I think its almost complete replacement of all parts save the subframes so its cost - 1/2 the cost of a miranda-A
I think the last part needed is the T3 core and T3 phasers so 2325.
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau ("To Boldly Go...")
- Thread starter UbeOne
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
I think the last part needed is the T3 core and T3 phasers so 2325.
But they aren't actually something we can do with a refit, I thought?
fasquardon
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If we need a combat ship within the next few years we should steal the Jaffa design. It can be converted to C5 S3 H2 L5 P1 D5 fairly easily (+5sr, no module required) and can have a module added for +1C easily enough.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
FYI, I would rely more on the officially given numbers rather than Briefvoice's spreadsheet, because the official numbers are essentially "deployable" + "in repair" + "in refit", while BV's is more "deployable" + "in repair". I suspect that the same applies to the numbers from intel reports.
That said, the Starfleet numbers in the MWCD look a bit off as well. For ex, it correctly has total # Centaurs as 16 as of right after 2322.Q1 SYO commissionings, but still has total # Renaissances at 12 (the 2321 EOY #) instead of 14 (the 2322.Q1 SYO post-commissioning #). It's also apparently still counting Stargazer in its total # Excelsiors of 23.
By my reckoning, our 2322.Q1 total C is 402, and our 2322.Q2 total C is 412.
I'd also heavily caution against relying on fleet totals from even more than 2 years ago, because our 2319.Q4 total C was 296, and we've jumped more than 100 C since then. We know the Cardassians were just completing a round of shipyard building and were less than halfway through refits in that 2319.Q4 intel report.
Then there's also my usual warnings about relying on only sum of C stats for comparative purposes.
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A refit miranda-B for 2325 intended if we only refit blooded and better ships:
Miranda D5 refit
C[3.01] S[3.06] H[2.10] L[4.01] P[3.26] D[4.99] | [69.51]br [54.00]sr | O[0.85] E[1.38] T[1.58] | [1 11/12]years
Power[90.91/93.80] Internal[593.10/600.00] Tactical[134.75/210.00] Operations[127.50/150.00] Hull[22.00/90.00] Engineering[132.25/150.00] Warp Core[86.60/120.00]
To expensive for a general refit but the D5 would make the blooded miranda's useful as a responder for a long time.
Miranda D5 refit
C[3.01] S[3.06] H[2.10] L[4.01] P[3.26] D[4.99] | [69.51]br [54.00]sr | O[0.85] E[1.38] T[1.58] | [1 11/12]years
Power[90.91/93.80] Internal[593.10/600.00] Tactical[134.75/210.00] Operations[127.50/150.00] Hull[22.00/90.00] Engineering[132.25/150.00] Warp Core[86.60/120.00]
To expensive for a general refit but the D5 would make the blooded miranda's useful as a responder for a long time.
They do, but forgot the usual disclaimer, with the T4 replicator this design will get one more D.
I have not done the math but it includes a new computer core at 7SR and new nacelles at 8SR and new phasers, short range sensors, impulse drive sickbays, and warp core parts.
I keeps about 14SR worth of the miranda-A parts and that will make this a 35SR refit
This is mostly because getting to 5D with 2325 tech on a miranda hull needs 2 H replicators and making room for those without reducing other stats takes a lot of changes.
miranda D5
MIranda-A
Sci-Fi - Starfleet Ship Design Bureau ("To Boldly Go...") | Page 177
Doing the same refit once we have isoliniar cores can be done for a few SR less as that version needs less parts for the same stats:
2325:
C[3.01] S[3.06] H[2.10] L[4.01] P[3.26] D[4.99] | [69.51]br [54.00]sr | O[0.85] E[1.38] T[1.58] | [1 11/12]years
Iso:
C[3.04] S[3.15] H[2.14] L[4.00] P[3.32] D[5.04] | [68.53]br [52.25]sr | O[0.83] E[1.37] T[1.60] | [1 11/12]years
Edit found a D5 refit that does not require a new computer core:
D5 cheaper
C[3.11] S[3.05] H[2.08] L[4.00] P[3.24] D[4.91] | [70.13]br [48.38]sr | O[0.89] E[1.59] T[1.61] | [1 11/12]years
Power[94.00/95.45] Internal[599.25/600.00] Tactical[126.50/210.00] Operations[135.50/150.00] Hull[22.00/90.00] Engineering[132.25/150.00] Warp Core[93.00/120.00]
with the T4 replicator this design will get one more D.
I have not done the math but it includes a new computer core at 7SR and new nacelles at 8SR and new phasers, short range sensors, impulse drive sickbays, and warp core parts.
