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Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

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Magic_Pal said:
By the abyss, why would they do that? Do you remember that Batarians are SLAVERS?!
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Untrue.
The Batarian Hegemony of today is not the Batarian Hegemony of 2000 years hence.
They have social issues, including a caste system; they don't currently have slavery.

Magic_Pal said:
There is no place for a politics right now!
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Self-evidently untrue.
There is always room for politics. That's why you are voting Independence.

Magic_Pal said:
And our territory is OURS! They lose any kind of claim when they abandon us. In their minds this is now a Rachni territory. They lose it. We Reclaim it. End of a story.
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Let's be clear:
If a unified Citadel denies our territorial claims, we can currently do about as much about it as if the lystheni tried to claim territory and we said no.
That's what the geopolitical disparity is like.

Not to mention that claimed territory that isn't in use means nothing when a peer polity is around.
Ask the canon Batarians about the Skyllian Verge.
 
[X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse

Can't put the genie back in the bottle.
 
uju32 said:
This is not accurate. Noveria is not a Citadel world. Illium is.
Ilium has to obey most Council legislation as well.
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Let's rewind this argument a little.
You said in peacetime we could organise a referendum to secede and the Council would obey its results.
I said it's untrue and cited GM.
You said Illium's existence contradict it.
I said that there is no contradiction. Illium had its special status from the beginning. Just like Noveria had its independency from the beginning.

So, basically, the question is not Illium status, but possibility to achieve independence for Virmire.
And my position is:
The Council is fine with new colonies independency. They're not fine with already established colony declare independency.

uju32 said:
The Citadel does not do this. UN, not Imperium of Man.
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The Citadel definitely does this:
PoptartProdigy said:
For one, the Council only has political framework for race-based member states and Council-administrated colonies.
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uju32 said:
We do know that Citadel corporations were doing business in the Terminus; once a general war starts, abandoned by means corporations fled for safe territory.It doesn't necessitate political involvement, let alone colonies.
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And I disagree.
But this dispute can be solved only by someone more knowledgable than us.

@PoptartProdigy
Can you please clarify political status of the Terminus and Virmire before the war?
Was the Terminus basically lawless space from the beginning? "Tread at your own risk, the Citadel will not help you"?
Or did the Council consider it part of its space, with all that it entails?
Had Virmire an ability to declare its independence through referendum in peace time?
 
uju32 said:
Untrue.
The Batarian Hegemony of today is not the Batarian Hegemony of 2000 years hence.
They have social issues, including a caste system; they don't currently have slavery.


Self-evidently untrue.
There is always room for politics. That's why you are voting Independence.


Let's be clear:
If a unified Citadel denies our territorial claims, we can currently do about as much about it as if the lystheni tried to claim territory and we said no.
That's what the geopolitical disparity is like.

Not to mention that claimed territory that isn't in use means nothing when a peer polity is around.
Ask the canon Batarians about the Skyllian Verge.
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OK. But I must. @PoptartProdigy could you tell us if Batarians are slavers now?
 
Update on the tally
Adhoc vote count started by Rakuhn on Jan 11, 2018 at 2:21 PM, finished with 201 posts and 74 votes.
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Shaseyu said:
Let's rewind this argument a little.
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Shaseyu said:
So, basically, the question is not Illium status, but possibility to achieve independence for Virmire.
And my position is:
The Council is fine with new colonies independency. They're not fine with already established colony declare independency.
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And my assertion is that there is zero evidence of the Council attempting to keep planets or nations that have decided to leave, regardless of origin.
The Batarians weren't stopped. The krogan aren't ruled or represented by the Citadel; they monitor their homeworlds to enforce the ban on warships, but nothing further. The quarians were actively kicked out of their embassy. The lystheni are exiles from Citadel space.

This is not their thing. They do not have the political structures to enforce that kind of deal.
Nor do their member states at this time.

The Council is a cross between the UN, EU, and NATO. It doesn't even have it's own military.
Most of it's power is what its member states give it.
Shaseyu said:
The Citadel definitely does this:
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Conceded.
And request for clarification.
@PoptartProdigy
and Council-administrated colonies.
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What does that imply?
Are we talking the Council administering existing colonies in the event of disaster/breakdown of law and order?
Or them establishing new colonies?
 
Given that the Council is stated to have flat out abandoned us, I've changed my mind.

[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps.
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse.
 
