not offhand, but i've heard that the fallen (worm example, sorry) have quite a lot of expanded lore in the sequel that, should one want to play around with them in a worm 1 era fic, could be quite useful

Wing it. Fanfiction's one of the safest places to just wing it.

Believe it or not I have an entire fic on that premise under that exact title :p
(it's filled with fluff, crack, and characterizations that make little to no sense whatsoever)
(it is the bane of my existence)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
not offhand, but i've heard that the fallen (worm example, sorry) have quite a lot of expanded lore in the sequel that, should one want to play around with them in a worm 1 era fic, could be quite useful

Ah, okay. Well, here's my advice.

1. Collect all the WoG lore and popular fan conceptions about the Fallen.

2. Write it all down, compiling it as best you can into one long document.

3. Use it as toilet paper.

4. Write whatever the fuck you want.
 
at that point i might as well just edit a few names and character descriptions and call it a cult investigation original story or something, and who would want to read that?
 
This is, amusingly, something that I've considered a lot in context of my own personal evolution as a member and contributor to SV, and coming at it in the way I've ended up doing so has given me some personal insights on the matter that sync up quite nicely with a lot of what's been expressed so far. I'm going to give a little background first, though, because I feel it's required for later statements to make sense in context.

My initial foray into SV was as a beta/co-writer for a piece of rather well done (in my opinion) Worm/Exalted fanfiction that I came to knowing not a single thing about Worm in helping with. I wrote several scenes of my own in that piece, which remain the most highly rated posts I've ever made on this site by a full six times, to what appeared to be general success although with some failures. In this, I was clearly the secondary individual in the project, something I accepted cheerfully (even if the actual author and I had our occasional clashes). As that fic began to stutter due to various, unimportant to this discussion reasons, I discovered Questing as a medium and drank it in. The result of that, several other pieces of fiction that anyone who knows of them will be able to clearly see in the resulting work, and my own love of worldbuilding in general, Practice War was born.

Now here's the thing. What I'd created was a deliberately original work, with no ties to established fandoms or even most of the general genre conventions that SV loves so much. If you're interested, go read the quest [/shameless plug]. However, getting traction within the Quest board with a story of that type, especially as I'd chosen the Quest medium to do so, was a brutal uphill struggle. I had a few people that were willing to toss in votes for me, with @Serafina in particular very kindly acting as a tiebreaker a few times in that regard, for which I can't be grateful enough. To make this clear, and this is a very present problem within SV as a whole were it comes to more niche quests that don't catch the eye, I am talking vote counts of 5-8 in the opening stages. Almost nothing in terms of thread feedback to what I was writing until we actually got out of character generation, and precious little there until I all but resorted to begging. If a writer is to improve, they must be given critique, and the questing format is uniquely suited to this as it engages in a direct interaction point with the readers in terms of shaping the story. However, this is a double edged sword, as most are, in that if you have a small or generally quiet base of interest, it can be very hard to muster the will to keep on going. In my case I did, and with the help of a truly generous reader acquired a site banner for a three month period - I've since subscribed and maintained the banner continuously. This brought in the people I desperately needed to prevent the thread atrophying horribly between updates, as many quests do. In most cases, that atrophy is expected and certainly not a bad thing. But it's more complicated than that.

SV, as a board, has a tilt towards work of particular origins. Worm is one. Magical girl work (in the spirit of YA PMMM) is another. There are more, but the selection is limited. And this is problematic for growth of both site content and those who provide it, as they feel tilted towards writing towards one of those fandoms even if they don't initially intend to. I'm certainly not immune to this, as some aspects of the Practice War could be considered close enough now, given the development that's occurred. An excellent example of this would be the truly fantastic, in my opinion, work of 'Til My Last Breath which languished on low voter counts and audience engagement even though it featured one of the most interesting protagonists I've ever read about, and I include published fiction in this assessment. Its writer kept it going regardless, until the system they'd built began to creak under the strain of the mass scale combat they knew was coming, but it's a very good example of this issue. If you write outside of the Established (the capital letter is intended) genres of SV, do not expect to reap any great total of ratings (irrelevant), comments (more relevant), or feedback (literally the thing a lot of people write here for).