I keeps about 14SR worth of the miranda-A parts and that will make this a 35SR refit
This is mostly because getting to 5D with 2325 tech on a miranda hull needs 2 H replicators and making room for those without reducing other stats takes a lot of changes.
miranda D5
MIranda-A
Sci-Fi - Starfleet Ship Design Bureau ("To Boldly Go...") | Page 177
Doing the same refit once we have isoliniar cores can be done for a few SR less as that version needs less parts for the same stats:
2325:
C[3.01] S[3.06] H[2.10] L[4.01] P[3.26] D[4.99] | [69.51]br [54.00]sr | O[0.85] E[1.38] T[1.58] | [1 11/12]years
Iso:
C[3.04] S[3.15] H[2.14] L[4.00] P[3.32] D[5.04] | [68.53]br [52.25]sr | O[0.83] E[1.37] T[1.60] | [1 11/12]years
Edit found a D5 refit that does not require a new computer core:
D5 cheaper
C[3.11] S[3.05] H[2.08] L[4.00] P[3.24] D[4.91] | [70.13]br [48.38]sr | O[0.89] E[1.59] T[1.61] | [1 11/12]years
Power[94.00/95.45] Internal[599.25/600.00] Tactical[126.50/210.00] Operations[135.50/150.00] Hull[22.00/90.00] Engineering[132.25/150.00] Warp Core[93.00/120.00]
with the T4 replicator this design will get one more D.
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20SR D5 miranda?
I think this 2325 refit is 20SR, D5 with T4 replicators
The new/replaced parts are:
2 L T3 phasers,
1 L T3 secondary phasers,
1 H T4 short range sensors,
2 more shield generators,
2 more secondary shield generators
2 H T4 sickbays
1 L T3 Hull
1 L T3 nav deflector
1 L T2 nacelles
2 H T4 replicators
2 L T2 Fuel & Matter Stores
2 L T3 Warp core
2 L T3 injectors
All other parts are the same as the Miranda-A and 1/2 of the value of the removed parts gets the cost under 20SR i hope.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Never is a long time. We though we wouldn't new-build any Miranda As, either.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
We build new Mir As because we needed more gunboats. Mir Bs are basically discount Comets instead, so there is little reason not to build those if we need more of that kind of ship.
Also the Jaffa project is coming up. We will almost certainly have access to it, so we should have a modern small combat frigate design handy in case of war.
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Was thinking about the LE explorer for 2325 and had the idea to make it a fast responder that can handle events by making a D10 version.
We can build one wave of these in our 2Mt yards before we finish the HC cruiser prototype and get 2 waves done if we delay the cruiser program to wait for iso cores.
We are currently building 1Mt frigates in those yards and i think building these instead would be worth researching them.
D10 responder
C[8.10] S[8.08] H[5.00] L[8.04] P[8.26] D[9.59] | [184.98]br [139.60]sr | O[3.67] E[3.73] T[3.25] | [3 8/12]years
Power[208.36/209.57] Internal[1797.85/1800.00] Tactical[358.25/360.00] Operations[436.75/450.00] Hull[167.00/180.00] Engineering[371.75/450.00] Warp Core[194.10/270.00]
D10 with T4 replicators
We can build one wave of these in our 2Mt yards before we finish the HC cruiser prototype and get 2 waves done if we delay the cruiser program to wait for iso cores.
We are currently building 1Mt frigates in those yards and i think building these instead would be worth researching them.
D10 responder
C[8.10] S[8.08] H[5.00] L[8.04] P[8.26] D[9.59] | [184.98]br [139.60]sr | O[3.67] E[3.73] T[3.25] | [3 8/12]years
Power[208.36/209.57] Internal[1797.85/1800.00] Tactical[358.25/360.00] Operations[436.75/450.00] Hull[167.00/180.00] Engineering[371.75/450.00] Warp Core[194.10/270.00]
D10 with T4 replicators
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Enormous overlap with the HC project. Not worth two designs.
While 'canon' Starfleet was quite prepared to do limited runs of ships designs (refer to the original Galaxy production run - 6 ships built, 6 frames made and put in storage against future need), we generally aren't going to complete a design where we expect to build less than 20 of the class, even though we are significantly smaller than 'canon'.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Well... we can do limited design runs if a role is critical enough to warrant a new design yet uncommon enough that we don't need that many of such ships.
That's the idea behind the P-Kepler/P-Rennie/P-whatever variants, after all. We don't need that many of them, but they're bound to be incredibly useful in the few task forces we assign them to.
Really, Enerael hit the nail on the head. There's too much overlap. If we design the LE, and then a couple year's later, we design a very similar HC (either the less expensive smaller version or the higher stats bigger version), the Council is going to ask us very pointed questions with very good reason. (Especially if somehow turns out that the new "explorer" turns out to be smaller than the "cruiser" - now that would invite ridicule.) What tactical gap is this filling?
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't see the reason to build a stopgap LE, because I don't see the reason not to just design a new cruiser in the first place. Unless it's super worth waiting an extra year or two after phaser arrays finish, there's no need to not start the cruiser project going right then.
Building a cruiser in 2325 means making it with T2 subframes because we are still working on researching those and have not started on the T3 cruiser subframes. For explorers have researched all T3 subframes save combat and we can complete that one in 2325.
Statswise the LE is H5 CSLP8 and D9 or D10 depending on the version and 1800t
The cruiser is H4 CLP7 and D6 if we wait for the subframes in 2327 and 1500t
But if we wait for the T3 cruiser subframes we might as well wait for iso cores and that makes the gap large enough to do a LE between 2325 and the cruiser.