Shaseyu said:
Let's rewind this argument a little.
You said in peacetime we could organise a referendum to secede and the Council would obey its results.
I said it's untrue and cited GM.
You said Illium's existence contradict it.
I said that there is no contradiction. Illium had its special status from the beginning. Just like Noveria had its independency from the beginning.

So, basically, the question is not Illium status, but possibility to achieve independence for Virmire.
And my position is:
The Council is fine with new colonies independency. They're not fine with already established colony declare independency.


The Citadel definitely does this:




And I disagree.
But this dispute can be solved only by someone more knowledgable than us.

@PoptartProdigy
Can you please clarify political status of the Terminus and Virmire before the war?
Was the Terminus basically lawless space from the beginning? "Tread at your own risk, the Citadel will not help you"?
Or did the Council consider it part of its space, with all that it entails?
Had Virmire an ability to declare its independence through referendum in peace time?
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The Terminus was broadly held to be Citadel space pre-war (The Citadel, at the time, being the only polity on the stage). However, it was always more of a technical designation; in reality, colonies in the galactic, "north," were more corporate holdings that paid lip service to the Council than anything else. In theory, Council law applied. In practice, enforcement was far sketchier. The scope of Council holdings out there had far outpaced any ability to impose central control with present infrastructure. That said, it was Council space, and in theory was entitled to Council protection...not that that happened. In the wake of the Council's complete withdrawal to the south, any pretense of central control collapsed. Corporations pulled out, and locals were left to fend for themselves.

Virmire was Council-administrated, in the same sense that the President of the United States administrates Puerto Rico. Virmire did not belong to any of the Council's member or affiliate states, instead paying its loyalty directly to the Council. However, Virmire was known as a colony for a reason; all administration was local, and the Council had very little or no day-to-day or even year-to-year involvement. This also meant that no, there was no provision whatsoever for Virmirean independence. The Council has provisions for member states to leave; it could not have formed without them, and that process is actually very smooth. Virmire was (is?) not a member state; it is a Council possession. The rules for your independence are roughly approximated by the Council's stance on the independence of member states' colonies; namely, that member states' policy trumps. Given that the Council never did create a policy regarding its holdings, that means there are no provisions for you to declare independence, although this is more an oversight than anything else and the Council's response to any given attempt will depend on the situation when you do.
Magic_Pal said:
OK. But I must. @PoptartProdigy could you tell us if Batarians are slavers now?
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Yup. Interspecies slaving hasn't really taken off yet, though; outside of a few extremely scandalous cases, they enslave their own people and nothing else.
 
[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps.
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse.
 
I really really want to run into the Drell.

[X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
[X][BUOYS] General Distress Call.
[X][BUOYS] Update the Maps.
[X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse.
 
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The Prime Minister's Girlfriend (Non-Canon, If Hilarious)
  • Apocrypha
    • Omake - The Prime Minister's Girl Friend

    *Counter-Intelligence Report*

    In the lead up to the war Illena Riseva was like many Asari looking for a new home and living her life to the absolute fullest. As such she became a barmaid in Virmire before getting a position as an accountant for the Phezius Accounting LLC. It was good pay and it afforded Illena a decent living standard during the war and it did allow her that one special vacation to the Beach where she met her girlfriend. Head of State Mira T'Vael aka 'She who turned the ship around' as she likes to put it. Illena was never much for plotics or the public lifestyle and simply voted for the Prime Minister when the time came.

    However times have changed and now Illena has taken a bold and risky move for her life and decided to open up a Vacation Resort upon the news of free access across Virmire. The Resort is the accumulation of everything Illena has ever made in paychecks and stocks. Although she was short 50k in credits illena made up the difference by taking out a loan to complete the building of the resort which she called 'Club Shu'Vale'. Shu'Vale has only just started and thanks to a good PR campaign that ran by one determined Asari the club seems to be in good standing as rooms are rented out and guests are fed and entertained.

    Illena's relationship with the Prime Minister at this time is unknown upon the request of Mira for fear of what scandal it could cause which Illena agreed...by kissing her supposedly. The relationship is likely to continue which in of itself is not an issue. The part that however keeps me up at night is that Illena is actually the God Dauther of noneother than Tamara Kirai. Who none really know that there all so close together. Illena's relationship wwith Kirai is of the Godmother who helped attain a basic education but not much else. They haven't called each other in 25 years if phone records are to be trusted.

