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Teach Me the Dark Soul

Random thought. Does anyone else hold the belief that Velka sent the Crow in the beginning of Dark Souls one?

It's her symbol, it brings you to Lordran where you end up killing/punishing the lords of the age for their mistakes.

Oh, and the one thing I really really love about Dark Souls 2 is that the Bearer of the Lord Souls don't even have proper names anymore. They have titles. It isn't until NG+ that you can even properly identify that the souls once belonged to the four lords.
 
Dream Logic said:
Random thought. Does anyone else hold the belief that Velka sent the Crow in the beginning of Dark Souls one?

It's her symbol, it brings you to Lordran where you end up killing/punishing the lords of the age for their mistakes.

Oh, and the one thing I really really love about Dark Souls 2 is that the Bearer of the Lord Souls don't even have proper names anymore. They have titles. It isn't until NG+ that you can even properly identify that the souls once belonged to the four lords.
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Except Seath never had a Lord Soul of his own and yet is still part of the Great Soul set.
I mean, he did get a fragment of Gwyn's, but then again so did the Four Kings, who are, notably, not present in DkS2's set of four pseudo-Lords.
 
wetodet said:
Except Seath never had a Lord Soul of his own and yet is still part of the Great Soul set.
I mean, he did get a fragment of Gwyn's, but then again so did the Four Kings, who are, notably, not present in DkS2's set of four pseudo-Lords.
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Narratively his soul is separated by the fact it's container is properly named and how we have a conversation explicitly talking about how he will always come back. Not the soul. Seethe. Which also fits with Scholar given how Aldia specifically talks about seeking true immortality free of the cycle.
 
Dream Logic said:
Narratively his soul is separated by the fact it's container is properly named and how we have a conversation explicitly talking about how he will always come back. Not the soul. Seethe. Which also fits with Scholar given how Aldia specifically talks about seeking true immortality free of the cycle.
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...is there a reason you keep spelling it 'Seethe'? Autocorrect?
In any case, there's also the bit where Gwyn doesn't drop a Lord Soul and therefore can be assumed not to have had it in his possession at the time of his death, and that 'not the soul' bit raises the question of why Seath didn't, well, actually come back in either 2 or 3, instead having a soul that wasn't technically his stuck in a spider and then merely being referenced with Oceiros.
EDit: And besides that, weren't all the Lord Souls that the Chosen could acquire returned to the First Flame by way of the Lordvessel?
 
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Dream Logic said:
Random thought. Does anyone else hold the belief that Velka sent the Crow in the beginning of Dark Souls one?

It's her symbol, it brings you to Lordran where you end up killing/punishing the lords of the age for their mistakes.

Oh, and the one thing I really really love about Dark Souls 2 is that the Bearer of the Lord Souls don't even have proper names anymore. They have titles. It isn't until NG+ that you can even properly identify that the souls once belonged to the four lords.
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This is just my personal opinion, but I feel like a lot of theories that involve Velka are really trying to draw big conclusions from very little evidence. Velka is an interesting character with some pretty significant, in particular, to the Painted World, but she is still largely a minor character.
Besides, most of the Lords you kill in the game are already being punished as a direct result of their own hubris. Gwyn and the Witch of Izalith are essentially mercy killings by the time the Chosen Undead comes around.

wetodet said:
...is there a reason you keep spelling it 'Seethe'? Autocorrect?
In any case, there's also the bit where Gwyn doesn't drop a Lord Soul and therefore can be assumed not to have had it in his possession at the time of his death, and that 'not the soul' bit raises the question of why Seath didn't, well, actually come back in either 2 or 3, instead having a soul that wasn't technically his stuck in a spider and then merely being referenced with Oceiros.
EDit: And besides that, weren't all the Lord Souls that the Chosen could acquire returned to the First Flame by way of the Lordvessel?
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This is incorrect. You get Gwyn's Soul after you kill him.
 
Roland-Hur said:
This is just my personal opinion, but I feel like a lot of theories that involve Velka are really trying to draw big conclusions from very little evidence. Velka is an interesting character with some pretty significant, in particular, to the Painted World, but she is still largely a minor character.
Besides, most of the Lords you kill in the game are already being punished as a direct result of their own hubris. Gwyn and the Witch of Izalith are essentially mercy killings by the time the Chosen Undead comes around.