We can also research 3 techs to speed up shipbuilding once we have 2330s Construction Techniques and i expect us to go for the one increasing the build speed of ambassadors first that will boost the LE as well.
With D10 and the explorer bonus to response rolls its a heavy response specialist and the planned cruiser is a cheaper slightly lower stats generalist.
Statswise the LE is H5 CSLP8 and D9 or D10 depending on the version and 1800t
The cruiser is H4 CLP7 and D6 if we wait for the subframes in 2327 and 1500t
But if we wait for the T3 cruiser subframes we might as well wait for iso cores and that makes the gap large enough to do a LE between 2325 and the cruiser.
We can also research 3 techs to speed up shipbuilding once we have 2330s Construction Techniques and i expect us to go for the one increasing the build speed of ambassadors first that will boost the LE as well.
With D10 and the explorer bonus to response rolls its a heavy response specialist and the planned cruiser is a cheaper slightly lower stats generalist.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Basically the only reason that we would do both a LE and HC would be to do a HiLo mix. So the cruiser is a <3yr 1500kt generalist, preferably as cheap as possible, and the LE is a 4yr 1800kt generalist with higher stats.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Explorers benefit from flat Q reduction the least. Pretty sure that we will go after cruiser and frigate techs first.
There is no need for D10. An all 7 statline will succeed at pretty much everything already, and what it cant do Ambassadors can. Adding more stats has minimal effect, and we need many more ships.
Good to know, but costs are a very important part of a ships design, do share them if you want others to consider these.
There is always something to wait for. And we can refit most things later.
Edit:
Yeah, but is the difference in stats enough to build two designs at this time? And what roles would they have?
As I see it, we have Rennie A for the light generalist role, HC/Excelsior for the medium one, and Ambassador for heavy. Not much space for anything else, unless we decide to build cruiser or explorer specialists for some reason.
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What do you think of this design for a HiLo mix?
A 2325 3 year cruiser:
2325 cruiser
C[7.09] S[7.09] H[4.06] L[7.05] P[6.95] D[6.60] | [159.87]br [116.21]sr | O[3.75] E[4.77] T[3.42] | [3 ]years
Power[196.36/218.33] Internal[1496.70/1500.00] Tactical[306.30/375.00] Operations[373.25/375.00] Hull[145.00/225.00] Engineering[245.25/300.00] Warp Core[196.90/300.00]
T4 replicators will give it P7 and D7
And the LE we do 5-10 years later with newer tech like the iso core, T3 nacelles, T4 shields, T4 hull and other parts we have by then.
Just noticed where completing the 1050t frigate hull next year and decided to base a generalist frigate on it(2330 tech)
Frigate 2330
C[6.04] S[6.04] H[3.08] L[6.01] P[5.09] D[6.30] | [114.63]br [88.04]sr | O[2.06] E[2.92] T[2.91] | [2 6/12]years
Power[152.26/175.82] Internal[1044.25/1050.00] Tactical[199.30/472.50] Operations[269.00/367.50] Hull[77.00/157.50] Engineering[184.25/262.50] Warp Core[169.70/210.00]
Frigate 2325
C[6.11] S[6.14] H[3.32] L[5.01] P[5.00] D[6.33] | [114.38]br [85.54]sr | O[2.20] E[3.50] T[2.94] | [2 6/12]years
Power[144.83/176.25] Internal[1041.75/1050.00] Tactical[170.80/472.50] Operations[269.00/367.50] Hull[77.00/157.50] Engineering[210.25/262.50] Warp Core[169.70/210.00]
-1L and +1E but can be build 5 years sooner.
Frigate 2330
C[6.04] S[6.04] H[3.08] L[6.01] P[5.09] D[6.30] | [114.63]br [88.04]sr | O[2.06] E[2.92] T[2.91] | [2 6/12]years
Power[152.26/175.82] Internal[1044.25/1050.00] Tactical[199.30/472.50] Operations[269.00/367.50] Hull[77.00/157.50] Engineering[184.25/262.50] Warp Core[169.70/210.00]
Frigate 2325
C[6.11] S[6.14] H[3.32] L[5.01] P[5.00] D[6.33] | [114.38]br [85.54]sr | O[2.20] E[3.50] T[2.94] | [2 6/12]years
Power[144.83/176.25] Internal[1041.75/1050.00] Tactical[170.80/472.50] Operations[269.00/367.50] Hull[77.00/157.50] Engineering[210.25/262.50] Warp Core[169.70/210.00]
-1L and +1E but can be build 5 years sooner.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Ugh. We meet again.
Ok, time for a confession. Where in the name of Q are the stat and cost totals in this? I keep trying to figure it out and failing.
And what role would it have? For succeeding at everything we have the Ambassadors, for succeeding at almost everything we have Excelsiors/HCs. What role would a ship in between them have?
The only reasons to design a new LE that I can see is the need for more Heavy Metal, the gap between HCs and Ambassadors performace growing too large, and rising event DCs/tiers of success needing something better for the "solve almost everything" role.
This is a Comet refit with better tech and less D.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
A useful quote:
Btw, do we have a name for the HC project?
We will need to redefine some profiles.
Btw, do we have a name for the HC project?