Ser_Serendipity
Building Character
There's significant overlap between the two, and besides, one wouldn't exist if the other didn't constantly cater to them.
SV has an even problem
- Thread starter logiccosmic
- Start date
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
I'm not sure that the whole fanon and what is or isn't appropriate fanfic is even that big a deal because I've only seen the issue get contentious in actual fanfic when the work is directly divergent off of a point in the original story where they want to portray the events of the story except with *INSERT DUMB BULLSHIT HERE*. And if you are writing a story that's meant to be a direct branch off the events of canon? Yeah, some fidelity to the source materiel and canon characterization is kinda warranted
Aside from those situations it and the whole what is fanfic question are problems purely in the abstract and there's not much point in arguing about it.
This is why I think people diversifying the reach of their stories to other communities is a pretty good idea. Like if you have a high fantasy story, sure, post it on SV, but you can also go put a link to it up on r/fantasy. That strikes me as a more appealing way to get people to read it than just warping your work to appeal to the already existing audience.
Unless we're talking about something that's going to yield actual success as a writer, there's nothing wrong with just being niche anyway. If you write something with immediate appeal you'll get an immediate audience sure. But the more unique and interesting the work is the bigger the chance that eventually it'll gain a following than if it's just generic trash that people will quickly forget about.
Aside from those situations it and the whole what is fanfic question are problems purely in the abstract and there's not much point in arguing about it.
This is why I think people diversifying the reach of their stories to other communities is a pretty good idea. Like if you have a high fantasy story, sure, post it on SV, but you can also go put a link to it up on r/fantasy. That strikes me as a more appealing way to get people to read it than just warping your work to appeal to the already existing audience.
Unless we're talking about something that's going to yield actual success as a writer, there's nothing wrong with just being niche anyway. If you write something with immediate appeal you'll get an immediate audience sure. But the more unique and interesting the work is the bigger the chance that eventually it'll gain a following than if it's just generic trash that people will quickly forget about.
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- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, like WhoAmEye will say, if you don't write for something popular, then no one will give you criticism and help you get better.
I want to write a fic where I can write a main character like myself (a bisexual dude with a healthy portion of dysphoria). The amount of people actually interested in that on this site is smaller that my savings account.
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no.
Pink Flamingo Cabal Grand Vizier
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Rule 4: Continuing Argument from Locked Thread
Popularity on this site could be defined in terms of both views and replies. If you go by views, which I do as it represents the total amount of consumption of the product, the most popular by a landslide is PMAS, or "Puella Magi Adfligo Systema"(god that fucking title. Yeah it's sort of correct latin but it doesn't exactly flow off the tongue), which I feel is pretty much the perfect representation of the problems raised in both this thread and mine.
The protagonist: The literal personification of this website, a being that does not actually exist within the setting in the traditional sense. An author insert in the most blunt manner imaginable. A simple and unassuming baseline personality, with character traits that are otherwise solely shaped by the voters. Most of the main characters adore her, or end up coming around to feel that way.
The plot: The protagonist gains incredible, immense power with setting-breaking capabilities immediately. The focus immediately shifts to just helping people's various problems, and becomes slow, plodding and unbelievably indulgent, with massive amounts of discussion and planning over every tiny action and line to the point where in four years and 5.5 thousand pages, about three weeks or so have passed in-game. There's a giant fucking google doc with like a dozen sections, devoted to keeping track of every little minutinae. It's not a plot really; it's just playing around in a sandbox. This is perhaps the worst example of "too much player freedom" I've ever seen.
The creepy thing: So, you know how in my thread the amount of discussion on what was originally the main point, the fetishization of lesbians, is in the minority? Well, in this unbelievably popular quest, the main character, the literal personification of SV, a site in which the majority of users are adults, ends up in a lesbian relationship with the 15 year old Mami Tomoe, and it's in that "man in a lesbian-suit" kind of way too. It's fucking creepy guys! It wouldn't be so awful and full of terrible implications if the main character wasn't literally this site personified, but she is. So it's literally just the entire(90% male) userbase of SV in a lesbian-suit dating a teenager. It's not a side thing either. The tags of the quest proudly state "dating mami tomoe", as if that's a mark of quality rather than blatant waifuism.
