I like the Executive Order series- its the sort of 'contingencies for every situation' thing militaries actually do. The idea that 66 was just slipped in there makes sense, as does the chips- Order 66 is there to provide justification for why the clones acted as they did, and the chips were to make sure the plan worked. Neat and tidy.
 
NJO Retrosepct Book 1: Vector Prime
And the first in the 'Kylar Reads the NJO books'.

Vector Prime Thoughts
So, finished my read through, and honestly? Vector Prime is pretty solid as an EU book. It's not going to win any prizes for best of EU, but the characters are well done, the tech is pretty well handled and even the big one, Chewbacca's death, wasn't badly handled for what it is.

Digging in a bit more, Vector Prime is a start of the war story, setting up what the peace before the war feels like, along with the characters before the war. This is juxtaposed against the Vong bringing their schemes into being, providing an undercurrent of menace and a promise that soon, nothing will be the same anymore.

The first half of the book is definitely the stronger part. The characters and their interactions are almost as well handled as I've seen out of EU books: from Anakin, Han and Chewies interactions over breaking the Falcon (again), to everyone dealing with Mara's terminal illness, the characters work in a way I've found all to rare in the EU. Even the philosophical debate on where the Jedi Order should go and what it should be is fascinating, and something I wish had been dug into more- there's enough plot there to power it's own series.

The Vong also get a solid introduction here. Nom Anor's cynical manipulation of a disenfranchised people's grievances for his own benefit hits a little too close to home these days, but it's hard to fault a book published a decade ago for that. The Vong also manage to mostly come off as creepy and disturbing more than trying to hard or plot shielded morons. In particular, @Ser_Serendipity was pretty on the mark with his description of the scientist base subplot- which is basically an inverted perspective of the 'isolated base, and there is something killing us all', to the point that Mara assumes some experiment had gone horribly wrong/right when they show up to investigate- which if this was a video game is exactly what I would assume :p.

The second half of the book is rougher: there are more idiot balls, people that aren't Han and Anakin don't react enough to Chewbacca's death (their reactions were well done though) and there is a little too much emphasis on how dangerous the Vong are. That said, it does what it sets out to do- establish the tone for a darker story, where people will get hurt, characters might die, and even if the heroes win, the cost will be high.

Regarding Chewbacca's death, it's not as well done as Han's in TFA, but that one is probably going down as one of the best done death scenes ever, so stiff competition. I do think it was a fitting send off for the old walking carpet, but. But. It was also a death scene meant to set the tone for what is to come: this is going to be a war story, where characters might just die as collateral with no really character motivation behind it. And that's not really what Star Wars has been about or like. It's a well done death scene for what it is, but I don't think people were to thrilled with the direction it was pointing- this wasn't Yoda's death, which signalled the final death of the old Jedi, leaving the fate of the galaxy solely in Luke's hands. This was a death that signalled a major shift in how the EU did things, for better and for worse. I think people might have been, to some extent, expecting something more along the lines of Han's death: a deeply personal moment for all involved, not heroism in the face of certain, impersonal doom.

Overall, it was a decent book. It wasn't boring, or riddled with basic inconsistencies, and it did an excellent job of setting the tone for the NJO- possibly too good a job, given how different that was from what had come before. Good side of average is pretty good way to describe it.

The Out of Character Corner
This is dedicated to @RogueIce, and will be looking at how OOC the various characters are from YJK.

Jania feels the most solid- maybe a little more centered then she was during her YJK years, but it's been a year or so (having a hard time pinning dates) and she's been Padawaning under Mara. What she is here isn't that out of line with what might change.

Anakin… OK, I have no idea what his prior characterization was, but he was 11 in the last series that featured him, and is 15 here- that alone is enough to justify most personality shifts.

Jacen is by far and away the most divergent. YJK Jacen was a (bad) joker, boundary pusher, pet collector and explorer. In another time, he probably would have wound up in the Jedi Exploration Corps. In Vector Prime, he is a lot more philosophical, with a heavy duty focus on the spiritual side of the Force. The latter apparently had been part of his characterization for a while: he had always been presented as the most 'in tune' with the Force of the siblings- unless Jania was flying. But he is very different from what he was during the YJK years. You could make the argument that ravelling with Luke and basically helping him run the Jedi could explain the changes, but it's a little much.

Overall, B-, with Jacen dragging it down generally.
 
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I'm probably never gonna read that book (not for any reason specific to it, just don't feel like checking out the star wars books in general) but I'll always be grateful for it providing the amazing out of context bit of information of "hey, did you know one time Chewbacca got killed by a moon?"
 
Well here is a subject that won't end in a rant. What is your favorite character that was only shown in the EU.

My favorite would have to be don't be pissed Galen Merek from TFU. My opinion

Bit of a toss-up really.

