Again, you don't know how to defend against this shit, you're wide open.
Hell, the very existence of the Rachni proves the utter folly of assuming that problems will remain geographically limited and won't come to you.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
I'm assuming massive secrecy and security is standard.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
I'm thinking there is a much larger divide in our opinions. One exacerbated by the fundamental HoneyPot nature of the ME universe.
Basically: Are there occasions where researching something, right now, is intrinsically more dangerous than not researching it?
Without adequate precautions, with insufficient men and women, insufficient funding, in civilian areas.....
But xenoarchaeology is a large component of how Mass Effect society has come to be, literally digging up the ruins of Prothean society and studying it for scientific insight. The risk is known and accepted as part of going into the field.
Note how no one is suggesting throwing the rest of the artifacts from the same planet into the sun, despite not having any idea if the rest of them have any other risk to people. Or the issues at Amalinya with the apparent drone army, and we're not simply nuking the place.
Neither the Reapers, nor the Leviathans, nor the Thorian will stop using mind control out of fair play because we thought it was too icky a subject to study. And that assumes there are no other hostile races out there, like survivors of the previous cycle.
As for the people who talk about risk to the researchers, let me point out that we send several hundred thousand people into harms way against numerical odds every time we send a fleet out to go fight the Rachni. Hell, we lost a hundred thousand men and women, a third of our Marines, the last time we fought the Rachni in close quarters combat.
Against that total, some risk to researchers really doesn't register. They're volunteers, they're paid well, they sign the waivers.
It's not like even modern science is risk free; researchers die in the field when chasing disease outbreaks or doing archaeology/wildlife research. Let alone war reporters.
EDIT
Hell, canonically, even after Shepherd reports that indoctrination is a thing, the Citadel continues research on Reaper tech.
That's where Thanix cannon came from after all, and some of the ground weapons.
They just took more precautions.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Apr 11, 2018 at 12:03 PM, finished with 190 posts and 79 votes.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
[X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
At minimum we should research it enough so that we could identify similar artifacts and effects. Personally I'm a fan of solarifying it after that's done, but then I'm paranoid bastard.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Write -In Put in a 'Black Box' and don't open it for another 100 years. One day we'll have the technology and brains to maybe understand the world better and really look into what the principles of this thing. An then maybe we can find alternative uses for this technology. But for now it's simply too dangerous in an era where War with the Racchni is at our door step. Future Prime Ministers may reverse this order before the 100 year mark and begin experimentation but it should be made clear to them the risks this research has. It should NOT be made for political points it should be made as part of very real emergency that cannot be assauged without conventional Diplomatic, Inteligence, and Military avenues.
Summary: We table this shit and freeze IT and it's research notes for 100 years.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
Let's not mess with the eldritch brainwashing thingy.
I seriously doubt it's even possible to safely study this.
The Lystheni containment protocols were apparently very good and it still worked on the research team.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
Let's not mess with the eldritch brainwashing thingy.
I seriously doubt it's even possible to safely study this.
The Lystheni containment protocols were apparently very good and it still worked on the research team.
I seriously doubt it's even possible to safely study this.
The Lystheni containment protocols were apparently very good and it still worked on the research team.
Incorrect. When they thought the artifact was just another artifact, it succeeded in subverting researchers. But they found out about the artifact. By all indications, there have been no more (accidental) exposures since the Lystheni found out. By absolutely every standard you can find, the Lystheni's present measures of containment have a 100% success rate.
[X] Write -In Put in a 'Black Box' and don't open it for another 100 years. One day we'll have the technology and brains to maybe understand the world better and really look into what the principles of this thing. An then maybe we can find alternative uses for this technology. But for now it's simply too dangerous in an era where War with the Racchni is at our door step. Future Prime Ministers may reverse this order before the 100 year mark and begin experimentation but it should be made clear to them the risks this research has. It should NOT be made for political points it should be made as part of very real emergency that cannot be assauged without conventional Diplomatic, Inteligence, and Military avenues.
Summary: We table this shit and freeze IT and it's research notes for 100 years.
