Teach Me the Dark Soul

I know I said I wasn't qualified, but since we actually are discussing the whole 'interplay between Dark and hollowing' thing I'll bring these back up.
Hollowing isn't caused by excess Dark, it's caused by insufficiency in anything else. Thus, when you burn Humanity, you're letting it fill you up, thus making you no longer Hollow.

Meanwhile, Manus and the Abyss seems to be a weird case. The way I see it is that when the Darksign is "overloaded" by too much Humanity, it fails to keep it contained, and this causes it to essentially break down. When this happens, the release of so much dark so suddenly mutates everything in the area, hence why Manus went full Handgorilla.
Another way it could be viewed is that accessing the Abyss used to be something instinctual for Humanity, before Gwyn had it sealed away. So when Manus channeled the power of the Abyss, everyone in the area, now cut off and no longer part of the Abyss, was changed by it into grotesque creatures. This one has some problems with it, such as Manus most likely being able to channel the Abyss safely already if he were a pygmy.
 
I know I said I wasn't qualified, but since we actually are discussing the whole 'interplay between Dark and hollowing' thing I'll bring these back up.
EDIT: Also, Gwyn's relationship with humans is a bit more complex than 'oppressor and oppressed' considering he, uh, handed over a large chunk of his Lord Soul to the Four Kings.

Empowering the four kings to act in his stead doesn't make Gwyn a not-oppressor.
I'm not a gifted student of history or anything, but isn't that what colonial administrations did all the time? Recruit parts of the local population in order to help facilitate putting the boot down on the rest?

Edit: And its not like Gwyn is above using one hated enemy to destroy/suppress another one. Darkeater Midir for example.
 
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Empowering the four kings to act in his stead doesn't make Gwyn a not-oppressor.
I'm not a gifted student of history or anything, but isn't that what colonial administrations did all the time? Recruit parts of the local population in order to help facilitate putting the boot down on the rest? Also something something Dark Souls is an analogy to Late-Stage Capitalism.
I never really liked the Capitalism analogue. Always feelt a bit forced to me, but that's just my personal view.

Also, Gwyn's relationship with humans is a bit more complex than 'oppressor and oppressed' considering he, uh, handed over a large chunk of his Lord Soul to the Four Kings.

But yeah, even if Gwyn actually liked the Four Kings, and empowered them because he thought they were swell dudes that would do a good job, that doesn't change the fact that he didn't like Humanity. What it does establish is that Gwyn is not, in fact, a cartoon villain who twists his mustache laughing maniacally while having all the depth of a cardboard cut out. He didn't really hate Humanity. Gwyn, for all of his flaws, was simply scared. Humanity scared him. He was legitimately afraid of Humans, and the potential damage they could cause to what he viewed as his world. His greatest fear was that what he accomplished would be forgotten if the Humans took over.
So he decided to make sure that nobody could ever forget what he had done, by forever changing the world.
 
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A rather minor theory/observation, but I thought I should share. It regards the the armor that Slave Knights such as Gael wore:

The description of how the skin of the slave knights was "charred black" kind of reminds me of how Gwyn's Silver Knights became Black Knights as a result of fighting the Chaos Demons:
I always thought it was meant to be that happened during the war against the dragons. The fire everlasting fire of the dragons burns hot, after all.

Gwyn's seal of fire fades along with the first flame. The dark sign is the broken remnants of that seal.
I imagine the seal is the Dark escaping. It's appearance signifies the darkness within someone reaching an expreme level and is starting to overflow. The fire around the edge is the magic Gwyn used to supress the darkness and even the very world itself attempting to hold it back, but nothing can stop the endless black.
Even the sun becoming a dark sign follows this. It takes the form of a massive hole in the light, the fire concentrating around it in attempt to suppress the dark's spread. The sun is the greatest symbol of Gwyn's splender and might, now swallowed by the embodiment of his own tyrannies.

Empowering the four kings to act in his stead doesn't make Gwyn a not-oppressor.
I'm not a gifted student of history or anything, but isn't that what colonial administrations did all the time? Recruit parts of the local population in order to help facilitate putting the boot down on the rest?
It was basically giving the leaders of humanity a reason to surpress their own. If humanity ever truely turned on Gwyn's light as he feared they would, the Four Kings would be the closest focus of their wrath for collaborating with the gods, betrayers of their own people. Hense, they supress the truth out of fear that they'll lose the power tey've gained in the same way Gwyn does.