    All in all I can only see this train turning into a Dramatic Novella. I kinda want to see that though. I like Novella's.

    *End Report*

    @PoptartProdigy
    Decided to try and make a drama route between the President's Prime Minster's Girlfriend and the Secretary Lady. Why? I like Shakespeare :)
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • [X][TIMING] Veto, you belligerent idiots.
    [X][BUOYS] Update the Maps
    [X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
     
    Since the known galaxy was claimed by the Council prior to the Rachni War, we can infer that every polity was under the council's (nominal) protection, and thus the Batarians could not enslave sapients of other species without risking the council's wrath. With the terminus systems declaring independence this is no longer true, and we can expect the infamous Batarian pirate/slaver raids to begin in earnest.

    I'm partially expecting that the Batarians are going to be initially sponsored as "privateers" to keep non-Council affiliated worlds weak while the Council worlds rebuild.
     
    Lord Hater said:
    Omake - The Prime Minister's Girl Friend

    *Counter-Intelligence Report*

    In the lead up to the war Illena Riseva was like many Asari looking for a new home and living her life to the absolute fullest. As such she became a barmaid in Virmire before getting a position as an accountant for the Phezius Accounting LLC. It was good pay and it afforded Illena a decent living standard during the war and it did allow her that one special vacation to the Beach where she met her girlfriend. Head of State Mira T'Vael aka 'She who turned the ship around' as she likes to put it. Illena was never much for plotics or the public lifestyle and simply voted for the Prime Minister when the time came.

    However times have changed and now Illena has taken a bold and risky move for her life and decided to open up a Vacation Resort upon the news of free access across Virmire. The Resort is the accumulation of everything Illena has ever made in paychecks and stocks. Although she was short 50k in credits illena made up the difference by taking out a loan to complete the building of the resort which she called 'Club Shu'Vale'. Shu'Vale has only just started and thanks to a good PR campaign that ran by one determined Asari the club seems to be in good standing as rooms are rented out and guests are fed and entertained.

    Illena's relationship with the Prime Minister at this time is unknown upon the request of Mira for fear of what scandal it could cause which Illena agreed...by kissing her supposedly. The relationship is likely to continue which in of itself is not an issue. The part that however keeps me up at night is that Illena is actually the God Dauther of noneother than Tamara Kirai. Who none really know that there all so close together. Illena's relationship wwith Kirai is of the Godmother who helped attain a basic education but not much else. They haven't called each other in 25 years if phone records are to be trusted.

    All in all I can only see this train turning into a Dramatic Novella. I kinda want to see that though. I like Novella's.

    *End Report*

    @PoptartProdigy
    Decided to try and make a drama route between the President's Prime Minster's Girlfriend and the Secretary Lady. Why? I like Shakespeare :)
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    Why Hater, you spoil me. ;) Non-canon due to things, but appreciated nonetheless! Have a threadmark!
     
    PoptartProdigy said:
    Virmire was Council-administrated, in the same sense that the President of the United States administrates Puerto Rico. Virmire did not belong to any of the Council's member or affiliate states, instead paying its loyalty directly to the Council. However, Virmire was known as a colony for a reason; all administration was local, and the Council had very little or no day-to-day or even year-to-year involvement. This also meant that no, there was no provision whatsoever for Virmirean independence. The Council has provisions for member states to leave; it could not have formed without them, and that process is actually very smooth. Virmire was (is?) not a member state; it is a Council possession. The rules for your independence are roughly approximated by the Council's stance on the independence of member states' colonies; namely, that member states' policy trumps. Given that the Council never did create a policy regarding its holdings, that means there are no provisions for you to declare independence, although this is more an oversight than anything else and the Council's response to any given attempt will depend on the situation when you do.
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    So another words if we want to declare ourselves independent we have to back that up with RESULTS. No holding back or playing it safe, we have to do enough damage to the Bugs that even the Council will notice on the other side of the galaxy.

    That also means forcing the situation with those paranoid idiots next door to a head, on the plus side they'll be more likely to trust us if we've officially broken off from the council. On the other side we have one of two options if we push them, they pull their heads out of their ass and start to show real trust, or we have to smash them flat and rebuild as a group that isn't horrible paranoid and willfully stupid.
     
