Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

[uju32]

Fact of the matter is, they have a fleet with ten Dreadnoughts literally one jump away from our only defensive position. Unless you can give me another reason why they don't just take an hour or so to jump through our relay and smash through, then the only logical explanation is that they think we're stronger than we are, by a lot.

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Point of order:
This is a reaction fleet which they put together after our ping, pulling forces from everywhere available. It wasn't sitting in one place.
Citation:

And with a full quarian War Fleet rampaging through Rachni space far to the north, doesn't Hades Gamma, so far from the action and ordinarily host to a somewhat substantial garrison, seem like the perfect place from which to pull forces?
Apparently, the rachni thought so. Because when the 1st Raiding Fleet clears the relay, the garrison that your recon pulse detected has already been cut in half, and you have the advantage of numbers. There isn't even a dreadnought to oppose you.

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By all indications, the normal garrison fleets we had picketing our border systems are much smaller than this reaction fleet.
If half a garrison fleet does not get a dreadnought, then it makes a normal garrison at 1-2 dreads max.

There's ten dreadnoughts in the Hades Nexus according to the GM via Admiral Malan, but the Hades Nexus was an active war front.
There were six dreadnoughts in the Nubian Expanse, of which we destroyed five.

Dunno how many of those were there permanently, and how many were temporarily there from the Caleston Rift. As long as they held the Rift, they could send quick reinforcements to the Maroon Sea and Nubian Expanse if they had the ships. So the actual size of the permanent garrisons is something the GM will have to rule on.

 

[SAGrognard]

Alright, I will try to explain.
This is probably their reaction fleet. This is something militaries do. You have a 'fire brigade', a reaction force carefully NOT tied down to any front.
I make this assumption since they behave like a reaction force, jumping in when Beshkar attacked, then relay-to-relay for six jumps to deal with our main force.
Their job is to stop disasters happening in your controlled area, or at least oppose it.
As such it is verboten to send them off on the attack, else every front commander would grab them for her attack/counterattack.
So this -particular- fleet is unlikely to come at us.

Now reaction forces are of necessity amongst the strongest task groups a military has, else they can't do their job.
Other fleets are smaller of necessity. the one fighting 3RWF had six dreads.
Sot the question the Rachni have to ask themselves is :
'Can the Virmire queen kill a six-dread fleet?'

 

[Alliterate]

Alright, I will try to explain.
This is probably their reaction fleet. This is something militaries do. You have a 'fire brigade', a reaction force carefully NOT tied down to any front.
I make this assumption since they behave like a reaction force, jumping in when Beshkar attacked, then relay-to-relay for six jumps to deal with our main force.
Their job is to stop disasters happening in your controlled area, or at least oppose it.
As such it is verboten to send them off on the attack, else every front commander would grab them for her attack/counterattack.
So this -particular- fleet is unlikely to come at us.

Now reaction forces are of necessity amongst the strongest task groups a military has, else they can't do their job.
Other fleets are smaller of necessity. the one fighting 3RWF had six dreads.
Sot the question the Rachni have to ask themselves is :
'Can the Virmire queen kill a six-dread fleet?'

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In a defensive battle in our territory at our fortified Relays? I think we'd have the advantage with just our battle fleet. Plus they (hopefully) don't know we don't have a reaction fleet, only having one front.

In fact I think poptart mentioned we'd have a small chance against the 10 dread fleet fight now, so that would be better at home:

Well, strictly speaking, you hold a qualitative advantage. On the other hand, they have dreadnoughts, numbers, and no battle damage. You'd have a chance of beating them, but outside of the realm of providence, you'd take massive losses.

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[Lightwhispers]

1st Raiding fleet is probably going to be mauled, at least a bit. That's going to be ouchy, but not a deadly blow. With the decent roll on screening, we're likely to get the 1st Battle fleet back without too much further damage... which means that a Rachni relay assault is likely to be ouchy. We have 3 undamaged battlecruisers, and 3 more that are damaged-but-functional, and our cruisers are doing pretty well. Add that to the relay defense platforms, and that's likely to make any Rachni push that's not in overwhelming force rather Pyrrhic. (Which is still not good for us, but the fact that losing Attican Beta isn't immediately fatal means we're not so screwed.) The 10-dreadnaught fleet might be able to make it through both relay assaults (Attican and Sentry Omega)... but would likely take severe losses, if not be crippled... which would do Bad Things to their strategic position, since that would likely be double-digit dreadnaught losses in one year.

And if we can hold off the Rachni long enough to get the Quarian fleet repaired... we'll be in a decent place, defensively. Granted, Lissa's budget will be screaming and bleeding, but that's something we're used to. (And the possibility of picking the Quarians' brains on the subject of proper dreadnaught design... *drools* After all, we're basically rebuilding one from derelict status.)

