Everyone have a reason, it's not really an excuse to break treaties - not if you want to keep good relationship.
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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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Having a reason doesn't make any difference, they brokje the treaty.
and yes on their own their activities aren';t that bad, but together they are really pushing things.
The Station is just the last straw.
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- Austria
Well, nnno, and they could ask for a specific permission and exemption I guess...but I get the feeling the facility and looted planet were the reason they are even in here.
If this was Lystheni Quest and we had a military power near us and we had what we wanted so close to us and yet technically under their thumb...well, we would definitely do it.
It is only bad because we know for a fact they always had the diplomatic option and we would react favourably.
They have no idea about our intentions and the like; from what they can see of us, we are quite pushy in our diplomacy. Which, coming from a militaty hegemon near you, is not the best news.
What do Lystheni know about us which would tell them that no, they would be better off with diplomacy and less paranoia? They cannot read the thread.
Well, again, "I really wanted it" is not really an excuse. They could ask, but they didn't, and so they reap what they sow.
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- Austria
Well by the same token we should just nod if Rannoch declares war on us because "we really wanted your shipbuilding data" is not really an excuse. We could ask, but we didn't, so we'd just be reaping what we've sown.
Like, the fact that they opened fire on our first contact team out of paranoia and yet we let this slide and still entered good faith diplomacy with them?
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- Mid-Atlantic
My main objection to this plan is that it locks down both our military options for years. Our military will be, in effect, too busy to sustain major operations, including war against the Lystheni should we desire to do that, and also including any emergency changes of plan against the rachni.
I don't agree.
It's implicitly a declaration of how seriously we take this "Yes, this is going to hurt us, but we're willing to take the pain.
Stop jerking us around; our patience has limits".
Sanctions to compel desired behavior are an established part of international diplomacy, dating at least as far back as US sanctions on Japan pre-WW2, to the international sanctions on apartheid SA, to the sanctions on Myanmar to that on Iran.
It sometimes fails, but it often works.
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- Mid-Atlantic
I think that this is only a small part of the problem.
If the Lystheni were a colony of, say, salarian Space Amish who were very open about who and what they are, I think we'd be much more tolerant. They'd still be unhelpful and not contributing to the war effort (because no tech and pacifism), they'd still not be doing what we say (Amish are fairly good at nonviolent resistance)... But we'd be able to convince ourselves they are innocent, in both the "innocent motivations" sense and the "committing no crimes" sense.
The Lystheni as they actually exist, by contrast, are behaving exactly as we would expect if they were concealing secret hostile motives or secret criminal intentions. Their paranoia and secrecy (traits we know of and that persist even when we don't fail our dice rolls) turn them into an unstable and potentially hostile, very unpredictable element in our rear area in the war against the rachni, where they would otherwise be much less so. And while they may be too inflexible to realize this, they really, really don't have any compelling right to be that oblivious to the result.
Sure. I think it would be stupid of them, since it goes against every possible cost/benefit analysis, but they have a right to demand recompenasation and even declare war.
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- Ural, Russia, Earth
Overview of our diplomatic interactions with the Lystheni:
Year 4: First Contact. We said we are independent colony (which, apparently, false), they didn't believe us and demanded our ship's surrender. We refused. They opened fire. We disabled them.
We explained the situation with the Rachni (which... quite hard to believe, I hope you agree). The Dalatrass apologised for her people.
Year 5: We tried to ask for the Lystheni's starcharts, but failed miserably, making unreasonable demands instead. The Lystheni refused.
Year 6: We demonstrated that the Rachni are actually exist and agressive. The Lystheni were impressed and gave us their almost full starcharts.
Year 7: The Lystheni suggested an exchange of embassies. We accepted.
Year 8: We suggested to open the trade. Look how it was formulated:
We also inserted our spies into our embassy.
Year 9: We asked them 'to reveal what they've been holding back about their presence here'. We failed miserably, making unreasonable demands instead. Again.
The Lystheni refused, curtailed our trade for a time and demanded to make SO4 a neutral system.
We refused and annexed SO4. The Lystheni demanded their own Neutral Zone. We agreed. The Lystheni let the trade continue.
