-[] Try to influence a faction.
--[] Write-In which faction.
--[] Write-In goal.
--[] Write-In how much Culture to spend.
@Azel How hard would you say it would be to influence a faction to drop one of its main issues, which in my case might be specifically the Fishes desire for Isolationism?

Also, if we solved the issue of trading vs. isolationisme would the Artisans and Fishes reconcile of themselves or would they need more of a push?
 
@Azel How hard would you say it would be to influence a faction to drop one of its main issues, which in my case might be specifically the Fishes desire for Isolationism?

Also, if we solved the issue of trading vs. isolationisme would the Artisans and Fishes reconcile of themselves or would they need more of a push?
1. Hard. They started a political crisis over this.
2. There's a good amount of bad blood between the factions by now, so it might take some additional prodding.
 
1. Hard. They started a political crisis over this.
2. There's a good amount of bad blood between the factions by now, so it might take some additional prodding.
Thanks for the answer. How much of a difference does it makes, how much culture we use to do something?

Also, if we just started sending missionaries to the Lowland, what kind of consequences would it have?
 
Thanks for the answer. How much of a difference does it makes, how much culture we use to do something?

Also, if we just started sending missionaries to the Lowland, what kind of consequences would it have?
1. Depends on the circumstances. Some things will automatically fail if you underpay and overpaying gives bonuses and rerolls. What constitutes underpaying and overpaying is intentionally left unclear.

2. Try it and find out. ;)
 
Okay. I think that if we start converting pops it is going to backfire in the form of theological influence in goverment.

Our best bet is to use culture to influence a faction. I think changing the Fishes from isolationism to peace is going to be easier than stopping the artisans' greed
 
Okay. I think that if we start converting pops it is going to backfire in the form of theological influence in goverment.

Our best bet is to use culture to influence a faction. I think changing the Fishes from isolationism to peace is going to be easier than stopping the artisans' greed
I'm not really sure we can say theocratic influence is guaranteed to be a bad thing. If we look at history there are plenty of examples of theocratic polities that were nevertheless successful. Religion can be an important source of stability and legitimacy, especially in these troubled times. Besides the Mandate (even if it's currently inactive) provides for a fusion of religion and the state. The main question we should be asking if we want the Bone Tenders to abandon their neutrality.
 
I'm not really sure we can say theocratic influence is guaranteed to be a bad thing. If we look at history there are plenty of examples of theocratic polities that were nevertheless successful. Religion can be an important source of stability and legitimacy, especially in these troubled times. Besides the Mandate (even if it's currently inactive) provides for a fusion of religion and the state. The main question we should be asking if we want the Bone Tenders to abandon their neutrality.

Well, I do not want to. That neutrality assured us that communication ia still open. Otherwise we would have gotten something far worse
 
Well, I do not want to. That neutrality assured us that communication ia still open. Otherwise we would have gotten something far worse
I'm leaning towards that as well but an argument could be made that if the Bone Tenders had not been neutral and had openly picked a side to back and legitimize the crisis would have never escalated this far to begin with. This is gonna be a tough decision.
 
I think the bone tenders need to actually assert their power, as the last few updates have shown factions are hard as hell to please, and under the mandate they'll get pissy at the drop of a hat. We need a central authority to keep things in line, and the bone tenders make the most since
 
We need to agree on a set of issues that are not mutually exclusive and able to be rationalized by the fishies and artisans. Then we need to influence those factions away from things like isolationism but not so that they belive in the same things, rather that they are more similar than different.

For example, rationalizing the fishies isolationism policy to a protectionist one is pretty easy. Its also in line with what the artisans and serfs broadly want. We can influence the hunters glory into honor, they already get plenty by providing the tribe with quite a bit of food and this way we can more easily open a path for a more widespread warrior base, giving our serfs the opportunity to gain recognition in the eyes of our martialy inclined ancestors.

The reason we are in this position in the first place is because we allowed our disparate people develope ideals and wants that are mutually exclusive and against the wishes of the ancestors.
 
In the past years, the Artisans had focused their efforts to build a mine in the mountains to make Moonstone, haggling the price the Valley People paid for Azurite down to have the tools and people free to see it done. Word was that they were struggling to find workers for the mine though, as they held not much sway among the serfs that weren't already chopping lumber, hewing stone or otherwise making things for them. And then there was the food. Pulling people from the orchards to gather shiny stones while the larders were empty was bound to be unpopular. On the other side though, the Artisans had acted on their desires to grow ties with the lowlands fast. An envoy had been sent to Brushcrest, though what he was meant to negotiate, even the Bone Tenders didn't know.

