Teach Me the Dark Soul

Wasn't Archdragon Peak originally supposed to be Carthus, before they re-purposed it and just put it on a mountain-top? I remember reading about how in the original design, there was going to be an actual desert area, but it was ultimately scrapped.
Ah, so the same way the original Painted World [that is, Ariamis] was originally intended to be Nito's area, but was repurposed to have Priscilla locked in there after the switch in plotlines?
Speaking of Nito, what exactly is the canon term for reanimated skeletons and other things that would normally be termed 'undead' if it weren't for that specifically referring to those bearing the Darksign in DkS? Is it 'the dead,' after his whole 'first of the dead' title, or something else?
 
If I recall correctly, the skeletons are animated by magic and necromancers, they aren't true undead because they lack the Darksign, and were animated by someone else.
 
I don't think it's ever really addressed what exactly reanimated skeletons actually are beyond just bones and magic, as @Daniel Estacado said. So perhaps Nito's power over death allowed him to animate corpses, which made him basically a pseudo-necromancer, and then necromancy was born from Nito having his power stolen? I dunno, that's the best I can come up with at the moment.
 
If I recall correctly, the skeletons are animated by magic and necromancers, they aren't true undead because they lack the Darksign, and were animated by someone else.
I don't think it's ever really addressed what exactly reanimated skeletons actually are beyond just bones and magic, as @Daniel Estacado said. So perhaps Nito's power over death allowed him to animate corpses, which made him basically a pseudo-necromancer, and then necromancy was born from Nito having his power stolen? I dunno, that's the best I can come up with at the moment.
Well, yeah, I knew both of those things - I was asking if anyone knew what the in-universe term for them is, besides 'skeleton.'
 
99% of the problems in Dark Souls summed up in one sentence. I've noticed most of the shitty thingsin DS1 besides Abyss stuff is either the fault of Gwyn or Seath.

Even the abyss stuff is Gwyn's fault.

It's just gonna keep getting worse until the age of dark happens like it was supposed too.

The "Deep" is the deepest layers of abyss where its fucking festered and grown more corrupted over time.

It's like shaking a soda can, everytime the fire is linked, the pressure gets greater, even tiny openings (like the fire weakening) result in massive outpourings of ever more violent abyss by the time of dark souls three.

Thats my personal view of it.
 
I don't think they actually share a soul per se, but rather the soul is divided up amongst them. The soul is said to be contained in the Wolf's Blood, which at first everyone just took as a Bloodborne reference (which it was) but it also was a hint at what awaited us in The Ringed City. Anyway, the distinction is important here mostly because they all probably still have their own souls, hence Hawkwood being able to be a deserter. The soul, despite its dilution, is still extremely powerful though, as evidenced by the fact that Phase 1 Watcher can still beat you to death quite easily if you're not careful.

Just want to point out that even the new painted world is reference to bloodborne.

Because its a world... Born from Blood.

The blood of The Dark Soul to Be specific.

And well Bloodborne while its own thing, you can clearly trace its descent from dark souls if you've played both games.
 
Just want to point out that even the new painted world is reference to bloodborne.

Because its a world... Born from Blood.

The blood of The Dark Soul to Be specific.

And well Bloodborne while its own thing, you can clearly trace its descent from dark souls if you've played both games.
I agree with you on both counts there. It's definitely a reference, but saying that the painting itself is what leads to Bloodborne is a bit of a stretch. The two games are much separate things.

Anyhow, what do people think the Sun actually is in Dark Souls? It's probably just Gwyn's big magic lightning ball in the sky or something, but there has to be more to it then just that and it's meme status.
 
I agree with you on both counts there. It's definitely a reference, but saying that the painting itself is what leads to Bloodborne is a bit of a stretch. The two games are much separate things.

Anyhow, what do people think the Sun actually is in Dark Souls? It's probably just Gwyn's big magic lightning ball in the sky or something, but there has to be more to it then just that and it's meme status.

Oh i never said that the painting was literally the world of bloodborne.

It's more figuratively, representing the games miyazaki has made that are clearly descended from dark souls but have there own identity all the same.

Both bloodborne and sekiro are figuratively worlds "Borne of the blood of the Dark soul."

in that they are games that are descended from the mechanical formula and game play of the dark souls series.
 
