CrimsonKnight
Lurking in a thread near you
[X] Plan Damocles
-
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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
- Location
- Boston
[X] Plan Damocles
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
-[X]Demands
--[X] The immediate release of Virmirean merchants from Lystheni territory (civilians released as a precondition of continued negotiations).
--[X] Full disclosure of Lystheni history and society, including their origins and the nature of their animosity towards the Citadel (Lystheni forced to stop being cagey).
--[X] The resumption of trade, this time on Virmirean terms (resumed trade relations with an open market, economically subordinating the Lystheni to you and proving far more profitable than the previous, protectionist agreement).
--[X] Full Lystheni commitment to the Rachni War effort (all Lystheni military assets placed under your command).
--[X] Full disclosure and surrender of the stations in Sikel in violation of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty (get the artifacts and the stations on which they sit, along with experimental records).
--[X] A Lystheni-funded network of your best observation posts throughout Lystheni space (become Big Sister on the Lystheni's dime).
-[X] Leverage
--[X] A continued complete trade embargo (what it says).
--[X] The dissolution of the Virmire-Lystheni Border Treaty and a complete blockade of Lystheni space (claim the LBZ and put defense platforms in every system to make sure that nothing passes).
--[X] War (make your implicit threat explicit).
-[X] Concessions
--[X] A general withdrawal of military forces (stand down the 3rd RWF).
--[X] The release of captured Lystheni intelligence operatives in Virmirean space (give back their spies).
read what said, and that's just stupid, as the only viable vote then is all the options, with nothing excluded. which results in the same vote/plan down the line, just forwarded one post forward.
that makes no sense what so ever.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Damocles
Looks good, Uju. But is there any particular reason you clarified the space window, rather than just window? It cracked me up.
Looks good, Uju. But is there any particular reason you clarified the space window, rather than just window? It cracked me up.
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- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
[X] Plan Damocles
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ease back on the hostility, folks.
Fairly significant. As noted in the Status Screen, due to decades of neglect born of lack of necessity, your Army cannot even reliably deploy beyond Virmire. It was not intended to at founding, and improving it is an unjustifiable expense when your navy still needs fixing. So deploying like this involves seconded naval transports and logistics, with an army not designed for foreign deployments.
Your naval strength estimate hasn't changed, if that's what you're asking.
Next update is going to see the Lystheni presenting their demands, and nothing more. You're presenting nothing. This is the list Mira has in mind as she walks in the door. The only thing that might come up is the civilian release precondition, if it's in the winning plan. You get to decide how to format the rest of the list once you hear what the Lystheni are asking. You can go ahead and commit yourself to an action plan before gaining that information, though, if you really want. I'll have fun writing that.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I was more thinking along the lines of terror campaign, pirate activity and (also naval) suicide runs.
- Location
- Central Europe
So, if we had something like this in mind:
.. would we need to include the corresponding concessions in the winning plan now? Or, could we still come back to this later in the negotiations without including it now?
exactly, making this whole vote completely pointless, given the only real option at this point is to take ALL the options. There is no sane other choice, all the options must remain on the table until the actual negotiation starts. there is no need for a plan nor any need for player imput needed at this point.
I cannot help but feel this vote was rather pointless.
kelgar04
Knight Watcher
- Location
- Here and no were
So is this vote us outlining what we want before we go into the meeting and what we will do to achieve it then?
I don't think it's terminal solutions. At most, we're going to deprive them of all space assets and keep them grounded to one world, space is a big place. Hopefully, this world will be devoid of any natural resources that can be used to start a space program. Ideally, a natural prison world in a star system like Alcatraz from which there is no escape. We will continue to monitor their movements from space of course. I don't think anyone wants to start a reeducation program - waste of time and money.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That is very difficult to estimate even when you haven't been completely shut out of of their culture. At a guess, there's a limit to how much they can do with the population disparity at play and the level of political capital to maintain a long deployment you have, although maintaining an expeditionary force is, as mentioned, going to be tricky even without the Lystheni's input.
Fair point.
Hey, @uju32, to clarify, this vote is about you deciding what you are ultimately prepared to accept or demand, and what is simply off the table. You're determining your shopping list, in other words. if it's something you'd be prepared to concede, put it in concessions.