    [X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
    [X][BUOYS] General Distress Call.
    [X][BUOYS] Update the Maps.
    [X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse
     
    [X][TIMING] Pass. Virmire First.
    [X][BUOYS] General Distress Call.
    [X][BUOYS] Update the Maps.
    [X][BUOYS] Reconnaissance Pulse.
     
    gutza1 said:
    @PoptartProdigy How is batarian slaving justifiable from an economic standpoint? Wouldn't automation be more cost effective than slaves for manual labor? Honestly, I always thought that batarian slavery in Mass Effect made no sense considering the tech level of the universe.
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    The easiest narrative solution would be for the Batarians to have found a way to motivate slaves to work in semi-skilled and skilled professions.

    If we instead limited the Batarians to modern day management techniques, the most likely narrative solution would be limiting slaves to non-productive capacity. They would be the individuals that pirates were unable to ransom back. Slaves would then be mostly a status symbol, and would likely be used as entertainers or personal caretakers.
     
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    DiceOfStupidity said:
    Citadel have its own problems, and will always look at it's own interests first, before thinking about peripheral system. We cannot rely on them to solve our problems. I would sooner expect they would use politics to drain us as much as possible.
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    Our declaring independence will not slow down or reduce their ability to drain us significantly, and may give them far more incentive to weaken us. As noted, the Citadel has a good reason the FIRST seceding colony to be ground down to nothing by the rachni... Because otherwise, other colonies may secede. Including colonies that are less threatened by the rachni and want to withhold resources from fighting them, which in turn threatens the Citadel races' collective survival.

    Declaring independence may be the right thing to do, but if it is, it won't be because of that making us immune to Citadel hostility. If the Citadel decides to cripple Virmire, they can. Even if they can't safely do it during the war, they'll be able to do it easily afterwards. If they don't sic the batarians on us they can always sic the krogan on us.

    So we need to reach an arrangement with the Citadel that they can accept (as not costing them anything it would be that bad for their interests to agree to), and that gives us as much leverage and freedom of action as we can manage.

    Pursuant to that...

    Chrestomanci said:
    They would have to be incredible stupid to offer concessions to us for rejoining. It would encourage members to declare independence and rejoin to gain those same concessions. It is more likely that instead we will be the ones making concessions.
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    I suspect that our best hope of gaining concessions from the Council* is to use the threat of declaring independence as a bargaining chip. The exact best moment at which to do this, I don't know, but if done right I suspect it would work.

    The Council miiight just decide to recognize Sentry Omega as the rightful turf of the Virmire Protectorate, a new member/associate/affiliate/whatever with a recognized embassy on the Citadel, and receive Virmire's unstinting help fighting the rachni...

    IF the alternative is for the Virmire Protectorate to hunker down behind Sentry Omega again and largely withdraw from the wider war in order to stubbornly protect its independence.

    ...

    It seems unwise to throw this bargaining chip away by pre-emptively declaring independence and going "you mad, sis?" when the Council's diplomats declare their discontent with the decision.
    __________________

    *(e.g. control of the unsettled systems in our own cluster that we ourselves colonized during the war)
     
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    gutza1 said:
    @PoptartProdigy How is batarian slaving justifiable from an economic standpoint? Wouldn't automation be more cost effective than slaves for manual labor? Honestly, I always thought that batarian slavery in Mass Effect made no sense considering the tech level of the universe.
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    Yeah, looking at tech levels, batarian slavery makes no economic sense.

    So what makes you think the reason for batarian slavery is economic?

    Humans do any number of unwise economic things for religious/cultural reasons. I see no reason not to export that to the Hegemony. I doubt their caste system is any more beneficial for their economy than mass slavery. But presumably, to the political elite if nothing else, each serves a concrete purpose in maintaining social order. Some nations don't care what their social institutions are if everything works right ("It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice,"), some will sacrifice virtually every aspect of a functional state in order to maintain control ("North Korea").

    We already call the Hegemony Space Korea; doesn't seem like too big a stretch to extend that.
     
    lancelot said:
    So another words if we want to declare ourselves independent we have to back that up with RESULTS. No holding back or playing it safe, we have to do enough damage to the Bugs that even the Council will notice on the other side of the galaxy.
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    Eh, we have already done enough to prove ourselves. More important is to present it as a fait accompli rather than asking for permission later.

    They currently have no policy on it. If we turn up as an Independent nation they will almost certainly just shrug and accept it. If we turn up as a long lost (and much expanded) colony then ask for Independence then they will have to actually make a decision.
    Safer to declare now and have inertia on our side.
     
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