Am I missing something? I thought they would pay full price (500XP) for each Element since they can't buy jutsu to refund. Can they buy the stunts with their "refund" XP?
Thanks for the information. That means they cant get absurd S-rankers like that but they still get 3 x 80 + 4 x 70 for under 30k XP, including Sealing and Chakra Reserves in the 70s haha. Without the two double cost skills they can do it under 25k XP, which is just an average Jounin.
Pretty much. Not quite as dangerous as an equivalent ninja due to lacking Substitution and the variety of ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc tricks but you are still a big threat with stats and stunts like that.
Also though, I don't personally lump them into the same demographics as ninjas. Actually same even goes for Eastern Continent.
In this case, compared to EN villages, the majority Samurai of Iron tend more towards 'chuunin' strength than 'genin' (though it's not a 1 to 1 classification) but often cap out closer to spec jonin strength with a handful of stronger ones. Mifune is the only one to be considered "S-Rank" equivalent as far as you've heard (caveat that I have not done much worldbuilding for Sea yet which also has Samurai.)
Hazou in MfD has 17k XP, for comparison, and generally a regular ninja needs 20k XP to get a 70 skill, by which time this has an 89.
I can see getting to "S-rank" being harder for Samurai than for ninja with an 89 skill cap but a horde of 80 skill samurai with SJ XP feels like it would absolutely murder even S-rankers, let alone jounin, where they are a match for an elite jounin in 1 on 1 combat it feels like, while needing 11.6k less XP. And by the time of XP parity with an elite jounin ninja, they become 2 x 89, 3 x 79, including Kage-level Sealing. With bloodlines being very powerful on Samurai given their inability to get ninjutsu/genjutsu and buffs, there should likely be Bloodline Samurai Clans off that alone, also.
(Also not fully locked in to the xp costs of the Samurai Stunts and was considering making them more expensive, but wanted some player feedback on them before making changes.)
Originally I was considering 250/500/750 xp or 250/375/500 xp but I think the former might be too far the other way.
See the table I posted above - its actually an absurd 15.6k XP for an AB 9 capstone on a Samurai, with 3 Samurai Paths (+their Elements) and MW 80, Ath 70, Alt 70, Resolve 50, Physique 40, CR 40 and some nice supporting skills at 30 and below.
Another thing to note is the scaling of Stress Tracks and Consequence Slots for high Physique/Resolve. An elite samurai can get them in 70 or even 80 slots, at which point they have a Stress Track of 6 and 3 Mild, 1 Medium, 1 Severe slots, so it takes 20 Stress to kill them, whereas most Ninja die from 13 Stress (40 Physique dies from 14).
I do like how Samurai and Ninja feel different though, its not necessarily a bad thing. Its probably a good thing.
See the table I posted above - its actually an absurd 15.6k XP for an AB 9 capstone on a Samurai, with 3 Samurai Paths (+their Elements) and MW 80, Ath 70, Alt 70, Resolve 50, Physique 40, CR 40 and some nice supporting skills at 30 and below.
Huh, I must have mistyped in the calculator somewhere when originally doing it. Probably mixed up a + with a * sign. So its 17585 XP + 820 for Chakra Reserves 40 extra because its double cost = 18405 XP. Edited.
Its still an SJ XP number, though. Getting 1 x 80, 2 x 70 before ninja get 1 x 70 2 x 60 is rather insane, and while you lose the flexibility of Ninjutsu & Genjutsu, the only real sacrifice is Substitution since you can get a buff with Martial Art Stunts, Sealing or something exotic like Sage Mode.
(Also not fully locked in to the xp costs of the Samurai Stunts and was considering making them more expensive, but wanted some player feedback on them before making changes.)
Originally I was considering 250/500/750 xp or 250/375/500 xp but I think the former might be too far the other way.
Given the pyramid advantages it seems like they should be able to shit out 80s tier combatants at 20k XP. So I would say make them more expensive, maybe *much* more.
Ninja (Water Dragon Bullet) : 69 (Base) + 7 (WDB AB) + 10 (2 AB Ninjutsu 40 Buff) + 7 (Boost) = 93, 7 attacks
Ninja (Athletics) : 59 (Base) + 20 (Sub 39) + 10 (2 AB Ninjutsu 40 Buff) + 7 (Boost) = 96, costs a Supplemental or else its just 76.
The MW roll is applicable to melee counterattacks too, mind you. The Samurai additionally gets +2 Weapon Rating, ignores 1 Armor, gets to move 2x per round with Supplementals (and doesnt have to save them for Sub etc), +2 Zones per Standard Sprint over their Athletics AB...
