Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
I'm sorry, I did not expect to have to justify "to be considered a derivative work of something, you have to have at least some elements in common with that something".
SV has an even problem
- Thread starter logiccosmic
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hellgodsrus
Actual Real Game Dev!
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I think Wormfics are being used more as an analogy. If you prefer we could shift to using HP fanfics as an analogy? They're certainly more common and thus would allow analysis of more general trends rather than specific fics.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Nah, using them as examples is fine, and in some ways a better idea for this conversation due to how prevalent they are on SV. But lets keep assumptions as to the fanbase's opinions out of things, shall we?
hellgodsrus
Actual Real Game Dev!
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If you're talking about me saying the majority of Worm fanfic writers don't like Worm - that's not an assumption. That's based on evidence in author's notes and discussions by authors and readers some of whom are in this thread.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
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- He/She/They
You can write, say, Bleach Fanfic without featuring any of the canon characters by exploring the setting outside those characters. You have an undue focus on characters.
A given original work typically offers a cast of characters, a worldmap, and a physics system to work with. Often, they also provide interesting cultures. You can throw out any number of these things in fanfic, as long they have common elements.
For example, a Naruto fanfic can explore the culture of Ninja and the hidden villages, a Bleach fanfic can deal with the interesting power sets and the setting rules of ghosts, such as by following around a non canonical Soul Reaper who, of course, has a Zanpukato and practices Kido, and so on.
To say you must use the characters of canon to be a fanfic is absurd, as it proposes that a high school AU of Naruto is fanfic, yet one set definitively in the past of Naruto itself, using the geography, society, and powers of the setting is somehow not fanfic, while being in many ways more intimately tied to canon, because after all going far enough into the past ensures an absence of nearly all canon characters.
This is absurd, continuing off the above. Yes, Taylor in Constellations doesn't act much like canon Taylor. But she is a point of divergence version of the same. She still has a father named Danny, she still lives in Brockton Bay, on Earth Bet, she deals with the PRT and so forth.
To write what you propose would either be a significantly divergent story, or else it would be a fanfic with the serial numbers filed off. We'd be replacing Cauldron with the mysterious organization, Bottle, and they'd have a woman with the power of Route To Success, which is totally not Path to Victory, and there'd be superpower providing space whales named, uh, Beings, which are definitely not Entities, and so on.
This entirely aside the Okami elements, where Amaterasu is very recognizable as her canon self.
- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I could say the same thing to you - you clearly have a very different definition of fanfiction and thus need to clarify it more clearly at the start of the argument as well. Perhaps we should both get in the habit of laying out definitions we'll be using before we start debating.
I'm not going to get into an argument on how right or wrong any given definition is. You may believe that your definition is correct, and you may very well be correct.
However, that's not the point. The point is the majority of people have another definition that they agree on that conflicts heavily with yours. Most people are going to assume that people judge the merits of fanfiction based on that definition. As such, it is important to clarify where you differ from the norm in your original post, so that users don't take what you say in a different way than is intended by you. Not only would doing this increase the clarity of your message, it would reduce the need for you to constantly have to derail threads with explanations and subsequent arguments.
If you just put something along the lines of, "In my opinion, fanfiction must maintain a certain level of connection and faith to the original work to be considered good fanfiction, even if it is good fiction." I guarantee you that people will understand you better. In addition, you will have a stronger starting point in an argument - no one can really argue with someone's opinion. I am not saying you are wrong or right to think as you do, I am saying you should work on how you get across that information.
Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
(indeed, see my previous posts about how conserving only the setting/worldbuilding but not the characters was also totally valid)
- Location
- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
hellgodsrus was just talking about characters, so it's not undue at all. It's just talking about what she was talking about.
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- The Great Beyond
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... They literally said it's not fanfic if you don't match the character's canon voices. In the part I quoted. They unconditionally said you must have the canon characters with their canon voices, or it's not fanfic. That is an undue focus on characters, end line.
hellgodsrus
Actual Real Game Dev!