He didn't really hate Humanity. Gwyn, for all of his flaws, was simply scared. Humanity scared him. He was legitimately afraid of Humans, and the potential damage they could cause to what he viewed as his world. His greatest fear was that what he accomplished would be forgotten if the Humans took over.
So he decided to make sure that nobody could ever forget what he had done, by forever changing the world.
I like how Vaati put it that he was unable to accept the natural order of things, despite even the remaining dragons doing so. He couldn't come to terms with his age, that he fought so hard for, eventually transitioning into the next one, led by lesser beings. He made the entire world focused around him and his worship, hiding the fact that it's all to stave off the natural flow of time.
 
Interrsting thought I just had:
I've heard a lot of theories that Gwynevere's Rosaria, that she's the queen of Lothric, etc.
No one's mentioning the other female god that we know is part of the royal family...

The Pontiff Sulyvahn bestowed a double-slashing sword upon a distant daughter of the formal royal family, ordering her to serve first as a dancer, and then as an outrider knight, the equivalent to exile.

The Dancer of the Borial Valley.
 
Interrsting thought I just had:
I've heard a lot of theories that Gwynevere's Rosaria, that she's the queen of Lothric, etc.
No one's mentioning the other female god that we know is part of the royal family...



The Dancer of the Borial Valley.
Honestly, no matter your opinions on the Gods, Sulyvahn and Aldrich have a lot to answer for, both as regards Anor Londo and for the crimes of the Deep cult in general.
 
Honestly, no matter your opinions on the Gods, Sulyvahn and Aldrich have a lot to answer for, both as regards Anor Londo and for the crimes of the Deep cult in general.
Oh yeah, big time. The Deep Duo are pretty much the real villains of DS3, which leaves Sullyvahn's random appearance in the middle of the game a bit disappointing, but at least he has Jojo powers. But as awful as they are, the characters are both interesting.
Sullyvahn is a crazy power hungry bird-tree-man and I love him for it.
Aldritch is an ugly blob of slime, and is therefore significantly less loved. Dude went around eating people, and somehow got strong enough that the solution to getting rid of him became "throw him into the fire I guess?"
And it worked.
Maybe Patches kicked him down into it, I dunno.
Interrsting thought I just had:
I've heard a lot of theories that Gwynevere's Rosaria, that she's the queen of Lothric, etc.
No one's mentioning the other female god that we know is part of the royal family...



The Dancer of the Borial Valley.
As for the Dancer, seeing as she's a distant daughter, it's more likely she's one of Gwynevere's (presumed to be many) children.
 
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As for the Dancer, seeing as she's a distant daughter, it's more likely she's one of Gwynevere's (presumed to be many) children.
Yeah, it was just a funny thought I had.
I personally subscribe to the theory that Gwynevere did indeed become the queen of Lothric, later becoming Rosaria. There's just too much evidence pointing to it, in my opinion.
 
Yeah, it was just a funny thought I had.
I personally subscribe to the theory that Gwynevere did indeed become the queen of Lothric, later becoming Rosaria. There's just too much evidence pointing to it, in my opinion.
I personally don't like the idea of her being Gertrude, mostly because one of the defining characteristic of Gwynevere is her physical absence. There are bits and pieces of info about her scattered around, but nobody has any idea what actually happened with her. She basically shows up in random places, becomes royalty, and then ditches when everything goes to shit (which it always seems to). I prefer the idea that Rosaria is just another one of Gwynevere's descendants, maybe even a direct daughter, that she essentially discarded. She was the one who took after her Father in that regard.

The Firstborn was too sentimental and became friendly with a bunch of giant lizards who he was supposed to hate, but he took after Gwyn in physical might.
Gwyndolin, ironically, took after Gwyn the least, despite being the most dedicated of his children (Hard to count Fillianoire seeing as she's literally asleep). Which is fitting in a way, since he represents the Moon, which while reflecting the Sun's light, is ultimately its own planetary body entirely.

That all said, Gertrude being Gwynevere is a perfectly understandable conclusion, but I just find it unsatisfying :V
 
Gwyndolin, ironically, took after Gwyn the least, despite being the most dedicated of his children (Hard to count Fillianoire seeing as she's literally asleep). Which is fitting in a way, since he represents the Moon, which while reflecting the Sun's light, is ultimately its own planetary body entirely.

Yeah, Gwyndolin's story is probably one of the most overall depressing.
He was born small and probably frail compared to his nightly father and brother, along with being of questionable gender balances (well, if his model having breasts is canon). He was always overshadowed by his elder siblings and himself claims to be hideous.
The snakes give me the sense that Seathe experimented on him in some way, probably another attempt at immortality.
He alone remained in Anor London once all else had abbandon it, even Ornstein left his post eventually.
He found and adopted Yorshka somewhere, but then comes Sulyvahn, who enslaves the city and locks the away from each other to await Aldrich's unquenchable hunger.