So yeah, the fact that it's going strong and doing so incredibly well says a lot about the state of this site.
The protagonist: The literal personification of this website, a being that does not actually exist within the setting in the traditional sense. An author insert in the most blunt manner imaginable. A simple and unassuming baseline personality, with character traits that are otherwise solely shaped by the voters. Most of the main characters adore her, or end up coming around to feel that way.
The plot: The protagonist gains incredible, immense power with setting-breaking capabilities immediately. The focus immediately shifts to just helping people's various problems, and becomes slow, plodding and unbelievably indulgent, with massive amounts of discussion and planning over every tiny action and line to the point where in four years and 5.5 thousand pages, about three weeks or so have passed in-game. There's a giant fucking google doc with like a dozen sections, devoted to keeping track of every little minutinae. It's not a plot really; it's just playing around in a sandbox. This is perhaps the worst example of "too much player freedom" I've ever seen.
The creepy thing: So, you know how in my thread the amount of discussion on what was originally the main point, the fetishization of lesbians, is in the minority? Well, in this unbelievably popular quest, the main character, the literal personification of SV, a site in which the majority of users are adults, ends up in a lesbian relationship with the 15 year old Mami Tomoe, and it's in that "man in a lesbian-suit" kind of way too. It's fucking creepy guys! It wouldn't be so awful and full of terrible implications if the main character wasn't literally this site personified, but she is. So it's literally just the entire(90% male) userbase of SV in a lesbian-suit dating a teenager. It's not a side thing either. The tags of the quest proudly state "dating mami tomoe", as if that's a mark of quality rather than blatant waifuism.
So yeah, the fact that it's going strong and doing so incredibly well says a lot about the state of this site.
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Once again, if you want either of that writing fanfiction isn't the best way to go about it anyway. Indeed in my experience chances are that the vast majority of comments you get, especially on boards like SB or SV, are counter-productive when it comes to creating a good story and you are far better of ignoring them (There is a reason why the reader mode is in my eyes the best feature ever developed for those sites). Writing fanfiction can teach you many useful things and help you grow as a writer but very few of those lessons are dependent on reader input.
And I have to say that as an fanfiction reader I really vastly canon characters even, or perhaps especially, with OC characterizations over fully fledged OC's. Short of a SI that is one of the surest ways to ensure I (and in my experience many others) will never read you works because why would I? Harry Potter in The Denarian Renegade has basically nothing in common with Rowlings HP but he is still Harry Potter and thus the key reason why I read that story.
And the only thing you accomplish by going Original Work is that you really start to compete with fully fledged authors like Mark Lawrence, Christian Cameron or Tolkien for my attention, interest and free time which in general won't end well for you. I expect a far, far higher level of quality when it comes to original content than I do for fanfiction where my passion for the fandom colores my experiences.
So I think this is correct in the exact wrong manner. To get at it, I want to split the reasons we write fanfic in twain and discuss them.
The first is that we like the toys that the original author made and want to play with them. These are cool characters or settings or plots that grabbed our imagination and won't let go, so of course we want to have our own stories set in them! We're a people of narrative and ain't nothing better than making new ones.
The second is that by placing your work within an existing framework you take a tremendous amount of work off both the author and the reader. The scaffolding is already there, the bones of the structure established. You don't need to explain what the Tailed Beasts or Chakra are in a Naruto fanfic nor do you need to build the Wizarding World from the ground up for Harry Potter. Often it means you can play off existing characterization; you're already familiar with these people so we have a leg up on their character arcs instead of having to spend a lot of time establishing them and getting right into the action. This is especially true when dealing with a larger cast from a TV show or long series where they get lots of background characterization via their own episodes or chapters but you want to take the plot in a different direction.
