Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

[Simon_Jester]

Why would you let yourself be influenced by such a summary?

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Because I strongly resent blatantly biased and unfair attempts to manipulate me by characterizing Plan Six In One as perfect and pure while Plan Half Dozen In The Other is entirely stupid and evil.

My desire to rebel against people trying to pull that shit is stronger than any other desire I feel regarding the two plans at the moment.

But as to my reasoning, here are Hammertime's concessions. Keep in mind that we've learned that any concessions not on this list will be consider non-negotiable by the MC.
--[] Allow Lystheni citizens not involved in espionage operations to return to Lystheni space.
We aren't holding any non-agent Lystheni hostage. Therefore this does nothing.
--[] Allow Lystheni to retain claimed systems.
This is just repeating threatening to declare war if they don't do what we want.
--[] Return Lystheni equipment in disassembled and sanitized manner so they may be rebuilt.
This is the only real "concession", but the Lystheni would only value it as scrap.

It doesn't even de-escalate our border situation which, according to the update, is the very first thing that the Lysenthi want. It has no non-violent mechanism to ensure their continued co-operation after the deal is stuck. The only plausible conclusion is that the peace deal is intended to fail, and that we will use that as a casus belli to destroy the Lysenthi.

Although I guess that isn't your point is it? If I had paid more attention, I'd have realized that you weren't saying that you didn't see differences between the two plans, only that the differences were pointless since they both demand the release of hostages.

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Okay, see, next time, LEAD WITH THAT STUFF. Because everything you just said only barely repairs the active damage you did to my own interest in "Damocles" by trying to promote it the way you did earlier.

 

[Spacegnom]

Guaranteeing Lystheni independence is a complete deal-breaker for me. Guaranteeing their independence basically binds us to them and turns us into their meat shield against the Citadel. We don't know anything about these people, we can't trust them to give a proper justification and, honestly, there's VERY little they can say that will make me willing to fight the Citadel on their behalf after all the shit they pulled.

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I agree they would have to prove very useful as a result of these negotiations for me to make that concession to them. But, I think we should at least take that option into the negotiations with us.

 

[MTB]

For a polity that small, the espionage operatives we're holding is a significant portion of their skilled espionage manpower, and is thus worth a lot to them.

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What for? We know them, and we are the only possible target for active agents.

 

[rdc30]

I agree they would have to prove very useful as a result of these negotiations for me to make that concession to them. But, I think we should at least take that option into the negotiations with us.

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They have done less than nothing for us. In fact, they have been actively undermining our sovereignty and probably secretly supporting the campaign to ruin our ties with the Citadel. They kidnap our people and they break our treaties they themselves proposed to us in the first place.

Paying them ransom for their aggression is already more than I'd like, but basically becoming their shield against aggression while they give us literally nothing in return that they haven't originally stole from us in the first place is just unacceptable to me.

 

[MTB]

Because I strongly resent blatantly biased and unfair attempts to manipulate me by characterizing Plan Six In One as perfect and pure while Plan Half Dozen In The Other is entirely stupid and evil.

My desire to rebel against people trying to pull that shit is stronger than any other desire I feel regarding the two plans at the moment.

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That's understable, human and makes you easiliy manipulable. Decide using reason, not gut reactions.

 

[rdc30]

--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (basically civilian Marshall Plan by Virmirean companies).
--[X] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).

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Uh, how are these two any different?

 

[kelgar04]

What for? We know them, and we are the only possible target for active agents.

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True but it takes time and money to train those guys to do there job they also all represents insight into how they work they will want them back ASAP I won't be surprised if they have some guys looking into getting them out

 

[Shaseyu]

Both leading plans are basically demands of their unconditional surrender in all but name.
Damocles at least has the decency to offer them money in exchange of it.
Still, in the Lystheni's place I would reject it as a sham and not honest negotiations.

New plan:
[X] Don't bother with talking. Just kill the Dalatrass. You know you want it.

 

[uju32]

Guaranteeing Lystheni independence is a complete deal-breaker for me. Guaranteeing their independence basically binds us to them and turns us into their meat shield against the Citadel. We don't know anything about these people, we can't trust them to give a proper justification and, honestly, there's VERY little they can say that will make me willing to fight the Citadel on their behalf after all the shit they pulled.