Him being the moon is a perfect representation of his story: a smaller, often forgotten child who will never live up to the majesty of the sun, no matter how hard he tries.
 
Yeah, Gwyndolin's story is probably one of the most overall depressing.
He was born small and probably frail compared to his nightly father and brother, along with being of questionable gender balances (well, if his model having breasts is canon). He was always overshadowed by his elder siblings and himself claims to be hideous.
The snakes give me the sense that Seathe experimented on him in some way, probably another attempt at immortality.
He alone remained in Anor London once all else had abbandon it, even Ornstein left his post eventually.
He found and adopted Yorshka somewhere, but then comes Sulyvahn, who enslaves the city and locks the away from each other to await Aldrich's unquenchable hunger.

Him being the moon is a perfect representation of his story: a smaller, often forgotten child who will never live up to the majesty of the sun, no matter how hard he tries.
Do keep in mind that, despite this weakness, Gwyndolin was the one to actually succeed Gwyn as Lord of the Gods (At least according to the direct Japanese translation, so it's arguable whether you consider it true or not). So technically he's the success story, seeing as his siblings are:
A: a lazy lizard hermit
B: 18 "different" fertility goddesses
C: Literally asleep at the opposite end of reality.

Of course, this success led to him getting eaten by a giant slime dude and digested for a thousands years, but hey, like father, somewhat vaguely like son.

He might have had Smough to keep him company depending on how you read it.
For all his flaws (of which he had many) Smough proved to be the most loyal of all of Gwyn's servants. His own daughter ran away almost immediately, but Smough stayed. Ornstein, the leader of the Four Knights, eventually decided that staying accomplished nothing, and that he'd rather choose his loyalty to the Firstborn over his service to Gwyn. And yet Smough stayed. Eventually, the Silver Knights hollowed, and Anor Londo became known as Irithyl, as the city (somehow) sunk into a valley, and it's origins began to be forgotten.

Yet Smough still did not abandon his post. Not even when everyone else had betrayed his Lord, and Aldrich had come to devour Gwyndolin, the only one who tried to bar the way was Smough.

He may have been a shitbag of a person, but god damn was he dedicated.
 
Is there any lore reason to fight Gwyn's oldest son? It doesn't seem like he's hurting anyone, so I can never bring myself to go out of my way to seek him out.
 
Is there any lore reason to fight Gwyn's oldest son? It doesn't seem like he's hurting anyone, so I can never bring myself to go out of my way to seek him out.
There are a few I can think of, though none are particularly good reasons, mind you.

  1. The Ashen One needs as much delicious souly goodness as possible for when they link the fire, and the Nameless King has a whole bunch of that.
  2. Dude's fine with sitting out on a mountain-top with a bunch of lizards while the rest of the world falls apart, rather than try and help anyone.
  3. He's a God of War, so he most likely is accepting your challenge when you fight him.
  4. Because the Ashen One is kind of a dick (Your job is to literally force four people, or technically three since one is willing, to burn themselves to death again when they evidently have no desire to do so, along with two other people who may or may not have done so already; it's still debated to this day) so what's one more awful decision to add to the list?

For the most part though, there isn't really a good reason to fight him, seeing as he's chilling out on a mountain in the middle of bumfuck nowhere minding his own business.
 
There are a few I can think of, though none are particularly good reasons, mind you.

  1. The Ashen One needs as much delicious souly goodness as possible for when they link the fire, and the Nameless King has a whole bunch of that.
  2. Dude's fine with sitting out on a mountain-top with a bunch of lizards while the rest of the world falls apart, rather than try and help anyone.
  3. He's a God of War, so he most likely is accepting your challenge when you fight him.
  4. Because the Ashen One is kind of a dick (Your job is to literally force four people, or technically three since one is willing, to burn themselves to death again when they evidently have no desire to do so, along with two other people who may or may not have done so already; it's still debated to this day) so what's one more awful decision to add to the list?

For the most part though, there isn't really a good reason to fight him, seeing as he's chilling out on a mountain in the middle of bumfuck nowhere minding his own business.
To be fair, one of those people you're forcing to burn himself to death is Aldrich, who self-evidently deserves whatever level of pain he gets from it - which isn't actually guaranteed to be any, as neither the Ashen One nor the Chosen Undead actually displays a pain reaction when linking the fire, and the Chosen Undead looks at their hand in what might well be surprise that it isn't actually hurting during that ending.
 