Anyhow, what do people think the Sun actually is in Dark Souls? It's probably just Gwyn's big magic lightning ball in the sky or something, but there has to be more to it then just that and it's meme status.
Logical answer would be probably just Gwyn giving humans and lesser gods' another reason to love him. He put a big fireball in the sky to spread his light to all corners of the world and act as a reminder to how much everyone needs him.

Less logical answer for discussion sake: could it be THE first flame? I can't imagine Gwyn would want to just leave such an important and powerful thing laying around where anyone can get to it. Plus, it does always seem to be relevant to the linking of the flame (at least in DS1 and DS3)
It's even where the darkness grows from later on (the darksign), and I assume the first flame is more of a natural force than just pro gods', seeing as the Pygmies gained their dark soul from it too.
 
Logical answer would be probably just Gwyn giving humans and lesser gods' another reason to love him. He put a big fireball in the sky to spread his light to all corners of the world and act as a reminder to how much everyone needs him.

Less logical answer for discussion sake: could it be THE first flame? I can't imagine Gwyn would want to just leave such an important and powerful thing laying around where anyone can get to it. Plus, it does always seem to be relevant to the linking of the flame (at least in DS1 and DS3)
It's even where the darkness grows from later on (the darksign), and I assume the first flame is more of a natural force than just pro gods', seeing as the Pygmies gained their dark soul from it too.

I'm not entirely sure the dark soul is truly the same as the lord souls.

Fire and Dark seem to not be able to truly coexist in the same way life and death can.

it less seems a counterpart to light and the gods... and more a counterpart to the first flame itself.

Also there is one other ending that interesting to me.

The "Snuff the flame ending" normally when you choose to let things go dark, you just walk away from the flame... and inevitably someone else comes along to rekindle it.

but, with the snuff the fire ending... something very different happens.

You put the fire out entirely... you kill it for real.

But embers still dance in the distance... liked cinders linked by lords past... beyond the reach of light, beyond even the time of dark? What could possibly await us?
 
Taking a jaunt back through Oolacile and I had a thought:
How exactly does the Chosen Undead get dragged back in time by Manus? Besides the boring "time is convoluted" explaination, I mean.
Is the Abyss just like the endless nothing that existed before the Flame, in that it suffers from no flow of time, therefore being present at all moments at once? Maybe the flow of time is a direct result of the Flame and the lack of it creates the weird distortion of time (which also explains why time is so weird when the Flame starts to fade in DS1 and when even space is becoming distorted in DS3)

On that same note, I wonder if Artorias attacked the Chosen Undead due to their humanity? Even in his maddness he sought out and slew the creatures of the Abyss, and Humanity was born from the darkness that the Abyss became.

Another thought: It's rather interesting that each of Gwyn's knights are removed from Gwyn's light in some way.
Ornstein ends up abandoning his post of guarding the fake Gwynevere to go on his own journey, turning his back on Gwyn's hope to keep the Age of Fire alive.
Gough had his helm filled with wax to trick him into thinking he'd gone blind, cutting him off from the light get fought so hard to achieve.
Artorias becomes consumed by the very Abyss that he spent his life combating, going mad and dying in the rotting centre of the spreading darkness.
Ciaran acted in the shadows, hiding from Gwyn's light so that she may slay its enemies without notice. Her size also suggests she's either an indoctrinated human or a very short god (either intentionally so or a possible result of the weakening Flame (Gwyndolin is also very small for a god, as is Lothric). One way or another, she likely spent a lot of her time amoung humans and gods that were less than on board with Gwyn's ideals.
 
Maybe not naturally, but Dark Souls 3 seems to make a point of combining them. The painter has to both see flame and use pigment made from the dark soul, and in order to usurp the flame you first need to cultivate dark sigils.

To be fair, IIRC its not really made clear if she needs the pigment made from the Dark Soul. Other paintings have been made in the past that presumedly didn't have the dark soul pigment used in their construction. The use of the Dark Soul seems to be a change in the painting, something different than what has come before.

Its also worth noticing that while its easy, don't confuse the Fire for Light. The First Flame gave rise to Light and Dark as two extremes, just as with Heat and Cold, Life and Death. As mentioned in the first game opening cinematic, without the First Flame, it was a realm of grey land of uniformity. The Light and the Dark however in there extremes seem to have arisen from the First Sin.

Though that last part is my interpretation.
 