So when you say "this is a Teletubbies fanfic" you're often entering into a contract with your audience that you're going to work within these boundaries that you both understand. It's like a mini-genre; you don't spend half the book talking about the end of WW2 and rise of the Soviet Union to set up a Tom Clancy book because you assume the reader has the basics of better dead than red. Hence why a signifier such as "AU" is so important; you're telling the audience that you're building up something often entirely new and to abandon all hope that they would be able to rely on previous characterization and world building. Tinky Winky never kicked his alcoholism problem in this AU and the Moon Nazi invasion of Madagascar was a success, which completely changes Dipsy's characterization and ends up with a totally new plot, albeit one which is still broadly about tossing off the shackles of the Noo-noo.
Stories don't exist in the ether, just waiting to be plucked out; they form a connection with the reader's mind, a narrative bridge where the action happens. Making sure that it's up to code is important and a key job of the enterprising author. This doesn't mean in any way that you should simply cede to your reader's demands, but it does mean that when you're trying to share something with them, having the right expectations is important. Unless part of the story is having some expectations and then kicking them right out of this head which can be fun in its own right.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Eh...
It's just as likely that you'll just end up in a room full of people where both their praise and their criticisms will just reinforce bad habits. Whereas on the other hand if you write something interesting there's always a chance of attracting the attention of someone who's criticism is worth listening to.
I remember a situation a little while back (I'm not going to name names because it's besides the point) where someone did in fact write a Wormfic interesting enough to attract the attention of one of the more professional people on the site, who started giving critique, which the guy listened to, but the peanut gallery started gradually getting their knickers in a twist because the writer was focusing on the interesting parts of his work and not the big shooter optimizy bang bang crap and tried to "correct" him with their own critique.
There's always the chance that listening to the input of the SV/SB Gen Pop will actively screw you over when it comes to actually growing as a writer, and thus your chances of successfully writing something more interesting down the line.
Yet the LGBT demographic on this website includes some of the most well regarded users on the site. Who if you manage to write something they're interested in are far more likely to give you good advice and broadcast your work to other people in your wheelhouse than if you wrote something to appeal to the randos.
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Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
You can do this in any setting, (though game settings make it easier) or you can focus on less used characters or characters that only really get a passing mention. @Farmerbob1 wrote a worm fig set at the simurgh's first appearance focusing on an OC Will Coyote type case 53 and Mouse Protector. Wish I could remember the name of it because it was marvelously done. That said, the readers badgered him into adding a second epilogue that completely destroyed the purpose of the story which was to write a worm fig that didn't screw with canon at all
@1KBestK
I'll usually take at least a glance at things, but of something just hits my nope button I also just quietly dissapear. This is not to say that something isn't well written, but is either just not in my wheelhouse of enjoyment or just doesn't catch my mind.
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- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- What parts of my post you talking about here? it's not very clear.
- I disagree. I think sticking only to canon characters can kill a fandom's creativity. MLP's fanfic community got so tired as a whole before people decided to branch out from rehashes of the show with minor twists and all the same characters. But, this is majorly subjective, and not really something to argue about because of that. I guess we differ on what we want from fanfiction.
- I agree on that it's almost always a waste of time. A mediocre story in a world you like is more enjoyable than a mediocre original story, plain and simple.
There are way more than just those two reasons for writing fanfiction. Your point of view probably comes off as very dismissive to people who write for different reasons than those.
- That may be true, but just getting noticed at all, for me, would basically make me more motivated in general.