I'm pretty sure in a hundred years we will still be the prime minister I mean it is possible we won't be but well Mira is a young at 170 so at worse we are looking at a possible reign of being prime minister that lasts 800 more years if we remain good at our jobs though I can see some use of this option though not enough right now to vote for it
Let's not mess with the eldritch brainwashing thingy.
I seriously doubt it's even possible to safely study this. The Lystheni containment protocols were apparently very good and it still worked on the research team.
Incorrect. When they thought the artifact was just another artifact, it succeeded in subverting researchers. But they found out about the artifact. By all indications, there have been no more (accidental) exposures since the Lystheni found out. By absolutely every standard you can find, the Lystheni's present measures of containment have a 100% success rate.
It only worked on the research team BEFORE they knew it had mind control abilities.
Since they found out, and instituted their current containment? There has been no accidental exposure.
The Lystheni have been doing their research without accidentally exposing anyone.
We can do the same.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Apr 11, 2018 at 1:47 PM, finished with 203 posts and 87 votes.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
[X]Plan Sunshine
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] All Lystheni military assets placed under your command.
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
--[X] Full lystheni intelligence records
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (claim the LBZ).
--[X] Claim all Lystheni research sites. Allow joint access to vetted lystheni scientists on condition of full data disclosure.
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies OR the FDO).
[X][SISTER] Imprisonment. People in favor of the death penalty would object to this one, but those against would love it, so it comes out to as popular.
[X][DAD] Imprison him in Virmirean space. More proportional to anything he's actually done, and Shereel asked that he live, so it's not a hard concession.
[X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[X] Write -In Put in a 'Black Box' and don't open it for another 100 years. One day we'll have the technology and brains to maybe understand the world better and really look into what the principles of this thing. An then maybe we can find alternative uses for this technology. But for now it's simply too dangerous in an era where War with the Racchni is at our door step. Future Prime Ministers may reverse this order before the 100 year mark and begin experimentation but it should be made clear to them the risks this research has. It should NOT be made for political points it should be made as part of very real emergency that cannot be assauged without conventional Diplomatic, Inteligence, and Military avenues.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
They tried to blow up the fusion reactor of their space station. With themselves inside.
At no point in time have indoctrinated EVER attempted to commit suicide in canon.
Or to attempt to remove the indoctrination/mind control focus away from others.
I think you're not properly accounting for the perspective of the people who made the observations about the researchers when you place as much weight as you do on the line about antisocial behavior, and I think you're dismissing the possibility that it's a Reaper artifact from surface details before trying to determine whether it's actually plausible.
For example, who determined that the researchers were exhibiting "antisocial behavior?" Was it their interrogators after they were caught? Whoever their off-station superiors were? The guards on the station? I don't recall "antisocial behavior" as a phrase being used in canon, no, but paranoia is explicitly used when describing the effects of Reaper indoctrination. Is the use of one here and not the other a sign that it isn't a Reaper artifact, or is it because Poptart is trying to avoid tying the more obviously artifact to the Reapers?
Externally, the effects of indoctrination can certainly look pretty antisocial. In Mass Effect 1 on Virmire (hah), there's a Salarian in a cell named Menos Avot who was a member of Kirrahe's STG unit. If we removed his knowledge about the experiments he was undergoing and his loyalty to Kirrahe and, by extension, to Shepard, so that he'd have less incentive to explain what he's experienced and is experiencing, I'd likely classify him as antisocial.
As far as suicide goes, I can think of two specific examples. First, in Mass Effect 2's Arrival DLC, Dr. Kenson tried to blow up the station by destabilizing the station's reactor she and Shepard were on after it became clear that Shepard might have been able to reactivate the project. Second, Rana Thanoptis, if you let her live in both ME1 and ME2, will kill high ranking Asari military officials and then commit suicide in ME3. In the first case, Kenson tried to kill herself (and everyone else on the station) rather than fail in a more important task. In the second, Thanoptis killed herself after executing her task rather than going down in a firefight or risking being caught. Back with Menos Avot, if you don't let him free, he kills himself in a near-mindless attempt to get out of his cell.
