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The two colonies are just simply not comparable.
That's my point. Nimal Pak seems in a blatantly worse starting position than Assilia as a colony.
It's going to outproduce Assilia eventually just due to astrographics, but it's not stated to become profitable faster.
And since we don't even have Assilia completed as a benchmark for how long it takes a colony to become self-sustaining.

Virani has been preparing Nimal Pak's system for colonization for years, and it is set to dramatically increase profit when that actually starts:
This isn't true.
Virani only got to Nimal Pak infrastructure in Year 18.One. Year. Ago.
And she has been investing in mining infrastructure. In space.

Terrestrial infrastructure is a different matter.
The tens of thousands of credits would all come out of the FDO's budget, which we have sitting at 70k, and the colony would not be the same size or scale as on Assilia:
Which is not producing cash while it's being invested in Nimal Pak. We went into this.
Furthermore, Assilia is literally next door, less than twelve hours journey.
Nimal Pak is a week or so travel, possibly more IIRC. Even with fewer people, it's running costs are going to be higher .

It is explicitly intended to be a similar size and scale as a normal mining outpost. It is explicitly supposed to take a similar amount of time to set up. The differences are that it takes more money to start, it takes more labor, its existence actively improves every other mining colony in the system, and it gets even better over time.
It's supposed to START that way, sure. It's also meant to grow. You know, like colonies do.
And while it grows, it's going to need to be supported. And the money the FDO spends there, isn't spent elsewhere.
TANSTAAFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
 
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It's supposed to START that way, sure. It's also meant to grow. You know, like colonies do.
And while it grows, it's going to need to be supported. And the money the FDO spends there, isn't spent elsewhere.
TANSTAAFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

...What? Are you trying to say that a colony at that size can't produce more than it costs?
 
...What? Are you trying to say that a colony at that size can't produce more than it costs?
The mechanics of colonization as elucidated in this quest clearly state that the starting size of a colony affects how long before it becomes profitable.
Turn 14 Results
How big does Mira want the initial colonization wave to be?

[ ][PEOPLE] Small. "Small," is an interesting word to apply to a million people, but you're settling planets here, and your population measures in the billions. With this, you could get a very single solid foothold on the new planet in the first wave, and let them grow from there. This many people won't be hard to organize or supply, but it'll be a while before they reach the point of being able to truly exploit their new home in a way that's profitable to you.
[ ][PEOPLE] Medium. About ten million colonists could create several solid beachheads on the target world, allowing them to spread more quickly. However, that's a substantial group to equip, and the loss of ten million workers doesn't exactly pass without notice back home.
[ ][PEOPLE] Large. A hundred million colonists can nearly blot out the sky of their new world, landing in droves and establishing settlements all over the surface. For the smaller or less hospitable colony prospects, this is probably as large as they'll ever get. If you want a colony up and running quickly, this is the way to go. However, a wave this big is incredibly expensive to supply, and the loss of a hundred million people from Virmire's economy will be noticed in some significant ways -- you'll need the speed they'll grant to get the colony productive swiftly! It would normally be difficult to even convince this many people to pick up and leave, but with your current level of enthusiasm, you've successfully handled that problem a step in advance.

TWO-HOUR MORATORIUM. THESE VOTES ARE NOW CLOSED.

And here we are! Had to go back and edit, but we're done. Let me know if I made any mistakes, as usual; I'm still half-convinced I messed up the state of your finances.

Regarding the colony options: these options do not incur costs this year. Next year, an option will appear generated by the options you pick now. If you pick all of the most expensive options — SO 25 with Large, for instance — you will have hundreds of thousands of credits up front and several tens of thousands in maintenance before you count in building the chain of supply depots it'll take to get reliable civilian travel (if you decide to do so. I won't make you). Pick Assilia with Small and you'll see a few tens of thousands up front and the FDO's growth alone would swallow the upkeep in a year or two. Hugely variable. Either way, it will be within your present theoretical capacity to execute given a year or two's serious budgeting — and you will have a year or two.
I do not make these objections lightly.
If you check my votes, you'll find that I was voting a path towards the SO28 microcluster back before the FDO was even created.

