Ser_Serendipity
Building Character
There's significant overlap between the two, and besides, one wouldn't exist if the other didn't constantly cater to them.I thought this thread was to discuss a problem with the readers, not the writers.
There's significant overlap between the two, and besides, one wouldn't exist if the other didn't constantly cater to them.I thought this thread was to discuss a problem with the readers, not the writers.
I think that chasing a specific audience by catering to the "particulars of the forum" is actually a bad investment of energy and time in the long term.
I want to write a fic where I can write a main character like myself (a bisexual dude with a healthy portion of dysphoria). The amount of people actually interested in that on this site is smaller that my savings account.This is why I think people diversifying the reach of their stories to other communities is a pretty good idea. Like if you have a high fantasy story, sure, post it on SV, but you can also go put a link to it up on r/fantasy. That strikes me as a more appealing way to get people to read it than just warping your work to appeal to the already existing audience.
Unless we're talking about something that's going to yield actually success as a writer, there's nothing wrong with just being niche anyway. If you write something with immediate appeal you'll get an immediate audience sure. But the more unique and interesting the work is the bigger the chance that eventually it'll gain a following than if it's just generic trash that people will quickly forget about.
Well, like WhoAmEye will say, if you don't write for something popular, then no one will give you criticism and help you get better.
I want to write a fic where I can write a main character like myself (a bisexual dude with a healthy portion of dysphoria). The amount of people actually interested in that on this site is smaller that my savings account.
So I think this is correct in the exact wrong manner. To get at it, I want to split the reasons we write fanfic in twain and discuss them.This phrasing is very telling. Don't "lure in unwitting fans" - fanfiction that makes some of the original work's fans feel mislead or bad or cheated is doing something wrong, and therefore should not be doing that thing at all.
This isn't philosophy of writing, it's philosophy of reading. It's the same attitude that leads people down the road to saying that fix that doesn't cater to them shouldn't be bad, and asking writers to please write my awesome idea for me, and to leaving comments asking the writer to make the protagonist win more.
Getting a story you didn't expect is not a betrayal from the author. There is no contract inked in blood in testament to the author's need to give fans something for them. Yes, fanfic is often very communal and performative and written for other fans to their expectations and wants for indulegence - that's fine. But it's not inherently and that kind of reader entitlement is rank.
Indeed, many characters in canon are often poorly suited to the original story's aim - why then would they necessarily fit well to fanfic? Tumors are perfectly natural but that doesn't mean that you would condemn someone for having one removed - benign or not. If anything, the ones that aren't obviously harmful can be more insidious, because if it doesn't fit your story purposes, and if it isn't working for something, it is the job of the writer to cut like a butcher.
Well, like WhoAmEye will say, if you don't write for something popular, then no one will give you criticism and help you get better..
I want to write a fic where I can write a main character like myself (a bisexual dude with a healthy portion of dysphoria). The amount of people actually interested in that on this site is smaller that my savings account.
You can write, say, Bleach Fanfic without featuring any of the canon characters by exploring the setting outside those characters. You have an undue focus on characters.
1. Once again, if you want either of that writing fanfiction isn't the best way to go about it anyway. Indeed in my experience chances are that the vast majority of comments you get, especially on boards like SB or SV, are counter-productive when it comes to creating a good story and you are far better of ignoring them (There is a reason why the reader mode is in my eyes the best feature ever developed for those sites). Writing fanfiction can teach you many useful things and help you grow as a writer but very few of those lessons are dependent on reader input.
2. And I have to say that as an fanfiction reader I really vastly canon characters even, or perhaps especially, with OC characterizations over fully fledged OC's. Short of a SI that is one of the surest ways to ensure I (and in my experience many others) will never read you works because why would I? Harry Potter in The Denarian Renegade has basically nothing in common with Rowlings HP but he is still Harry Potter and thus the key reason why I read that story.
3. And the only thing you accomplish by going Original Work is that you really start to compete with fully fledged authors like Mark Lawrence, Christian Cameron or Tolkien for my attention, interest and free time which in general won't end well for you. I expect a far, far higher level of quality when it comes to original content than I do for fanfiction where my passion for the fandom colores my experiences.
There are way more than just those two reasons for writing fanfiction. Your point of view probably comes off as very dismissive to people who write for different reasons than those.So I think this is correct in the exact wrong manner. To get at it, I want to split the reasons we write fanfic in twain and discuss them.
Eh...
1. It's just as likely that you'll just end up in a room full of people where both their praise and their criticisms will just reinforce bad habits. Whereas on the other hand if you write something interesting there's always a chance of attracting the attention of someone who's criticism is worth listening to.
I remember a situation a little while back (I'm not going to name names because it's besides the point) where someone did in fact write a Wormfic interesting enough to attract the attention of one of the more professional people on the site, who started giving critique, which the guy listened to, but the peanut gallery started gradually getting their knickers in a twist because the writer was focusing on the interesting parts of his work and not the big shooter optimizy bang bang crap and tried to "correct" him with their own critique.
There's always the chance that listening to the input of the SV/SB Gen Pop will actively screw you over when it comes to actually growing as a writer, and thus your chances of successfully writing something more interesting down the line.