Looking at the order of events we're given by Durrahe, the researchers banded together, then seized control of the station, then were defeated by Lytheni irregulars, and finally were hostile in interrogations afterward. Were they trying to overload the power core from when they first took control of the station, or did they try to overload it once it became clear they couldn't hold off the irregulars? What specific symptoms were classified as "antisocial?" We don't know the answers to those yet, and even if we did, we still wouldn't have enough information to definitively say that this isn't a Reaper artifact.
And Reaper artifacts are just left lying around. Kenson was indoctrinated by "Object Rho," which was just left in an asteroid. The artifact that indoctrinated Delolas Arterius and TIM in Mass Effect: Revelation was found who the hell knows where before the shuttle carrying it crashed on Shanxi. There's a Reaper indoctrination device in an abandoned mine on Aequitas. The Reaper that Cerberus was studying in Mass Effect 2 was supposedly dead and just sitting there for 37 million years.
However, you have given enough good reasons that it could be something else that I'm more than willing to say it could easily be a Leviathan artifact or an artifact of something completely different, even including an anti-Reaper artifact of a long-dead civilization, and, if anything, thinking about just how many artifacts are lying around that are Reaper-made or Leviathan-made or just have something to do with the Reapers has convinced me that you have a point about studying it before the next one inevitably crops up, particularly if it does so in someone else's hands. So, while I don't agree that it necessarily isn't Reaper-tech, in the end it doesn't actually matter as far as we're concerned.
Maybe he means one like this? Except, you know, pink.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
Neither the Reapers, nor the Leviathans, nor the Thorian will stop using mind control out of fair play because we thought it was too icky a subject to study. And that assumes there are no other hostile races out there, like survivors of the previous cycle.
We're operating on different viewpoints here. What if mind control itself is so fundamentally toxic to our social structure that its very presence results in the collapse of society.
To clarify again: I do not think that Poptart would do this but the Reapers, the Leviathan and the Thorian don't give a damn about Civilization as we define it. They could quite happily create and employ weapons without much societal impact where our culture would spin into a horrifying civil war if we even proposed creating Bioweapons or AI.
Except for the bit where their leadership went totally, insanely, stupid. Hopefully it was due to direct exposure. If not, they went nuts just because of the possibilities of what it offered. Sorry if I don't think such a thing is safe in anybody's hands.
We're operating on different viewpoints here. What if mind control itself is so fundamentally toxic to our social structure that its very presence results in the collapse of society.
To clarify again: I do not think that Poptart would do this but the Reapers, the Leviathan and the Thorian don't give a damn about Civilization as we define it. They could quite happily create and employ weapons without much societal impact where our culture would spin into a horrifying civil war if we even proposed creating Bioweapons or AI.
Pretty sure AI isn't prescribed yet, but still I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, which is that we would ever. In a million years in any character use it on our own people...or anyone else for that matter.
Except for the bit where their leadership went totally, insanely, stupid. Hopefully it was due to direct exposure. If not, they went nuts just because of the possibilities of what it offered. Sorry if I don't think such a thing is safe in anybody's hands.
Except for the bit where their leadership went totally, insanely, stupid. Hopefully it was due to direct exposure. If not, they went nuts just because of the possibilities of what it offered. Sorry if I don't think such a thing is safe in anybody's hands.
Ok fuck it. Explain then, explain how you defend against something when you absolutely refuse to study it. Because that's what you are advocating, that we just destroy it and hope for the best when we encounter races that do use it's technology. Ignorance is not bliss, it is no shield and wont protect you in the least against hostile action. Only knowledge can do that, knowledge gained from studying a potential weapon and learning to both detect it and defend against it.
I think you're not properly accounting for the perspective of the people who made the observations about the researchers when you place as much weight as you do on the line about antisocial behavior, and I think you're dismissing the possibility that it's a Reaper artifact from surface details before trying to determine whether it's actually plausible.
No I'm not. The official source for this Quest is the wiki, according to WoG.