There isn't any solution to that I can see, however, which ends up leading me to a conclusion that I really don't like to make, but I find myself approaching nonetheless especially following interaction with certain longer term quest writers that have followed the 'fanfic' trend in their works. They're burning out, and we don't have people stepping in to replace them in a way that will actually draw the quester crowd that they've played a part in shaping. Several of the larger fanfic quests are at this point coasting on inertia, and prospective QMs trying to make something new run into an uphill climb that trying to overcome can be utterly soul destroying. Which leads to another conclusion, that I may be wrong on and hope that I am, that questing and user fiction (I read that less so I can't comment as fully) are to some greater or less degree circling the drain. The quester community has become used to a certain form in what is written, and if you wish to run a successful quest you either abide to their implict demands, have a voter count that can be counted on one hand on average, or just refuse to give up and use mechanisms like site banners (which require money that not everyone can expend) to attract further people.

A possible solution I'd actually love to see done would be a...staff picks section, perhaps? Although that has its own issues. Basically, every month, staff or CC or whatever pick a quest or piece of user fiction that started in that month and is still moving forward steadily. Originality and skill in writing, but not genre, should be prized here. The writer is then offered a three-month banner slot, with a simple(ish) banner to bring more people into the quest if they would wish to do so. I have no idea how doable this is, however, which is an issue all in itself, but it's one of the few ways I can see to try and break the deadlock that I see setting in deeper and deeper every day within the Quests subforum and I suspect is as prevalent within User Fiction. If it would actually work is another story, but I know just from my own personal experience that having a banner brings people to a quest. That's not always a good thing, I suppose, but I've never suffered for it.
 
Last edited:
at that point i might as well just edit a few names and character descriptions and call it a cult investigation original story or something, and who would want to read that?

If its well written? Me.

But just you phrasing it that way leads me to another question. What is it about Worm that makes you want to write about it? What is it about Worm that inspires you and that you want to capture or expand upon?
 
things that i feel are probably less relevant to the thread than the purpose of getting readers so i have someone to give me feedback on what I'm doing well and what I could stand to improve on. having something being well written is one thing, but it's the getting there that is a right pain in the ass.

and how would you know if it's well written without reading it? would you even stand to let the person know if you didn't think it was? would you let them know how you think they can improve?

or would you just abandon it without a second thought?
 
things that i feel are probably less relevant to the thread than the purpose of getting readers so i have someone to give me feedback on what I'm doing well and what I could stand to improve on. having something being well written is one thing, but it's the getting there that is a right pain in the ass.

and how would you know if it's well written without reading it? would you even stand to let the person know if you didn't think it was? would you let them know how you think they can improve?

or would you just abandon it without a second thought?

To be fair, a lot of these questions are what people get editors or betas for. Which certainly isn't impossible, I might add.
 
oh yeah, they are very good for that sort of thing, but they're just one person, and relying on them like that can cause them to burn out faster than you do. that, and there's something about throwing a hundred people's views at a work and getting wonderous readers like @Finbar and @Char-Nobyl who are truly insightful and actually seem to understand my work better than I do (or lead to me knowing of potential plot threads and consequences I hadn't even thought of yet, which is equally fun) and can also provide critique on how it's done.

God, if I could get Char-Nobyl as a thorough beta, I would probably end up being happy with writing for them and never posting here again.
 
*Sees thread name*

Alright, who made this troll-

*Logiccosmic*

Ah.

*read op*

Oh my gods it's not even a troll thread what the hell. Bravo.

So perhaps what really kills the low end of fanfic, or at least in my opinion is a lead weight on it is kinda two things: a lack of agency, and a lack of stakes, more than any sort of power levels. Super crazy power levels are just the symptom.

I'm gonna agree with this. In terms of my original settings (the primary stuff I do) I trend towards higher power levels, but I seem to have largely avoided the agency and stakes problems.

I've read the skullduggery pleasant series (and loved it, but i havent gotten to the latest one yet) but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable writing a fanfic for it. I've read the percy jackson series too, agian, not comfortable with writing fanfic for it and I'd be fucked if my life depended on remembering anything other than the vaguest details of it.