2. Yet the LGBT demographic on this website includes some of the most well regarded users on the site. Who if you manage to write something they're interested in are far more likely to give you good advice and broadcast your work to other people in your wheelhouse than if you wrote something to appeal to the randos.
Well, honestly: I've taken a good deal of effort into ensuring that it doesn't go into creepy or fetishistic territory. Nothing remotely sexual happens. Mami is a mental wreck for most part, even, and that's kind of deliberate. Granted, I'm biased, of course. I enjoy writing cute fluff, because, well... it's cute fluff.Popularity on this site could be defined in terms of both views and replies. If you go by views, which I do as it represents the total amount of consumption of the product, the most popular by a landslide is PMAS, or "Puella Magi Adfligo Systema"(god that fucking title. Yeah it's sort of correct latin but it doesn't exactly flow off the tongue), which I feel is pretty much the perfect representation of the problems raised in both this thread and mine.
The protagonist: The literal personification of this website, a being that does not actually exist within the setting in the traditional sense. An author insert in the most blunt manner imaginable. A simple and unassuming baseline personality, with character traits that are otherwise solely shaped by the voters. Most of the main characters adore her, or end up coming around to feel that way.
The plot: The protagonist gains incredible, immense power with setting-breaking capabilities immediately. The focus immediately shifts to just helping people's various problems, and becomes slow, plodding and unbelievably indulgent, with massive amounts of discussion and planning over every tiny action and line to the point where in four years and 5.5 thousand pages, about three weeks or so have passed in-game. There's a giant fucking google doc with like a dozen sections, devoted to keeping track of every little minutinae. It's not a plot really; it's just playing around in a sandbox. This is perhaps the worst example of "too much player freedom" I've ever seen.
The creepy thing: So, you know how in my thread the amount of discussion on what was originally the main point, the fetishization of lesbians, is in the minority? Well, in this unbelievably popular quest, the main character, the literal personification of SV, a site in which the majority of users are adults, ends up in a lesbian relationship with the 15 year old Mami Tomoe, and it's in that "man in a lesbian-suit" kind of way too. It's fucking creepy guys! It wouldn't be so awful and full of terrible implications if the main character wasn't literally this site personified, but she is. So it's literally just the entire(90% male) userbase of SV in a lesbian-suit dating a teenager. It's not a side thing either. The tags of the quest proudly state "dating mami tomoe", as if that's a mark of quality rather than blatant waifuism.
So yeah, the fact that it's going strong and doing so incredibly well says a lot about the state of this site.
What parts of my post you talking about here? it's not very clear.
Well, like WhoAmEye will say, if you don't write for something popular, then no one will give you criticism and help you get better.
Blink twice if Squishy is standing behind you.And if anything, the character I identify with the most on a personal level is Oriko, who was an antagonist who got beaten up and put under house arrest.
Hand yourself over.Do I write a character I identify with, risking toxicity and a sense of pressure to represent the LGBTQ community, or do I not, and build up my resentment?
Please understand that when I criticize your work I don't mean any personal offense. I know you're a good person and obviously you don't like, support pedophilia or whatever. It's just that the idea of the romance itself is something that, to me, has a lot of unsavory implications, due to the character explicitly representing SV the site. It's true that it's not like I read the entire thing; I just wanted to mention it because PMAS is something that doesn't appeal to me on any level and is the most popular quest on SV. Maybe I misrepresented something; if so I apologize,Well, honestly: I've taken a good deal of effort into ensuring that it doesn't go into creepy or fetishistic territory. Nothing remotely sexual happens. Mami is a mental wreck for most part, even, and that's kind of deliberate. Granted, I'm biased, of course. I enjoy writing cute fluff, because, well... it's cute fluff.
As to the power fantasy... eh. To an extent, PMAS is a deliberate riff on the notion. For all the power the MC has, it's... barely useful, because the problems are rarely solvable with brute force. And I have a horrible problem with pacing, yes. I'm horrifically indulgent on that aspect, and I have a ton of fun worldbuilding and coming up with interesting characters.
Also? The MC is very much not me. And if anything, the character I identify with the most on a personal level is Oriko, who was an antagonist who got beaten up and put under house arrest.
Well, the thing I need to improve the most on is quantity. As in, increasing it to a nonzero number. Discussion would be why I write.
-snip- Why the fuck did I write any of that shit. What am I doing today.Hand yourself over.
Remain calm.
You should only plan to write...
WHATEVER YOU WAAAAAAAAANT.
[FUCK WHO'S WATCHING]
Honestly you should just write whatever you please. This is what people mean when they say "Fuck the haters".
I'm making a webcomic about a seven-foot-tall pansexual brown woman who drives a giant robot named "The Dragga", with a transgender captain, in a setting where this is so normalized that nobody blinks an eye at the sheer number of genderqueer and agender characters around.
I'm still kind of afraid of getting a that poster or a concern-trolling bigot, but then again, this story's all about giving an enormous "fuck you" to people anyway. So fuck it.
If you get shit for it, guess what, keep making it. The people giving you shit for that aren't worth listening to.