Not so:
You are defining what Mira has decided she wants. That is meaningful information for me in how I write the update and how Mira conducts herself. For instance, if the first words out of the Dalatrass's lips are, "we demand Virmirean protection," and that's a concession you're prepared to make, Mira's reply, by virtue of not being an immediate rejection, will indicate that she is prepared to consider it under some circumstances, thereby giving the Dalatrass information. Furthermore, given that one of the options is explicitly noted as a precondition to further negotiations, that is crucial information, so if you don't want to walk away or else look toothless if the Lystheni refuse to release your people, you may want not to include that option.
Voting for everything is certainly a valid option, but it does means that you might end up seeing Mira negotiating fervently for something you do not in fact want.
kelgar04
Knight Watcher
- Location
- Here and no were
Be very careful a short victorious war is one of the more dangerous of human illusions.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@PoptartProdigy ... The trouble is, if we expect the Dalatrass to be capable of surprising us with her demands, and it would be folly of us not to expect that, how Mira reacts isn't just a question of the list of things Mira MIGHT be willing to give the Lystheni.
We can, with a little difficulty, agree on what we want from the Lystheni. We can agree on what sticks we're willing to threaten with, and what carrots we're willing to offer in principle under at least SOME conditions.
But we cannot possibly make a sane attempt to precommit to which carrots we're willing to give out, without talking about the relationship between which of those carrots we give out, and which concessions the Lystheni make.
For example, if the Lystheni ask to simply join Virmire society (unlikely but let's roll with it), we'd want to make a certain set of conditions. Like "okay, but we demand that you do XYZ, allow us to sweep all your stuff for traps and bugs, et cetera." If the Lystheni ask for access to a certain planet, we'd be willing to grant it under different conditions. And so on.
On the other side of the equation, if the Lystheni reveal they have a secret supernova weapon pointed at Virmire's sun, it would significantly change the carrot/stick calculations and Mira's list of "things I am willing to do" would be apt to evolve very rapidly in one way or another.
The price the Lystheni have to pay is inherently tied up in the nature of what they want. Just as the price we have to pay is tied up with what we want.
...
So it's a bit unclear to me how we can accurately represent Mira's mindset going into these negotiations as a laundry list of things she'd purely hypothetically be willing to concede to the Lystheni, without the context of when or why she'd make those concessions.
EDIT:
Another problem is that the Lystheni have so many terminal break points it's hard to figure out a plan that gives us a workable modus vivendi with them without crossing one or more of those break points.
I mean, just telling us why they're even here is a terminal break point for them, which is just about unprecedented in the history of Earthly nations and in most of science fiction, for example. How do you negotiate peaceful coexistence with someone who won't even answer the question "so, what are you guys up to with all this stuff that looks like it miiiiight be pointed at the back of our heads during our war for survival?"
All in all, they're kind of terrible neighbors, and their most firmly defended prerogative (total secrecy) makes it very hard to trust them to keep up their side of a bargain. If they'd just unbend enough that we could be reasonably confident they were dealing with us in good faith, there'd be a lot more room for coexistence.
Can they do that? I don't know. They seem to have been an isolated commune of fanatics for so long that it's interfering with their ability to think coherently about the outside galaxy and how to interact with it.
[Which incidentally we may want to view as a cautionary tale ourselves]
We can, with a little difficulty, agree on what we want from the Lystheni. We can agree on what sticks we're willing to threaten with, and what carrots we're willing to offer in principle under at least SOME conditions.
But we cannot possibly make a sane attempt to precommit to which carrots we're willing to give out, without talking about the relationship between which of those carrots we give out, and which concessions the Lystheni make.
For example, if the Lystheni ask to simply join Virmire society (unlikely but let's roll with it), we'd want to make a certain set of conditions. Like "okay, but we demand that you do XYZ, allow us to sweep all your stuff for traps and bugs, et cetera." If the Lystheni ask for access to a certain planet, we'd be willing to grant it under different conditions. And so on.
On the other side of the equation, if the Lystheni reveal they have a secret supernova weapon pointed at Virmire's sun, it would significantly change the carrot/stick calculations and Mira's list of "things I am willing to do" would be apt to evolve very rapidly in one way or another.
The price the Lystheni have to pay is inherently tied up in the nature of what they want. Just as the price we have to pay is tied up with what we want.
...
So it's a bit unclear to me how we can accurately represent Mira's mindset going into these negotiations as a laundry list of things she'd purely hypothetically be willing to concede to the Lystheni, without the context of when or why she'd make those concessions.