But this was not the time for diving into Nimal Pak.
 
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Oh yeah.
With your latest expansion of your shipyards, the amount of megatonnage you can build has skyrocketed. That said, your fleets continue to lag, although the gap swiftly closes. With the Naval Intelligence Directorate's recommendation of an immediate and renewed offensive to exploit rachni weakness, you have shifted reinforcement priority firmly over to the 1st Raiding Fleet, in order to better enable such maneuvers.

Production has finally stabilized with your comprehensive review of your military administration, at a higher level than you ever dared to imagine. With your capabilities, you anticipate being able to produce a Raiding Fleet every other year, or a Battle Fleet in a little over four.
Naval Forces

1st Battle Fleet (Commanding Officer Fleet Admiral Namal; flagship dreadnought VWS Republican). Based out of Hoc, Sentry Omega; Patrolling Hercules System, Attican Beta. At 87% strength.

1st Raiding Fleet (Commanding Officer Fleet Admiral Beshkar; flagship Battlecruiser VWS Karimar). Based out of Hercules, Attican Beta; Patrolling Attican Beta and Kepler Verge Clusters. At 100% strength.

3rd Rannoch War Fleet (Commanding Officer Fleet Admiral Kassa'Malan; flagship Dreadnought RSS Perseus). Based out of Vayrule, Sentry Omega; patrolling Sentry Omega Cluster. At 34% strength.

Explorer Corps (Commanding Officer Rear Admiral Yelena S'Rinna; flagship Survey Cruiser VWS Emancipator). Based out of Hoc, Sentry Omega; dispersed deployment to scouting operations, exploration missions, and [CLASSIFIED]. At full strength.

Naval Security Board (CL-class defense platforms deployed to key locations). On station at deployment zones. At full strength.

Virmire Void Marines (350,000 beings under arms, Commanding Officer General Lirak Tannuvael). Suffering heavy loss of institutional veterancy.
One raiding fleet every two years.
Gentlepeople, we've officially hit the bigtime.
 
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The mechanics of colonization as elucidated in this quest clearly state that the starting size of a colony affects how long before it becomes profitable.
Turn 14 Results

I do not make these objections lightly.
If you check my votes, you'll find that I was voting a path towards the SO28 microcluster back before the FDO was even created.

But this was not the time for diving into Nimal Pak.

I am aware of the mechanics of colonization, but you're ignoring the explicit differences and descriptions that apply to Nimal Pak specifically, and you're ignoring the difference between us funding the colony directly and the FDO funding it. Those mechanics are for settling planets. The proposal is not for that, it is for mining the planet and acting as a hub for mining in the system.

When Poptart says to treat the colony like a ground-based mining outpost, treat it like a ground-based mining outpost. Based on the FDO's budget, let's say the two mining sites the FDO developed this year cost 30k apiece and each brings in 22k yearly. Realistically, Nimal Pak will cost more and produce less initially than a space-based mining outpost of the same size, but it will also have a higher return on investment in the long run by virtue of the way colonies work and due to interplay with the Nimal Pak system's other mining outposts.

With Assilia, we had a huge startup cost and we pay 30k every year. Until it reaches self-sufficiency, everything it produces goes back into the colony. Under the FDO, Nimal Pak costs some amount of money to start and some amount of money to hit each new phase of its expansion, all of which is below our notice, while everything it produces goes straight back to us the way any other mining outpost does.
 
But it meant us giving up additional income at a time the budgetary income was crashing
Okay, I kept seeing this, but I kept on thinking that I had to be misreading it. But there is no misreading this.

There is a reason why the options to refuse Virani -- or to get rid of her in general -- had to do with political concerns rather than economic ones -- and why I was so clear on the fact that the entire MoF was backing her on this, when it came up in discussion.

You seem to be under the impression that the things she would have been developing would have been full colonies -- they would not be. As I stated previously -- I know that I've seen it quoted up above -- this was more on the order of a mining outpost, but ground-based. This was not a proper colonization wave -- the goal was not economic self-sufficiency. This was to set up a mine. To slowly fund economically-rewarding construction on the planet's surface as financially viable. It was the same kind of project she's been doing, but on the ground and with the authority to develop them beyond simple mining concerns. "Colonies," yes, in the sense that they'd be ground-based, but not even remotely something like Assilia Prime.