We also found out the Lystheni use their embassy for extensive spying.
You know, looking at this I easily can see both Virmire honest attempts of good faith diplomacy, rejected because of the Lystheni's paranoia, and Virmire attempts to harass and exploite weaker neighbor, stemmed by the Lystheni's stubborn refusal to accept it.
And what they could contribute? Their fleet is still laughable.
One can argue that they do contribute to the common defense by not using their spy network to sabotage our economy and war efforts.
Year 4: First Contact. We said we are independent colony (which, apparently, false), they didn't believe us and demanded our ship's surrender. We refused. They opened fire. We disabled them.
We explained the situation with the Rachni (which... quite hard to believe, I hope you agree). The Dalatrass apologised for her people.
Year 5: We tried to ask for the Lystheni's starcharts, but failed miserably, making unreasonable demands instead. The Lystheni refused.
Year 6: We demonstrated that the Rachni are actually exist and agressive. The Lystheni were impressed and gave us their almost full starcharts.
Year 7: The Lystheni suggested an exchange of embassies. We accepted.
Year 8: We suggested to open the trade. Look how it was formulated:
The Dalatrass was not an idiot. She refused our suggestion and made her own, which was not as profitable for us, but still decent. We accepted.
We also inserted our spies into our embassy.
Year 9: We asked them 'to reveal what they've been holding back about their presence here'. We failed miserably, making unreasonable demands instead. Again.
The Lystheni refused, curtailed our trade for a time and demanded to make SO4 a neutral system.
We refused and annexed SO4. The Lystheni demanded their own Neutral Zone. We agreed. The Lystheni let the trade continue.
We also found out the Lystheni use their embassy for extensive spying.
You know, looking at this I easily can see both Virmire honest attempts of good faith diplomacy, rejected because of the Lystheni's paranoia, and Virmire attempts to harass and exploite weaker neighbor, stemmed by the Lystheni's stubborn refusal to accept it.
Truth be told, it was profitable for us too, and we are building warships too.
And what they could contribute? Their fleet is still laughable.
One can argue that they do contribute to the common defense by not using their spy network to sabotage our economy and war efforts.
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- Austria
That was a cool gesture of goodwill yes. Then again, what was the other option, keep killing them until they cannot shoot us?
And I am pretty sure that from their point of view we are behaving like a military/economic hegemon trying to dominate them and being not all that good at taking "no" for an answer.
Uh I guess? I am not sure declaration of war in retaliation for espionage is all that common - most declarations of war I can recall off the top of my head were about territorial disputes, real or imaginary. Alternatively, lives.
Or religion.
I mean....what is the example of war declared because of espionage you can name? I cannot recall such off the top of my head.
Shadowey problems tend to be solved either in shadows or via diplomacy - sanctions, pressuring them to back off their agents, stuff like this.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
Huh...well the infantry scale barriers are a must in the near future...
Would they give a bonus to figuring out the other scales of barrier too? I mean if we work from both the massive dreadnought
ones and the hyper small infantry scale ones, we should be able to meet somewhere in the middle?
I'm at least fairly sure at least one of the current plans doesn't call for attack, just sanctions and demands.
Stop taking advantage of our good faith and violating the agreement you lot pushed for in the first place.
I mean personally I'm in favour of just quickly ending the problem so we can spend more time focused on the Racchnai, who knows we may actually end up saving lives if the info on their work ethic is accurate.
Would they give a bonus to figuring out the other scales of barrier too? I mean if we work from both the massive dreadnought
ones and the hyper small infantry scale ones, we should be able to meet somewhere in the middle?
Isn't that what the current plan does?
I'm at least fairly sure at least one of the current plans doesn't call for attack, just sanctions and demands.
Stop taking advantage of our good faith and violating the agreement you lot pushed for in the first place.
I mean personally I'm in favour of just quickly ending the problem so we can spend more time focused on the Racchnai, who knows we may actually end up saving lives if the info on their work ethic is accurate.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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- Present
Unfortunately, the structure of our political system is far closer to the US than to any nation with multilateral parties. I can't see us avoiding a duopoly without either nerfing the Assembly into powerlessness or reforming it.
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- Austria
Nnnooo?