Getting character voices down right is hard. And how often do worm writers have to go to WOG repositories to get information that wasn't available in the main story? If you aren't going to keep some canon elements you might as well just go off and write something original with the same basic premise/genre.

I feel like I'm almost being attacked for not considering myself able to write worthwhile fanfics of things I've read

Thing is, you don't need a fanfic to be overwhelmingly compliant with all 'canon sources', especially for shorter stories, unless you specifically are writing for want of a nail stories or the like. (in which case, well, fair enough)

I know that I don't know enough of most settings I could write fanfic of to feel comfortable writing fanfic for them, but then I'm driven to vastly prefer original settings anyways. Of course, those are harder to get readers for, especially outside, like, quests.

Also it's a commentary on my preference for certain kinds of stories, given that eg small romantic scenes are possible as fics.

at that point i might as well just edit a few names and character descriptions and call it a cult investigation original story or something, and who would want to read that?

Well, A: that sounds interesting, but also B: this is kinda absurdly over the top of a statement. By making it a Wormfic at all you are dealing with the broader setting, including eg the existence of Cauldron, Scion, and the nature of powers. If you wind up disagreeing with canon on specific elements, that doesn't throw out all other elements, ya know?

things that i feel are probably less relevant to the thread than the purpose of getting readers so i have someone to give me feedback on what I'm doing well and what I could stand to improve on. having something being well written is one thing, but it's the getting there that is a right pain in the ass.

and how would you know if it's well written without reading it? would you even stand to let the person know if you didn't think it was? would you let them know how you think they can improve?

or would you just abandon it without a second thought?

Personally, if I'm grabbed enough by eg premise or good points to the author's writing style, I usually try to give feedback (if nothing else any typos I notice) if I think it will help.

Of course, I also read very little in the way of User Fiction generally currently, and it's been awhile since a Quest caught my eye enough to follow, so I am perhaps not terribly relevant to the point.
 
Aww...thanks... That's kind of you.
Actually, those fic's of yours I commented in, I have no idea, I was just giving POV
 
I'm afraid I can safely say you are part of a helpful minority.

I think this post actually nails at least one side of the general point here.

Those actually willing to do more than simply read a quest or piece of user fiction on SV are in the minority. Those capable of giving effective critique are even more so.
 
I was going to try and write something actually intelligent and useful before realising that I'm tired and can't hold a coherent thought so instead, you're getting this*. I'm not going to address the power/control angle because others can do it better, however, I suspect a large part of why so much of our collective work feel rushed, why so many things seem like they're happening in blank rooms, and why we cling so strongly to canon is because there are like 4 people on this site who plot out stories properly**.

Like, even my abortive attempts at plotting out dumb ideas make it incredibly easy to see where things just wouldn't work in the narrative.

*AKA: The hottest of hot takes. :p
**And I am not one of them. :V
 
Honestly, finding someone willing to read and edit your stories before you actually publish them can be stressful. And it's even more stressful when you're not used to interacting with other people online.

I freely admit that I need someone capable of hitting me with a stick to get me more focused.
 
Well, certainly, I want to see more Saejima/Goro Majima fanfiction that explores the complexities of their relationship after Yakuza 5 AND ALSO BEATING UP A TIGER WITH A BASEBALL BAT WHILE RIDING A MOTORBIKE-

But no one's done that.

Shame.
Okay, even without any irony, let me just say something here. :p

I read a lot of stories in genres that I don't ever see on SV on sites like FF.net and AO3 because they don't encourage things like romance, or character relationships, and so on and so forth.

Not to mention that the idea of writing a short story or one-shot on SV is doomed to fail from the get-go (except perhaps in dedicated topic threads), because you're not gonna get engagement from it at all if you have a thread for every short story.

It's why I've been toying with the idea of creating a "Fernandel's Fabuloud Fanfiction Fair" thread where I can just post one-shots and short stories of various things without worrying about creating a new thread for everything that needs to be maintained and sustained indefinitely. It'd be arrogant as fuck, but I kinda want to do it anyway so I can write shorter ideas, finish, and then publishing them. I know @shadenight123 has a thread like that, as does @BeaconHill for her Worm stories, and they both have a degree of success. But that would just be kinda like replacing my FF.net author profile with a single thread here, working around the link limits of the forum structure instead of improving it

Vasically, we need to find ways to improve the structure so that people feel more free to post ideas they wouldn't have wanted otherwise. We need recommendation and ideas threads for different genres, better search functionality, and use the systems we have more creatively.