- I don't care if there's a handful of prominent and well regarded LGBTQ users. I care that I am in a tiny minority, one that is not talked about, not shown, and when we are, SV/SB brings down the hammer. I came here off of reading through a thread that tried to talk about the issue, and then became it's biggest example. Because I've seen the shit people get for having male gay characters. I don't want to market my fic as a LGBTQ fic, and try to get users in 'my wheelhouse' to spread the word, because that'd probably feel disingenuous. I've never written something creative that's more than 20k words. I've no idea how good I am at writing fiction. I'm probably terrible at a lot of basic things. Do you have any idea how much pressure I would feel if I start writing a fic and people start promoting me as one of SV's resident LGBTQ representatives? Plus, it's not like I want to make a romance. I just don't wan to have to pretend to be straight so the fucking hounds of Hell don't toxify my post then claim 'demographics' or some other platitude when it makes me upset. At this point, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place - Do I write a character I identify with, risking toxicity and a sense of pressure to represent the LGBTQ community, or do I not, and build up my resentment?
This is what SV does. People here jump on that shit. You have an opinion or a thought or something about you that you mention, and there's always someone there that's telling you you're a repressed homophobe for it, or just fishing for likes, or whateverthefuck. You have an opinion on something that's against the norm, and people yell you down. You see potential in something and people will dedicate threads to how worthless it is. It fills people like me who struggle to motivate themselves normally to not even want to try. And it's rarely explicit enough for anyone to report it. It's just the underlying sentiment of it all.
SV is a lovely place when you pretend to agree with everyone. People are nice, polite, and helpful. It really reminds me of South Korea, where there's this cultural thing about bringing stuff to light. Sure, there's issues, and maybe some people you ask will agree there's issues, but the moment you say it, you get drowned in 20 pages of "demographics," and are told that you're the one with a problem.
I dunno. I know it's a minority, a small percentage of us here on SV that do this, but it feels like they're everywhere. I guess it's that remembrance bias people put on negative things. There are plenty of wonderful, supporting people here, but at times like these, with the shitshow that was the other thread, it's harder and harder to see them.
Most of all, I hate guilt tripping people. I might even make a new account for my fics, because I don't want to have people coming to my fics because of sympathy.
Well, honestly: I've taken a good deal of effort into ensuring that it doesn't go into creepy or fetishistic territory. Nothing remotely sexual happens. Mami is a mental wreck for most part, even, and that's kind of deliberate. Granted, I'm biased, of course. I enjoy writing cute fluff, because, well... it's cute fluff.
As to the power fantasy... eh. To an extent, PMAS is a deliberate riff on the notion. For all the power the MC has, it's... barely useful, because the problems are rarely solvable with brute force. And I have a horrible problem with pacing, yes. I'm horrifically indulgent on that aspect, and I have a ton of fun worldbuilding and coming up with interesting characters.
Also? The MC is very much not me. And if anything, the character I identify with the most on a personal level is Oriko, who was an antagonist who got beaten up and put under house arrest.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
Blink twice if Squishy is standing behind you.And if anything, the character I identify with the most on a personal level is Oriko, who was an antagonist who got beaten up and put under house arrest.
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It
Hand yourself over.
Remain calm.
You should only plan to write...
WHATEVER YOU WAAAAAAAAANT.
[FUCK WHO'S WATCHING]
Honestly you should just write whatever you please. This is what people mean when they say "Fuck the haters".
I'm making a webcomic about a seven-foot-tall pansexual brown woman who drives a giant robot named "The Dragga", with a transgender captain, in a setting where this is so normalized that nobody blinks an eye at the sheer number of genderqueer and agender characters around.
I'm still kind of afraid of getting a that poster or a concern-trolling bigot, but then again, this story's all about giving an enormous "fuck you" to people anyway. So fuck it.
If you get shit for it, guess what, keep making it. The people giving you shit for that aren't worth listening to.
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no.