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The GM asked us for our shopping list. Things we might consider, depending on their story.It doesn't mean it's on our final list.
And it's not like it's in our interests to allow the Citadel to operate here; with the only entry points into Sentry Omega under our control, they need our permission to come here anyway.

This is a reminder: the Citadel isn't especially interested in penny-ante polities, whatever the lystheni might think.

And frankly, you need to remember that salarians live around forty years. The original generation that fled the Citadel, and entered Sentry Omega before Virmire was properly colonized, are almost certainly dead, along with whatever crimes they were running for, and the next generation are closing in on death. We're going to be dealing with their grandchildren at a minimum by the time the war is over.

What for? We know them, and we are the only possible target for active agents.

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For training new operatives. For analysing reports based on their field experience.
For doing whatever their fulltime job is when they aren't playing Johnny English.
Not a single lystheni we've met isn't performing two or three jobs; their own naval head buys raw materials personally.

 

[Spacegnom]

They have done less than nothing for us. In fact, they have been actively undermining our sovereignty and probably secretly supporting the campaign to ruin our ties with the Citadel. They kidnap our people and they break our treaties they themselves proposed to us in the first place.

Paying them ransom for their aggression is already more than I'd like, but basically becoming their shield against aggression while they give us literally nothing in return that they haven't originally stole from us in the first place is just unacceptable to me.

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But, we don't know yet what they will do for us at the end of these negotiations. All I'm saying is we should give our future selves the chance to play that card if the negotiations prove fruitful.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Seeing a bit too much hostility here, folks. Tone it down.

 

[uju32]

Uh, how are these two any different?

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Money is fungible, and can be diverted into dual use raw materials or private projects.
Mine suggests direct investment into civilian infrastructure, which we can keep better track of.

 

[rdc30]

The GM asked us for our shopping list. Things we might consider, depending on their story.
It doesn't mean it's on our final list.
And it's not like it's in our interests to allow the Citadel to operate here; with the only entry points into Sentry Omega under our control, they

This is a reminder: the Citadel isn't especially interested in penny-ante polities, whatever the lystheni might think.

And frankly, you need to remember that salarians live around forty years. The original generation that fled the Citadel, and entered Sentry Omega before Virmire was properly colonized, are almost certainly dead, along with whatever crimes they were running for, and the next generation are closing in on death. We're going to be dealing with their grandchildren at a minimum by the time the war is over.

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The problem is that we are deciding to enter into that agreement NOW. We don't have time to see what they can do for us or get the actual picture of what is really going on.

Money is fungible, and can be diverted into dual use raw materials or private projects.
Mine suggests direct investment into civilian infrastructure, which we can keep better track of.

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Investing in the civilian sector just means they take whatever money they were already putting into those and using it on their military. At the end of the day, they will still get more cash for stuff they can use to keep undermining us.

 

[Rakuhn]

Because I strongly resent blatantly biased and unfair attempts to manipulate me by characterizing Plan Six In One as perfect and pure while Plan Half Dozen In The Other is entirely stupid and evil.

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Ahh. That would explain things. For the record, I don't consider Hammertime to be stupid or evil, nor did I intend my message to be perceived as such.

I consider spiking the peace process and proceeding immediately to war is a perfectly valid move, and it is one that nations throughout our history have used to great effect. It may not be the "moral" decision, but it can be the much smarter decision in the long run if you believe that it is impossible to ever trust the other party and that you'd rather fight them at a time of your choosing rather than theirs.

 

[uju32]

The problem is that we are deciding to enter into that agreement NOW. We don't have time to see what they can do for us or get the actual picture of what is really going on.

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No we aren't.
I quote:

Fair point.
Hey, @uju32, to clarify, this vote is about you deciding what you are ultimately prepared to accept or demand, and what is simply off the table. You're determining your shopping list, in other words. if it's something you'd be prepared to concede, put it in concessions.

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Word of GM.

Investing in the civilian sector just means they take whatever money they were already putting into those and using it on their military. At the end of the day, they will still get more cash for stuff they can use to keep undermining us.

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With what population? They have less than ten million people according to intelligence estimates, possibly considerably less.
That means even at maximum military mobilization of around 10%, they'd only be able to put 100k into their military.
ALL their military, ground and space.

For comparison, the 3RWF is several hundred thousand people, and it's at about 35% strength. Our marines number 350k.
Our entire ground army is 400 million, 6.7% of our current population.
Money is not the only constraint on military mobilization.

