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Void Naval History: Virmirean Battlecruisers
@PoptartProdigy Has the Battlecruiser design had its first refit yet or do we need to research it?
In fact, we are currently on your second entire class and conceptual generation for battlecruisers.

Your first design was the Kamar-class.

Frankly, this class was a lemon. While it was decisive in its role, this was primarily due to luck and good commanders. The ship was, conceptually, an elongated Strala-class heavy cruiser (your workhorse design as of the start of the Wars, and indeed, of the quest). In-universe, this is the reason why battlecruisers are classified as battleship-ified cruisers (BCs) -- they literally began life as exactly that. This led to many questionable decisions born of sheer oversight. While the drives were improved to take advantage of increased power generation, the shields were not and the armor was, in addition to being deliberately light for its size, an awkward extension of the Strala's armor layout, which was not at the time understood to just fundamentally not work for a ship a kilometer long. The Kamar, like the Strala, lost shields on the first dreadnought hit, was crippled on the second, and was destroyed on the third. This did not serve well on a ship built to be a primary fleet combatant; while Virmire found roles for battlecruisers, a fleet battle is not their favorite playground. However, it had heavy firepower, and its intrinsic advantages partnered with good use and sheer luck to grant it a successful career.

Refits over the course of its lifespan primarily focused on improvements to the kinetic barriers, allowing the barriers to withstand three dreadnought rounds, as well as a secondary race to upgrade drives and armor in order to try and improve survivability without losing speed. However, the armor scheme handicapped it, and once the successor class was designed, the Kamar was phased out one-for-one with its successors, the individual ships being scrapped in order to recycle the materials. The first generation of battlecruiser designs, the Kamar holds an odd place in the Navy's heart; an innovative leap forward in response to very specific needs, but, in retrospect, an embarrassing first attempt that lucked its way into survival.

Your second -- and current -- design is the Durrahe Korun-class.

This class was built from the ground up to include quarian shipbuilding techniques and suit Beshkarian doctrine, as well as integrating lessons learned from the Kamar. The most crucial step began before the first designs were ever made, when Minister K'Sharr ruled that the next battlecruiser design would not be intended as a Battle Fleet capital ship. Instead, they were built from the ground up as a raid leader, with each battlecruiser expected to operate as the flagship of its own task force detached from the main body of its parent fleet while on tour. This demanded very different design decisions, beginning with the controversial decision to reduce their length to 800 meters from the Kamar-class's kilometer length. While this significantly slashed firepower and put the Koruns at a substantial disadvantage against enemy dreadnoughts in any environment but their favored melee, the attendant decision to retain the same type and number of power generators as the Devastator-class kilometer dreadnoughts, which would enter service a year after the Koruns, meant that the smaller spinal cannon freed up a massive amount of power for other functions.

Thus, in addition to unusually extensive command, control, and communications facilities, improvements focused on speed, barrier strength, and heat management. The Koruns match the latest rachni heavy cruisers for speed, and significantly overmatch the rear-line garrison forces they most typically engage. In STL flight, they are nimble and fast, and large heat radiation banks enable it to remain in combat for far longer than most ships. Barriers also saw fierce investment, with the incredible new reserves of power along with incremental improvements in barrier technology enabling barriers that can soak five dreadnought shots before failing. The Korun's barriers are -- albeit barely, thanks to more sophisticated Citadel designs -- the strongest in the galaxy for the ship's size. In addition to power, you found space in the mass budget for these improvements with a shamelessly-stolen quarian technique an innovative new capital-class armor scheme, a variant of which also saw adoption on the Devastators. This significantly improved survivability at a fraction of the mass costs of last-generation armor designs, enabling unshielded Koruns to take a dreadnought slug and remain combat operational (the second still tends to cripple them, but that is a 100% increase in performance and you're happy to have it).

A fully-mature, second-generation design, the Durrahe Korun-class battlecruiser is a point of unambiguous pride for the Navy. While it struggles against dreadnoughts, it remains capable of dominating cruisers, and has found a rock-solid role as a raider. Some members of the design remain in service with the Battle Fleets to grant an extra measure of punch in the melee, but the second generation of battlecruisers is defined by a specific focus on a primary mission outside of fleet combat.

Your third BC class remains prospective, but closer to reality every day.