This is what the wiki has to say about indoctrination:
The precise mechanics of the indoctrination effect are poorly understood. It is believed that the Reapers generate an electromagnetic field, waves of infrasound and ultrasound, or both in order to stimulate areas of a victim's brain and limbic system. The resulting effect varies depending on the intent of the Reaper: the victim may suffer headaches and hallucinations, have feelings of "being watched" or paranoia, or come to view the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signal, manifesting as voices within the victim's mind.
Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men.
But as Saren Arterius discovered during his research into indoctrination at the facility, there is a balance between control and usefulness. The more control Sovereign has over a person, the less capable they become. Saren realized that to keep his mind free of Sovereign's control, he had to make himself an invaluable resource. He believed that Sovereign would allow him a reprieve from indoctrination, because the Reaper needed Saren's mind intact to find the Conduit.
The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. Matriarch Benezia used her abilities to keep a 'haven' in her mind free of indoctrination, hoping for a chance to use it, but this meant she was effectively trapped in her own mind, watching in horror as she committed atrocities on Saren's orders. When mortally injured on Noveria, a despairing Benezia refused Shepard's offer of help and chose to die, saying "I am not myself, I never will be again."
"Researchers at the Sikel site were selected for psychological stability and loyalty before any other qualifications," says Durrahe, letting you sarcasm slide off him like water. "The artifact induced severely antisocial behavior. The researchers banded together and attempted to seize their station. By the time Lystheni irregulars seized control of the platform, the researchers were in the process of attempting to overload its power core. In interrogations, they were lucid, but intractably hostile. They voiced a noted distaste for the Dalatrass's agenda and authority where before they had been among her most loyal servants. It had all of the trappings of an ideologically anarchist revolt, but in individuals with no history of such beliefs."
Obviously different both in medium and effect.
Indoctrination always seems to end in severe, permanent mental damage, with the only thing retarding that process being Reaper intervention.
These guys are mentally intact.
Externally, the effects of indoctrination can certainly look pretty antisocial. In Mass Effect 1 on Virmire (hah), there's a Salarian in a cell named Menos Avot who was a member of Kirrahe's STG unit. If we removed his knowledge about the experiments he was undergoing and his loyalty to Kirrahe and, by extension, to Shepard, so that he'd have less incentive to explain what he's experienced and is experiencing, I'd likely classify him as antisocial.
And you'd be wrong.
Diagnoses like antisocial behavior are never made in isolation; you don't pick one symptom and wave it about.
The early symptoms of indoctrination can look like schizophrenia with paranoid ideation, or PTSD, which has a different clinical presentation.
Kenson was trying to override the power to the drives to stop the asteroid that was going to crack the Alpha Relay, delaying the Reapers.
It was less suicide and more a low-probability attempt at stopping Shepard , just in case Shepard had been lying about disabling shit.
As for Rana Thanoptis, we don't actually know the circumstances of her death.
Was she simply suffering from PTSD? How did she fall into custody after killing military officers?
I'll give you that the sequence of events could use elaboration.
But I'm going with GM intent here; if they say they were attempting to blow the station and were still lucid, the GM is obviously not trying to call up the classic manifestation of Reaper indoctrination exposure.
The Reapers fight wars every fifty thousand years or so; the one against the Protheans apparently lasted several hundred years.
And despite that, we are counting Reaper artifacts from canon on the fingers of one hand.
In a volume of space constituting much of the known galaxy, inhabited by hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of spacefaring sapients.
Consider exactly how much identifiable shit an Earthborne army leaves behind.
We are still finding WW2 bombs in Europe.
The Reapers really don't leave anything behind.
We're operating on different viewpoints here. What if mind control itself is so fundamentally toxic to our social structure that its very presence results in the collapse of society.
What if failing to execute the lystheni ex-dalatrass so enrages our voters that they stage a coup and throw us out of office?
What if the quarians are so pissed at being spied on that they ragequit in the middle of a war?
What if our army is so annoyed at having been kept out of the action that they overthrow us for someone who will prioritize the army more?
I see no reason to worry about hypotheticals with no supporting evidence.
To clarify again: I do not think that Poptart would do this but the Reapers, the Leviathan and the Thorian don't give a damn about Civilization as we define it. They could quite happily create and employ weapons that would our send our culture into a horrifying civil war if we even proposed creating them.
