Kokurokoki
"IDW DA NYA!"
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- Area S09
I haven't heard anyone doing this considering that DS2 has a big asterisk that says "takes place thousands of years after DS1".
Teach Me the Dark Soul
- Thread starter AClassyBunny
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- dark souls lore speculation
I haven't heard anyone doing this considering that DS2 has a big asterisk that says "takes place thousands of years after DS1".
Daniel Estacado
ZA WARUDO
The Abyss Watchers were definitely an elite unit, while the Followers were the foot soldiers(though they also had the purpose of descending on anyone from the Undead Legion who went Abyssal).
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
The fact that they're armed for anti-monster work instead of for killing lots of guys suggests that most of the time when they got to a place shit had already hit the fan.
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
Oh yeah, I'm not doubting they were being consumed by the abyss, just that the red eyes aren't really a sign of it from what I can tell. Whether they're all mad from it or if the one that doesn't fight you is still sane and trying to stop the abyss's spread, I can't say.
I believe there's evidence (or it's flat out said) that they've attacked and razed places that barely even have a possibility of the Abyss.
I can understand why they'd be so obsessive about stemming the Abyss before it properly take root, seeing what happened in Oolacile and New Londo, but they seem to paranoidly take their task to the extreme.
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While I'm not sure about the Followers serving as Foot Soldiers, it does make some sense. Then again, I'm not sure if the Undead Legion really did much conventional warfare.
Just because their giant sword does bonus damage against abyssal damage doesn't mean they're specifically kitted out for dealing with monsters. While I assume their primary job would be monster slaying, when you're talking about the Abyss, what classifies as a monster can vary quite wildly. Besides, I'm rather confident that a Farron greatsword would be able to cleave through human flesh quite effectively regardless.
If I had to guess, the one lone Watcher is the only one who hasn't fallen to the corruption at this point, and they're just endlessly spawn killing every other Watcher who gets back up.
They probably attack you when you enter because they aren't sure whether or not you're tainted, and may as well get you out just to be safe.
I'll be honest, it's probably because they're a not-even-subtle reference to Bloodborne, so it really wouldn't be very surprising if they didn't particularly care for collateral damage.
After some searching however, I found the source; Hawkwood states "The Undead Legion of Farron is a caravan of Undead. Sworn by the wolf's blood to contain the Abyss, the Legion will bury a kingdom at the first sign of exposure."
While it isn't directly stated, I imagine it'd be hard to bury a kingdom figuratively without dealing with civilians.
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
I'd say the Followers are exactly what their name suggests: camp followers. They don't really seem to be professional soldiers, just random people accepted into the legion to tend to the more menial day-to-day needs of the legion. Their equipment isn't really suited to fighting large opposing forces that a hostile kingdom could muster, it's more oriented towards pinning and overwhelming single or small group targets (which would be the fallen Watchers.)
Soldiers are just a small portion of an army, it's the support that keeps everything running.
So while we are talking DS lore, I have a question. Was it ever elaborated on the fucked up passage of time in the painted world of Ariendell compared to the outside world?
Specifically the world is rotting when you fight sister Freida, and has been for a long time, with Father Ariendell Flagtating himself to keep fire away. You fight her and show the painter girl Fire, so she can paint a new world. All well and good.
And then comes the ringed city, specifically the part after you wake Fillinore. You time travel far into the future, and play out the rest of the DLC, before returning the dark soul pigment to the painter, with seeming no time having passed.
Is this just an example of the 'transatory lands' as the world breaks down under the dying fire, or does the painted world run at a different time to the wider world?
Specifically the world is rotting when you fight sister Freida, and has been for a long time, with Father Ariendell Flagtating himself to keep fire away. You fight her and show the painter girl Fire, so she can paint a new world. All well and good.
And then comes the ringed city, specifically the part after you wake Fillinore. You time travel far into the future, and play out the rest of the DLC, before returning the dark soul pigment to the painter, with seeming no time having passed.