While the Durrahe Koruns were expected to remain in service for many years before replacement, the reactor technology gleaned from Yulair relics has changed everything. The increase in power generation is insane. It is no hyperbole to say that your entire navy is now conceptually -- if not functionally, since you have yet to begin mass production -- obsolete as a result of this single invention. Shipbuilding companies received some of the first prototype models and have submitted several designs taking advantage of the sheer amount of power it provides. Some are talking of a return to kilometer designs in order to revisit the days of a battlecruiser being a brawling dreadnought; others talk of a ship capable of outmaneuvering older CLs, or mounting the most formidable barriers, bar none and by a huge margin, in the entire galaxy. Whatever the case may be, the next battlecruiser class promises a lot.

In short, the battlecruiser design has evolved significantly over the course of the quest, both physically and in terms of its doctrinal role.
 
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Honestly, if you want a ship design thread, why don't you just go and create a separate Mass Effect Ship Design quest?
At this specific point in time, I pull regular 90-hour work weeks. I am somehow running three entirely different quests on this schedule.

I do not want to see the shape of the breakdown if the next cool thing proves to be too much. Like, a Terminus Quest-linked design thread, that I can slot into the same headspace as the quest itself. A wholly separate one? No chance.
 
... I want to build a goalie ship to screen with. A light or heavy cruiser whose sole purpose is the mounting of ever increasing quantities of barriers and power generation. Slap some PD on and, as far as weapons go, call it a day.

They have one job. Soak fire, then rotate to the relative back of the formation to recharge. Completely worthless in a brawl*, but able to extend an artillery duel of even rough parity into perpetuity.

Would anyone use it?... maybe not. Probably not. But I still want to build it. :p

Needs some Asari or Batarian name for "shieldbearer"



*except the PD screening, for whatever that's worth.

EDIT- in fact, as far as Cruisers go, this would probably be considered an exorbitant waste of resources. But if you had those resources... well, there's a reason the Tank/Healer/DPS combo has been a winning team since before they were codified archetypes.
 
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While the Durrahe Koruns were expected to remain in service for many years before replacement, the reactor technology gleaned from Yulair relics has changed everything. The increase in power generation is insane. It is no hyperbole to say that your entire navy is now conceptually -- if not functionally, since you have yet to begin mass production -- obsolete as a result of this single invention. Shipbuilding companies received some of the first prototype models and have submitted several designs taking advantage of the sheer amount of power it provides. Some are talking of a return to kilometer designs in order to revisit the days of a battlecruiser being a brawling dreadnought; others talk of a ship capable of outmaneuvering older CLs, or mounting the most formidable barriers, bar none and by a huge margin, in the entire galaxy. Whatever the case may be, the next battlecruiser class promises a lot.
Hm. Are these new ship designs (both the new BC and/or other classes that take advantage of the new reactors) included in the Power is Power rollout action, below the level of abstraction, or is there another military action for fleet upgrades gated behind Power is Power?
 
Hm. Are these new ship designs (both the new BC and/or other classes that take advantage of the new reactors) included in the Power is Power rollout action, below the level of abstraction, or is there another military action for fleet upgrades gated behind Power is Power?
They will start rolling out over time after you complete that option. Still not sure which way I should jump with them.
 
So the next Class of Virmires Bc will be even better Shielded, Armored and be faster than bevore thanks to the new Reactor-tech? Will this make our Main-Weapons even stronger to or is our Tech not good enough to manage the extra Power input while remaining identical to the Koruns main Gun?
 
So the next Class of Virmires Bc will be even better Shielded, Armored and be faster than bevore thanks to the new Reactor-tech? Will this make our Main-Weapons even stronger to or is our Tech not good enough to manage the extra Power input while remaining identical to the Koruns main Gun?
Oh, it'll be more powerful, it just won't likely prompt any doctrinal evolutions unless they go the route of making them kilometer warships. You can eke out incremental gains with more power, but nothing increases the power per shot like an extra 200 meters to accelerate the shot.
 
So we essentially went from British style 'speed is armor' to the less enthusiastic German style of 'Armor is armor, but speed is nice, and battleship guns belong on battleships- not cruisers'.
... I want to build a goalie ship to screen with. A light or heavy cruiser whose sole purpose is the mounting of ever increasing quantities of barriers and power generation. Slap some PD on and, as far as weapons go, call it a day.

They have one job. Soak fire, then rotate to the relative back of the formation to recharge. Completely worthless in a brawl*, but able to extend an artillery duel of even rough parity into perpetuity.

Would anyone use it?... maybe not. Probably not. But I still want to build it. :p

Needs some Asari or Batarian name for "shieldbearer"



*except the PD screening, for whatever that's worth.