My main three candidates are Gara Petothel, Lara Notsil, and maybe Kirney Slane.

Kell Tainer was pretty strong in his first book but he sort of cooled off and went into the background after his major character arc was resolved, so it probably comes to one of those three. Kettch, while awesome, is a little too fictional to work.

Or is he?
 
I'm using Wookiepedia as my primary source here, so usually grain of salt applies. But apparently he was involved in the WEG module that first introduced them, and then he brought them to the wider EU in a big way in the Hand of Thrawn books. He was pretty involved in their initial creation and later use, regardless.

Shutting it down no. I did some quick checks and it turns out they were publishing books across the timeline into 2013, and then 2014 was the Disney takeover.So I was wrong there.

But Fate of the Jedi generally seems to be were people got off the long running EU train- assuming they didn't bail during the Legacy books. I'll admit I haven't actually read the Fate books- Legacy broke my interest in that part of the EU for a while, though I didn't know why at the time (this was before I really started becoming critical of works- its only in retrospect and having read a few solid reviews of the Legacy books I can put a finger on why those books left me feeling discontent). That said, most of what I've read on them shows a disjointed mess of a story, and while Traviss not writing for that series could only have improved things, it still had Troy Dennings writing, which is... not confidence inspiring shall we say. Overall, your one of the few people I've ever run into with much positive to say about Fate of the Jedi. It's probably more fair to call it the straw that broke the camels back for a lot of people, particularly after Legacy.

(At this point I have no real plans to read Fate- most of what I do know suggests large portions of it would drive me bonkers lore wise, I have no interest in the actual plot of the series, and most of the characters from the NJO I actually like and was interested in basically got drained of everything interesting over the Dark Nest Trilogy and Legacy, not to mention much of the main focus is on Luke and Ben, neither of whom I really found compelling characters by that point. I'd honestly do a reread of the NJO first- yeah, the Vong are dumb, but there were some really good stories in there, and it did wonders to sell the whole next generation thing, before Dark Nest and Legacy shitted that away.)

Eh. This is... not entirely fair. While it's true they didn't make the misstep of the mega arc series that were Del Rey's disaster, they had their fair share of stinkers- Children of the Jedi and The Crystal Star come to mind, as does The Black Fleet Crisis . Del Rey also pumped out a completely ridiculous number of books, including a lot of the books I consider my absolute favorites from the EU- actually, most of them. They also presided over many of the books I would happily toss in an incinerator from the EU. Overall, Del Rey tended to have better highs, but its lows were pretty abyssal. Bantum was a bit more even quality wise, but people have mostly forgotten its disasters (or avoided them to begin with) and its one mega arc was the X-Wing series, which was the great success story of that era.
Fate of the Jedi reads as bad fanfiction and a waste of good ideas, and I say this as someone who found Legacy of the Force more or less to be readable if not good.

Not since Order 66 did I ever think "this isn't canon. This can't be canon." in the way those novels did, and I definitely regretted buying them in a way I didn't for even Order 66.

on the force:

"...you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean; it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth - if any truth is ever simple - is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."
 
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Fate of the Jedi reads as bad fanfiction and a waste of good ideas, and I say this as someone who found Legacy of the Force more or less to be readable if not good.
Nah. Good fanfiction, at the least. Reread Outcast earlier today out of nostalgia and it held up better than I remembered. Some nicely choreographed fight scenes in there.
 
Nah. Good fanfiction, at the least. Reread Outcast earlier today out of nostalgia and it held up better than I remembered. Some nicely choreographed fight scenes in there.
I read the one with Dromund Kaas and the creepy Ben-Vestara drek.

Then the one where Saba murders her fellow Council master because he was in the way and everyone is okay with this.

This is not how Jedi should act or be written as acting on the whole, least of all the reformed Jedi Order that's meant to be the bright hope for the future.

No, the ideas might have been good but the execution was horrific. A waste of good potential.

I'm bitter we got Fate of the Jedi but not the Jaina Solo series we deserved with her showing her credentials as Sword of the Jedi.

...I have a soft spot for competent, zealous knight figures and her tagline speaks to me.

We never got to see this happen.

"I name you the Sword of the Jedi. You are like tempered steel, purposeful and razor-keen. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends. Yours is a restless life, and never shall you know peace, though you shall be blessed for the peace that you bring to others. Take comfort in the fact that, though you stand tall and alone, others take shelter in the shadow that you cast."
 
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Pretty sure Kenth commits suicide while Saba tries to talk him down.
No, that was straight up murder by Saba, done out of convenience and no amount of mental gymnastics IC are going to change that.

Jedi save people. By definition, compassion for life is what a Jedi's supposed to have. For a character to not choose to save someone Because They Were In the Way Of The Mission and for the narrative to not treat that as something monstrous on the part of the Jedi in their role as a Jedi...