It'd be difficult, but I think it could work. I'll be thinking about this a bit more later, when I'm not on my study break.
 
It's why I've been toying with the idea of creating a "Fernandel's Fabuloud Fanfiction Fair" thread where I can just post one-shots and short stories of various things without worrying about creating a new thread for everything that needs to be maintained and sustained indefinitely. It'd be arrogant as fuck, but I kinda want to do it anyway so I can write shorter ideas, finish, and then publishing them. I know @shadwnight123 has a thread like that, as does @BeaconHill for her Worm stories, and they both have a degree of success. But that would just be kinda like replacing my FF.net author profile with a single thread here, working around the link limits of the forum structure instead of improving it

The issue here is that those are both authors with established 'name power'. It doesn't work at all for people coming fresh into SV, especially if they're doing original fiction or fanfic outside of SV's iconics.
 
The issue here is that those are both authors with established 'name power'. It doesn't work at all for people coming fresh into SV, especially if they're doing original fiction or fanfic outside of SV's iconics.

Yes, but the thing is... I didn't start with "name power". My very first big fic, the one which made me my name - Aeon Natum Engel - had five chapters on the first two pages on SB. That's less than ten replies per story post. And these weren't piddly little 2k word updates. The first chapter was 8k, and they got longer from there. @Fernandel was in a similar boat when he got started. I've written overblown reboots to fics, I've written fanfic of other people's fanfics, I've jumped around between series and I clawed my way up into having "name power" back on SB, back in the days when anime fics were rarities and people still mostly wrote curbstomp crossovers between western TV things like Star Wars and B5.

And I'd bet money that most of the "name power" people got their start in the same way. They got their "name power" by writing in different franchises so lots of people had heard of them, they pulled out interesting new twists or fresh ideas, and they had enough technical skill that people didn't just drop their fic after reading the first chapter because of poor grammar. Yes, having name power is an institutional advantage - but being pigeonholed as a Wormfic writer or an SI writer isn't the way to build up a rep.
 
Of course, "name power" might slightly expand your audience, but there's no guarantee an influx of critical readers will come with that. I've found it's the other way around.
 
i got my name power by writing a bunch of shitty script-fic crack omakes with seclorum in The Valkyrior
 
Of course, "name power" might slightly expand your audience, but there's no guarantee an influx of critical readers will come with that. I've found it's the other way around.

No, that's very much true. For example, at least in my experience most of the people I'd consider the "best" critical readers (often writers in their own right) won't touch SIs. If you're writing an SI, you're not going to get any of them showing up. Same applies for crowd-pleasing stomp fics, or rationalfics.

Indeed, chasing the Likes by going for crowd pleasers can actively work against getting a more critical audience. It's like the movie problem of "made for audiences" vs "made for critics".

(this, naturally, poses the question of "What's the SV version of a Michael Bay Transformers movie [1] vs the SV version of oscar bait?")

[1] Rollin' in the Likes, only mentioned with contempt by the critics.
 
Yes, but the thing is... I didn't start with "name power". My very first big fic, the one which made me my name - Aeon Natum Engel - had five chapters on the first two pages on SB. That's less than ten replies per story post. And these weren't piddly little 2k word updates. The first chapter was 8k, and they got longer from there. @Fernandel was in a similar boat when he got started. I've written overblown reboots to fics, I've written fanfic of other people's fanfics, I've jumped around between series and I clawed my way up into having "name power" back on SB, back in the days when anime fics were rarities and people still mostly wrote curbstomp crossovers between western TV things like Star Wars and B5.

And I'd bet money that most of the "name power" people got their start in the same way. They got their "name power" by writing in different franchises so lots of people had heard of them, they pulled out interesting new twists or fresh ideas, and they had enough technical skill that people didn't just drop their fic after reading the first chapter because of poor grammar. Yes, having name power is an institutional advantage - but being pigeonholed as a Wormfic writer or an SI writer isn't the way to build up a rep.
Yup, pretty much this.

