror into the people, but instead slim and graceful giants gliding through the air, without the wings which drape the beasts of westerlore. They are terrifying still, yet that terror is coupled with a grace unmatched by the skill of Paris' most gorgeous ballerinas.

    Suddenly, a great bellowing arrives from the right, as I am reminded of the reason for my short walk through the city, the reminder of western civilization as ever bringing this ancient city to the future. The great metal beasts which hulk across great stretches of nothing, atop steel beams made in smoke-belching and soot-ridden factories, in a matter of moments. As I look on towards the arrival of the train, making port from it's long journey within Nanjing Central Station, my mind wanders ever more to the west once again. The Chinese leader of the Xin Han, Duan Qirui, whom I had fortuitously met with during my travels, bequeathed for me countless blessings and tidings, speaking fondly of the French people. To be sure, he is a great man, often working in the Presidential Palace for hours at a time. He told me that, "The Chinese people stagnate in their peace, and it is our duty to propel them forward once more."

    I often wonder if I agree with that latter part.

    The smoke rises from the engine once more, as I depart for Shanghai's ocean-swept winds. It is black and all-consuming, taking away that blue sky which I had seen so oft. The city leaves me behind, a distant shadow of what China was, as the train's smoke hangs over it like the Sword of Damocles.

    I hope, for once, that it does not drop so soon yet, for I shall miss that scenery so dearly should it do so.    ​

    A/N: A strange little idea for a look into the Xin Han. Hope you all enjoy it :)
     
    Last edited:
  • Sidestory
    • Personally in favor of evacuating industry & building up KMT insiders within the Qing's Zhili forces to both bolster us *and* prepare for our eventual showdown against the Manchurian dynasty.

    As an aside re: our commitment to go to war by 1914 - there's still one northern warlord which hasn't been pulled into our sphere. Afterwards, I remind that we retain a claim on Tibet-occupied Xikang (we decided to give up our claims to Tibet proper). When both of those issues are resolved, we can tackle the Taiping.

    Then, we should also try attracting Xin Han to join the fight against the Qing, since that'll drag in Japan too.

    I'm less clear on what direction to take after that, depends on how the next global war is arranged
     
    I'm a bit concerned that if we don't evacuate the bureaucrats we'll be in a vulnerable position where the Ma Families might reassert their influence over the bureaucracy. We mollified them somewhat but still planned on undermining their political power by training up a new class of professional civil servants that answer to the government. Well we've barely had any time to do that. We were depending on the Zhili Clique to help make that happen using people from their province and educators, in addition to party resources since we didn't pick the "rely on Zhili Clique" option. Giving up the territory means we're back to square one. The Ma Families will realize that too and likely make a move to reassert their political authority. Cultural recognition is nice and all, but we go back from having multiple options so they know they have to play nice with us to having one option: them.

    It seems better safe than sorry to get those professional civil servants out now so we don't lose the progress we've made on establishing a bureaucracy.
     
    That is not true to my understanding? The "Rely on the Zhili Clique" option was the one that would've given us a better administration immediately, but we instead chose "Ground Up Reconstruction" which involves us creating a new bureaucratic structure entirely. No mention was made of us being dependent on the Zhili Clique's bureaucrats in this and even now all evacuating the bureaucracy does is accelerate the completion of our reforms. Our current progress has zero reliance on them.

    While the original concern with relying on them in the first place was that it would "stoke fears of a possible bureaucratic insurrection" which is somewhat less likely here, they still will have other issues that arise that comes with trying to integrate established bureaucrats to a system being built from the ground up to be a party bureaucracy.
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
    [X] Internationalist Left.
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
    [X] Progressive Left.

    I want the bureaucrats to speed up our process and really make sure the Ma Families stay down, but the possibility of disrupting his army to lay the groundwork for our return is tempting. It depends on how well we run our intelligence services, so we'll see how that goes.
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] Evacuate the Bureaucracy
    [X] Progressive Right.

    Still think building up our base is a better idea than the alternatives.
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] Evacuate the Bureaucracy
    [X] Syndicalist Left
     
    [x] Syndicalist Left
    [x] Accept the Demand
    - [x] Evacuate the Industry
    - [x] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
     
    Last edited:
    [X] Syndicalist Left
    [X] Accept the Demand
    - [X] Evacuate the Industry
    - [X] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] KMT Sympathizers in the Zhili Army
    [X] Internationalist Left.
     
    [X] Accept the Demand
    -[X] Evacuate the Industry
    -[X] Evacuate the Bureaucracy
    [X] Conservative Right.

    Instead of plans that could work in the future, focus on strengthening ourselves now to defend what we already have.

    Conservative strategy.
     
    Acc. No. 1409 said:
    Those are some fair points, but I think unlike the PRC we wouldn't have the Soviet Union just giving us Manchuria from where we can go and reunify the Chinese State. Also, I don't think we can rely on foreign invasion exhausting all the other factions leaving us the opportunity to take advantage. And while I do admit that the prospect of making the Qing have more internal issues to deal with would be beneficial, I don't think it would be as beneficial as evacuating Industry to the areas that we control and generally strengthening the state. We do still need to do Industrialization from practically the ground up and to finish building up the bureaucracy, after all.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I'm not talking about relying on getting a big hammer from foreigners, it's not a part of my argument; if anything, the Republican forces were the bigger beneficiary of Soviet aid over many years because Moscow thought that the only path to their ideology winning out was ensuring that the Republicans survived and then subverting them. The USSR swapped horses partway through because they became convinced that the Republicans were incompetent and the Communists would actually be able to win the war.

    What I'm getting at instead is that we have a very sparse population in the northwest. We don't have near the manpower that other Chinese states can throw around at this point from the power of the local area. What we do have is a framework of a country which is kind of viable enough to support a particular idea; that is, the idea of the Republic, which many find preferable to the alternatives of bickering warlords, the old Manchu emperors, an explicit puppet of foreigners, or a cult state. Nurturing that idea such that some larger fraction of the massive number of people in Beijing (some of whom will have a lot of talent and influence) will autonomously act towards our interests and with a local military at the ready to throw in with us if there's ever an opportune time can provide significant future benefit. Whereas stealing factories and scholars away to the northwest seems counterproductive to capturing their heart… I meam, sure, our local area will be better run and richer than before but Qing will still be the 800 pound gorilla in comparison.

    On that note, Qing is also the leading power of the Chinese states and we don't want them to go on a conquering spree. Giving them indigestion buys time for us to be expanding at the expense of weaker neighbors rather than them before they can expand their curtain of Japanese protected conquests.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top