Economically or financially, there were no drawbacks to this whatsoever. Your Stewardship 23 ("Masterful") Minister of Finance would not have so unreservedly backed it if there were. There is a reason I made so sure to clearly announce that anybody with a qualified opinion on the matter was in favor.

In short:
Let's just settle this by going to the source. @PoptartProdigy is it accurate that even in the immediate term, having Virani develop Nimal Pak was the most profitable choice from a purely economic perspective?
Very and extremely, yes.
 
well, I hate to say it poptart, but your word choice on using the word colony in the same turn we were developing an actual colony was suboptimal. mebby 'mining operation' would have been clearer?
 
I'm with poptart. Wtf you guys?

Like, I thought it was pretty clear that the only reasons to reject her proposal for the mining colony were the political and the paranoid.
 
One word should not outweigh over a hundred. I will accept partial blame, but no more than that.
I wasn't trying to say you're the only one responsible? uju's argument to go after HQ mines makes a lot of sense too.

that said, i'd probably voted for the colony option if it was called a planetary mining operation... in the same way that the FDO was originally the OMC when we failed the roll. Maybe after talking with Lissa, Verana calls it a 'Planetary mining operation' next year we can decide again?

Like, I thought it was pretty clear that the only reasons to reject her proposal for the mining colony were the political and the paranoid.
And I thought I knew what founding a colony meant: IE Assilia Prime, AKA ROI of ... sure sometime at some point
 
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well, I hate to say it poptart, but your word choice on using the word colony in the same turn we were developing an actual colony was suboptimal. mebby 'mining operation' would have been clearer?

But it is, technically, the first step of a colony. It's one that can either be developed extremely slowly through the FDO or, later, probably expanded through an action or opened up to civilian development when that's viable. However, Poptart said in the post where they opened voting, that it would effectively start as a mining outpost and to treat it as such.

Vote's open.

Everybody, to clarify: The FDO building ground infrastructure would be on their budget, both cost and upkeep. Those 70,000 credits they get every year. Commensurately, FDO-built colonies are going to be extremely small, and will grow slowly; think, "we built a mining outpost just like we do every year, but this time it sits on the ground." Virani is asking for this because ground infrastructure is labor-intensive, while in this case (Nimal Pak) also being the key to a massive industrial expansion; she identifies it as the most efficient way to address some of the problems Virmire faces.

And seriously, if literally everyone in our Ministry of Finance including two of our closest advisors think that it's the best possible economic option, then don't interpret the option in a way that makes it less than the best possible economic option. They know what they're doing, and they know what we want and need, they aren't making that recommendation baselessly or in a vacuum.
 
Well, seems decisions were made on some rather bad interpretations of the statements that were made. We'll need to switch back to focusing on Nimal Pak in the next year or two, then. We can probably excuse our focus on getting some high quality systems up and running for mining as a need to ensure that our cash flow is secure so we can run the government and the nation's war machine, but we'll want to get focus back on what's actually efficient for our industrial expansion pretty quickly. Maybe even throw some extra credits at the FDO budget for a year or two to hasten colonization, if we can.
 
Distracted by news update for a bit....
Okay, I kept seeing this, but I kept on thinking that I had to be misreading it. But there is no misreading this.
There is a reason why the options to refuse Virani -- or to get rid of her in general -- had to do with political concerns rather than economic ones -- and why I was so clear on the fact that the entire MoF was backing her on this, when it came up in discussion.
Very and extremely, yes.
Perhaps it's another matter of crossed wires here.
Because I read colony and not ground mine, which seemed to be two very different things.
My fault for not requesting further clarification.

I mean, I've kept going out of my way to defend Virani, and assert that ambition is no crime, as long as the person stays within the remit of the law.
Not exactly going to pass up extra budget during a crisis in order to hobble someone who might be a future political opponent. Not in the middle of a genocidal war. That's just stupid. And we cannot afford stupidity.