To be fair, one of those people you're forcing to burn himself to death is Aldrich, who self-evidently deserves whatever level of pain he gets from it - which isn't actually guaranteed to be any, as neither the Ashen One nor the Chosen Undead actually displays a pain reaction when linking the fire, and the Chosen Undead looks at their hand in what might well be surprise that it isn't actually hurting during that ending.
Even if it isn't painful, it most certainly is not a pleasant experience overall.
 
To be fair, one of those people you're forcing to burn himself to death is Aldrich, who self-evidently deserves whatever level of pain he gets from it - which isn't actually guaranteed to be any, as neither the Ashen One nor the Chosen Undead actually displays a pain reaction when linking the fire, and the Chosen Undead looks at their hand in what might well be surprise that it isn't actually hurting during that ending.
Ludleth's nightmare murmerings gives a pretty strong case for it hurting quite a lot. Pretty sure he says something about being in constant agony while awake at some point, too (although I might be mistaken on that bit)

The other lords refused to relight the flame for a reason. Besides Aldrich, none of them really had anything to go back to upon awakening. Yhorm's kingdom lies in ruins, his people chared corpses, leaving him to sit alone surrounded by proof that those who doubted him were right.
The Abyss Watchers swore their lives to fighting the Abyss, which is the natural opposite of the flame.

The only reason that seems logical for them to refuse is that it was so impossibly painful that they would never do it again.
 
Is there any lore reason to fight Gwyn's oldest son? It doesn't seem like he's hurting anyone, so I can never bring myself to go out of my way to seek him out.
There probably would have been a reason tied up in the god grave stuff when he was mandatory but that's cut content.
The Abyss Watchers swore their lives to fighting the Abyss, which is the natural opposite of the flame.

The only reason that seems logical for them to refuse is that it was so impossibly painful that they would never do it again.
They might have decided to visit their old house and found out what happened when they linked it.
 
Actually, if you look at their capes, they appear to be visibly Abyss-corrupted themselves.
The most common theory I've heard on this is that the Red-Eyed Watchers are corrupted by the Abyss, while the others (well, there's only one by the time you arrive) are fighting to keep them down. It's rather fitting, seeing as they're a group of humans who always were essentially fighting against themselves; only now it's literal rather than figurative.

On that note, just imagine how hilarious the entire Undead Legion of Farron must've been back in the day. Take the first phase of the fight, and then multiply it by every single corpse lying on the ground, and that's what fighting the Abyss Watchers was like. Not to mention that even when you did kill them, they'd just reappear at a bonfire and run back to rejoin their unit. The best part of it all is that the Abyss Watchers were only one of the groups that made up the whole organization. There were the Followers, the Watchdogs, and some sort of mage group that isn't really elaborated on much. It's no surprise they could destroy entire countries, considering all that they had going for them.
 
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The most common theory I've heard on this is that the Red-Eyed Watchers are corrupted by the Abyss, while the others (well, there's only one by the time you arrive) are fighting to keep them down.
The red eyes being Abyss corruption doesn't make sense when you look at the others times it shows up. The specific example I'm this king are the blue Lothric Knights. Most, if not all, have red eyes, yet at least the ones outside the princes seem to be completely fine in terms of the abyss.

It's rather fitting, seeing as they're a group of humans who always were essentially fighting against themselves; only now it's literal rather than figurative.
I mean, technically they always had been in a literal sense, seeing as the followers were taking out the darkness-fallen watchers.

It's no surprise they could destroy entire countries, considering all that they had going for them.
You can just imagine how batshit terrified places would've been upon realising they had signs of POSSIBLE Abyssal taint. The slightest mention if it reaches the Watchers' ears and they're off to slaughter everyone without remorse.
It really is a paranoia-warped version of what Artorias did.
 
The red eyes being Abyss corruption doesn't make sense when you look at the others times it shows up. The specific example I'm this king are the blue Lothric Knights. Most, if not all, have red eyes, yet at least the ones outside the princes seem to be completely fine in terms of the abyss.
Looking it up, it seems that testing done with weapons shows it isn't necessarily an indicator of it, so you are right on that point. However, it doesn't really make much sense as to why the Watchers would lock themselves in a room and murder each other endlessly unless they actually had a reason to.

You can just imagine how batshit terrified places would've been upon realising they had signs of POSSIBLE Abyssal taint. The slightest mention if it reaches the Watchers' ears and they're off to slaughter everyone without remorse.
It really is a paranoia-warped version of what Artorias did.
The first hint of the Abyss appearing and you just have a bunch of insane murderhobos show up doing sword flips on your populace.

As a side note, I love the contrast between the Abyss Watchers with their fancy ass greatsword dagger flip fiesta, and the Followers, whose most exciting weapon is a fucking torch.
 
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