Oh and the Samurai just burns a flat 135 CP per Round here on +27 Boost so CR 40 lasts them for 3 rounds just fine, while CR 40 would be a lot for a SJ ninja as is and ninjutsu + boost can cost more. The gulf is rather insane.
Given the pyramid advantages it seems like they should be able to shit out 80s tier combatants at 20k XP. So I would say make them more expensive, maybe *much* more.
How often are they surviving to 20k XP, assuming they regularly go up against jonin/specjo ninja when they're 50s-70s? That one Lightning samurai/ninja matchup favored the ninja's defense a bit and I'm guessing the samurai's defense roll can't go as high sans Substitution.
Given the pyramid advantages it seems like they should be able to shit out 80s tier combatants at 20k XP. So I would say make them more expensive, maybe *much* more.
Hm... Or maybe Samurai generate much less XP than ninja? Maybe their honor-based culture requires that they do more administrative and bureaucratic work than ninja do, so they have less time to train.
This would mean that the average Samurai is weaker, but that their society is more stable than that of ninja.
Given the pyramid advantages it seems like they should be able to shit out 80s tier combatants at 20k XP. So I would say make them more expensive, maybe *much* more.
I concur, I would say they should cost at half as much as the pyramid tiers they unlock to make them effectively halfcost which you can do with ninjutsu, for the same opportunity cost of not having base stats at the tier.
1st Path Stunt : 132.5 XP
2nd Path Stunt : 642.5 XP
3rd Path Stunt : 1552.5 XP
Total : 2 327.5 XP
Essentially the 2nd and especially 3rd Stunts need to be costlier, while the 1st could be cheaper, or the cost could be redistributed between the three to encourage specialization in low XP Samurai rather than going deep into a Path, like with elements, which already sorta do this.
I would propose :
1st Path Stunt : 300 XP
2nd Path Stunt : 500 XP
3rd Path Stunt : 1500 XP
I was sort of envisioning this, but come to think of it it's probably best to make them comparable in xp just for the sake of re-using this stuff for the tabletop if someone wants to play that background.
How often are they surviving to 20k XP, assuming they regularly go up against jonin/specjo ninja when they're 50s-70s? That one Lightning samurai/ninja matchup favored the ninja's defense a bit and I'm guessing the samurai's defense roll can't go as high sans Substitution.
At the moment Samurai absolutely destroy ninja at XP parity (above genin level) - the advantage builds up to its most drastic around 20k XP where a Samurai can easily oneshot a Ninja through Sub, invokes, rerolls and whatnot while the Ninja cant even hit them, then starts closing in.
By 30k XP the two are mostly evenly matched, by 40k XP the Samurai start getting demolished hard defensively, but can still hit the ninja just fine and are also not bound by Supplemental Sub economy like ninja tend to be. Even 30k XP is already elite jounin level though and very rare.
20k is enough for a ninja to get a 79, even with the purchase of additional elements and a doublecost research stat as a secondary skill. The builds I've posted for Kenzo, Shion, and Momoka all end up with a 70s capstone at around that xp amount.
20k is enough for a ninja to get a 79, even with the purchase of additional elements and a doublecost research stat as a secondary skill. The builds I've posted for Kenzo, Shion, and Momoka all end up with a 70s capstone at around that xp amount.
I think the main difference/disparity is ninjas have a lot of stuff worth diverting builds for but as of now there's not much for Samurai to buy. I do want to make some more Stunts for them to have some Maneuvers and weapon tricks and whatnot eventually...
This also means that, with equivalent stats, ninja are way better than Samurai, but that is somewhat intended
20k is enough for a ninja to get a 79, even with the purchase of additional elements and a doublecost research stat as a secondary skill. The builds I've posted for Kenzo, Shion, and Momoka all end up with a 70s capstone at around that xp amount.
1 x 79 = 3160
2 x 69 = 4830
1 x 59 (Doublecost, like Sealing or Genjutsu), 2 x 50 = 6090
1 x 40 (Doublecost CR), 3 x 40 = 4100
5 x 30 = 2325
6 x 20 = 1260
7 x 10 = 385
Sums up to 22150 XP for the narrowest balanced pyramid, without any Elements or Stunts.
If you buy 1 Element and 500 XP of Stunts, the total is over 23k.
This is 1 x 79, 2 x 69 to be fair, but you dont generally break into the 70s until 20k and the main 3 stats are generally X9'd fast once you do.
1 x 79 = 3160
2 x 69 = 4830
1 x 59 (Doublecost, like Sealing or Genjutsu), 2 x 50 = 6090
1 x 40 (Doublecost CR), 3 x 40 = 4100
5 x 30 = 2325
6 x 20 = 1260
7 x 10 = 385
Sums up to 22150 for the narrowest balanced pyramid, and thats without say an Extra Element and 500 XP worth of Stunts, which makes the total over 23k.