Not that Mira is beyond political considerations in making staffing or spending decisions, but it wouldn't be motivated by personal political benefit.
Not now.
Economically or financially, there were no drawbacks to this whatsoever. Your Stewardship 23 ("Masterful") Minister of Finance would not have so unreservedly backed it if there were. There is a reason I made so sure to clearly announce that anybody with a qualified opinion on the matter was in favor.
Point of order:
Lissa, was, and I quote:
I will note that Virani's assessment of the value of Nimal Pak, while indeed just her opinion, is an opinion without notable opposition from the rest of the Ministry of Finance. Lissa agreed with her, in fact, quite fervently.
Not the same thing, as I remember it.
Value of a place does not translate to it's immediate exploitability.

What's done is done, I guess.
I suppose we can perform a write-in to allow it next turn.

EDIT
@Kinruush
You were right. My apologies.
 
And seriously, if literally everyone in our Ministry of Finance including two of our closest advisors think that it's the best possible economic option, then don't interpret the option in a way that makes it less than the best possible economic option. They know what they're doing, and they know what we want and need, they aren't making that recommendation baselessly or in a vacuum.
To address this:
Efficiency means most yield for effort, with least waste.
We were attempting short-term profitability.

Lissa's opinion as stated here:
uju32 said:
This is the problem as I see it:
Virani believes that Nimal Pak is the best net return on investment. She may even be right. But there is no hard timetable on when it becomes profitable, or how much it returns. Shit you need for economic planning, especially in our current straits.

You can't plan on it.

We know OTOH that HQ mines will bring in ~22,000 credits each. Per mine.
And her current allocation of ~70,000/year is enough to punch out two of them per year for the next couple years.
I'd rather stick with the sure thing than the speculative shot until our budget and economy stabilizes.

It's not a politics thing, at least not from my PoV.
It certainly isn't about her ambition; competent opposition is good, andI'm fairly confident Mira can clobber her if it comes to politics.
It's a hard economics decision.


Virani's pretty good at implementation.
That doesn't mean she's necessarily all that good at planning, or that she's taking non-economic concerns into account.

Besides, remember: Mira LIKES the woman, even if she is keeping a short leash on her.
I will note that Virani's assessment of the value of Nimal Pak, while indeed just her opinion, is an opinion without notable opposition from the rest of the Ministry of Finance. Lissa agreed with her, in fact, quite fervently.
Suggests that she agrees about the value of Nimal Pak, but said nothing about it's immediate profitability.
The amount of value we could squeeze out of it immediately.

Those were the judgements on which I made my vote.
 
Not the same thing, as I remember it.
Value of a place does not translate to it's immediate exploitability.
I do now see that; in the context of an ongoing economic crash, however, Lissa is going to be discussing the short-term more or less exclusively, unless mentioned otherwise. She is under no impression that you can in any way afford a long-term focus. She knows what she's about. Hopefully that will clear this up, for the future.
 
We all goofed a bit then. That's fine, I still think the political kneecapping is worth the inefficiency. Not a fan of mega corporations, dealing with too many of them IRL.
 
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We all goofed a bit then. That's fine, I still think the political kneecapping is worth the indfficiency. Not a fan of mega corporations, dealing with too many of them IRL.
I do not agree.

We're not the lystheni, we're not attempting to set up a personal dynasty.
And it's out of character for Mira to deliberately handicap people who, as far as she knows, are doing their job to the best of their ability. For personal political advantage at that. That's the kind of shit she detested in the previous administration.

As for megacorps, I would like to point out that the FDO is a government agency.
Funded with roughly 20% of our current budget.
I don't know why you think it's a megacorp.
 
We're not the lystheni, we're not attempting to set up a personal dynasty.
And it's out of character for Mira to deliberately handicap people who, as far as she knows, are doing their job to the best of their ability. For personal political advantage at that. That's the kind of shit she detested in the previous administration.

Not that into the paranoid angle myself, but to play devil's advocate a bit here, it's not necessarily about personal political advantage - there's definite danger on an institutional level to giving too much power to the (relatively) unaccountable FDO versus the elected PM and/or legislature. Even if we trust Virani, if we set precedent for a powerful FDO we're also going to need all her successors to be equally safe with that level of power.
 