Pink Flamingo Cabal Grand Vizier
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Please understand that when I criticize your work I don't mean any personal offense. I know you're a good person and obviously you don't like, support pedophilia or whatever. It's just that the idea of the romance itself is something that, to me, has a lot of unsavory implications, due to the character explicitly representing SV the site. It's true that it's not like I read the entire thing; I just wanted to mention it because PMAS is something that doesn't appeal to me on any level and is the most popular quest on SV. Maybe I misrepresented something; if so I apologize,Well, honestly: I've taken a good deal of effort into ensuring that it doesn't go into creepy or fetishistic territory. Nothing remotely sexual happens. Mami is a mental wreck for most part, even, and that's kind of deliberate. Granted, I'm biased, of course. I enjoy writing cute fluff, because, well... it's cute fluff.
As to the power fantasy... eh. To an extent, PMAS is a deliberate riff on the notion. For all the power the MC has, it's... barely useful, because the problems are rarely solvable with brute force. And I have a horrible problem with pacing, yes. I'm horrifically indulgent on that aspect, and I have a ton of fun worldbuilding and coming up with interesting characters.
Also? The MC is very much not me. And if anything, the character I identify with the most on a personal level is Oriko, who was an antagonist who got beaten up and put under house arrest.
Also, I was saying that the MC is an insert for the players, not for you.
Edit: And the whole "date this cute teenage girl and help make her brain be not fucked" angle is one that in theory could be fine but in its widespread use also has somewhat sketchy implications to me.
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- Location
- Hell
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, the thing I need to improve the most on is quantity. As in, increasing it to a nonzero number. Discussion would be why I write.
-snip- Why the fuck did I write any of that shit. What am I doing today.
I guess reading the other thread really took a lot out of me today.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't know about anyone else but I'd absolutely be interested in that.
WhoAmEye
Bunker-Dwelling Cryptid
- Location
- Vault Birb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Why does a comedian tell jokes? To entertain, to get paid, to rise to fame? Why not all of the above?
I want to write something that will make people happy, will entertain them, or punch them in the feels when they're at their most emotionally invested as a display of skill. I write for the reactions. I write for the chance to improve with my readers seeing what I can't, and give me methods to progress with it.
It's not the haters. It's the absolute absence of audience. It's the positivity, the pat on the back, the devious insightful readers, the discussion, the exploration of consequences.
If I just write what I want, for myself, then it's like a comedian telling jokes to an empty room. No reactions, no way to gauge how good it is, no opportunities to see where I might be failing or might be brilliant. There's just... nothing. And that's the most damning part of it all.
What's the point when it's so much better in your head?
Can I introduce you to the concept of the "sandbox game/open world". For example; Minecraft was sold to Microsoft for 2.5 billion Euros. So yes, this is a bloody popular style of gaming.
Additionally "Slice of life" is additionally a popular, and old, concept.
no.
Pink Flamingo Cabal Grand Vizier
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I understand the appeal of open-world and sandbox games. I just think it doesn't work for making a compelling quest. There needs to be some form of structure, and unlimited voter freedom is madness.
WhoAmEye
Bunker-Dwelling Cryptid
- Location
- Vault Birb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I want to disagree: but the only quest I actually participate in is Terrene Spire by @Dexexe1234 and it's a original art based quest
Stop: Threads are Locked for a Reason
Ellf
Apprentice Wizard
- Location
- Virginia
threads are locked for a reason
@no. The thread "SV has an Odd Problem" was locked for a reason. Dragging arguments from one thread to another is highly disruptive, especially with this post:
It just seems like you're coming in to continue the argument of a locked thread. Sure, you try and walk it back a bit with this post:
The bolded, however, is questionable. This continues the disruption.
I'm going to give you 25 points and give you a threadban for three days under Rule 4. Don't drag arguments from locked threads into another thread to continue them.
@no. The thread "SV has an Odd Problem" was locked for a reason. Dragging arguments from one thread to another is highly disruptive, especially with this post:
It just seems like you're coming in to continue the argument of a locked thread. Sure, you try and walk it back a bit with this post:
The bolded, however, is questionable. This continues the disruption.
I'm going to give you 25 points and give you a threadban for three days under Rule 4. Don't drag arguments from locked threads into another thread to continue them.