EDIT:
Another problem is that the Lystheni have so many terminal break points it's hard to figure out a plan that gives us a workable modus vivendi with them without crossing one or more of those break points.
I mean, just telling us why they're even here is a terminal break point for them, which is just about unprecedented in the history of Earthly nations and in most of science fiction, for example. How do you negotiate peaceful coexistence with someone who won't even answer the question "so, what are you guys up to with all this stuff that looks like it miiiiight be pointed at the back of our heads during our war for survival?"
All in all, they're kind of terrible neighbors, and their most firmly defended prerogative (total secrecy) makes it very hard to trust them to keep up their side of a bargain. If they'd just unbend enough that we could be reasonably confident they were dealing with us in good faith, there'd be a lot more room for coexistence.
Can they do that? I don't know. They seem to have been an isolated commune of fanatics for so long that it's interfering with their ability to think coherently about the outside galaxy and how to interact with it.
[Which incidentally we may want to view as a cautionary tale ourselves]
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- Location
- Canada
Inserted tally
@uju32
Based on PoptartProdigy's clarification of how concessions word, might I suggest adding
--[ ] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
to your plan, as it is something you were already willing to consider if they meet the rest of your demands?
I'd also suggest adding
--[ ] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
under the assumption that we can use it to bargain for a renegotiated trade agreement. We want the trade agreement mostly for the economic clout, not the income. If they stop abiding by our agreement in the future, we can cut off the funds that they'd have been relying on to purchase our products (after having lost their domestic industry), and would almost immediately face economic collapse.
Based on PoptartProdigy's clarification of how concessions word, might I suggest adding
--[ ] A commitment to maintaining the sovereignty of the Lystheni state as a priority of Virmirean foreign policy (guarantee the Lystheni's independence).
to your plan, as it is something you were already willing to consider if they meet the rest of your demands?
I'd also suggest adding
--[ ] Economic support of Lystheni interests, working towards a common understanding and cooperation (pay them).
under the assumption that we can use it to bargain for a renegotiated trade agreement. We want the trade agreement mostly for the economic clout, not the income. If they stop abiding by our agreement in the future, we can cut off the funds that they'd have been relying on to purchase our products (after having lost their domestic industry), and would almost immediately face economic collapse.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X] Plan Damocles
Honestly this feels like it gets as close as possible to "ideal result" in this, if I may use the words of Udina, political shitstorm.
Honestly this feels like it gets as close as possible to "ideal result" in this, if I may use the words of Udina, political shitstorm.
We are not here to help them. We are not here to cut a deal or to negotiate a settlement. We are here to deliver an ultimatum. (And most likely declare war.)
- Location
- Central Europe
This is not about the ultimatum. This about what options we want to take with us into the negotiations.
Like uju explained in the reasoning for his plan. IF we can come to an agreement with the Lystheni (Spy-satellites, warships, artifacts, trade,...) then guaranteeing their independence and offering a 'marshall plan' might acutally beneficial to us.
Should the Dalatrass not show any signs of acceding to our demands, than we will never bring those up.
This is not what we open up with. This is what we keep in our backpocket to sweeten the deal at the end of successful negotiations.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Well I know what I want and what I'm willing to conceed, but making plans is hard on phone and also I'm busy, but nobody else made a plan that matches :c
Short form, so ya'll can tell me if there's any shared interest:
Concessions: Privileged trade, protection from Citadel, freedom to roam and expand while under our management
Demands: Full disclosure, Annexation
Threats: Full war, Orbital bombardment if neccessary (see below)
Do not demand to have Virmirian merchants freed. Instead declare that any of our civilians who are killed will be repaid in kind, magnified. Otherwise, we'll limit our war targets to obvious military threats and blockades. Alternatively, prisoner exchange, our merchants for their spies.
Short form, so ya'll can tell me if there's any shared interest:
Concessions: Privileged trade, protection from Citadel, freedom to roam and expand while under our management
Demands: Full disclosure, Annexation
Threats: Full war, Orbital bombardment if neccessary (see below)
Do not demand to have Virmirian merchants freed. Instead declare that any of our civilians who are killed will be repaid in kind, magnified. Otherwise, we'll limit our war targets to obvious military threats and blockades. Alternatively, prisoner exchange, our merchants for their spies.