Logical answer would be probably just Gwyn giving humans and lesser gods' another reason to love him. He put a big fireball in the sky to spread his light to all corners of the world and act as a reminder to how much everyone needs him.

Less logical answer for discussion sake: could it be THE first flame? I can't imagine Gwyn would want to just leave such an important and powerful thing laying around where anyone can get to it. Plus, it does always seem to be relevant to the linking of the flame (at least in DS1 and DS3)
It's even where the darkness grows from later on (the darksign), and I assume the first flame is more of a natural force than just pro gods', seeing as the Pygmies gained their dark soul from it too.
I doubt it's the first flame itself, although it may be related to the Flame in some way. Probably tied to the state of the flame, hence why at the end of DSIII the Sun starts becoming a Darksign.

I'm not entirely sure the dark soul is truly the same as the lord souls.

Fire and Dark seem to not be able to truly coexist in the same way life and death can.

it less seems a counterpart to light and the gods... and more a counterpart to the first flame itself.

Also there is one other ending that interesting to me.

The "Snuff the flame ending" normally when you choose to let things go dark, you just walk away from the flame... and inevitably someone else comes along to rekindle it.

but, with the snuff the fire ending... something very different happens.

You put the fire out entirely... you kill it for real.

But embers still dance in the distance... liked cinders linked by lords past... beyond the reach of light, beyond even the time of dark? What could possibly await us?
Gwyn doesn't control flame, he controls Light. Light and Dark are opposites, as both are born from flame; the idea being that before the flame, there was no light to make something comparatively dark, with everything instead being completely uniform.

Taking a jaunt back through Oolacile and I had a thought:
How exactly does the Chosen Undead get dragged back in time by Manus? Besides the boring "time is convoluted" explaination, I mean.
Is the Abyss just like the endless nothing that existed before the Flame, in that it suffers from no flow of time, therefore being present at all moments at once? Maybe the flow of time is a direct result of the Flame and the lack of it creates the weird distortion of time (which also explains why time is so weird when the Flame starts to fade in DS1 and when even space is becoming distorted in DS3)

On that same note, I wonder if Artorias attacked the Chosen Undead due to their humanity? Even in his maddness he sought out and slew the creatures of the Abyss, and Humanity was born from the darkness that the Abyss became.

Another thought: It's rather interesting that each of Gwyn's knights are removed from Gwyn's light in some way.
Ornstein ends up abandoning his post of guarding the fake Gwynevere to go on his own journey, turning his back on Gwyn's hope to keep the Age of Fire alive.
Gough had his helm filled with wax to trick him into thinking he'd gone blind, cutting him off from the light get fought so hard to achieve.
Artorias becomes consumed by the very Abyss that he spent his life combating, going mad and dying in the rotting centre of the spreading darkness.
Ciaran acted in the shadows, hiding from Gwyn's light so that she may slay its enemies without notice. Her size also suggests she's either an indoctrinated human or a very short god (either intentionally so or a possible result of the weakening Flame (Gwyndolin is also very small for a god, as is Lothric). One way or another, she likely spent a lot of her time amoung humans and gods that were less than on board with Gwyn's ideals.
As to how Manus pulled you back, keep something in mind.
Light is Time.
There are sorceries that allow one to control light, and Manus was a sorcerer. I imagine that'd be related in some way, but the main thing is that I want to stress that Light is Time is important. Especially since the source of all light is the First Flame. So, as you pointed out, the flame getting weak correlates with time (and later space as well, because spacetime woo) beginning to break down.

As for the Abyss, it's noted that it came with the Flame. Before the Flame there was nothing but grey gray, with some gray grey to match it as well. The Abyss tends to be related to emotions and will, as the Abyss is where Humans draw power from, and strong emotional states are what fuel hexes and dark sorceries/miracles. That all being said, you do make an interesting point about perhaps the Abyss not being tied to Time. One of the possibilities for an Age of Dark would be, essentially, an Age without time. I'm not sure how that would work, because that's beyond any level of comprehension, but then again, that's humanity for you.

Artorias most likely was probably just attacking everything he ran into. Gods don't take well to the darkness of humanity, and Artorias basically drowned in the stuff. What's weird is that Humanity is tied to strong emotional states, but Artorias is described as being a nice and friendly guy, so why would they not be able to handle humanity besides "light =/= dark"? One idea for that is that perhaps the Gods don't lose themselves to their emotions, unlike humans (which would be extra funny because that's basically a complete reversal of the difference between Gods and Humans in many of the world's mythologies).