EDIT- in fact, as far as Cruisers go, this would probably be considered an exorbitant waste of resources. But if you had those resources... well, there's a reason the Tank/Healer/DPS combo has been a winning team since before they were codified archetypes.
How are you getting them to fire at it? 'Front of a formation' is a useless statement given the three dimensions of space and how difficult it is blocking LoS on this scale. Given sophisticated sensors and computers, there's no way the Rachni can't identify it's class and rough performance after an engagement or two. There's a reason that ships aren't designed around the holy RPG triune. AI limitations and threat formula designed to encourage it are not going to present, if you are building tanky ships at the expense of something else, you've got to have a compelling reason that you or I would accept to prioritize it.

Oh, it'll be more powerful, it just won't likely prompt any doctrinal evolutions unless they go the route of making them kilometer warships. You can eke out incremental gains with more power, but nothing increases the power per shot like an extra 200 meters to accelerate the shot.
Could we start seeing ROF more reminiscent of canon? I remember our ships take something like 2-3 times the time a modern Dreadnought does to fire it's gun. A nice way to boost the damage output of our BCs without running into wasteful over-penetration against their ideal prey.
 
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How are you getting them to fire at it? '
This is largely why it's so useless in a brawl, yes. But at artillery ranges, it's not impossible to just sit a ship between the enemy and your own artillery, course correcting to actually catch enemy fire wherever possible.

That's why I specifically described it as a goalie. It doesn't aggro like a video game tank, it actually goes out and tries to get hit.
 
Can we try for Ammunition modification alla Disruptor, Armor Pennetrator and High Explosive in our Main Guns or is that not Possible ?
And Poptart Thanks for the Clarification on the Power gains for the 3th Class of Bc,
 
So we essentially went from British style 'speed is armor' to the less enthusiastic German style of 'Armor is armor, but speed is nice, and battleship guns belong on battleships- not cruisers'.
More of a proficiency increase, honestly. It's still a dreadnought gun, just the smallest kind and much smaller than any the Rachni field. And it's still monstrously fast — honestly, faster than gen-1 designs. Most improvements were a matter of learning how to capital.
Could we start seeing ROF more reminiscent of canon? I remember our ships take something like 2-3 times the time a modern Dreadnought does to fire it's gun. A nice way to boost the damage output of our BCs without running into wasteful over-penetration against their ideal prey.
Definitely not.
Can we try for Ammunition modification alla Disruptor, Armor Pennetrator and High Explosive in our Main Guns or is that not Possible ?
And Poptart Thanks for the Clarification on the Power gains for the 3th Class of Bc,
Alas no. You're welcome!
 
This is largely why it's so useless in a brawl, yes. But at artillery ranges, it's not impossible to just sit a ship between the enemy and your own artillery, course correcting to actually catch enemy fire wherever possible.

That's why I specifically described it as a goalie. It doesn't aggro like a video game tank, it actually goes out and tries to get hit.
I really think you are underestimating the coordination to do this without slowing down your own long range fire, and actually covering all your heavy artillery (who are all going to be larger than this hypothetical goalie). For instance, you not only need to cover the trajectory your artillery buddy is firing along on and off over the course of ~6 second intervals. But you also need to network with every other goalie and artillery worth protecting that one of their targets can't get line of sight on your buddy. And the enemy is going to fan out to offer as many different firing lines as possible the moment they catch on to the trick.

I'm not going to say you could never ever pull it off, but it's going to be way more difficulty than just up-armoring or shielding the targets in question (entirely possible with our new reactors), and especially impractical against an enemy that can reliably outnumber you.
 
Yes that is quite sure, no one is that desperate at least YET. Give it a few years and losses and we might see Kamikaze as a prefered Tactic somewhere.
Edit. Grammar.
 
I'm still waiting to see carriers in this quest, also a separate class of BS that function as sniper. Menning a BT with main gun MORE powerfull then Drednought but with much less armor and staying in the rear and firing from long range, esentially a little more durable Glass Canon Ship which role is to destroy the new Capitals that the Rachni shown to have in huge amounts.
 
Your second -- and current -- design is the Durrahe Korun-class.
Barriers also saw fierce investment, with the incredible new reserves of power along with incremental improvements in barrier technology enabling barriers that can soak five dreadnought shots before failing.

enabling unshielded Koruns to take a dreadnought slug and remain combat operational (the second still tends to cripple them, but that is a 100% increase in performance and you're happy to have it).
Can you tell us how many hits our dreadnoughts, Rachni dreadnoughts, and other race's dreadnoughts can take so we have a point of comparision?
 
This talk of a ship to soak up enemy fire has given be an idea. With our new power generation could we deploy a drone swarm equipped with heavy shields around our ships to act like reactive armour.