Meanwhile the Fishes worked within the valley to spread their own influence, though swaying only few of the still unaligned serfs. For them, the most important things was to keep the people well fed. If they managed that, so their plan, they could make the people see that the Hunters and the Artisans were wrong to lust after Moonstone, lowlander dyes and all these other things. After all, a nicely painted house didn't stop your belly from growling. At the same time, they were sending envoys to the White Clans, talking with the chieftains of a few clans that had many hunters and who had no stake in the villages being build in the mountains. Most agreed that they were planning to settle Clansmen in the valley to replace the many hunters who Willow had led to their doom, but a few were worried that the Fishes were trying to gather loyal spears under themselves for other purposes.
I wanted to try and underline, what the other two main factions are trying to do at the moment. This we can use to try and figure out a strategy, but also how much culture that is going to be produced.

It seems that the artisans are focusing on using production to finish the mine and on spending their diplo action on talking with the lowlands. I might be wrong, but it does not seem like they are using any culture at the moment and if they still are getting 2 culture from luxury goods, they might have a surplus of 2 culture.

The Fishes are using their diplo action on talking with the White Clans, while also trying to convert serfs to their faction. I am unsure what culture they are using to that, since they should have no, but the text are of course also mentioning that they are somewhat failing to convert them. Overall, we should not be expecting the Fishes to have any surplus culture.

@Azel Can we try to do actions without using culture and if so, how effective would they be?
 
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What did the Bone Tenders decide on the matter of training clansmen?
[] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them trained at Speakers Rest.

This one would rapidly form a new center of power at Speakers Rest.
Potent in influence but control won't last.

[] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them trained as the apprentices of other Bone Tenders.

This one would instead decentralize Bone Tender agendas over time, as the master-apprentice chain propagates local culture more powerfully than the central. On the other hand its the most likely to survive if we fuck up again like we did with the raiding, with much mutation.

[] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them brought to the White Halls for training.

This would centralize authority at the White Halls and spread Bone Tender faction units over time.
However, we need to back this up with boats and trails, nobody's going to send kids on a year long journey across wilderness to the religious center.

[] [Training] Keep the system as it is and only recruit from orphans in the valley or those who are brought to the White Halls.

Expect the clans to come up with their own solution soon to the shortage. One we don't influence.

What did they decide on the matter of religious authority over the clans Bone Tenders?
[] [Authority] All Bone Tenders directly answer to the congregation at the White Halls. This is how it was and this is how it should be.

This is futile. They just plain can't give meaningful direction with travel this poor.

[] [Authority] The issue of distance needs to be resolved. Let the White Halls congregation name a representative who will hold sway over the Bone Tenders in the mountains.

Aka appoint a bishopric. Fairly practical, but expect eventual breakaway attempts if we take the Apprentices or Speakers' Rest approaches above.

[] [Authority] The argument that Clansmen are not Valley People holds merit. Let them form their own congregation that is equal to the White Halls.

This one would require the least management, and is the hardest to fuck up. The religion would spread more quickly if local believers don't need to hold allegiance to a distant people, but also diverge rapidly if we take Apprentices or Speakers Rest approaches.

[] [Authority] Every Bone Tender, no, every person can commune with the ancestors themselves to gain their wisdom. Thus every Bone Tender should preach this wisdom as he sees fit.

*Expanding Cloud of Religious Thought*
Do this if you want to try to reroll our values. Because there will be a great many voices all yelling incoherently.
 
I wanted to try and underline, what the other two main factions are trying to do at the moment. This we can use to try and figure out a strategy, but also how much culture that is going to be produced.

It seems that the artisans are focusing on using production to finish the mine and on spending their diplo action on talking with the lowlands. I might be wrong, but it does not seem like they are using any culture at the moment and if they still are getting 2 culture from luxury goods, they might have a surplus of 2 culture.

The Fishes are using their diplo action on talking with the White Clans, while also trying to convert serfs to their faction. I am unsure what culture they are using to that, since they should have no, but the text are of course also mentioning that they are somewhat failing to convert them. Overall, we should not be expecting the Fishes to have any surplus culture.

@Azel Can we try to do actions without using culture and if so, how effective would they be?
Keep in mind that this was this turn, where everyone got the chance to re-purpose a few resources. The Bone Tenders made up the difference by not spending much beyond deescalating the conflict and getting the Hunters calmed down.

If you want to guess how much culture you can safely spend, you will need to anticipate their actions next turn.

And no, you can't do a 0 Culture action. You will have to take some risks if you want to act.
 