You're forgetting that knowledge skills and most elemental jutsu will be half cost in your pyramid. Kenzo's build, for example, has smithing in the 50s which saves >600 xp by itself, not to mention the various half cost water and wind jutsu supports.
You're forgetting that knowledge skills and most elemental jutsu will be half cost in your pyramid. Kenzo's build, for example, has smithing in the 50s which saves >600 xp by itself, not to mention the various half cost water and wind jutsu supports.
It doesnt save that much considering you have to buy the elements to benefit from it - and it comes at a significant loss of power because your base stats are lower if you do that but sure, you can save some costs. The same applies to the Samurai though - they can use halfcost supports just as much as a ninja can. So if we're planning for that then the Samurai can also save a few thousand XP doing it and get to 80s even faster.
What Im saying is that at current costs and equivalent-ish builds, a Samurai hits 80 about 2k XP before a Ninja hits 70. And then MW 79 -> 89 plus Athletics and Alertness 69 -> 79 only cost 2335 XP combined once you do that. So a Samurai is MW 89, Ath 79, Alt 79 when a Ninja is 69, 59, 59. When a ninja is 79, 69, 69, a Samurai is 89, 80, 79, 79, 70, 60 in all likelihood, and they still win.
Samurai always start first vs Ninja remember (without Alt boost ninjutsu), because their Alertness can be 20 levels above the Ninja's Primary Tier. Even if the samurai gets tertiary alertness (and primaries Physique or Resolve or whatever) and the ninja manages to get to the 70s, their primary is probably not alertness, so the Samurai still goes first (and oneshots because they are rolling at 140+ without invokes and with high WR).
Not really sure where you would slot them in to yalls max efficiency pyramids, they seem mostly limited to the 10s and 20s where the savings aren't worth much
Given the pyramid advantages it seems like they should be able to shit out 80s tier combatants at 20k XP. So I would say make them more expensive, maybe *much* more.
Not really sure where you would slot them in to yalls max efficiency pyramids, they seem mostly limited to the 10s and 20s where the savings aren't worth much
3 x 30, 4 x 20, 5 x 10 is 1255 XP saved if you take halfcost skills instead of full cost ones, so you can technically hit MW 80, Ath 70, Alt 70, Resolve 50, Physique 40, CR 40 with 17150 XP. Which gets you MW 89, Ath 79, Alt 79 by 19265 XP. Essentially assuming you dont go crazy on Stunts, by 20k XP a Samurai is likely 89, 79, 79 and ready to widen their pyramid to get extra 80s and 70s, at which point they will need supports, at which point they will keep getting huge savings by grabbing Path Stunts to do so, so that they can fit the base skills higher up the tiers.
A ninja build that focuses on halfcosts and avoids taking anything doublecost other than CR can just barely get 79, 69, 69 by 20k XP, but an equivalent Samurai build will have hit 89, 79, 79 earlier and would have started on the widening process already. Not to mention that at 18k XP, this Samurai would have already had 80s while the Ninja would have still been stuck in the 60s.
Realistic ninja builds :
22-23k XP : 1x79, 2x69
32-33k XP : 1x89, 2x79
Realistic samurai builds :
18-19k XP : 1x80, 2x70
20-21k XP : 1x89, 2x79
32-33K XP : 3x89, 4x79
Momoka's build is very similar to Kenzo's, though it swaps out Melee Weapons for Ranged Weapons, and Genjutsu for Sealing. The premise is to use Ranged Weapons as a vehicle for delivering deadly seals, as well as giving Momoka the utility that comes from high level sealing. Due to worldbuidling differences, I don't believe these seals will be able to be shared widely, but that's okay as Momoka is a core party member and she can just use them herself when needed. This path keeps Momoka's secondary skills of Survival and Examination, so she will continue to be our tracker/outdoorsy person. Stealth and medical tertiaries are self explanatory, and Technique Hacking is there so that Momoka can tweak her earth jutsu into being.. well, usable, as she does not have much in the way of options. This build is cheaper than the other two so there is room to add another element without falling behind, perhaps something that can buff her Ranged Weapons like Wind or Lightning.
Hey Proper, I've got a question. Why the choice of resolve and physique at 50? I know they're useful for defense against some techniques, but if we're not going to hit the "extra mild" threshold, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to get more active abilities, like TH at 50 for Kenzou, or an anticipated good Earth technique for Momoka, to give proper use of Chakra in the 50s as well?