 

[Alliterate]

1st Raiding fleet is probably going to be mauled, at least a bit. That's going to be ouchy, but not a deadly blow. With the decent roll on screening, we're likely to get the 1st Battle fleet back without too much further damage... which means that a Rachni relay assault is likely to be ouchy. We have 3 undamaged battlecruisers, and 3 more that are damaged-but-functional, and our cruisers are doing pretty well. Add that to the relay defense platforms, and that's likely to make any Rachni push that's not in overwhelming force rather Pyrrhic. (Which is still not good for us, but the fact that losing Attican Beta isn't immediately fatal means we're not so screwed.) The 10-dreadnaught fleet might be able to make it through both relay assaults (Attican and Sentry Omega)... but would likely take severe losses, if not be crippled... which would do Bad Things to their strategic position, since that would likely be double-digit dreadnaught losses in one year.

And if we can hold off the Rachni long enough to get the Quarian fleet repaired... we'll be in a decent place, defensively. Granted, Lissa's budget will be screaming and bleeding, but that's something we're used to. (And the possibility of picking the Quarians' brains on the subject of proper dreadnaught design... *drools* After all, we're basically rebuilding one from derelict status.)

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One problem with significant losses is... our shipyards are already going to be very full with the 3RWF already, so can we even build our usual complement, let alone repair the damage? It might take several turns?

 

[SAGrognard]

One problem with significant losses is... our shipyards are already going to be very full with the 3RWF already, so can we even build our usual complement, let alone repair the damage? It might take several turns?

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'Our shipyards are full of ally warships that we are repairing, less building capability' is one of those -nice- problems to have

 

[Alliterate]

'Our shipyards are full of ally warships that we are repairing, less building capability' is one of those -nice- problems to have

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Clearly the only reasonable solution is- we need the fleet building capacity of a first-rate Power

 

[MTB]

Conquer the Lystheni!

 

[uju32]

Conquer the Lystheni!

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Waste of time and effort; no evidence they're currently capable of building anything larger than a light cruiser.
Diplomancing them into paying for extra shipyard space as part of their war contribution might be possible, though, and something we should consider.

 

[Alliterate]

Waste of time and effort; no evidence they're currently capable of building anything larger than a light cruiser.
Diplomancing them into paying for extra shipyard space as part of their war contribution might be possible, though, and something we should consider.

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Maybe we can get them to repair the lighter Quarian ships? Though that means they get Quarian ship tech, too.

 

[Enjou]

Doing anything in the Lystheni yards would mean they'd use the opportunity to steal tech, plant devices for spying, etc. Not really something I'd trust.

 

[VoidZero]

The great issue from Quriaran fleet is who's paying their salary for the duration?

All those foreign sailors spending money in our system is excellent for the economy, but since we are cut off from Quriaran government there's no way to solve that apart from asking the Quriaran fleet Admiral; which is a bit iffy since head of state shouldn't discuss this kind of thing with foreign military.

I'm most definitely not saying we should bribe the Quriarans, but giving them citizenship and right to vote is very much in our Mira's interest power.

 

[Enjou]

The great issue from Quriaran fleet is who's paying their salary for the duration?

All those foreign sailors spending money in our system is excellent for the economy, but since we are cut off from Quriaran government there's no way to solve that apart from asking the Quriaran fleet Admiral; which is a bit iffy since head of state shouldn't discuss this kind of thing with foreign military.

I'm most definitely not saying we should bribe the Quriarans, but giving them citizenship and right to vote is very much in our Mira's interest power.

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Unless they have a bunch of money and supplies to be self-sufficient, obviously we're going to be footing the bill for everything, at least in the short term. Longer term we might be able to get reimbursed by the Quarian government for at least the material expenses, which I think they might be politically obligated to do given that we bled to save Quarian lives when we weren't obligated to.

As far as citizenship, that seems unlikely to work. Most of the Quarians will want to go home to their families once they're able to.

 

[Dwergar]

The great issue from Quriaran fleet is who's paying their salary for the duration?

All those foreign sailors spending money in our system is excellent for the economy, but since we are cut off from Quriaran government there's no way to solve that apart from asking the Quriaran fleet Admiral; which is a bit iffy since head of state shouldn't discuss this kind of thing with foreign military.

I'm most definitely not saying we should bribe the Quriarans, but giving them citizenship and right to vote is very much in our Mira's interest power.

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Well, considering that all their techs and officers would be engaged in programs to improve our navy... I don't think that they wouldn't get their salaries.
Consulting fees and all that.

 

[MTB]

I'd also assume that repaired/undamaged Quarian ships do something else than idling in orbit.