Yeah.

Probably the worst moment since Luke Skywalker said he reserved compassion for those that deserved it. When his own Mandalorian allies were dying.

Gee, I wonder why they sided with Daala?
 
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No, that was straight up murder by Saba, done out of convenience and no amount of mental gymnastics IC are going to change that.

Jedi save people. By definition, compassion for life is what a Jedi's supposed to have. For a character to not choose to save someone Because They Were In the Way Of The Mission and for the narrative to not treat that as something monstrous on the part of the Jedi in their role as a Jedi...

Yeah.
It's very easy to argue that as a conflict of attachment and necessity. Jedi save people: if the hanger door doesn't open, a whole lot of people were going to die. Hamner chose to try and keep the doors shut, even at the cost of his own life. Saba doesn't choose "not to save him." He outright refuses her help. Multiple times.
 
Jedi don't let someone die in front of them out of some moral calculus and "what ifs". That sort of pragmatic, detached, heartless logic- and yes, it is heartless even in the face of a peer, comrade, and friend doing something foolhardy- is something that goes against what Jedi are supposed to be like.

That scene is a Jedi Master letting the acting leader of the Council and fellow Jedi Master die just so she and her fellow Jedi can use some X-wings.

I couldn't see Obi Wan ever doing what Saba did, or even Mace Windu. Hell, even Anakin would probably have made the right choice there, as in DON'T LET SOMEONE DIE IN FRONT OF YOU.

Compassion for life, negotiation, and surrender? Finding a third solution? Not happening in Luke's order, apparently. Even basic decency's beyond them. And the narrative doesn't address this at all as A Big Problem with the whole lot of them.

Idiot children with lightsabers is sounding more and more like an apt description...of Luke's "New Jedi Order". A good few decades after they lost any excuse for still having that sort of problem.

And the less said about the grand finale with Jedi hitmen, the better.

"Surrender or die. Decide now."
"The Jedi Order."

This is wrong on so, so many levels. And before you cite Jedi Shadows, there's a reason those guys aren't meant to be representative, or even usually assassins.
 
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I couldn't see Obi Wan ever doing what Saba did, or even Mace Windu. Hell, even Anakin would probably have made the right choice there, as in DON'T LET SOMEONE DIE IN FRONT OF YOU.

Compassion for life, negotiation, and surrender? Finding a third solution? Not happening in Luke's order, apparently. Even basic decency's beyond them. And the narrative doesn't address this at all as A Big Problem with the whole lot of them.
Never thought I'd be the one doing ethical calculus. Usually I'm attacking the people who do.

Surrender is not an option; the last time they tried negotiating, a teenager ambassador was shot dead.

Think about it. Saba refuses to let Kenth kill himself. What then? They stay locked in the Temple until the siege breaks it open and even more people end up dead? What's the plan? It's easy to say "find the third option!" but sometimes you just have to admit that someone like Hamner is responsible for his own life.

This is in the book. Believe me, I thought long and hard about that scene. It's supposed to be something terrible: one last breaking point. And it works.
 
Never thought I'd be the one doing ethical calculus. Usually I'm attacking the people who do.

Surrender is not an option; the last time they tried negotiating, a teenager ambassador was shot dead.

Think about it. Saba refuses to let Kenth kill himself. What then? They stay locked in the Temple until the siege breaks it open and even more people end up dead? What's the plan? It's easy to say "find the third option!" but sometimes you just have to admit that someone like Hamner is responsible for his own life.

This is in the book. Believe me, I thought long and hard about that scene. It's supposed to be something terrible: one last breaking point. And it works.
I'm not talking surrender to Daala. And frankly, that was the Mandalorians. Daala's erratic but she was, allegedly, a politician.

I'm saying surrender to Kenth. A fellow Jedi.

Also, it's the Temple. I don't buy that the hanger was the only way out- or anything but the most convenient- or that the circumstances justified cold-blooded (ha ha) murder, especially given later events when the Temple was breached. If the circumstances led to conflict, it would have been in self-defense against an aggressor and not cold blooded murder over a few starships.

In the moment, given a choice between saving someone's life and potentially being able to save people down the road, just that much more efficiently? The Jedi answer is to save that life, every time. Morality out of universe aside, if one thing's clear in Star Wars logic, it's that "let him die when I can save him" is Not A Light Side Choice.

So what Saba did was completely and utterly wrong by Jedi standards and the story refuses to acknowledge that fact meaningfully. It was wrong to the point where it shouldn't have even happened, but that's half of the character moments in FOTJ in a nutshell.