Is this just an example of the 'transatory lands' as the world breaks down under the dying fire, or does the painted world run at a different time to the wider world?
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That's because when you wake up Filianore, you aren't technically time traveling, per se. It's more like you're fixing causality. Filianore's sleep keeps the dark at bay, which can mean one of several things.
It could mean that while she's asleep the Age of Fire cannot truly die, which is why an Age of Dark never truly came to pass.
It could just be that she's keeping the Ringed City locked in place chronally, hence why the Ringed City is an actual location and not smushed together like the rest of the Dreg Heap.
Whatever the case, when you wake her up you're not really time-traveling, you're fixing a glitch in the system. What you see once she wakes up is what the world truly looks like at this point: an endless wasteland of barren ash, littered with monuments to the God's glories that now lay in disrepair. It's pretty much a visual equivalent of the Ozymandias poem by Percy Shelley, in that sense.
...Or not, it's Dark Souls, so you can disagree with me and come up with your own view of what the hell is going on. This is just the way I see it.
Maybe the Painted World just operates on a different frame of time owing to it existing as an entirely separate world?
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
I kind of feel like it's a bit of both.
Waking Filianore corrects all the looping decay and reveals the true state of the world, but the painting also runs on a different time as the real world. Just like the outside, it's natural cycle has been interrupted. Time is almost frozen (pardon the pun) by Ariandel's fladgulation. Whether the two worlds were on a different time to each other before, they were stuck at different times, so they're certainly unaligned now.
Speaking of the Painted World, what exactly is Friede's darkfire? Is it connected to humanity/the abyss? Is it some kind of mortal pervertion of the flame? It's one thing I never really figured out (admittedly, didn't look too hard)
- Location
- into cup
I see it happening a lot when the ds2 milieu is discussed, personally. Most recently I saw it happen on page 3 of this thread, when a poster assumed the rat king was being truthful when it said it held eternal and absolute dominion over the underground; the poster then objected that couldn't be right, because surely Nito or the witch of Izalith would have a better claim.
I meant more in the sense that the Undead Crypt, which is an entire area set aside by the worshipers of Nito for the internment of Undead, is literally within the bounds of Drangleic.
EDIT: Well, no, I actually didn't because I hadn't quite thought of pointing that out at the time I mentioned the whole Rat King issue, but there being an active, practicing sect worshiping Nito and dwelling underground does conflict with his claims nonetheless.
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The first reference to "Dark Flames" is Dark Souls 1, with the Black Flame pyromancy found in Ooalacile, which is described as "weighty" and "enough to smack away the mightiest of shields." They are noted to deal physical damage as well, which both is something they shared with Dark Sorceries in the first game, as Dark damage wasn't a thing until Dark Souls II.
This is further expanded upon in Dark Souls III, with Black Flame being described here as "Black flames born from the Abyss bear no shadow. They are said to be the impenetrable fires of humanity." Black Fire Orb is additionally also described as being "weighty." Lastly, the description for Black Serpent reads " Be it sorcery or pyromancy, all techniques that infringe on humanity lead to the same place. That is to say, they all seek a will of their own."
So, what exactly is this? Well, do remember that in Dark Souls, the dark was, just like light, born from the flame. Thus, it seems that humanity has the ability to call upon such "dark flames" for themselves. These flames, like everything born from humanity, seem to possess a will of their own, actively seeking out targets.
Considering the Londor ending, where you straight up steal the First Flame, this seems like it was one of the big reasons Gwyn didn't like humans.
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
While attempting to draw Artorias, I had a realisation.
Since Artorias' fighting style wouldn't change too drastically without his shield, at least not enough that it isn't recognisable, he likely would've done all those crazy agile moves with his massive greatshield.
Forget the Abyss Watchers being crazy, imagine A dude clad in royal blues flipping towards you with a massive sword in one hand and a shield as big as you are in the other. Artorias was hardcore!