 

[uju32]

1st Raiding fleet is probably going to be mauled, at least a bit. That's going to be ouchy, but not a deadly blow. With the decent roll on screening, we're likely to get the 1st Battle fleet back without too much further damage... which means that a Rachni relay assault is likely to be ouchy. We have 3 undamaged battlecruisers, and 3 more that are damaged-but-functional, and our cruisers are doing pretty well. Add that to the relay defense platforms, and that's likely to make any Rachni push that's not in overwhelming force rather Pyrrhic. (Which is still not good for us, but the fact that losing Attican Beta isn't immediately fatal means we're not so screwed.) The 10-dreadnaught fleet might be able to make it through both relay assaults (Attican and Sentry Omega)... but would likely take severe losses, if not be crippled... which would do Bad Things to their strategic position, since that would likely be double-digit dreadnaught losses in one year.

And if we can hold off the Rachni long enough to get the Quarian fleet repaired... we'll be in a decent place, defensively. Granted, Lissa's budget will be screaming and bleeding, but that's something we're used to. (And the possibility of picking the Quarians' brains on the subject of proper dreadnaught design... *drools* After all, we're basically rebuilding one from derelict status.)

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There's a significant chance that throwing a 10 dreadnought fleet into the teeth of our relay defenses will end with a mauled fleet being thrown back.
100 CL+ platforms backed by up to 9 capital ships and screen is not trivial, not when you're coming out of a relay jump into their range.

 

[Nurgle]

There's a significant chance that throwing a 10 dreadnought fleet into the teeth of our relay defenses will end with a mauled fleet being thrown back.
100 CL+ platforms backed by up to 9 capital ships and screen is not trivial, not when you're coming out of a relay jump into their range.

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You are the most optimistic person in these thread. You always assume the best results for Virmire and not the worst.

Like the raiding fleet most likely got ambushed right when they came through the relay. It would not matter if they outnumbered the defenders if they get surprised.

Or that ten dreadnoughts can fire at extreme range and burn down most of our defenses without having to worry about getting hit back.

 

[Enjou]

Or that ten dreadnoughts can fire at extreme range and burn down most of our defenses without having to worry about getting hit back.

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They'd have to get out of the firing range first. The relay defenses would be placed such that anything that comes out of the relay is going to be in range. Doing anything else would make relay defenses completely pointless.

 

[Nurgle]

They'd have to get out of the firing range first. The relay defenses would be placed such that anything that comes out of the relay is going to be in range. Doing anything else would make relay defenses completely pointless.

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We have what a hundred at the relay. That are the equivalent of a light cruiser. Which while not as powerful will do some damage. But they still have ten dreadnoughts. At best we drive them off with severe casualties.

 

[Dwergar]

You are the most optimistic person in these thread. You always assume the best results for Virmire and not the worst.

Like the raiding fleet most likely got ambushed right when they came through the relay. It would not matter if they outnumbered the defenders if they get surprised.

Or that ten dreadnoughts can fire at extreme range and burn down most of our defenses without having to worry about getting hit back.

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You forget an important fact: Attackers come out of transit out of formation.
Some ships overshoot and come into long/medium/close range novahot and are turkey shoot. Some ships are a hundred thousand klicks out and have to spend valuable time to get into combat. And all the others are out of position to properly screen capships, shoot at defenders et cetera.

Relay assault inherently favours the defenders. Look no further than beginning of our assault on Hercules system.

 

[Nurgle]

You forget an important fact: Attackers come out of transit without formation.
Some ships overshoot and come into long/medium/close range novahot and are turkey shoot. Some ships are a hundred thousand klicks out and have to spend valuable time to get into combat. And all the others are out of position to properly screen capships, shoot at defenders et cetera.

Relay assault inherently favours the defenders. Look no further than beginning of our assault on Hercules system.

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Actually no , it depends on the fleet how well they are trained and there commander. But the Ranchi have such a quantitative advantage it negates oh defense advantage. It just depends on if they want to pay the price of taking Attica Beta from us.

 

[Dwergar]

Actually no , it depends on the fleet how well they are trained and there commander. But the Ranchi have such a quantitative advantage it negates oh defense advantage. It just depends on if they want to pay the price of taking Attica Beta from us.

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Remember that comment of Joker from the start of 1st ME game?
Legendary pilot on bleeding edge ship 2k years from now has said that it was an achievement to get within 2k klicks from desired point during relay transit.
Drift on Relay transition makes any attempt on Relay assault favourable to defenders.

Given how much we put into preparation to repel Relay assault on this turn specifically, with minefields deployed and stations on alert... With just 1st Battle fleet we would have at least a 50/50 chance to grind down an assault from this 11-dreadnought strong force.

And since in the eyes of Rachni queens we may just have a garrison fleet with another half-dozen dreadnoughts... They would have to pull more forces for an assault - needing more time and worsening their position on other fronts.