It was a breaking point alright: of suspension of disbelief, of Saba being any sort of Jedi worth the name, and the integrity of every Jedi that went along with this and nodded at Saba. And given that cast includes Luke Skywalker, paragon of the light, that's kindaaaa a problem.
 
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Yeah, I know. Then what? There's artillery pounding on the walls of the Temple right at that moment. If you're not opening the hanger, what's the plan?
Barabels had their tunnels. Pounding isn't breached. The hanger was simply convenient...and they're Jedi. Why is a blast door supposed to stop them for longer than it takes to get the council in a circle to meditate?

Failing all else, they didn't murder their own Council comrade and now have a chance to figure something else out. Even if it's using negotiations as a way to get some Jedi out the temple.

Hell, they're Jedi. "Wing it and trust the will of the Force" is actually a viable tactic for them and certainly less scummy than "just let him die, LAUNCH THE FIGHTERSSSSSSSS".

At the end of the day, that novel was the one where a Jedi Master is portrayed as calmly letting her friend and fellow Master- someone she's known for years- fall to his death out of convenience.
 
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Barabels had their tunnels. Pounding isn't breached. The hanger was simply convenient...and they're Jedi. Why is a blast door supposed to stop them for longer than it takes to get the council in a circle to meditate?

Failing all else, they didn't murder their own Council comrade and now have a chance to figure something else out. Even if it's using negotiations as a way to get some Jedi out the temple.

Hell, they're Jedi. "Wing it and trust the will of the Force" is actually a viable tactic for them and certainly less scummy than "just let him die, LAUNCH THE FIGHTERSSSSSSSS".
No plan, then. It's not just their personal safety that's reliant on the fighters, too.
 
So, umm the actually scene:

"It was with the Force that she caught him, of course... Saba peered over the edge and saw him about twenty meters below, upside down and-like any good jedi-still holding his light saber. She reached out to him in the Force, assuring him she would not let him drop, that whatever their differences they were still Jedi Masters and would one day soon return to being friends.

"Hammer twitched around until he could look up and meet her gaze. There was no longer anger in his steely eyes only sadness and forgiveness ... and unyielding resolve. Saba's heart started to climb toward her throat. With no hope of making herself heard above the roaring of impatient Stealthxs, she reached out in the Force, begging her lost friend to see that he was beaten, to surrender to the will of the other masters and not makje her choose between him and the skywalkers-between his life and her duty.

"But Jedi do not surrender and they never give up. Hammer locked his lightsaber blade on, then looked away from Saba and sent it spinning up toward the relay box.

"'No, Kenth!' Even Saba could not hear the pain-the anguish-in her voice. 'No!'

"Saba watched the lightsaber spin upward long enough to be certain it was being directed through the force , them reluctantly reached out in the force-and found herself fighting for control. The struggle continued for a span of perhaps three heart beats, then Hammer smashed into the deck below. "

That was 100% suicide. I get the impression he could have saved himself if he wasn't fighting for the lightsaber and of course wasn't even in danger if he hadn't created the conflict between himself and Saba, whom was keeping him alive and direly wanting this to end and everything to go back to the way it was as they were friends.

Edit: Against my better judgment I am editing this do to Ugolino claiming I am manipulating the story in a post he edited eight hours after it was made and fifteen or so minutes after he claimed to be "done" in a later post two pages or so ahead.

He claims I left out something vital, now I admit their was one word missing and the reason for this is that what I posted is exactly 250 words. I chose specifically to capture what happened during the scene without tripping over the rather strict rules on taking from copywrite works used on this forum and this followed the rules I found to the letter. The word I removed was exactly one at the chapters end, "Launch."

You might notice that word changes nothing as it was exactly why they were fighting: Hamner was trying to stop the launch and Saba was attempting to keep it going, heck the part I posted even mentions the engines were actually on, so loud they stopped communication between characters not near to each other and he was attempting to shut the bay doors to stop the launch.

I honestly don't even know what Ungolino thinks this word changes. They were launching at the start of the scene and the fight was to stop the launch. They were launching to aide their allies against the Sith, a siege of the temple they were launching from even makes it clear they might have had a limited chance to launch.
 
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Rule 3 Violation: Over course of argument, not single post.
It doesn't matter if he threw the saber or not or was committing suicide-by-Jedi out of principle, Saba made a conscious decision to let him go splat.

She murdered him by apathy.

EDIT: Also lololol at cutting out the context where Saba actively launches the ships right afterwards.
 
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It doesn't matter if he threw the saber or not or was committing suicide-by-Jedi out of principle, Saba made a conscious decision to let him go splat.

She murdered him by apathy.

Funny, it doesn't actually say she let go. I read it as she was still trying to hold him while fighting and lost her grip in the conflict. Btw: "Even Saba could not hear the pain-the anguish-in her voice." is the opposite of apathy.
 
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