 

[Chronic]

[X] Plan Damocles

 

[rdc30]

No we aren't.
I quote:

Word of GM.

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No, what I'm saying that is that next update, we will be in literally no different position than we are right now. Any information they give us is unverifiable and should not be used to justify a military commitment that antagonizes the Citadel. Next update, we have to sign a treaty with what information we have right now and that treaty is binding in the future.

With what population? They have less than ten million people according to intelligence estimates, possibly considerably less.
That means even at maximum military mobilization of around 10%, they'd only be able to put 100k into their military.
ALL their military, ground and space.

For comparison, the 3RWF is several hundred thousand people, and it's at about 35% strength. Our marines number 350k.
Our entire ground army is 400 million, 6.7% of our current population.
Money is not the only constraint on military mobilization.

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Of course they can't match us in numbers, but we'd still be giving them money to boost their capabilities. There's plenty of other ways they can fuck with us, as they have already shown.

 

[Rakuhn]

No, what I'm saying that is that next update, we will be in literally no different position than we are right now. Any information they give us is unverifiable and should not be used to justify a military commitment that antagonizes the Citadel. Next update, we have to sign a treaty with what information we have right now and that treaty is binding in the future.

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That is a benefit though. If they lie to us, then that means that our agreement was forged on false pretenses and we can back out of it without international condemnation.

 

[uju32]

No, what I'm saying that is that next update, we will be in literally no different position than we are right now. Any information they give us is unverifiable and should not be used to justify a military commitment that antagonizes the Citadel. Next update, we have to sign a treaty with what information we have right now and that treaty is binding in the future.

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This isn't true.
You need to go re-read the GM's clarifications on this subject.

Next update is going to see the Lystheni presenting their demands, and nothing more. You're presenting nothing. This is the list Mira has in mind as she walks in the door. The only thing that might come up is the civilian release precondition, if it's in the winning plan. You get to decide how to format the rest of the list once you hear what the Lystheni are asking. You can go ahead and commit yourself to an action plan before gaining that information, though, if you really want. I'll have fun writing that.

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That is very difficult to estimate even when you haven't been completely shut out of of their culture. At a guess, there's a limit to how much they can do with the population disparity at play and the level of political capital to maintain a long deployment you have, although maintaining an expeditionary force is, as mentioned, going to be tricky even without the Lystheni's input.

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You are defining what Mira has decided she wants. That is meaningful information for me in how I write the update and how Mira conducts herself. For instance, if the first words out of the Dalatrass's lips are, "we demand Virmirean protection," and that's a concession you're prepared to make, Mira's reply, by virtue of not being an immediate rejection, will indicate that she is prepared to consider it under some circumstances, thereby giving the Dalatrass information. Furthermore, given that one of the options is explicitly noted as a precondition to further negotiations, that is crucial information, so if you don't want to walk away or else look toothless if the Lystheni refuse to release your people, you may want not to include that option.

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Relevant is bolded.

Of course they can't match us in numbers, but we'd still be giving them money to boost their capabilities. There's plenty of other ways they can fuck with us, as they have already shown.

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There is only so much force, military, diplomatic, espionage or otherwise, you can afford to maintain on a small population, regardless of money.

Israel is a rich country. It can't build or maintain nuclear carriers, or superfighters. It does not have the surplus trained manpower to do these things without collapsing its economy, and even much of it's current capability is dependent on implicit guarantees from foreign nations. There is only so much of a country's population that can be diverted from economic pursuits without collapse.

Furthermore, the eventual aim is to West Germany the lystheni if at all possible. To convert, corrupt and steal their children right out from under their current government's ideology if it's possible. That requires seducing them away with prosperity. That's why the monitoring network is accompanied by investment in civilian infrastructure that will be clearly marked as being built by Virmireans working with lystheni. Why while we press for better deals, we aren't going to let our merchants simply loot the place.

We do not need a festering sewer on our border; that's just setting up trouble for the future.

 

[Wiadi]

Fairly significant. As noted in the Status Screen, due to decades of neglect born of lack of necessity, your Army cannot even reliably deploy beyond Virmire. It was not intended to at founding, and improving it is an unjustifiable expense when your navy still needs fixing. So deploying like this involves seconded naval transports and logistics, with an army not designed for foreign deployments.

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Thanks for clarifying. In that case...