I am fairly certain I've seen calls for war - like this:
He said "at least one of the current plans doesn't call for attack, just sanctions and demands." not that none of the plans call for war. And there are plans that just call for sanctions.
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- Rockford, USA
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- They/Them
I'm soon gonna need to stop budgeting time to explaining Mira's political ideals to focus on other things, folks. Ask your questions if you have 'em.
Please do not pursue this train of thought in my thread.
To clarify: Mira is not under the delusion that parties are invincible and immortal, but rather the understanding that they are self-interested and incentivized to hold onto power rather than serve the people. Even your examples of early American parties (Federalist vs. Democratic-Republican...until the Federalists dissolve, the Democratic-Republicans split, and we have Democrats vs. Whigs...until the Whigs collapse and are replaced by the Republicans...) would not precisely endear her to parties, given the tendency of the leadership of collapsing parties to simply go on to form a new one and take up the same old struggle for dominance. To your latter point she'd say, "Of course they adapt to changing times, but that you think it is, 'for you,' is adorable." (Reminder: not me.)
Under Rule 2, calls for genocide are grounds for the mods to come into the thread. Therefore, they shall be excised from Mira's thought processes and given no consideration in offered votes. Write-ins to that effect will be deleted.
Please do not pursue this train of thought in my thread.
You do not have term limits. It is a potential problem. Remember, Mira doesn't see her current political system as the final evolution of the state she wants to see; it's something she came up with in three years, from an ideological standing start, explicitly as a way to spite subversive elements trying to create a dark mirror pf it under their control. She always knew it was going to be imperfect; she's not done.
I admit, I had to laugh at the Bull Moose Party being compared to any of those other options. Good one. :lol
To clarify: Mira is not under the delusion that parties are invincible and immortal, but rather the understanding that they are self-interested and incentivized to hold onto power rather than serve the people. Even your examples of early American parties (Federalist vs. Democratic-Republican...until the Federalists dissolve, the Democratic-Republicans split, and we have Democrats vs. Whigs...until the Whigs collapse and are replaced by the Republicans...) would not precisely endear her to parties, given the tendency of the leadership of collapsing parties to simply go on to form a new one and take up the same old struggle for dominance. To your latter point she'd say, "Of course they adapt to changing times, but that you think it is, 'for you,' is adorable." (Reminder: not me.)
Again, she doesn't see the current system as her final ideal. She fully expects it to be flawed. However, she lacks the centuries of poly-sci history you and I have, and thus cannot comfortably predict out of a textbook the likely failure modes of her decisions. She just knows that she's working from a standing start, in a stopgap measure motivated to block others more than any other immediate concerns. She always knew it was going to be imperfect. She isn't finished with it. She's just waiting to see how the failure modes crop up.
Mira's stance on the matter is that she could have -- and has, for over a decade of wartime -- tolerated any one or indeed many of those things. Unfortunately, taken together, they form an altogether too troubling picture. The central objection is that the Lystheni's actions as a collective build a narrative of consistent and unrepentant dealing in poor faith, and moves that look uncomfortably like a prelude to doing something unwise -- something unwise not exactly being a course of action unsupported by the Lystheni's established precedent on the matter.
Yes. After all, it was their plan.
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If we were the military hegemonistic power you seem to think they see us as then that would have been more than enough of an excuse to declare war and conquer them.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
And that's not the one I was talking about
Exactly
Also to apply natural selection, parties which do not aggressively attempt to grow and cling to power shortly will be replaced by parties that do.
Barring some external force which torpedoes them whenever they try that anyways.
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- South of North
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- Austria
And that's not the one I was talking about
Exactly
Well yes I am aware that uju's one is w/o war.
And that's not the one I was talking about
Exactly
With new revelations about the irrationality of the Lystheni i am kind of worried that they would resort to attacking us in return for us ripping out their agent network and economic sanctions. @uju32 's plan doesn't deploy the Quarians to our borders, so i feel it puts us at risk of the Lystheni trying to hit our colonies or even Virmire itself with weapons of mass-destruction.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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- Dancing on wires!
Well not everyone wants war...
I'll admit I'm certainly much more inclined towards going in...