 

[uju32]

You are the most optimistic person in these thread. You always assume the best results for Virmire and not the worst. Like the raiding fleet most likely got ambushed right when they came through the relay.

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No, Im just not unduly pessimistic.
I don't know why you assume the Rachni would be sitting on the Relay; when we assaulted Attican Beta, the only Rachni ships at the relay were those supporting the recon force they sent into Hoc.

Most of the fleet was around the planet.

It would not matter if they outnumbered the defenders if they get surprised.

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Not how it works.
The attacking side always has tactical surprise; that's why Relay attacks are even feasible in the first place.
Else they'd jump into waiting guns.

Furthermore, the GM has made it clear that numbers and quality DO matter; a corvette is never going to beat a battlefleet, even if it rolls three degrees of success. GM's example.

Or that ten dreadnoughts can fire at extreme range and burn down most of our defenses without having to worry about getting hit back.

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1)You are jumping into weapons range of a hundred or so CL-class platforms and mines.
You need to vent heat. They don't.
See the problem?

2) You can't fire at extreme range because you are jumping into their range.
The farthest we've seen a relay jump land in this game was 30k from the relay in Turn 3; Extreme range is ~40k+ IIRC.
A set of defense stations at 20k from the Relay have you comfortably inside cruiser range.

3)Worse, there is a chance that badly plotted jumps scatters your fleet from here to the system limit.
At which point you are facing the enemy with your formation shot to hell, but theirs intact.
And the defending screen gets in close and guts your capitals. With corvettes.

We have what a hundred at the relay. That are the equivalent of a light cruiser. Which while not as powerful will do some damage. But they still have ten dreadnoughts. At best we drive them off with severe casualties.

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And you say I'm unduly optimistic.
This is not a field battle; they're assaulting defenses, with CL-class battlestations that exchanged their engines for heavier defenses and weapons.
And their emergence zone puts them in range of the guns.

 

[VoidZero]

Screen ships are named screens because their purposes are tanking damages for higher values ships and trap bait. So if the Rachni made up their mind on finishing us, then they can throw out all their frigates and lower ships to drown out defense stations via ramming or similar. Which will be devastatingly effective if we didn't have comparable fleet contesting the move. The Dreadnoughts can reposition at the same time for full killing power. Anyone wining with massive losses usually means shredded fleets (if any survived) from every side.

Obviously 2nd tier power fighting against 1st tier isn't ideal, but grinning and bite the bullet about the only sure thing.

 

[Nurgle]

No, Im just not unduly pessimistic.
I don't know why you assume the Rachni would be sitting on the Relay; when we assaulted Attican Beta, the only Rachni ships at the relay were those supporting the recon force they sent into Hoc.

Most of the fleet was around the planet.
Not how it works.
The attacking side always has tactical surprise; that's why Relay attacks are even feasible in the first place.
Else they'd jump into waiting guns.

Furthermore, the GM has made it clear that numbers and quality DO matter; a corvette is never going to beat a battlefleet, even if it rolls three degrees of success. GM's example.

1)You are jumping into weapons range of a hundred or so CL-class platforms and mines.
You need to vent heat. They don't.
See the problem?

2) You can't fire at extreme range because you are jumping into their range.
The farthest we've seen a relay jump land in this game was 30k from the relay in Turn 3; Extreme range is ~40k+ IIRC.
A set of defense stations at 20k from the Relay have you comfortably inside cruiser range.

3)Worse, there is a chance that badly plotted jumps scatters your fleet from here to the system limit.
At which point you are facing the enemy with your formation shot to hell, but theirs intact.
And the defending screen gets in close and guts your capitals. With corvettes.

And you say I'm unduly optimistic.
This is not a field battle; they're assaulting defenses, with CL-class battlestations that exchanged their engines for heavier defenses and weapons.
And their emergence zone puts them in range of the guns.

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I think they would stay on the relay because it is what I would do to attack any fleet incoming. When you want to come up with things that you may encounter in a operation you picture what you do and plan for that. How would you fight a enemy that was coming through a relay with limited forces?

while quality matter quantity still has a quality of it owns. We took on a fleet with 6 dreadnoughts against the seven battleships and two damaged dreadnoughts. We still came out ahead but mission lost one battleship 3 damaged and 3 omptimale. Not counting the hulked dreadnought and mission kill other one.


As for a ambush ships do not have to vent when they jump strat through. Right now the Ranchi fleet is venting because they did 6 jumps in a short time.
We should not assume they are going to vent when they come right out. They only need to vent when it builds up.

I am assuming the worse because you always assume the worst in a operation. Unless a politician is running something. We should assume that raiding fleet is not going to be operational or fighting in the next faze of combat. That these fleet will follow us and assault us.