- Location
- HELL
- Pronouns
- They/It
Maybe I should've been more clear.
Of course you're not putting stuff on the internet for nobody but yourself, and I'm not putting this thing on the comic just for me.
It costs me money, time and effort. Comics are hard shit; if it were myself and me alone, then it would feel like an enormous, frustrating waste of time. But produce good work and you'll get that attention. You produce it constantly and consistently. You fail and then you eventually learn to succeed.
It takes a lot of failure to get to a point where you finally produce work that's as good as you envisioned it...well, at least, you produce work that might've been there a few years ago.
Because bluntly, the point where it's so much better in your head is 'always'. You will NEVER produce work that is as good as you hoped it would be.
But to everyone else, your work is probably brilliant.
- Location
- The Intellectual, Moral, and Literal High Ground
Going back to the original post, one line in particular caught my eye.
But at the same time the idea of idolization has been used as a weapon. Which is why I appreciate the OP being able to spell out in exact words what the problem was without falling into the common traps that come with criticizing something popular. Rather than attack people for enjoying power fantasies he chose to ask questions and make it a discussion where the users could find a way to make something productive out of it.
So for my actual question: how should we fix this disparity? Inviting people who write non-power fantasies to come here, holding contests (somehow), or burying @Strypgia under a literal mountain of cash?
I want to focus on the use of "idolizes." Some people might say that comparing stories or authors to objects of worship is an exaggeration, but I'd argue the opposite. The tendency to put things and people that make you feel good about yourself on a pedestal is an extremely human behavior that happens all too often in just about every category. All too often I've seen kneejerk reactions when the object of "worship" is criticized. All too often I see "and I hope the author never sees your criticism" said.
But at the same time the idea of idolization has been used as a weapon. Which is why I appreciate the OP being able to spell out in exact words what the problem was without falling into the common traps that come with criticizing something popular. Rather than attack people for enjoying power fantasies he chose to ask questions and make it a discussion where the users could find a way to make something productive out of it.
So for my actual question: how should we fix this disparity? Inviting people who write non-power fantasies to come here, holding contests (somehow), or burying @Strypgia under a literal mountain of cash?
WhoAmEye
Bunker-Dwelling Cryptid
- Location
- Vault Birb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And that's the problem I'm pretty sure this thread is trying to discuss. Or, was made to discuss, at any rate. The line between 'good' and 'approved' is blurred to the point where a genuinely good piece of work could be left in obscurity because SV just doesn't feel it has enough super-duper-power-levels or curbstomp to it.
Self-diagnosis with creative work, at least of the written kind, can be incredibly difficult. Even harder to utilize.
If you produce good work you'll get attention. Okay. So why does my Kung Fu Taylor fic, which has... almost every character have next to zero characterization thought put into them, Taylor In Name Only, fuckall plot, somehow end up what is, per post, my overwhelmingly most popular story? Is it good? I certainly don't think so. But it's... while not constant, at least consistent, and has attention.
This is why it's a problem.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
You'll want to run anything like that past staff. You aren't allowed to have multiple accounts on SV normally.
While I realize no. is threadbanned right now, I feel the need to comment that I have never seen a quest with unlimited freedom, because, well, that's basically straight dictating updates to the QM.
Your typical quest limits your control to a single character or organization, even if it leaves you free to try anything. Structure is built into the world, where there are rules of the setting and characters with their own interests to advance. Failure is almost always possible, of some kind, and even the most powerful characters have to worry about social perception.
And I'd say handing the questers a situation rather than goals can work very well for quests- questers will make their own goals and pursue them. Some of the most goal driven quests I participate in, with a character with a lot of drive and focus, were created as open ended sandboxes, in the sense that no goal was assigned to us, the players. But people cared about things like basic survival and assorted other characters fates, and so the collective playerbase went out and took the initiative.
Certainly, it requires skill to write one well, but it's a perfectly viable format.