I don't know about anyone else but I'd absolutely be interested in that.As far as I can tell, there's hardly a demand for MTG fics with an accurately represented color pie philosophy in conjunction with proper, non op Neowalkers, nor a desire for more SI/OC fics, and especially ones that aren't powerwank. My brainstorms are in this crossroads of demographics. Multicross SI/OC, but no power level stuff. LGBTQ main character and maybe a few side characters, but not romance. MTG, but again, no power level stuff.
You should only plan to write...
WHATEVER YOU WAAAAAAAAANT.
[FUCK WHO'S WATCHING]
Honestly you should just write whatever you please. This is what people mean when they say "Fuck the haters".
Can I introduce you to the concept of the "sandbox game/open world". For example; Minecraft was sold to Microsoft for 2.5 billion Euros. So yes, this is a bloody popular style of gaming.So yeah, the fact that it's going strong and doing so incredibly well says a lot about the state of this site.
I understand the appeal of open-world and sandbox games. I just think it doesn't work for making a compelling quest. There needs to be some form of structure, and unlimited voter freedom is madness.Can I introduce you to the concept of the "sandbox game/open world". For example; Minecraft was sold to Microsoft for 2.5 billion Euros. So yes, this is a bloody popular style of gaming.
Additionally "Slice of life" is additionally a popular, and old, concept.
I want to disagree: but the only quest I actually participate in is Terrene Spire by @Dexexe1234 and it's a original art based questI understand the appeal of open-world and sandbox games. I just think it doesn't work for making a compelling quest. There needs to be some form of structure, and unlimited voter freedom is madness.
Popularity on this site could be defined in terms of both views and replies. If you go by views, which I do as it represents the total amount of consumption of the product, the most popular by a landslide is PMAS, or "Puella Magi Adfligo Systema"(god that fucking title. Yeah it's sort of correct latin but it doesn't exactly flow off the tongue), which I feel is pretty much the perfect representation of the problems raised in both this thread and mine.
The protagonist: The literal personification of this website, a being that does not actually exist within the setting in the traditional sense. An author insert in the most blunt manner imaginable. A simple and unassuming baseline personality, with character traits that are otherwise solely shaped by the voters. Most of the main characters adore her, or end up coming around to feel that way.
The plot: The protagonist gains incredible, immense power with setting-breaking capabilities immediately. The focus immediately shifts to just helping people's various problems, and becomes slow, plodding and unbelievably indulgent, with massive amounts of discussion and planning over every tiny action and line to the point where in four years and 5.5 thousand pages, about three weeks or so have passed in-game. There's a giant fucking google doc with like a dozen sections, devoted to keeping track of every little minutinae. It's not a plot really; it's just playing around in a sandbox. This is perhaps the worst example of "too much player freedom" I've ever seen.
The creepy thing: So, you know how in my thread the amount of discussion on what was originally the main point, the fetishization of lesbians, is in the minority? Well, in this unbelievably popular quest, the main character, the literal personification of SV, a site in which the majority of users are adults, ends up in a lesbian relationship with the 15 year old Mami Tomoe, and it's in that "man in a lesbian-suit" kind of way too. It's fucking creepy guys! It wouldn't be so awful and full of terrible implications if the main character wasn't literally this site personified, but she is. So it's literally just the entire(90% male) userbase of SV in a lesbian-suit dating a teenager. It's not a side thing either. The tags of the quest proudly state "dating mami tomoe", as if that's a mark of quality rather than blatant waifuism.
So yeah, the fact that it's going strong and doing so incredibly well says a lot about the state of this site.
Please understand that when I criticize your work I don't mean any personal offense. I know you're a good person and obviously you don't like, support pedophilia or whatever. It's just that the idea of the romance itself is something that, to me, has a lot of unsavory implications, due to the character explicitly representing SV the site. It's true that it's not like I read the entire thing; I just wanted to mention it because PMAS is something that doesn't appeal to me on any level and is the most popular quest on SV. Maybe I misrepresented something; if so I apologize,
Also, I was saying that the MC is an insert for the players, not for you.
Edit: And the whole "date this cute teenage girl and help make her brain be not fucked" angle is one that in theory could be fine but in its widespread use also has somewhat sketchy implications to me.
Maybe I should've been more clear.
I want to focus on the use of "idolizes." Some people might say that comparing stories or authors to objects of worship is an exaggeration, but I'd argue the opposite. The tendency to put things and people that make you feel good about yourself on a pedestal is an extremely human behavior that happens all too often in just about every category. All too often I've seen kneejerk reactions when the object of "worship" is criticized. All too often I see "and I hope the author never sees your criticism" said.
But produce good work and you'll get that attention. You produce it constantly and consistently. You fail and then you eventually learn to succeed.
It takes a lot of failure to get to a point where you finally produce work that's as good as you envisioned it...well, at least, you produce work that might've been there a few years ago.
Most of all, I hate guilt tripping people. I might even make a new account for my fics, because I don't want to have people coming to my fics because of sympathy.
I understand the appeal of open-world and sandbox games. I just think it doesn't work for making a compelling quest. There needs to be some form of structure, and unlimited voter freedom is madness.