This is incorrect. You get Gwyn's Soul after you kill him.
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Yes, you get what is specifically noted as the soul of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder. It is not a Lord Soul, either mechanically [not a key item, can be used for either souls, crafting, or exchanged at the Sunlight Altar] nor is it referred to as such by either its name or its description. It resembles a Lord Soul, certainly, but it is never stated to be one. Indeed, no proper Lord Soul actually features the name of the Lord in its item name.
 
wetodet said:
Yes, you get what is specifically noted as the soul of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder. It is not a Lord Soul, either mechanically [not a key item, can be used for either souls, crafting, or exchanged at the Sunlight Altar] nor is it referred to as such by either its name or its description. It resembles a Lord Soul, certainly, but it is never stated to be one. Indeed, no proper Lord Soul actually features the name of the Lord in its item name.
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But that doesn't really make sense if you read the item description of Lord Gwyn's soul:
Soul of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder
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Soul of Gywn, Lord of Sunlight and Cinder, who linked the First Flame.
Lord Gywn bequeathed most of his power to the Gods, and burned as a cinder for the First Flame, but even so, Lord Gywn's soul is a powerful thing indeed.
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Emphasis mine. The Lord Soul fragments you get from Seath and the Four Kings is called Bequeathed Lord Soul Shard for a reason. Why make a distinction that the Soul Gwyn drops isn't a Lord Soul?
 
Roland-Hur said:
But that doesn't really make sense if you read the item description of Lord Gwyn's soul:


Emphasis mine. The Lord Soul fragments you get from Seath and the Four Kings is called Bequeathed Lord Soul Shard for a reason. Why make a distinction that the Soul Gwyn drops isn't a Lord Soul?
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...Because, unlike every other example of a Lord Soul we see, this one is named in a different format and has different mechanics?
 
wetodet said:
...Because, unlike every other example of a Lord Soul we see, this one is named in a different format and has different mechanics?
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Gameplay and Story Segregation is still a thing.
One more item description then:
Crown of the Great Lord
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Crown of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder, who linked the First Flame.Lord Gwyn, bearer of the ultimate soul, divided that power among his great clan before linking the flame. But he did keep his crown, perhaps to preserve a symbol of the monarch, for its actual power had fully subsided.
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Emphasis mine again. Gwyn's soul that he drops when you defeat him is in fact a Lord Soul, nothing in lore suggests otherwise.
 
Roland-Hur said:
Gameplay and Story Segregation is still a thing.
One more item description then:

Emphasis mine again. Gwyn's soul that he drops when you defeat him is in fact a Lord Soul, nothing in lore suggests otherwise.
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...Except that reads to me as saying that basically every god now has at least some of Gwyn's Lord Soul, and he kept none for himself?
It even prefixes the bit about keeping his crown with a 'but', and ends it with 'for that power had fully subsided'.
Edit: Which raises a parallel with the Pygmy, come to think of it.
 
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wetodet said:
...Except that reads to me as saying that basically every god now has at least some of Gwyn's Lord Soul, and he kept none for himself?
It even prefixes the bit about keeping his crown with a 'but', and ends it with 'for that power had fully subsided'.
Edit: Which raises a parallel with the Pygmy, come to think of it.
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I'm honestly not sure what I'm even arguing anymore. I think what I was trying to get at was that the Soul Gwyn drops when you beat him is technically a Lord Soul or at least a fragment of one. Much in the same way Humanity is a fragment of the original Dark Soul/Lord Soul of the Furtive Pygmy. I apologize for making things needlessly confusing.

But yeah, that is a pretty neat parallel. Gwyn basically came to the same conclusion that the Furtive Pygmy came to.
 
AClassyBunny said:
Also, what of Yorshka in DS3? She seems more human sized that Priscilla, so maybe she's half human instead of half god? I don't think her calling Gwyndolin "brother" (swear I heard her say it, but can't find it in her dialogue on the wiki) is a literal thing, more of an adopted brother. Maybe he found her in Seath's archives and took her in as a fellow abomination?
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No one's 100% sure. Last time I checked things were divided between: Another Seath experiment before he died that Gwyndolin found, Nameless/Gwynevere just dumped her on Gwyndolin and ran, she really is Gwyn's kid and Gwyndolin getting together with Priscilla at some point.
 
Does anyone know why Aldrich linked the fire? I was initially under the impression that he was forced into it, but it seems like he was in total control of the surrounding area at the time of his first death.