Not that into the paranoid angle myself, but to play devil's advocate a bit here, it's not necessarily about personal political advantage - there's definite danger on an institutional level to giving too much power to the (relatively) unaccountable FDO versus the elected PM and/or legislature. Even if we trust Virani, if we set precedent for a powerful FDO we're also going to need all her successors to be equally safe with that level of power.

That's fair, but we have to take into account that, at some point, we're going to automate colonization. This isn't even that, though. This is on-planet mining outposts with the potential to grow into colonies. What this does do which could potentially become concerning is that the FDO's planetary choices for mining outposts could be used to pressure later colonization efforts into specific systems. Also, potentially, after many, many years, a planetary mining outpost established by the FDO could, purely through its efforts, become large enough to be considered a colony in its own right while still being part of the FDO's remit.

However, in my opinion, the solution to those potential concerns and any others that may rise about the FDO or any other department of the bureaucracy is the same: watch it carefully, and, if it gets to be too large a concentration of power, take part of it away and spin it into its own department. The FDO ends up settling a dozen planets, each with a city? Well, we do need to eventually automate colonization anyway, so we set up a department that handles the selection of colonization targets and the establishment of and communication with colonial governments and put it under the MoR's purview. Require it to work closely with the FDO to select colonization prospects and give it the authority to determine when a "mining outpost" qualifies as a colony.

That's just an example. The real point I'm trying to make is that worries about the concentration of power in an administration aren't solved by avoiding the problem, they're solved by paying attention and administrating.
 
That's just an example. The real point I'm trying to make is that worries about the concentration of power in an administration aren't solved by avoiding the problem, they're solved by paying attention and administrating.

I'm largely in agreement - like I said, that was mostly devil's advocacy. I just object to the characterization of concerns about concentration of power as being purely about personal political standing.
 
I'm largely in agreement - like I said, that was mostly devil's advocacy. I just object to the characterization of concerns about concentration of power as being purely about personal political standing.

Yeah, I caught that, but I just felt that you provided a perfect opportunity to address that concern, and I didn't really want to pass it up. I know that the vote already failed, so going on at length about it is largely moot, but I'm going down with the ship, and I'll keep ranting beneath the waves.
 
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My problem is that this is not the time to be dealing with this issue; quite frankly we can't afford the time to closely monitor her actions right now. Maybe once we're out of the immediate path of the hurricane, but now is not a great time.
 
Dang, now I feel kinda bad. When the vote shifted to voting No to the FDO proposal I assumed I'd misinterpreted but didn't bother to go back and check = / Ah, well. As was mentioned, we can always ask the FDO to pretty please go ahead with that but maybe later - getting a cluster of high quality mining spots running ASAP could be spun as an immediate economic necessity that takes precedence over future colonial developments.

The important thing, overall, is that we're no longer hurtling headfirst at breakneck pace into economic oblivion, and I'd like to think Poptart isn't going to immediately doom us because of a few sub-optimal choices here and there, particularly ones that fall outside our major Ministry operations. And besides, they add flavour, and without flavour, this whole RP would just be spreadsheets and boring icky maths, and no one wants that.
 
I do not agree.

We're not the lystheni, we're not attempting to set up a personal dynasty.
And it's out of character for Mira to deliberately handicap people who, as far as she knows, are doing their job to the best of their ability. For personal political advantage at that. That's the kind of shit she detested in the previous administration.

As for megacorps, I would like to point out that the FDO is a government agency.
Funded with roughly 20% of our current budget.
I don't know why you think it's a megacorp.
Noting that allowing a particular government subelement to accrue authority beyond its charter is a good way to set up a de-facto dynasty within a theoretically democratic government.
 
I'm just wondering if people are being over-paranoid about the actual danger of a powergrab, as opposed to the potential danger. Remember, after all, that Virani is also an Asari, and so likely to be patient about any major ambitions... especially since Mira's a genius military leader, and we do have an existential threat looming.
 
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