The first stories I published back in the day on FF.net were, in rapid succession:
  • a crossover between a video game series and a classic isekai anime that could have been cliché, but that I made deliberately sure to upend my audience's expectations for,
  • A Naruto OC Mentor fic that focussed on Konoha as a place with extensive worldbuilding and AESTHETICS,
  • An AU Negima fanfic which I crossed over with several different universes as an experiment in reconciling different kinds of aesthetics, tones, and systems,
  • And a crossover noir detective story set in a fantasypunk version of 1920s Shanghai, because I wanted to write interal first-person monologue and snappy dialogue.
Later, I published:
  • a continuation fanfic that was an exercise in whether I could tell a story from the first person and from a removed second-hand perspective and still keep the audience engaged, while imitating a specific style of diction,
  • A violent political drama crossover (that never went anywhere, sadly) because I thought the story concept was interesting
I got different kinds of people coming to each of those stories, and many of them decided to jump over to see what over stuff I had written -- a process that was made hilariously easy via the author profile and author alert functionality on FF.net, and significantly harder on SV because it lacks those. In my estimation, I also gained popularity because I obsessively self-edited, because I had a hand for atmospheric worldbuilding, because I did things like acting dialogue out loud in order to get tone and pauses and body language right, because I used foreign languages in settings where they were fitting, and because I used a gigantic backpack of research to add flavour to my stories without it being obvious. And also because I didn't give a shit about canon.

I didn't have a "name" for myself when I started out. I'll wager that people started remembering my name, and not the name of my individual stories or my story in a single fandom, when they realized that my work had a certain level of appeal and interest no matter what fandom I was writing in. And I could write in alll kinds of fandoms because I was interested in telling a specific kind of story in each of them, without being interested in being part of the larger "fandom" and its trends.

So yeah, bucking or reinterpreting trends or creating something new entirely creates names that are remembered. I'd hardly call myself one, considering I never finished a single story and because I don't have much time to write anymore, but trendsetters are remembered because they did something unusual, not because they were part of a specific fandom.

I could name you a variety of "famous" authors who are basically just known for doing the same shit, over and over again, in the same fandom because they managed to get a specific kind of hit and are trying to catch lightning in a bottle again. Gabriel Blessing is one, Kenichi618 (?) is another, ThirdFang is yet another... These are all people that are scared of doing something, even when they write in different fandoms, because they're not willing to switch up their formula. And it bloody well shows in the quality of their writing.

(Gabriel Blessing actualy legit wrote his best work when he deviated from his harem, gritty action-adventure word avalanche formula by writing a melancholic romance one-shot about a widow and family friend growing closer over many years until their relationship finally became a thing, even skipping the obligatory final fight scene altogether. It was a sweet story, and it's a goddamn shame he never learned from it.)

So basically, write different things! If you write ten concepts, and nine fail to be good or popular, people are more likely to remember you anyway and appreciate your improvement, and your tenth idea might lead to the success and attention you want. And then the most difficult thing is to not give too much of a shit about your success, because trying to chase and sustain or recreate it by following the formula that you think led to success is basically poison for your creative writing.

...I'm not sure where this post went, but yeah, basically @EarthScorpion said. Nobody starts out with a "name", and any story anybody with a "name" writes now needs to stand on its own merits to get attention. ES can probably tell you that Killer Monkey Man's success kinda floored him, and it wasn't successful because he was a "big name". It's because the initial premise was absurd slash interesting and executed in a way that worked. Same with his other stories.
(this, naturally, poses the question of "What's the SV version of a Michael Bay Transformers movie [1] vs the SV version of oscar bait?")
Comics SI that updates daily vs. a gay romance fanfic sticking to less-than-novella length without a happy ending, but definitive resolution?

@Omicron we need to introduce the nouveau roman to SV, stat! :V
 
Last edited:
Comics SI that updates daily vs. a gay romance fanfic sticking to less-than-novella length without a happy ending, but definitive resolution?

@Omicron we need to introduce the nouveau roman to SV, stat! :V
Ah, yes, the nouveau roman. What were my thoughts on this again, Desproges?

"Marguerite Duras n'a pas écrit que des conneries! Elle en a filmé, aussi."


Thank you, Desproges.
 
Back
Top