If you think the GM won't do this, then why bring it up?
Our population certainly are going to approve of efforts to DEFEND against such weapons, which means understanding how they work.
For a reallife analogue, you can't study how to defend against or treat chemical weapon injury without creating some in a lab.
Except for the bit where their leadership went totally, insanely, stupid. Hopefully it was due to direct exposure. If not, they went nuts just because of the possibilities of what it offered. Sorry if I don't think such a thing is safe in anybody's hands.
Stupidity does not require alien intervention by undead space gods.
Look at the former Virmirean Prime Minister, if you have any doubts to that effect.
And frankly, we have more than enough means to kill ourselves and everyone on the planet already.
Indoctrination is a relatively miniscule threat in a world where the technology to bombard a world with several hundred ton kinetic missiles is in the hands of any civilian company that makes small ships.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Apr 11, 2018 at 2:36 PM, finished with 208 posts and 88 votes.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[X] Continue full experimentation. While the Lystheni's direction of research was utter madness, they weren't wrong about the sheer potential of this artifact. If it can be invented once, it can be invented again -- and you'd like to know if there's a countermeasure. Authorize a full and proper team, and tell them to get you answers.
[X]Plan Sunshine
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] All Lystheni military assets placed under your command.
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister).
--[X] Full lystheni intelligence records
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (claim the LBZ).
--[X] Claim all Lystheni research sites. Allow joint access to vetted lystheni scientists on condition of full data disclosure.
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies OR the FDO).
[X][SISTER] Imprisonment. People in favor of the death penalty would object to this one, but those against would love it, so it comes out to as popular.
[X][DAD] Imprison him in Virmirean space. More proportional to anything he's actually done, and Shereel asked that he live, so it's not a hard concession.
[X] Write-In: Super limited experiments. Perform ONE course of experiments, with short exposure of a small number of volunteer subjects, using every sensor available to see if we can detect the mind-affecting mechanism. Run every known form of brain scan on the volunteers to see if we can spot signs of those who have been affected by every means, OTHER than simply monitoring their behavior. If we learn anything, put it on ice and figure out what to do next. If we can't detect the mind control process and can't detect signs of it in victims, throw it into the sun.
[X] Fire it into the sun. Durrahe has the right of it. Whatever mad idea the Precursors had in mind when they engineered it, you can't think of any value to be had in learning how to implant anarchist ideology. Hell, any ideology. Despite how Lissa occasionally worries about you, you are not an autocrat, and you certainly have no interest in this madness.
[X] Write -In Put in a 'Black Box' and don't open it for another 100 years. One day we'll have the technology and brains to maybe understand the world better and really look into what the principles of this thing. An then maybe we can find alternative uses for this technology. But for now it's simply too dangerous in an era where War with the Racchni is at our door step. Future Prime Ministers may reverse this order before the 100 year mark and begin experimentation but it should be made clear to them the risks this research has. It should NOT be made for political points it should be made as part of very real emergency that cannot be assauged without conventional Diplomatic, Inteligence, and Military avenues.
[X] Continue limited experiments. With exposure trajectories already charted for you by the Dalatrasses' sprint to fathom the bottom of sapient morality, you have what you need to ethically study this thing. Of course, the prior experiments also show the dangers of the artifact, so you'd best tread carefully.
[X] Put it on ice. This thing is dangerous to study even with detailed notes on its effects, but its principles show promise. It's likely that you simply don't have the technology to productively study it at this point, but you can release the research notes and wait for them to click for somebody. You can always revisit experiments later if a promising avenue of research crops up.
Won't lie, throwing-it-in-the-star™ would be preferable, Out-of-universe we know that Reapers are nasty (and hellava successful!) subverters I'd prefer we have at least LOOKED at something resembling indoctrination.
In-universe well, in real life even atrocious acts of science after in future did give us some benefits and chance to advance .. same applies in this scenario: • It has useful information, something that MIGHT help in the future. Throwing it away is the same as with Genophage cure: immoral.
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