Since Artorias' fighting style wouldn't change too drastically without his shield, at least not enough that it isn't recognisable, he likely would've done all those crazy agile moves with his massive greatshield.
Forget the Abyss Watchers being crazy, imagine A dude clad in royal blues flipping towards you with a massive sword in one hand and a shield as big as you are in the other. Artorias was hardcore!
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That's part of why the Abyss Watchers hating shields is a meme.
Because Artorias used one, and it wasn't even some small lightweight shield, but a full greatshield.
Well, greatshield relative to the player's size, at least.
Also, they could be taking their inspiration from Sif's derivation of Artorias's fighting style, which lacked a shield due to the Great Grey Wolf only having one mouth with which to hold an armament.
- Location
- Sydney
I really like the Abyss Watchers, they're one of the more interesting lineage continuations in 3 imo. I like the idea of a group of people stumbling across some nebulous earthing of power in the form of Artorias' soul and getting collectively empowered by it. I think it deepens the lore in interesting ways to have this roving army wandering around and makes for a compelling mental image. I always imagine them in a desert/middle easternish setting for some reason, not sure if that's actually borne out anywhere though.
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
Well they definitely leave a desert of ash in their wake, if that counts.
In terms of who they got their power from, I always saw it as they're just highly devoted people, not soul-strengthened. They're inspired by Artorias' sacrifice and fight to continue where he left off.
If anything, it could be Sif that they learner from, as wetodet suggested. They clearly hold greatwolves in high regard, so who knows? That greatwolf in/near their keep could be Sif or a descendant of Sif. Wouldn't be the only boss you beat in Dark Souls 1 that supposedly survives.
- Location
- Dayton, OH
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, they're heavily implied to have wiped out Carthus of the Sands, Wolnir's desert kingdom.
- Location
- Sydney
Eh, it's fairly clear that there's something screwy going on with their soul. For one thing they all share one soul (ala the four kings), for another its suggested they discovered the 'blood of the wolf' and were bound together and empowered by it. Artorias is referred to as the 'master of the blood of the wolf' in his sword's description while the Soul of the Blood of the Wolf says the Abyss Watchers are one with the soul of the master of the blood. Their cinders also indirectly implies that Artorias might have been strong enough to link the fire on his own but that's a different discussion.
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I don't think they actually share a soul per se, but rather the soul is divided up amongst them. The soul is said to be contained in the Wolf's Blood, which at first everyone just took as a Bloodborne reference (which it was) but it also was a hint at what awaited us in The Ringed City. Anyway, the distinction is important here mostly because they all probably still have their own souls, hence Hawkwood being able to be a deserter. The soul, despite its dilution, is still extremely powerful though, as evidenced by the fact that Phase 1 Watcher can still beat you to death quite easily if you're not careful.
- Location
- The Land of Giant Bush Bunnies
It's essentially many souls coming together to have the strength of one Lord Soul. The Wolf's Blood is probably just a link or the process of linking the flame melded them together to some extent.
They're all just powered up humans that have come together to do something great.
They're all just powered up humans that have come together to do something great.
The Curious Fan
Perpetually sleep deprived
The Farron Ring talks about how it supplements the wolf's blood letting them pull off superhuman feats like their signature style.
The screwy nature of their soul backfired on them in the end too, every bit of the wolf's blood dried up when they linked the fire and Farron never recovered.
Speaking of desert kingdoms, it occurs to me that Carthus is said to have been a desert kingdom, and desert pyromancers exist both in DkS2 and the Dreg Heap, but we never actually see a desert in the games, unless you count the 'massive field of ashes' style from the end of Ringed City or Brume Tower.
Daniel Estacado
ZA WARUDO
I mean Archdragon Peak is kind of a desert. The Painted World of Ariandel is also a desert(there isn't any liquid water, which makes it a desert).
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Wasn't Archdragon Peak originally supposed to be Carthus, before they re-purposed it and just put it on a mountain-top? I remember reading about how in the original design, there was going to be an actual desert area, but it was ultimately scrapped.