And is it really surprising that all four of his knights turned away from his plan? His daughter bailed the instant things began going wrong, and the only one who stayed is Gwyndolin, who is only following the plan due to a mixture of wanting to prove himself, and probably a bunch of internal issues caused by Gwyn's poor parenting strategy of forcing femininity onto Gwyndolin without consent or thought for his own son's well being.


The Light and the Dark however in there extremes seem to have arisen from the First Sin.

Though that last part is my interpretation.
Would you mind sharing what The First Sin is, in your opinion? I'm just curious about how other people view it.
 
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Keeping in mind that this is only my interpretation? The First Sin was Gwyn sealing the Darkness in humanity(aka the dark sign). Not only did it change the form of humans and cut hem off from the dark, but it seems to be a major part in the agitation of the Abyss.

In DS2 however Aldia seemed to indicate it was the linking of the fire at all, but I think the sealing of the darkness preceded it, as everything fucked up about the dark seemed to arise from that decision.
 
Keeping in mind that this is only my interpretation? The First Sin was Gwyn sealing the Darkness in humanity(aka the dark sign). Not only did it change the form of humans and cut hem off from the dark, but it seems to be a major part in the agitation of the Abyss.

In DS2 however Aldia seemed to indicate it was the linking of the fire at all, but I think the sealing of the darkness preceded it, as everything fucked up about the dark seemed to arise from that decision.

I certainly agree that it was the gods that comitted the first sin, whatever it was. Velka, goddess of sin, seems to be against Gwyn's line, at least at the time of the games, so I suspect she considered one of those two things an unforgivable sin to the point that she got herself into conflict with the royal family.
Whether "The First Sin" is one deemed so by Velka or merely considered so by the whole would probably be a major factor in that thoughtline, however.
 


So this came out, and I had no idea.
It's a big project between a ton of Dark Souls lore content creators. Haven't finished watching it yet, but so far it's interesting, and seems to focus more on explaining what is known to have happened rather than any real theories, although there some of it is still debatable, but that's to be expected for such a wide-scoping project.
 
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So this came out, and I had no idea.
It's a big project between a ton of Dark Souls lore content creators. Haven't finished watching it yet, but so far it's interesting, and seems to focus more on explaining what is known to have happened rather than any real theories.

It's good, but It's a bit too broad for my liking. They moreso cover the general events overall instead of explaining how and why, which kinda put me off. Also, the sudden and constantly changing narrators was a bit jarring, especially with the massive difference between them all. (was legitimately surprised to hear Vaati, though. I didn't realise he was part of the project)

I understand they were attempting to stick to just what we know for certain, but it meant it missed out on a lot of what makes Dark Souls lore so great, in my opinion.
 
Fair enough. Still nice to hear a bunch of voices I haven't heard in years (and this time the Ashen Hollow isn't even trying to convince people that Velka is the Furtive Pygmy!) so it was enjoyable for me in that regard.
 
Oh boy, that's a really old meme from the lore community.



Basically, The Ashen Hollow is most well known for his theory that Velka was the Furtive Pygmy. While it was controversial at best due to being built on fairly flimsy evidence, it was at least an interesting idea.
(Manus Did Nothing Wrong)
I didn't agree with it at all, mind you, but it just goes to show you how open one's interpretations can be of Souls lore.
 
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That all being said, you do make an interesting point about perhaps the Abyss not being tied to Time. One of the possibilities for an Age of Dark would be, essentially, an Age without time. I'm not sure how that would work, because that's beyond any level of comprehension, but then again, that's humanity for you.
For an idea of what that might be like, look to the Untended Graves, which appear to have a less than linear relationship to time, and are also heavily implied to be a left over fragment of the near Age of Dark that occurred before Ludleth linked the flame.
 
For an idea of what that might be like, look to the Untended Graves, which appear to have a less than linear relationship to time, and are also heavily implied to be a left over fragment of the near Age of Dark that occurred before Ludleth linked the flame.
They also feature Ludleth's name on the throne that he would later sit in, so it might be simultaneously part of his Age and the future of the Ashen One's, as I don't think they would have had that text there by accident.
 
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