But most importantly- if we can't actually sustain a few million man expedition in our own cluster... we need to reevaluate and fix that shit pronto, that's a failure of doctrine and organization in its own right- and I'm going to assume our various experts in things military wouldn't have brought up the issues occupying Lystheni space before shit got this far. We're talking a small fraction of our military for the most ludicrous of occupations over the shortest distances in interstellar terms our military is liable to see ever. If we can't make this work than we need to know what to do in order to change that not write off war and occupation as too costly as a result.

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As I expected, while we are capable of performing such an expedition (and despite your strawman, I never claimed otherwise), it would require meaningful effort which we cannot necessarily afford - in particular, the seconded naval elements would come at direct cost to our ongoing war effort against the Rachni. You are free to assess this as a failing of our army - indeed, I'm inclined to agree - but as Poptart points out that is simply not our highest priority in terms of "things to fix."

 

[rdc30]

This isn't true.
You need to go re-read the GM's clarifications on this subject.

Relevant is bolded.

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The GM has already stated that much of this vote is for narrative reasons. The only practical difference next update will be Lystheni demands. They won't even reveal their history unless we agree to a treaty first, because it is a demand and the protection is a concession. They would be stupid to reveal information before the concession is binding. There's also basically nothing they can offer that we can justify a binding protection treaty anyway. Their military commit is negligible as you yourself stated and would just give them even more avenues to sabotage us.

There is only so much force, military, diplomatic, espionage or otherwise, you can afford to maintain on a small population, regardless of money.

Israel is a rich country. It can't build or maintain nuclear carriers, or superfighters. It does not have the surplus trained manpower to do these things without collapsing its economy, and even much of it's current capability is dependent on implicit guarantees from foreign nations. There is only so much of a country's population that can be diverted from economic pursuits without collapse.

Furthermore, the eventual aim is to West Germany the lystheni if at all possible. To convert, corrupt and steal their children right out from under their current government's ideology if it's possible. That requires seducing them away with prosperity. That's why the monitoring network is accompanied by investment in civilian infrastructure that will be clearly marked as being built by Virmireans working with lystheni. Why while we press for better deals, we aren't going to let our merchants simply loot the place.

We do not need a festering sewer on our border; that's just setting up trouble for the future.

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The effectiveness of 'hearts and minds' is dubious. There's really no indication that giving aid confers leverage over the receiving government.

 

[kelgar04]

Furthermore, the eventual aim is to West Germany the lystheni if at all possible. To convert, corrupt and steal their children right out from under their current government's ideology if it's possible. That requires seducing them away with prosperity. That's why the monitoring network is accompanied by investment in civilian infrastructure that will be clearly marked as being built by Virmireans working with lystheni. Why while we press for better deals, we aren't going to let our merchants simply loot the place.

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I'm not sure how realistic that goal is at the moment until we actually know anything beyond that they stole our stuff, their super paranoid and they are a cult.

 

[Spacegnom]

@PoptartProdigy Are the negotiations only gonna last the next update? Or, will the negotiations go on for X rounds/updates?

 

[uju32]

The GM has already stated that much of this vote is for narrative reasons. The only practical difference next update will be Lystheni demands. They won't even reveal their history unless we agree to a treaty first, because it is a demand and the protection is a concession. They would be stupid to reveal information before the concession is binding. There's also basically nothing they can offer that we can justify a binding protection treaty anyway. Their military commit is negligible as you yourself stated and would just give them even more avenues to sabotage us.

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You're ignoring explicit WoG.

You are defining what Mira has decided she wants. That is meaningful information for me in how I write the update and how Mira conducts herself. For instance, if the first words out of the Dalatrass's lips are, "we demand Virmirean protection," and that's a concession you're prepared to make, Mira's reply, by virtue of not being an immediate rejection, will indicate that she is prepared to consider it under some circumstances, thereby giving the Dalatrass information. Furthermore, given that one of the options is explicitly noted as a precondition to further negotiations, that is crucial information, so if you don't want to walk away or else look toothless if the Lystheni refuse to release your people, you may want not to include that option.

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I will again suggest rereading the GM's comments on this.

The effectiveness of 'hearts and minds' is dubious. There's really no indication that giving aid confers leverage over the receiving government.

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West Germany. South Korea. Most of Western Europe.
Sierra Leone(that's mostly a UK thing, not US).

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy Are the negotiations only gonna last the next update? Or, will the negotiations go on for X rounds/updates?

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The latter.