Keep in mind that this was this turn, where everyone got the chance to re-purpose a few resources. The Bone Tenders made up the difference by not spending much beyond deescalating the conflict and getting the Hunters calmed down.

If you want to guess how much culture you can safely spend, you will need to anticipate their actions next turn.

And no, you can't do a 0 Culture action. You will have to take some risks if you want to act.
Thanks for that information, though I still wonder how the Fishes was able to do the attempt at converting the Serfs. Also, how long are these crisis turns by the way compared to normal ones?
I will try to see if I can guess, the other factions next move.
The one faction that nobody was overly worried about was, oddly enough, the remaining hunters. In the chaos that followed the coming of the lowlanders, those who were most inclined to stir trouble had either died in altercations or left the valley to look for their beloved Great Deer. Nobody stopped them, since the few troublemakers were largely considered no big loss. The remaining hunters then retreated with their families to Rivercrossing, south of the Gentle River, and tried their best to stay out of the conflict within the valley proper. Chastised by Bone Tenders preaching, their appetite for bloodshed among the Valley People was snuffed out. And besides. They were too few left to do anything on their own. Willow and the remaining hunters did not return that year and neither in those that followed, making many believe that he and his had died on the lowlanders spears or beneath the snow of the mountains.
First, we can read about the Hunters and from as far as I can see, we should not expect them to true to do anything out of the ordinary.
If they get the choice between +1 culture or diplo action, I think they would simply take the culture and not use it. The exception being, that they might use the diplo action trying to track down what happened to the rest of the hunters.

We can probably also expect the Serfs to stay neutral and they might also simply chose +1 culture, which they give in surplus.
In the past years, the Artisans had focused their efforts to build a mine in the mountains to make Moonstone, haggling the price the Valley People paid for Azurite down to have the tools and people free to see it done. Word was that they were struggling to find workers for the mine though, as they held not much sway among the serfs that weren't already chopping lumber, hewing stone or otherwise making things for them. And then there was the food. Pulling people from the orchards to gather shiny stones while the larders were empty was bound to be unpopular. On the other side though, the Artisans had acted on their desires to grow ties with the lowlands fast. An envoy had been sent to Brushcrest, though what he was meant to negotiate, even the Bone Tenders didn't know.
Well, the big hint is that the artisans will try to find a worker for their new mine, so they will probably try to either influence the serfs to change jobs or convert a serf pop and then get them to switch job. This will then at least use 1 culture.
They will most likely use another diplo action on the lowlanders, but I am unsure what deals they are making and how that changes our income.
Most likely the Artisans will have a surplus of culture of either 1 or 0.
Meanwhile the Fishes worked within the valley to spread their own influence, though swaying only few of the still unaligned serfs. For them, the most important things was to keep the people well fed. If they managed that, so their plan, they could make the people see that the Hunters and the Artisans were wrong to lust after Moonstone, lowlander dyes and all these other things. After all, a nicely painted house didn't stop your belly from growling. At the same time, they were sending envoys to the White Clans, talking with the chieftains of a few clans that had many hunters and who had no stake in the villages being build in the mountains. Most agreed that they were planning to settle Clansmen in the valley to replace the many hunters who Willow had led to their doom, but a few were worried that the Fishes were trying to gather loyal spears under themselves for other purposes.
Well, it seems likely that the Fishes will try again to get influence amongst the Serfs and use a diplo action to finish whatever deal they are making with the White Clans, since we have not seen the end of that. Since they would have to either chose +1 culture or a diplo action, then I am unsure of how they can do both, but in the end, it will be unlikely that they will have any surplus.

Overall, I think that we at most can expect 3 culture in surplus from the other factions, though it might very well be lower than that.

Edit:
I forgot to think about that Silver is a Luxury good, that will provide 1 culture, so if the Artisans succeed in getting a worker, then they will probably get 1 culture back again.

Second edit:
Also, since the mine seems to be finished, the Artisans will have left over production, which they might attempt to trade away for Luxury goods. I am unsure what else they would do with it.
 
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I'm leaning on this:

[] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them brought to the White Halls for training.

Centralized formation


[] [Authority] The issue of distance needs to be resolved. Let the White Halls congregation name a representative who will hold sway over the Bone Tenders in the mountains.

Decentralized decision making, but under the same bases becuse everyone learned the same way.

Then I think that we should spend a lot of culture on influencing the Fishes to change isolation for protection, and that protection is only formed through unity and agreement with others.
 
So, is our overall strategy going to be to realign faction goals starting with influencing the fishes from isolation to protectionism until we can hit the metaphorical reunify buttons? Or do we back up one side over the other?