Also, is the Deep in the Cathedral of the Deep the same as the one in his prophesized Age Of The Deep Sea?
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Also, is the Deep in the Cathedral of the Deep the same as the one in his prophesized Age Of The Deep Sea?
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The Age of The Deep Sea predicted by Aldrich is a massive stagnant body of liquefied human remains, with the souls of humans floating within it, and all the heaviest bits, the "soul dregs" settling at the bottom.

Basically, Evangelion style Instrumentality, with a disgusting new grape flavor.

The Deep at the Cathedral of the Deep was originally a very deep but otherwise normal body of water that was seen as a holy site, thus the construction of a Cathedral there. However, at some point people started dumping bodies and other shit in it, causing it to take on physical properties similar to those of Aldrichs's Deep Sea. This prompted his followers to take it over and make it their holy site.
 
DualFront said:
This prompted his followers to take it over and make it their holy site.
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"This place is absolutely disgusting... I want it."

I can't really imagine the Decons that followed Aldrich were too sound of mind if they're following a literal man eater and feeding loads of orphins to him (Poor Anri and Horace...)
 
AClassyBunny said:
"This place is absolutely disgusting... I want it."

I can't really imagine the Decons that followed Aldrich were too sound of mind if they're following a literal man eater and feeding loads of orphins to him (Poor Anri and Horace...)
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Considering that they join in on the cannibalism, hell no they aren't sound of mind.
 
Huh, I was looking into Londor and the Stable Church and made some intresting connections.

The Angelic Faith is clearly a major faction in the Lothric Civil War, as shown by the presence of the Winged Knights. Obviously, just because they're fighting against the pro-fire linking faction doesn't mean they want the flame to fade, even if there's some evidence to suggest they've formed a (possibly somewhat situational) alliance with the Princes' forces who want to let the fire fade.

It's pretty obvious Londor and their Stable Church want to bring about the Age of Dark, but the Pilgrims are what become the Angels/Butterflies, as shown in The Ringed City. Does this imply that the Angels are working to let the flame die in the same way the Princes' are?

There's some oddities about it though, like the defenses outside of the Princes' chamber facing the direction of a pair of Winged Knights, but that could just be a general defense or to stop the Ashen One. There's also those npc invaders there that could be a possible threat, but I can't remember anything about them.

I'm pretty sure I had a point besides "are the Angels anti-flame" when I started typing, but I forgot if I did, so...
Thoughts?
 
AClassyBunny said:
Huh, I was looking into Londor and the Stable Church and made some intresting connections.

The Angelic Faith is clearly a major faction in the Lothric Civil War, as shown by the presence of the Winged Knights. Obviously, just because they're fighting against the pro-fire linking faction doesn't mean they want the flame to fade, even if there's some evidence to suggest they've formed a (possibly somewhat situational) alliance with the Princes' forces who want to let the fire fade.

It's pretty obvious Londor and their Stable Church want to bring about the Age of Dark, but the Pilgrims are what become the Angels/Butterflies, as shown in The Ringed City. Does this imply that the Angels are working to let the flame die in the same way the Princes' are?

There's some oddities about it though, like the defenses outside of the Princes' chamber facing the direction of a pair of Winged Knights, but that could just be a general defense or to stop the Ashen One. There's also those npc invaders there that could be a possible threat, but I can't remember anything about them.

I'm pretty sure I had a point besides "are the Angels anti-flame" when I started typing, but I forgot if I did, so...
Thoughts?
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I'll also note that the Castle is basically infested with Deep cultists [specifically the knights that guard the Cathedral], as well as enemies from the Road of Sacrifices, though most of them are in the Royal Gardens.
So they're either infiltrating the place or interfering on one side's behalf, though since aggression between enemies is mostly unused it's hard to tell.
 
wetodet said:
So they're either infiltrating the place or interfering on one side's behalf, though since aggression between enemies is mostly unused it's hard to tell.
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Well either way, they're certainly not on the side of the High Priestess. If an assumption that they still follow Aldrich is correct (can't remember if they don't) then they'd be sided with Aldrich's ally Sulyvahn and his outrider knights. Not sure which side that alliance would fall on in the civil war, but I belief they're against lighting the flame. (correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I actually went through DS3)

This civil war has way too many factions, most of which seem to be against the Three Pillars. Kinda an impressive feat that they can stand up against so many opposing forces.