What do you guys think, would this be cost prohibitive?
 
This talk of a ship to soak up enemy fire has given be an idea. With our new power generation could we deploy a drone swarm equipped with heavy shields around our ships to act like reactive armour.

What do you guys think, would this be cost prohibitive?
We'd need to be able to have effective drone swarms first. If you want that, you'd probably be best served by pushing for a closer relationship with Rannoch and more focus on researching the ancient robotics sites we've found so far.

Edit: Power generation for shields is also limited by the generators we'd have on the drones, and I'm not sure we could have effective eezo reactors at the size you're imagining at this point. Though, maybe our latest breakthrough could help with that quite a bit.
 
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It is possible to make a Drednought sized ship, take out the main gun and stuff it full of shield generators and make a shield ship? I meen ship that stay in the centre of squadron of other ships and project spherical or wall like shield to protect the squadron from enemy fire while itself being protected by the ships.
 
I'm still waiting to see carriers in this quest, also a separate class of BS that function as sniper. Menning a BT with main gun MORE powerfull then Drednought but with much less armor and staying in the rear and firing from long range, esentially a little more durable Glass Canon Ship which role is to destroy the new Capitals that the Rachni shown to have in huge amounts.
Why? Why make the biggest target in space and give it glass armor? The hypothetical range advantage you are banking on won't really exist because unless this thing is massively more maneuverable than BCs, it's essentially doubling down on their traits and pitting them against their counter where they are weakest. Cutting corners on a massive capital ship like that is throwing away so much money, and is relying on stringent range advantages that flat out don't exist when range is a function of projectile velocity versus the target's acceleration profile/agility.

This talk of a ship to soak up enemy fire has given be an idea. With our new power generation could we deploy a drone swarm equipped with heavy shields around our ships to act like reactive armour.

What do you guys think, would this be cost prohibitive?
Almost certainly. (Presumably) expensive reactors for each drone, expensive military grade kinetic barriers and drives for each drone (which means Eezo), and you need a ton of drones to adequately cover a formation. You'd probably be better served by leaving the drones un-shielded and significantly downscaled and focus on making them fast enough to try and intercept dreadnought slugs* and hope the projectile essentially explodes on impact. But that still leaves us trading expensive drone systems for hunks of inert metal that the enemy will be tossing like candy, so it's probably not very economical either way.

*By the time of canon, a dreadnought slug is going 4025 km/s. Given Extreme Ranges is tens of thousands of kilometers, we can assume that we're probably looking at at least 3 seconds of travel time so long as we're past 10,000 km in distance. Given light lag, the defensive system would only really have around ~2.961 seconds to react and place an obstacle in the path of the projectile. Maybe some kind of Casaba Howitzer warhead? I'm pretty sure we could make drone systems capable of reacting in that time-span, but the acceleration profile necessary to intercept is beyond me and I suspect it wouldn't be the most reliable, but if we're measuring lifespans on our BCs in single digit Dreadnought slugs it could be worth it. Especially since I'm trying to present the least favorable but still workable scenario given our weapons are probably low velocity, and I'm assuming the closest range portions of the Extreme Band.
 
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At this specific point in time, I pull regular 90-hour work weeks. I am somehow running three entirely different quests on this schedule.

I do not want to see the shape of the breakdown if the next cool thing proves to be too much. Like, a Terminus Quest-linked design thread, that I can slot into the same headspace as the quest itself. A wholly separate one? No chance.

90 hour work-week?

Ouch.

The fact that you are doing anything at all other than curling into the sofa, crunching snacks and watching sitcoms is praiseworthy.
 
Why? Why make the biggest target in space and give it glass armor? The hypothetical range advantage you are banking on won't really exist because unless this thing is massively more maneuverable than BCs, it's essentially doubling down on their traits and pitting them against their counter where they are weakest. Cutting corners on a massive capital ship like that is throwing away so much money, and is relying on stringent range advantages that flat out don't exist when range is a function of projectile velocity versus the target's acceleration profile/agility.


I see, I didn't think about it in that way.

So since this Idea is not fisible what about a fast and heavy shielded frigate or corvette with two mass effect cores, normal torpedo launchers and one shot attachment torpedo launchers(like one shot bazookas)?


They would work by making a micro FTL jump inside or the rear of enemy formation, spraying all of their torpedos(including the one shot ones that would after firing be ejected from the hull and as such make them lighter and faster) on the enemy heavy ships and immidietly afterwords jump away(thus second mass effect core to allow such tactics. I chose such small ships since they would be much easier and cheaper to produce not to mention be much easier to man and repair.
 
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