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- Behind You
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Actually I didn't say that. I said if you have canon characters, using their canon voices - unless you have a damn good reason why that won't work in the story you're telling - is probably a good idea. This doesn't mean that every fanfic should have canon characters. Hell, some of the best characters in fanfiction I've read have been entirely OCs. But if you're writing a canon character, write them as that character, not an OC character wearing their skin like a suit.
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- The Great Beyond
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- He/She/They
Okay, sure. Except you are contradicting your prior words.
'Then you are not writing fanfic'. Straight up, no ambiguity. If you want to take that back, admit that's not true, sure. But it ain't what you first said.
hellgodsrus
Actual Real Game Dev!
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Ok, agreed, I misworded and worded too strongly. I'll go edit it for clarification - it was an over-exaggeration for effect, but you're right that it does muddy the waters.
- Location
- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
It was completely clear to me, there's nothing you need to change.
keios
very normal
- Location
- US
Actually, though, I feel that the intuitive answer to, "what is fanfiction?" and "what is good fanfiction" is closer to Vyslanté's than to mine, or that of others who also use the broad, all-encompassing, "art" definition. Who among us hasn't complained about reading ooc! characters? There is an implicit and intuitive understanding of fanfiction which follows along the lines of what canon has already laid down.
I don't happen to agree with Vyslanté, but I'd prefer to object to his viewpoint based on something other than the common usage precisely because I recognize the intuitive appeal and commonness of his position. The effort to use "fanfiction" in a broader sense is an effort to shine light on how the impulse to respond to or invent along or atop of other works is key to most types of creation, and to recognize just how innovative and transformative fanfiction can be, in every dimension. This is an uphill battle ! It always will be. There is an inherent tension in the expressive act of fanfiction because it is dependent upon interpretation.
When you look at fanfiction, and why people write it, when you really dig down into the reasons, what you find is incredibly human and real. Power fantasies which matter to people who have felt bullied; romances for people who have had none in their lives; worlds where people might escape some singular type of oppression. It's why I'm wary of conversations about fanfiction and creation which involve judging what others create or assuming you might know why they are doing it.
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- Hell
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- She/Her
Edit: My original post was more than a little toxic, and brought nothing but pointless toxicity to this thread. I apologize, but do still ask everyone to move on from this derail.
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- Location
- Los Angles
Here's my advice.
Write whatever the fuck you want.
Don't let other people tell you what you should write.
Write whatever the fuck you want.
Don't let other people tell you what you should write.
Report it instead of backseat moderating in all caps, then.
It makes you look neither reasonable nor gracious.
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- Hell
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True. I've let myself get too worked up on other things, and am taking it out here a little too much. I apologize for my lack of decorum, @keios.
keios
very normal
- Location
- US
I'm sorry. I was trying to chime in, not say that you are taking a side. Terrible wording on my part.Let me rephrase:
*than to other definitions being used. (I'll fix the quoted post right after I post this.)
And actually I feel this point is important when we talk about ... the "even" problem of SV which this thread is about? It is, in some sense, not off topic at all, because what makes good fanfiction or good fiction or good art is inherent in how we want to talk about changing the way we write fic on this forum.
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- Hell
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- She/Her
Well, it's not good fanfiction under either definition if you're substituting power levels and the like for good characterization and plot.
Let me rephrase:
*than to other definitions being used. (I'll fix the quoted post right after I post this.)
And actually I feel this point is important when we talk about ... the "even" problem of SV which this thread is about? It is, in some sense, not off topic at all, because what makes good fanfiction or good fiction or good art is inherent in how we want to talk about changing the way we write fic on this forum.
keios
very normal
- Location
- US
(doublepost sorry but I figure this way I can make sure you see it!)
Nah, it was my bad. I sort of read all the posts while not paying that much attention to who was saying what (only to what was being said), so I missed the context under which you were posting, especially since I see the "derail" as topical in some sense. <3 Thanks for watching out for thread sanity haha
Nah, it was my bad. I sort of read all the posts while not paying that much attention to who was saying what (only to what was being said), so I missed the context under which you were posting, especially since I see the "derail" as topical in some sense. <3 Thanks for watching out for thread sanity haha
logiccosmic
the Prince of Word Crimes
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- the Hague, formerly
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- He/Him