Edit: Wait, which knights are you refering to? The only knights I can remember in the Cathedral of the Deep are the Cathedral Knights and I don't remember them being in Lothric. Do you mean the Lothric knights like the ones on the stairs between Vordt and Emma/the Danger?
 
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AClassyBunny said:
Well either way, they're certainly not on the side of the High Priestess. If an assumption that they still follow Aldrich is correct (can't remember if they don't) then they'd be sided with Aldrich's ally Sulyvahn and his outrider knights. Not sure which side that alliance would fall on in the civil war, but I belief they're against lighting the flame. (correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I actually went through DS3)

This civil war has way too many factions, most of which seem to be against the Three Pillars. Kinda an impressive feat that they can stand up against so many opposing forces.



Edit: Wait, which knights are you refering to? The only knights I can remember in the Cathedral of the Deep are the Cathedral Knights and I don't remember them being in Lothric. Do you mean the Lothric knights like the ones on the stairs between Vordt and Emma/the Danger?
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There are a bunch of Cathedral Knights guarding the path to Oceiros' boss room.
 
(Okay, let's not get overly excited about being noticed by one of the QMs that inspired me to start my own quest :oops:)

RecurringExtra said:
Just going to link this bit because I wrote it a while back and I may as well if there's a souls lore thread.
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That was a pretty interesting read, definately better critical analysis than 99% of my school and univeristy essays...
Aldia seems to propose some interesting ideas. I've always seen the Abyss as pretty much just the worst, most extreme parts of humanity, so the idea that it's so horrible when it emerges is due to it violently bursting out from a seal makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand, I did find Yuria's usurption path to be the most "right" in the grand scheme of Age of Dragons > Age of Fire > Age of Dark. That belief did waver when I found out she was working with the Serpants, who prove to be less than trustworthy in Dark Souls 1.

Admittably, almost everything I know about Dark Souls 2 lore comes from the discussions on the Blue Ash thread, so I've been grasping at threads based just on what I know from DS1 and DS3, plus Vaati's prepare to cry videos.
 
AClassyBunny said:
(Okay, let's not get overly excited about being noticed by one of the QMs that inspired me to start my own quest :oops:)
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Wait, I inspired you? Huh, didn't expect that one to be honest, but thank you. I really need to get back to work on it soon...

AClassyBunny said:
That was a pretty interesting read, definately better critical analysis than 99% of my school and univeristy essays...
Aldia seems to propose some interesting ideas. I've always seen the Abyss as pretty much just the worst, most extreme parts of humanity, so the idea that it's so horrible when it emerges is due to it violently bursting out from a seal makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand, I did find Yuria's usurption path to be the most "right" in the grand scheme of Age of Dragons > Age of Fire > Age of Dark. That belief did waver when I found out she was working with the Serpants, who prove to be less than trustworthy in Dark Souls 1.

Admittably, almost everything I know about Dark Souls 2 lore comes from the discussions on the Blue Ash thread, so I've been grasping at threads based just on what I know from DS1 and DS3, plus Vaati's prepare to cry videos.
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Dark Souls II lore is one of the best examples of a slapdash half finished product working a lot better than it has any right to. So much random stuff that's completely unimportant (like there are Dwarves for some reason, who are never brought up again because they're completely irrelevant), and yet there's some stuff that actually worked surprisingly well, at least once Scholar came out and they managed to make something coherent out of the whole mess.

Before that it was a big pile of ooga-booga vague nonsense, which is part of where DSII's bad rap in terms of lore comes from, since nothing was explained because it was all ancient and nobody remembered it or other such things. That element is still present in the game, but it's not as bad as it was before, which I think is saying something because it's still present enough to be a bit of an issue at times. The biggest thing about DSII that separates it though is that it's more of a personal story than the other two games, and because of that it's overall not really as "important" to the overall story. It really just serves the purpose of being an example of what things were like between the DS1 and DS3, as things just got progressively worse and worse. So because of that it has a lot of interesting bits, but it really comes across more as flavor than anything else, which is really what it is: it's not central to the understanding of the series, but it does a good job expanding on it.

Just pretend there never were any Dwarves, or Gyrm I think they're called. While it would've been interesting to see what Shibuya had planned for the game originally, from what I've heard it didn't really fit well into the Souls series, hence why Tanimura was given the job of shoving everything together to make something coherent.
 
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