Regarding the options for how our faith progresses, I'm favoring establishing a new temple at Speaker's Rest with a Whitehall representative. Retaining total home control is impossible if we want to spread the faith this early, while the others cause way too much deviation from our faith and culture. And if we're lucky, we'll have pretty much culturally annexed the clans by the time a breakaway from centralization is attempted, making it a moot point in this instance.
 
[X] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them brought to the White Halls for training.
[X] [Authority] The issue of distance needs to be resolved. Let the White Halls congregation name a representative who will hold sway over the Bone Tenders in the mountains.

[X] Plan unity
-[X] Try to influence a faction.
--[X] Fishes
--[X] Try to change isolationism for Protectionism and Unity, citing that the outside can very well hold dangers and the only way to be prepared is not to isolate, but be open and have agreements with others, just like the Valley People should be united in a common cause. The conflict which wrought this state was because of a group deciding things on their own and leaving Greenvalley to fend for itself. If the rolls allow for it, attempt to remove the motivation instead of changing it
---[X] The internal motivation is that the Faith can only grow by further contact with other villages, and isolationism puts it at a disadvantage.
--[X] Spend 3 culture
-[X] Gain +1 Culture to spend this turn.
-[X] (Optional) Change the focus of the Pilgrim Village.
--[X] Encourage own culture. (+1 Valley People Culture in Greenvalley)

This leaves the faction most likely to change to a more compatible point of view, and keeps 2 excess culture to sustain ideas.
 
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[X] Plan unity
-[X] Try to influence a faction.
--[X] Fishes
--[X] Try to change isolationism for Protectionism and Unity, citing that the outside can very well hold dangers and the only way to be prepared is not to isolate, but be open and have agreements with others, just like the Valley People should be united in a common cause. The conflict which wrought this state was because of a group deciding things on their own and leaving Greenvalley to fend for itself.
--[X] Spend 3 culture
-[X] Gain +1 Culture to spend this turn.
-[X] (Optional) Change the focus of the Pilgrim Village.
--[X] Encourage own culture. (+1 Valley People Culture in Greenvalley)
I like your plan, though I wonder, if it might be worth it to add something about how isolationism would prevent the spreading of the glory of the Ancestors or something?
 
I like your plan, though I wonder, if it might be worth it to add something about how isolationism would prevent the spreading of the glory of the Ancestors or something?

This is not a concern for the fishes nor the artisans. This is an intra-faction concern, not an argument used to convince them of anything.
 
[X] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them brought to the White Halls for training.


[X] [Authority] The issue of distance needs to be resolved. Let the White Halls congregation name a representative who will hold sway over the Bone Tenders in the mountains.

[X] Plan unity

[X] Try to influence a faction.
--[X] Fishes
--[X] Try to change isolationism for Protectionism and Unity, citing that the outside can very well hold dangers and the only way to be prepared is not to isolate, but be open and have agreements with others, just like the Valley People should be united in a common cause. The conflict which wrought this state was because of a group deciding things on their own and leaving Greenvalley to fend for itself.
--[X] Spend 3 culture
-[X] Gain +1 Culture to spend this turn.
-[X] (Optional) Change the focus of the Pilgrim Village.
--[X] Encourage own culture. (+1 Valley People Culture in Greenvall
 
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[X] [Training] Begin recruiting orphans from among the clans and have them brought to the White Halls for training.
[X] [Authority] The issue of distance needs to be resolved. Let the White Halls congregation name a representative who will hold sway over the Bone Tenders in the mountains.

[X] Plan unity with a twist
-[X] Try to influence a faction.
--[X] Fishes
--[X] Try to change isolationism for Protectionism and Unity, citing that the outside can very well hold dangers and the only way to be prepared is not to isolate, but be open and have agreements with others, just like the Valley People should be united in a common cause. The conflict which wrought this state was because of a group deciding things on their own and leaving Greenvalley to fend for itself.
--[X] Spend 2 culture
-[X] Send a diplomat to someone.
--[X] White clans
--[X] Consult the local chieftains and bone tenders about the clanmen's ancestors, it is proper that if families are to join their lineages and histories should be recorded and venerated properly.
-[X] (Optional) Change the focus of the Pilgrim Village.
--[X] Encourage own culture. (+1 Valley People Culture in Greenvalley)

I decided to take away one culture from Tomcost's plan in order to send a bunch of bone tenders off to the clansmen to record lore. The aim is to not exclude the clansmen from the religious lore of the valley and record all the sagas so that the clansmen are ok with us taking more control over religious proceedings, as the lines thin between lineages. Eventually everyone will have the same ancestors.
 
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